NP: Doubles OU Stage 2 - Monster | Mence is banned | Hoopa not Banned

[makiri]

makiri, I'm a bit confused on your reasoning and I was wondering if you could elaborate on one thing. At the beginning of your post, you said that "the ladder sucks" (I agree) and said that the "voting qualification method sucks." Yet, you based your reasoning off of ladder matches. Did you ever get to go up against some more competent players using salamence? Honestly I'm just a little curious. Also, how would you change the suspecting process?

I think the players on the ladder suck. There is no challenge to qualifying because of that. You get players who are going to be woefully underqualified to make a decision, making this decision because of the skill level of the ladder. I qualified in just over 2 hours, yet I am able to make a decision that affects the next several months at the very least. Just even looking through the voter confirmation thread you see people who are barely cracking a 50% win percentage qualifying to vote. I don't think an average player should be making a decision about whether to remove a Pokemon or not. If someone with almost no metagame knowledge can come in and get voter requirements in a couple of hours the system is flawed and they should not be making decisions on the ban list.

That is not to say I didn't have competent opponents, I played several people currently ranked in the top 25 or so. I base my commentary about Salamence almost strictly on those games and other personal experience.

Ways it can be improved? At the moment you can conceivably get voter qualificationss without ever seeing or using Salamence. Why would anyone who never played with or against be allowed to vote on Salamence? Things need to change a couple ways, making getting qualification harder and make Salamence relevant. You can make qualifying harder in a number of ways, maintaining a certain win percentage, raising the COIL requirement to something much higher, taking only a certain percentage of the top people on the ladder, etc. It needs to be drastically harder to qualify for voting than it is right now. Additionally you need to make Salamence present in a players games. Either by making them use it or play against it a number of times, a player should not be allowed to vote on banning something if they never played with or against it, where is the actual practical knowledge coming from instead of plain old theorymon.

 

[Laga]

hi makiri

The council mainly chooses voters based on discussion posts in this thread. Let's call this the banter filter. The banter filter is the only solution (and a fairly effective one, imo) to the problem you talk about that can be immediately applied, as fixing the ladder's shittyness to make reqs harder is a lifetime project. By the way, stating opinions with cynic wording isn't very good banter in my eyes, but that's just me.

 

[Not Canadian]

makiri is only correct to a point

there are people on the reqs thread with screenshots with lame GXE or w/l ratio, but 2400 COIL regardless

the thing is, though, there's a good chance these people aren't going to be made able to vote. what did they make? "umm i just got reqs lol, look at my calc that uses this 252/252/4 spread and my cookie-cutter argument about one facet of mence that doesn't really really address matchup, usage, or metagame shifts, so i'm voting this please give me posting reqs"

ladder is pretty much a crapshoot in regards to this kind of thing. while it's not really an optimal situation it's going to take stupidly long to change the way people go about laddering. what do we do, force everyone to have mence on their team? shoot, now mence is on every team, everyone uses it it's so good must be broken, gee what about its matchups against every other mega we haven't looked into that one. w/l ratios / coil won't change the fact that people simply do not use mence on the ladder, whether out of sheer laziness to build teams or overhyping what might or might not be a threat -- the latter being a bad thing, since that means they're just going into the test with a predisposition towards banning it instead of giving it a chance.

i guess that's where the posting reqs come in, and while the element of subjectivity might raise some eyebrows in the choosing process thank God for these reqs. sure, it might be a crude way to try to cull voting pool it definitely works. while ladder is definitely a sub-optimal way to gather information about mence whether you use it yourself or not, it's not like it's some sort of be-all and end-all, hell or high water thing you have to go through to learn shit about mence, granted your options are kind of limited because like you said theorymon doesn't really cut it, but there's tours and the like -- if all else fails, you can always go around looking for a good player or two who's willing to take a few minutes out of their day, doubles is pretty cool like that. smh i was playing a room tour just now and no one used mega mence :^(

the point i made in my last post though about mence though, i guess still stands. my opinion hasn't changed much about it: its stats are good, but i felt it was hindered by its moveset and occasionally by its weaknesses, so it wasn't really a question of mence's power vs how things react to mence's power. last test i didn't really feel it, redirection combos actually fall flat imo against good players. now that we've demonstrated its standalone use to support other mons instead of being supported and carrying the team, that's probably the drastic difference in this suspect. has the metagame really shifted all that much? that's not for me to say. what i feel though is that whatever has shifted, it probably hasn't affected mence all that much.

same meta, same monster, but radically new strategies and new ways to put a wrecking ball to use -- that might be a problem.

 

[Firestorm]

makiri is pretty correct and it would be hypocritical to say he's not qualified to vote based on his tone given Stratos' post was just as dismissive and cynical and he's the DOU Co-Leader according to his banner thingy. In any case, I just want it to be clear that anyone writing multiple paragraphs based on their ladder experience are speaking out of their ass. It doesn't matter whether they're using Salamence or not in this case. I saw one (1) Mega Salamence in my entire time laddering. I saw many terrible teams that quite definitely don't care if Salamence is in the format let alone any other Pokemon.

And you know what? That's a problem. You don't have a competitive metagame and it has nothing to do with ruleset. I question what led to a ban in the first place if barely anyone plays the format on a competitive level. "Challenge others in the SmogDubs room"? Are you serious? That's literally just like having testing partners. Your tournaments aren't enough of a sample size to call for a ban. This attitude towards the ladder by even the format's co-leader is disappointing given it's just admitting that nobody gives a shit about playing this format. Like makiri mentioned, you're supposed to actually think outside the box when teambuilding and not just give up and call for a ban if you're too lazy or incapable for building a team. Teambuilding is a puzzle. Chopping off parts of the pieces to make it fit shouldn't be the first option.

there are new players here

thats ok

but theres a lot you need to learn as a new player that you simply will not learn on the ladder. the first is that unlike in VGC, you have to pay legitimate consideration to switchins. It's not enough to say checks exist to something like Mega Mence if nothing can switch in safely. A typical VGC game might have one to two switches on each side, a typical doubles ou game can have ten to fifteen. all setup sweepers, mega mence included, benefit immensely from this; you can typically stop setup in vgc from team preview as long as you have a lead to beat it, but in doubles you more or less have to take into account a free turn that mega mence will get by coming in on things it can beat—this isnt hard because it beats a hell of a lot, and since it boosts speed it's impossible to check offensively so u cant let it set up at all. The only way to stop it from setting up is basically to play chicken with it and leave in things it ohkoes in the hopes you can cripple it if it goes for setup.

the second is that the ladder is utter garbage and will teach you nothing. frankly im not even sure why we do ladder reqs anymore. if you want to learn how the mence meta really plays you have to challenge people in the doubles ou room

Okay, so you've never actually played VGC at a competitive level so I'm not sure why you're spreading that there are one to two switches per side in a typical VGC game. There are fewer Pokemon in play which will lead to fewer switches and usually there are fewer turns. What you get is the ability to switch to something safer more often. That doesn't change that there are two Pokemon per side which means that switching out is still a lot less free than it is in a Singles environment because you need to take into account 8 moves instead of 4. It also doesn't change that you can cover your partner by taking care of a threat that it might not defeat otherwise. It also doesn't remove Protect to stall as a threat is taken care of.

If Salamence can get a free KO on something on the field, you should be able to cripple or knock it out that turn with your other Pokemon. Leaving something in where it can get a KO for free means you played into a terrible position. Trading a Pokemon for their Mega Pokemon is a trade in your favour. If it can knock out both Pokemon with Earthquake or Hyper Voice then you've done something seriously wrong with your team composition, EV spreads, or both. I'd also like to bring up that you have two slots to switch in your Pokemon and only one slot that can be targeted by Double Edge.

Salamence does not exist in a vacuum. Salamence isn't the only Pokemon with a partner. I'm not sure why you're putting yourself in a position where Salamence can come in for free with eight move slots available to you against a Pokemon weak to Ice, Dragon, Rock, and Fairy to run you over with a single target attack (which is all it has on what is currently considered its strongest set in SmogDubs) that is resisted by Steel, Rock, Electric. I'm not sure why you're building teams that don't have any of Icy Wind, Thunder Wave, Rock Slide, Intimidate, Hyper Voice, Follow Me, Choice Scarf, Tailwind, Trick Room, etc. to help keep Salamence in check.

Aside from assuming Mega Salamence always has support from a partner while you do not, I'm not sure why arguments assume it has the ability to have more than 510 EVs. If it maxes Attack, it loses on defenses and speed. If it invests in defenses, it loses in attack and or speed. If it invests... you see where I'm going here right? If it goes mixed, it needs to reduce damage for an attack or a defense by 10%. If it wants Earthquake, it has to give up Dragon Dance or Hyper Voice or Roost or...

 

[makiri]

The council mainly chooses voters based on discussion posts in this thread. Let's call this the banter filter. The banter filter is the only solution (and a fairly effective one, imo) to the problem you talk about that can be immediately applied, as fixing the ladder's shittyness to make reqs harder is a lifetime project. By the way, stating opinions with cynic wording isn't very good banter in my eyes, but that's just me.

That is a completely subjective way of going about things and while there are "tier leaders" for a reason, vote qualification should strive to be entirely objective.

I want to echo what Not Canadian and Firestorm are saying. Why does Salamence exist with a partner (most often Jirachi in examples) but the opponent is only allowed one Pokemon? I also want to reiterate that Kangaskhan stat I gave earlier, good offensive Pokemon will faceroll bad players, but the good players are a step ahead and ready to combat those faceroll Pokemon. There is a lot of room to maneuver around Salamence that people aren't taking advantage of or just ignoring. Having to adapt to a Pokemon does not mean it is inherently broken, it just means it is a strong Pokemon that you need to consider when building a team, much like when you consider Kangaskhan.

I used Hyper Voice Salamence and despite hitting both things it was kind of underwhelming. The best Salamence set only has single target moves and in that case it means it isn't attacking a partner Pokemon. Proper prediction and use of Protects could lead to Salamence being a worthless Pokemon at the end of the day. A lot of the arguments can go both ways for Salamence and I haven't seen a single compelling reason from the pro-ban posts about why it is actually broken. Some examples:

1. Salamence can just switch. Well yeah, so can you. If your matchup vs Mence is weak, switch to your Pokemon that can deal with it.

2. We don't want Pokemon like Thundurus or Sableye running around. Not sure why this is even an argument, let a metagame develop. Complaints about a shitty metagame are silly and completely self serving. You're also talking about a metagame where Scarf Landorus with Rock Slide is extremely popular already.

3. Salamence has lots of stats and does tons of damage. Well yeah, it is a Mega Pokemon. If you KO it your opponent lost one of their most important Pokemon. At the same time it doesn't bring anything silly like Wonderguard or ignore your opponent's Choice Scarfs.

Basically I urge you to let your metagame develop with it, the ladder makes it pretty abundantly clear that a proper test isn't actually happening. Let your good players take it to tournament matches and start to consider tech choices to deal with Mence. Manaphy286 brings up some great points on this topic. Last time Mence was banned Diancie was not even in the conversation but right now that is one of the best Pokemon overall and easily counters Mence. As I said let your meta develop and lead yourself to discovery of a meta that actually develops instead of banning something at the drop of a hat.

 

[BLOOD TOTEM]

Obviously I have limited experience with VGC so feel free to shit on me if everything I say here is wrong. I feel like there's a pretty key difference between VGC and Smogon Doubles that's been overlooked here. 6v6 Pokemon naturally leads for more opportunities to switch in, either during play, or in revenge after a kill than 4v4 Pokemon. Yes, there are still switches in VGC, and yes they carry weight. My point is, in Smogon Doubles, there is more opportunity to wear Pokemon down that are switching in with resisted hits. This means it's harder for Pokemon such as Thundurus, Rotom-W, and Diancie to check Mega Salamence.

I don't think Mega Diancie has made a particularly big impact on Mega Salamence a great deal. Salamence beats it on the switch in if it's Jolly Double Edge, or Return + Earthquake / Aqua Tail. Diamond Storm fails to OHKO and whilst Moonblast does OHKO, it fails to impact if Pokemon such as Jirachi or Amoonguss are on the field or even in the back.

1. Salamence can just switch. Well yeah, so can you. If your matchup vs Mence is weak, switch to your Pokemon that can deal with it.

Proper prediction and use of Protects could lead to Salamence being a worthless Pokemon at the end of the day.

The non Salamence user can just predict. Well yeah, so can you.
Shitty misrepresentations of arguments aside, you can't cite player skill and prediction as a check to Salamence.


Having two Pokemon on the field inevitably makes suspect discussion more convoluted. Arguments become circular as people point out that X combination can beat Y combination, but then the Y user points out that Z would beat X and so on. There's no 'correct' answer so we're forced to rely on our experiences, and probably, personal preferences and agendas. For example, my experience of using Mega Salamence points towards it being broken, but Makiri's experiences of it led to him believing it's fine.

 

[deoxys speed]

That is a completely subjective way of going about things and while there are "tier leaders" for a reason, vote qualification should strive to be entirely objective.

I want to echo what Not Canadian and Firestorm are saying. Why does Salamence exist with a partner (most often Jirachi in examples) but the opponent is only allowed one Pokemon? I also want to reiterate that Kangaskhan stat I gave earlier, good offensive Pokemon will faceroll bad players, but the good players are a step ahead and ready to combat those faceroll Pokemon. There is a lot of room to maneuver around Salamence that people aren't taking advantage of or just ignoring. Having to adapt to a Pokemon does not mean it is inherently broken, it just means it is a strong Pokemon that you need to consider when building a team, much like when you consider Kangaskhan.

I used Hyper Voice Salamence and despite hitting both things it was kind of underwhelming. The best Salamence set only has single target moves and in that case it means it isn't attacking a partner Pokemon. Proper prediction and use of Protects could lead to Salamence being a worthless Pokemon at the end of the day. A lot of the arguments can go both ways for Salamence and I haven't seen a single compelling reason from the pro-ban posts about why it is actually broken. Some examples:

1. Salamence can just switch. Well yeah, so can you. If your matchup vs Mence is weak, switch to your Pokemon that can deal with it.


Basically I urge you to let your metagame develop with it, the ladder makes it pretty abundantly clear that a proper test isn't actually happening. Let your good players take it to tournament matches and start to consider tech choices to deal with Mence. Manaphy286 brings up some great points on this topic. Last time Mence was banned Diancie was not even in the conversation but right now that is one of the best Pokemon overall and easily counters Mence. As I said let your meta develop and lead yourself to discovery of a meta that actually develops instead of banning something at the drop of a hat.

Everyone stresses that Mence has a partner in their arguments because that is what truly pushes it over the edge. It has such great options for team support that just shut down its counters unlike any other mon in doubles ou. Of course you have to prepare for the big threats while teambuilding but it comes to a point where its completely unreasonable how much you have to take a single mon into consideration while building. And with as few checks and counters as Mence has that just makes teambuilding stale and boring in my opinion.

Switch if your matchup is bad against Mence? Go into your Mega-Diancie and get 2HKOed by a double-edge, or even worse you give it a free turn to DD and let it roll through your team.

I do agree that we don't really learn much from the suspect ladder. At least for me I would rather see more suspect tours that determine your reqs for the future. Like if you finish top 8 or some shit that will give you the required reqs. I think that would eliminate a lot of the inexperienced/bad players from voting on important things like this.

 

[Transmuter]

I got ladder reqs a few days ago, and I just found the time to make a post here.

I feel like Mega Salamence is a bit too much for the current DOU metagame, it has a great pre-evo ability in Intimidate (which means you don't have to waste another slot in your team for an Intimidate user), it has great Speed, Attack and Defense stats which make it hard to OHKO or revenge kill. Physical super effective moves (like the popular Rock Slide) can't really do much to this thing and are pretty much free set up. Only things that threaten Mega Salamence are Special super effective moves (and even then, redirection just messes up with that, so only spread moves like Hyper Voice from Mega Gardevoir/Sylveon and Icy Wind/Blizzard would be effective)... and it doesn't really help that Mega Salamence has great Speed stat, and if it gets 1 DD up it outspeeds almost everything, so even the few mons that can threaten it get OHKOed before they can touch it. The only reliable way of beating Mega Salamence that I can think of, is Trick Room teams (or maybe even Tailwind). Speed control really messes up with it, because Speed is what makes it such a huge threat (Speed alongside its other amazing stats, but tbh if Speed was lacking it wouldn't be that big of a threat). Overall, I believe that Mega Salamence shouldn't be unbanned, because it has amazing offensive, defensive and speed stats, great movepool, reliable recovery in Roost, great set up move that complement its great attack and speed stats in Dragon Dance and as others have pointed out, it is so easy to support (bringing a Jirachi and/or an Excadrill with it is pretty much an unbeatable duo). So yea, if I'm eligible to vote, I'll be voting to keep it banned.

 

[tennisace]

can we all just cool it here and talk about mega salamence instead of talking about peoples opinions of the tier and its policies? the test ends in a couple days, obviously nothing is going to be changed w/r/t the process itself. if you have more comments on the actual process, the policy review forum is now open and top level to serve as a public venue for such discussions.

edit: i just deleted the last couple of off topic posts. im not going to go through the thread and censor out every little dig people made here. just, from here on out, keep the topic on megamence.

 

[Mizuhime]

ill just say it, next person to take a shit on someone gets infracted. You've been warned

 

[GRAND EMPRESS]

Well then. That was certainly something.

I'll peacefully say that though I agree Mega Salamence isn't broken and shouldn't be banned here, Those reasons really don't hold much water, my friend.

 

[TheFourthChaser]

YOU ALL SUCK ASS




Seriously though, I'll just drop my 2 cents right here. First off, I didn't play a single ladder game and you can stop reading there if that's enough for you.

I don't have an opinion on Mega Salamence exactly since I've never played a game of DOU with it but it seems to me the arguments always revolve around the partner as opposed to Mence itself. I think if something is actually broken the arguments shouldn't really need to revolve around the partner, ya know? We wouldn't be complaining about Kyogre because it had Pachirisu support or something. If what makes Mence really good is something like Jirachi what's stopping me from using Jirachi+Fairy? Even then we assume that both mons are out at the same time, which doesn't always happen.

One of the reasons I began to focus more on doubles than singles in the first place was because I feel it is inherent to doubles that things are less "broken" which allows for a metagame to further develop, kind of echoing what Paul is saying basically. In doubles one has a greater ability to play around things than in singles, there is less match up dependency. So, except in the case of something like Skymin (that thing is sooooooo stupid), I'm for allowing the metagame to develop in general and think it should apply to Salamence.

As for TOTEMO's point, I agree that is a big difference between DOU and VGC but you also have more team slots in order to check things and the ability to wear things down applies to the opponent as well. I'm unsure if this difference between bring 6 pick 4 and 6v6 is enough to give Mence such an advantage.

 

[Firestorm]

Obviously I have limited experience with VGC so feel free to shit on me if everything I say here is wrong. I feel like there's a pretty key difference between VGC and Smogon Doubles that's been overlooked here. 6v6 Pokemon naturally leads for more opportunities to switch in, either during play, or in revenge after a kill than 4v4 Pokemon. Yes, there are still switches in VGC, and yes they carry weight. My point is, in Smogon Doubles, there is more opportunity to wear Pokemon down that are switching in with resisted hits. This means it's harder for Pokemon such as Thundurus, Rotom-W, and Diancie to check Mega Salamence.

I don't think Mega Diancie has made a particularly big impact on Mega Salamence a great deal. Salamence beats it on the switch in if it's Jolly Double Edge, or Return + Earthquake / Aqua Tail. Diamond Storm fails to OHKO and whilst Moonblast does OHKO, it fails to impact if Pokemon such as Jirachi or Amoonguss are on the field or even in the back.

TFC already echoed my thoughts on wearing out Pokemon, but my issue with the argument of "x gets hit too hard on the switch" is that you have a second slot to switch in the Pokemon. Salamence can't cover both slots without the significantly weaker Hyper Voice or Earthquake and you do have a Pokemon that can do something as the other Pokemon switches in (whether that's something offensive, a status effect, Fake Out, Redirection, or whatever).

 

[Bughouse]

Y'all are talking like we can only ban something for being clearly broken as opposed to just undesirable.

You're coming from a VGC perspective where you just have to deal with what's out there, suck it up, and worst case get annoyed with GF. That includes undesirable things like Dark Void. Yes Dark Void can be played around in numerous ways and it's also obvious on Smeargle, who has no offensive presence. But the metagame would be more enjoyable without it, as evidenced by the fact everyone looks down on people who use it.

Obviously Mega Salamence is not Dark Void. But you're really just coming at this with a perspective that many people on Smogon don't have. When I outlined my thoughts earlier in this thread, I said I don't think it's outright broken. It would take a lot for a mon to be outright broken in any dubs format. But we're in the business of making a more enjoyable meta, imo. For me, that's a metagame without Mence. It makes games more matchup dependent, as would any very strong mon getting (re)introduced. If we had banned Kanga back in XY my vote on Mence may have been different. There's some critical mass of threats a metagame can happily handle, after which it becomes uncomfortable and restricts teambuilding/creates large matchup issues. One more excellent mega was one too many, imo.

Arcticblast edit: jesus fucking christ stop taking shots at each other. I deleted this last comment in this post because it contributes literally nothing

 

[tehy]

Okay, so i got reqs. Now, and this is very important...can anyone tell me how to PLAY this tier ???

kidding, i figured it out a bit towards the tail end, i had a great trap conversation for stratos planned out...rip

from what i've seen with mence it honestly wasn't that great, there were games when it was something of a monster, mostly low-ladder. other games it seemed to not accomplish that much and i'd wish i had some all-purpose soultaker like zard y or Mkanga or even just another mon with actual attacks. Yes, i know you can do 3 attacks protect but...idk man, that's what the sample team had and no one thinks that set is broken anyhow, not even that one dude who was hyping it up back there.

i definitely would say it's a top-tier threat, but I feel like ladder has adjusted to it well, and despite a skill gulf of sorts it wasn't doing that much work. Sure, ladder sucks and therefore teambuilding doesn't really matter, but it's worth noting you CAN make yourself not weak to M-Mence with legitimately good Pokemon. Does that overcentralize the meta or limit teambuilding too much... i don't know but I agree with makiri, let's see if the metagame can adjust around it.

also 'but it late game sweeps when its check and counters are down' fun fact: 'it can sweep when its checks and counters are gone' is basically phraseona non grata in our official analyses, being both super obvious and applying to any sweeper ever. i feel like mence does have enough checks and ways to slow it down that it's not just able to brush past its counters itself, and even if you do lose your counters you still might be able to win.

 

[DKFirelord]

So yeah got the reqs and all played the games and all that now for my thoughts on Mega Mence

Though I didn't play against any Mega Salamences I've come to the conclusion that's yes Mence is a monster and can literally just manhandle teams and does have its checks/counters they can be handled with the other 5 slots but has I went up the ladder I noticed teams would always have a way to handle Mence and they adjust to it finding ways to beat it. Basically Mence is stupid good and have good sets but the meta adjusted to it.

 

[The_Business_Guru]

OK, i have recieved the reqs for the COIL or ladder and now for some shit post about Mega-Mence. (please bear with me this is my first post, hopefully ill improve as i learn the game more)(PSPL III introduced me to DOU)

I can see where people are coming from saying the the sheer force and speed of mega-mence make it an absolute threat in this meta however any pokemon used well and has the right support (such as Follow me Jirachi) can become a threat. Most high ladder teams seem to be running some sort of check for mega-salamence, even though mega mence hasn't appeared much in ladder battles (well i've faced 2 in lower ladder)(but with that i have seen anti-kanga team). However usage does not determine 'how broken' a pokemon is. I personally do not support the ban for Mega-Mence however he is still a massive threat in the DOU teir with his insane attack and speed however there are counters and checks for him that do not cause a massive affect on the user's team (or even the same team just a different strategy) for example one of the common pokemon i have seen in DOU and can be classified as a check is Cressilia and its access to 'icy wind' as Mega-Mence doesn't enjoy the speed loss:

60 SpA Cresselia Icy Wind vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 112-132 (33.7 - 39.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 240 HP / 12 Def Cresselia: 256-303 (58 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Rapture]

Ok I heard stories of how subpar the ladder was but I didn't think it was gonna be that bad (I saw more Dragonites on ladder then Mega Mence I’m pretty sure). Anyway, after getting reqs I realized the fact that laddering didn't tell me anything about whether Mega Salamence was broken or not so I decided to check out a few of the games from the suspect tour a couple days back and I definitely think that Mega Salamence is still way too much to handle for the doubles metagame. It boasts crazy good stats which include a massively high attack stat, decent bulk for an offensive mon which allow it to shrug off attacks in combination with Intimidate, and a speed stat that allows to outpace the majority of the unboosted meta, All of which invalidate most of the pokemon that could take it out. Its move pool is nothing to laugh at either, as it gets plenty of coverage that can allow it go mixed in order to beat some of its counters and checks, though it gets most of its power in its claim to fame which is the combination of dragon dance + normal move + aerialate which gives it an insanely powerful flying type stab that can decimate the tier after a single boost. That's not to say it doesn't have counters and checks but most of them can be overcome easily with very minimal team support, the main culprit being Jirachi since as mentioned before in the thread it has perfect type synergy with mence and can use Follow Me to redirect any threatening attacks towards itself.

tldr: Mega Mence is totes unhealthy for doubles

 

[Antar]

So I realize the suspect test still has a few hours to go, but w/e.

Arcticblast asked me to put together moveset statistics for the suspect test, and he's a really cool dude, so I have!

May's stats have been updated to fix a bug.

Usage information for the June battles in the tier can be found here.

And below is combined stats for the whole period:

Combined Suspect Test Usage

Combined usage for Combined Suspect Test Usage
 + ---- + ------------------ + ------- + 
 | Rank | Pokemon            | Percent | 
 + ---- + ------------------ + ------- + 
 | 1    | Landorus-Therian   | 28.298% |
 | 2    | Heatran            | 27.723% |
 | 3    | Kangaskhan         | 24.015% |
 | 4    | Amoonguss          | 20.465% |
 | 5    | Thundurus          | 19.211% |
 | 6    | Sylveon            | 18.972% |
 | 7    | Salamence          | 16.787% |
 | 8    | Talonflame         | 15.004% |
 | 9    | Rotom-Wash         | 12.295% |
 | 10   | Aegislash          | 11.710% |
 | 11   | Cresselia          | 11.707% |
 | 12   | Jirachi            | 11.585% |
 | 13   | Azumarill          | 10.543% |
 | 14   | Charizard          |  9.998% |
 | 15   | Keldeo             |  9.958% |
 | 16   | Bisharp            |  9.133% |
 | 17   | Shaymin-Sky        |  8.969% |
 | 18   | Terrakion          |  8.381% |
 | 19   | Mew                |  7.882% |
 | 20   | Suicune            |  7.416% |
 | 21   | Zapdos             |  6.769% |
 | 22   | Tyranitar          |  6.698% |
 | 23   | Gardevoir          |  6.586% |
 | 24   | Breloom            |  6.339% |
 | 25   | Venusaur           |  6.333% |
 | 26   | Garchomp           |  5.997% |
 | 27   | Politoed           |  5.988% |
 | 28   | Diancie            |  5.957% |
 | 29   | Hydreigon          |  5.863% |
 | 30   | Togekiss           |  5.687% |
 | 31   | Conkeldurr         |  5.553% |
 | 32   | Ferrothorn         |  5.323% |
 | 33   | Latios             |  5.245% |
 | 34   | Gengar             |  5.207% |
 | 35   | Excadrill          |  5.030% |
 | 36   | Gyarados           |  5.028% |
 | 37   | Kyurem-Black       |  4.610% |
 | 38   | Scrafty            |  4.332% |
 | 39   | Metagross          |  4.321% |
 | 40   | Scizor             |  4.254% |
 | 41   | Ludicolo           |  4.238% |
 | 42   | Landorus           |  4.140% |
 | 43   | Milotic            |  4.119% |
 | 44   | Sableye            |  3.843% |
 | 45   | Dragonite          |  3.714% |
 | 46   | Greninja           |  3.694% |
 | 47   | Weavile            |  3.644% |
 | 48   | Camerupt           |  3.490% |
 | 49   | Genesect           |  3.333% |
 | 50   | Darkrai            |  3.267% |
 | 51   | Whimsicott         |  3.265% |
 | 52   | Gastrodon          |  3.204% |
 | 53   | Hitmontop          |  3.119% |
 | 54   | Arcanine           |  3.044% |
 | 55   | Abomasnow          |  3.009% |
 | 56   | Clefable           |  2.987% |
 | 57   | Swampert           |  2.808% |
 | 58   | Chandelure         |  2.587% |
 | 59   | Machamp            |  2.511% |
 | 60   | Deoxys-Attack      |  2.492% |
 | 61   | Rhyperior          |  2.472% |
 | 62   | Hariyama           |  2.419% |
 | 63   | Volcarona          |  2.394% |
 | 64   | Mawile             |  2.331% |
 | 65   | Dusclops           |  2.317% |
 | 66   | Aerodactyl         |  2.228% |
 | 67   | Manectric          |  2.170% |
 | 68   | Jellicent          |  2.170% |
 | 69   | Rotom-Heat         |  2.117% |
 | 70   | Mamoswine          |  2.112% |
 | 71   | Aurorus            |  2.007% |
 | 72   | Serperior          |  1.965% |
 | 73   | Thundurus-Therian  |  1.914% |
 | 74   | Aromatisse         |  1.886% |
 | 75   | Meowstic           |  1.775% |
 | 76   | Kingdra            |  1.749% |
 | 77   | Klefki             |  1.746% |
 | 78   | Victini            |  1.741% |
 | 79   | Raichu             |  1.716% |
 | 80   | Typhlosion         |  1.672% |
 | 81   | Blaziken           |  1.658% |
 | 82   | Slowbro            |  1.643% |
 | 83   | Latias             |  1.632% |
 | 84   | Porygon2           |  1.611% |
 | 85   | Ninetales          |  1.564% |
 | 86   | Reuniclus          |  1.527% |
 | 87   | Sceptile           |  1.451% |
 | 88   | Cradily            |  1.415% |
 | 89   | Staraptor          |  1.326% |
 | 90   | Lopunny            |  1.255% |
 | 91   | Gothitelle         |  1.194% |
 | 92   | Ampharos           |  1.151% |
 | 93   | Crawdaunt          |  1.141% |
 | 94   | Lucario            |  1.139% |
 | 95   | Raikou             |  1.118% |
 | 96   | Gallade            |  1.089% |
 | 97   | Liepard            |  1.049% |
 | 98   | Manaphy            |  1.038% |
 | 99   | Altaria            |  1.034% |
 | 100  | Ambipom            |  1.034% |
 | 101  | Blastoise          |  1.032% |
 | 102  | Escavalier         |  1.006% |
 | 103  | Heracross          |  0.968% |
 | 104  | Chansey            |  0.954% |
 | 105  | Porygon-Z          |  0.937% |
 | 106  | Bronzong           |  0.931% |
 | 107  | Mienshao           |  0.911% |
 | 108  | Vivillon           |  0.896% |
 | 109  | Goodra             |  0.893% |
 | 110  | Shuckle            |  0.887% |
 | 111  | Infernape          |  0.887% |
 | 112  | Noivern            |  0.856% |
 | 113  | Snorlax            |  0.841% |
 | 114  | Gliscor            |  0.835% |
 | 115  | Aggron             |  0.825% |
 | 116  | Medicham           |  0.820% |
 | 117  | Heliolisk          |  0.814% |
 | 118  | Crobat             |  0.806% |
 | 119  | Pachirisu          |  0.790% |
 | 120  | Alakazam           |  0.788% |
 | 121  | Starmie            |  0.776% |
 | 122  | Cofagrigus         |  0.773% |
 | 123  | Jolteon            |  0.737% |
 | 124  | Marowak            |  0.687% |
 | 125  | Froslass           |  0.664% |
 | 126  | Malamar            |  0.649% |
 | 127  | Kecleon            |  0.646% |
 | 128  | Gigalith           |  0.607% |
 | 129  | Krookodile         |  0.597% |
 | 130  | Magnezone          |  0.582% |
 | 131  | Hawlucha           |  0.579% |
 | 132  | Trevenant          |  0.565% |
 | 133  | Tornadus           |  0.556% |
 | 134  | Hippowdon          |  0.550% |
 | 135  | Entei              |  0.535% |
 | 136  | Zygarde            |  0.526% |
 | 137  | Clefairy           |  0.517% |
 | 138  | Honchkrow          |  0.516% |
 | 139  | Nidoking           |  0.512% |
 | 140  | Tornadus-Therian   |  0.507% |
 | 141  | Ditto              |  0.503% |
 | 142  | Espeon             |  0.503% |
 | 143  | Cloyster           |  0.496% |
 | 144  | Umbreon            |  0.495% |
 | 145  | Scolipede          |  0.479% |
 | 146  | Vaporeon           |  0.465% |
 | 147  | Aron               |  0.454% |
 | 148  | Lapras             |  0.454% |
 | 149  | Celebi             |  0.452% |
 | 150  | Electivire         |  0.448% |
 | 151  | Houndoom           |  0.444% |
 | 152  | Steelix            |  0.441% |
 | 153  | Omastar            |  0.435% |
 | 154  | Dusknoir           |  0.427% |
 | 155  | Lanturn            |  0.426% |
 | 156  | Skarmory           |  0.421% |
 | 157  | Pinsir             |  0.417% |
 | 158  | Shiftry            |  0.409% |
 | 159  | Kyurem             |  0.409% |
 | 160  | Furfrou            |  0.407% |
 | 161  | Beedrill           |  0.394% |
 | 162  | Golurk             |  0.392% |
 | 163  | Murkrow            |  0.377% |
 | 164  | Carbink            |  0.374% |
 | 165  | Toxicroak          |  0.367% |
 | 166  | Slowking           |  0.363% |
 | 167  | Gourgeist-Super    |  0.361% |
 | 168  | Spinda             |  0.356% |
 | 169  | Rotom-Frost        |  0.343% |
 | 170  | Eelektross         |  0.343% |
 | 171  | Darmanitan         |  0.337% |
 | 172  | Galvantula         |  0.336% |
 | 173  | Audino             |  0.334% |
 | 174  | Smeargle           |  0.328% |
 | 175  | Rampardos          |  0.315% |
 | 176  | Parasect           |  0.299% |
 | 177  | Cinccino           |  0.285% |
 | 178  | Blissey            |  0.274% |
 | 179  | Tyrantrum          |  0.269% |
 | 180  | Togetic            |  0.269% |
 | 181  | Pyroar             |  0.269% |
 | 182  | Musharna           |  0.264% |
 | 183  | Jynx               |  0.264% |
 | 184  | Kabutops           |  0.262% |
 | 185  | Meloetta           |  0.261% |
 | 186  | Hitmonlee          |  0.252% |
 | 187  | Clawitzer          |  0.251% |
 | 188  | Haxorus            |  0.250% |
 | 189  | Donphan            |  0.249% |
 | 190  | Glaceon            |  0.247% |
 | 191  | Shedinja           |  0.247% |
 | 192  | Cobalion           |  0.245% |
 | 193  | Leafeon            |  0.242% |
 | 194  | Exeggutor          |  0.242% |
 | 195  | Tangrowth          |  0.234% |
 | 196  | Dragalge           |  0.233% |
 | 197  | Feraligatr         |  0.232% |
 | 198  | Regirock           |  0.227% |
 | 199  | Purugly            |  0.222% |
 | 200  | Moltres            |  0.219% |
 | 201  | Articuno           |  0.215% |
 | 202  | Empoleon           |  0.213% |
 | 203  | Golem              |  0.211% |
 | 204  | Drapion            |  0.209% |
 | 205  | Tentacruel         |  0.207% |
 | 206  | Banette            |  0.206% |
 | 207  | Pidgeot            |  0.206% |
 | 208  | Roserade           |  0.206% |
 | 209  | Slaking            |  0.205% |
 | 210  | Sharpedo           |  0.197% |
 | 211  | Sawsbuck           |  0.187% |
 | 212  | Flygon             |  0.185% |
 | 213  | Rhydon             |  0.181% |
 | 214  | Chesnaught         |  0.180% |
 | 215  | Delphox            |  0.178% |
 | 216  | Glalie             |  0.178% |
 | 217  | Lilligant          |  0.177% |
 | 218  | Armaldo            |  0.170% |
 | 219  | Weezing            |  0.170% |
 | 220  | Mandibuzz          |  0.170% |
 | 221  | Victreebel         |  0.169% |
 | 222  | Wigglytuff         |  0.167% |
 | 223  | Exploud            |  0.165% |
 | 224  | Slurpuff           |  0.164% |
 | 225  | Spiritomb          |  0.163% |
 | 226  | Mismagius          |  0.156% |
 | 227  | Archeops           |  0.156% |
 | 228  | Rotom-Mow          |  0.156% |
 | 229  | Pikachu            |  0.154% |
 | 230  | Octillery          |  0.152% |
 | 231  | Wobbuffet          |  0.151% |
 | 232  | Azelf              |  0.148% |
 | 233  | Florges            |  0.147% |
 | 234  | Carracosta         |  0.146% |
 | 235  | Vileplume          |  0.138% |
 | 236  | Venomoth           |  0.138% |
 | 237  | Luxray             |  0.135% |
 | 238  | Seaking            |  0.135% |
 | 239  | Cherrim            |  0.132% |
 | 240  | Accelgor           |  0.119% |
 | 241  | Braviary           |  0.119% |
 | 242  | Clamperl           |  0.115% |
 | 243  | Illumise           |  0.111% |
 | 244  | Lunatone           |  0.110% |
 | 245  | Swellow            |  0.108% |
 | 246  | Yanmega            |  0.108% |
 | 247  | Gothorita          |  0.108% |
 | 248  | Virizion           |  0.107% |
 | 249  | Regigigas          |  0.106% |
 | 250  | Beheeyem           |  0.104% |
 | 251  | Mr. Mime           |  0.103% |
 | 252  | Magmortar          |  0.100% |
 | 253  | Misdreavus         |  0.100% |
 | 254  | Granbull           |  0.100% |
 + ---- + ------------------ + ------- +

In addition to the usage stats, don't forget to peek at the moveset statistics! For instance, 77% of Landorus-T's ran Choice Scarf. The next most popular item was Life Orb at 5.4% (using 1695 stats).

 

[Haruno]

| 19 | Mew | 7.882% |


Rip mew's low usage :[ everything else seems solid, including the fact that amoong is more used than mence xd

 

[BreloomMyHomie]

I just got reqs so i'm just gonna post my thoughts on mega mence. The ability to bring the game back in your favor is just amazing. By running the icy wind+follow me jirachi+ mega salamence, you can run through teams. Mega salamence is definitely overcentralizing, being able to run multiple sets. There's the mixed mega salamence set with fire blast to ohko ferrothorn and bisharp and double edge to ohko hyper voice threats like mega gardevoir. And there's the dragon dance set, able to ohko common threats after one dragon dance such as shaymin sky, mega camerupt, and sylveon.

252 SpA Mega Salamence Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp: 304-358 (111.7 - 131.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Mega Camerupt: 385-454 (111.9 - 131.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gardevoir: 331-390 (119 - 140.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 550-648 (140.3 - 165.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I really want the Doubles OU tier to be a fun, and a bit challenging metagame that is pretty fair and balanced like pastelgameboy said, and to do this mega salamence must be banned. This monster affects everyone's way of teambuilding in this tier by becoming focused on how to counter this one pokemon.

I definitely think mega salamence should be banned unless someone comes up with an anti-ban post with some great points/calcs.

 

[Checkmater]

Y'all are talking like we can only ban something for being clearly broken as opposed to just undesirable.

You're coming from a VGC perspective where you just have to deal with what's out there, suck it up, and worst case get annoyed with GF. That includes undesirable things like Dark Void. Yes Dark Void can be played around in numerous ways and it's also obvious on Smeargle, who has no offensive presence. But the metagame would be more enjoyable without it, as evidenced by the fact everyone looks down on people who use it.

Obviously Mega Salamence is not Dark Void. But you're really just coming at this with a perspective that many people on Smogon don't have. When I outlined my thoughts earlier in this thread, I said I don't think it's outright broken. It would take a lot for a mon to be outright broken in any dubs format. But we're in the business of making a more enjoyable meta, imo. For me, that's a metagame without Mence. It makes games more matchup dependent, as would any very strong mon getting (re)introduced. If we had banned Kanga back in XY my vote on Mence may have been different. There's some critical mass of threats a metagame can happily handle, after which it becomes uncomfortable and restricts teambuilding/creates large matchup issues. One more excellent mega was one too many, imo.

Arcticblast edit: jesus fucking christ stop taking shots at each other. I deleted this last comment in this post because it contributes literally nothing

Seeing as how the burden of proof is somehow on us to prove that mence is both unbroken and a "more-fun" meta (totally subjective)

Before we get into deep questions like "why do I play mons" and "what even is the meaning of life" or "did I even shower today" we should establish what makes a meta fun. My definition of a fun meta will basically be stratos', a meta in which people who are good at teambuilding and are good at in-game predictions excel. Basically, good people do well. What this means is that there are loads of top-tier mons that good teambuilders can use to fill various niches in their teams, allowed for more creativity and better teambuilding.

And, in the status quo, before mence, we definitely have that. My own teams' preparations for dugtrio cup have proven that: we've made teams and then realized that entire top-tier teams and mons are stil completely untaken. We've teambuilt 3 different teams with no intersections, then said "wait, where's kyube, aegislash, keldeo, skymin, diancie, bisharp, etc.". And when group-building or just building by myself, it's apparent that there are loads of top-tier threats. So much so that we've stopped thinking about it as "keldeo weak" and started to say things like "fire weaks" and "water weaks". At the moment, successful teambuilding requires one to consider and prepare for a plethora of threats.

So, when we ask whether or not we want to ban mence, we have to consider five things:

1) What does it do to the viability of various mons?

2) Does it force certain play-styles out of viability?

3) Is it overly popular by itself?

4) Is playing against it "un-fun"?

5) How does it affect the teambuilding process?

What does it do to the viability of various mons?
​

Simply put, everything that was popular before is still popular now, in addition with new threats out there. Amoonguss is, and always will be, everywhere. (It's interesting to note that all the arguments of overcentralization apply to amoonguss as well. It's commonly said that you need 2-3 mence-checks, it's also commonly said that you need 2-3 spore immunities). A cursory comparison of the usage stats for before and during the suspect yields almost identical stats.

In addition, we've seen other, previously unpopular mons achieve a new spotlight. Jirachi, Excadrill, and Tyranitar have all seen new usage, something which I think is great. People are using mence to make previously un-optimal mons to compliment each other and bring them into viability.

Does it force certain play-styles out of viability?
​

We've seen trick room grow in popularity, but we haven't seen any particular archetype fall. We've even seen sand become a thing.

Is it overly popular by itself?​

As many have said, mence is pretty unpopular. It gets better as you go higher, as people are using mence more in 1400+, but mence isn't overarching, everywhere, or part of most of teams.

Is playing against it "un-fun"?
​

This question is harder to answer, as it depends from person to person. For me, a fun game is one where I have to think during the match, I have to consider win conditions and how to play, and my opponent's strat. This is doubly true of mence. I don't know who said it, and I'm too lazy to scroll through 8 pages of essays, but someone said "but when you play against mence you have to play differently" and my response is no shit. That's what makes the game fun/skillful: playing according to your opponent's win conditions and your own.

How does if affect the teambuilding process?
​

Everyone and their mother has been saying "you have to run 17 mence checks". You kinda don't. The extent of my mence checks were a fairy and a bulky steel, no ice coverage, and I had no issues against it, just by playing smartly. Sure, there were games where I lost to hax/predictions, but I never felt like it was just over from team preview, which is what people are making it sound like. I wasn't even running electric or rock types, or any ice coverage at all, every time I saw it I just clicked speed control and then it couldn't do much.




The general vibe is that #banmence people are making loads of assumptions, as others have pointed out. Assumptions such as "it's a 2v1", "Jirachi will always be there and have infinite bulk" or "we're actually playing singles". None of these are true. I wasn't here for the last suspect, but I imagine many people are forgetting that the meta game is different and more accommodating to the inclusion of mence now. I'm going to end this post with a request, to Stratos, to people asking that we ban it again: look at mence with fresh eyes and make legitimate consideration and consider these 5 questions.


Thanks for reading all of this, assuming you did. I tried to make it less of a wall of text.

 

[Yellow Paint]

What does it do to the viability of various mons?
Megamence in fact does lower the viability of other mons, such as talonflame, diancie, and lando t. None of those can deal reasonable damage to bulky mence, while mence easily competes for their respective roles on a team. Also, that comparison to amoong doesn't make much sense. It's usually only one or two sleep immunities, and any sleep immunity 100% counters amoonguss, whereas mence checks are much shakier.

Does it force certain play-styles out of viability?
Have you tried fighting mence with rain? It literally needs one dd, after which you outspeed ludi, rip apart "dragon killers" not named mawile, and basically only become threatened by twave or a double ice target.

Is playing against it "un-fun"?
You definitely have to play differently vs mence, but to the point that mence is such a big wincon that you have to focus your plays around it. You have to ask yourself every turn whether he'll dd, and the second you get it wrong you're heavily punished. In my opinion, mons shouldn't be a game of pure 50/50s, it's one where you make the best moves, with prediction as a side factor.

Something to note about #banmence: it's already banned, and if it's common, people are pretty content with the way things are. If you wanna #freemence, you've gotta give a better reason than that doubles will balance itself out. You could say the same thing about ho oh, after all.

 

[Kableye]

got ladder reqs yesterday. meme'd the fuck out of the ladder.
So I'm not sure I can say anything really that hasn't already been said in this 8 pages of happy interactions. A point that I feel is very important is that most of its offensive checks fail to switch in and lose to it after it dragon dances (Mega Gardevoir, Mega Diancie if packing EQ, Sylveon, etc). It causes people to run bulky Salamence checks such as Thundurus, Tyrantitar and other pokemon, all of whom Mega Mence will just switch out against or stay in to deal massive damage to before dying. You do not need to run 1032 Mega Mence checks like people have been saying, but instead more bulky checks

At the same time, this can be said for many other good set up sweepers in the tier. Mega Kangaskhan for example can deal massive damage to its checks, but fails to beat its checks even at +2 because of its lack of speed. Kang also is restricted by being pressured to carry STAB, a non STAB priority move, Fake Out or Protect and Power Up Punch in order to even count as a set up sweeper. Salamence on the other hand has no need for priority because of its speed tier, allowing it to run moves such as Substitute to block status, something Kangaskhan can do but loses other important moves.

Azumarill, another good set up sweeper, loses 1/4 of its health setting up+damage from attackers, lacks speed and has to rely on a fairly weak Aqua Jet against faster teams. Other less common set up sweepers include Latias, which is walled by a good bit of the meta, Scizor which lacks a way to hit fire types and also the speed, Gyarados falls to bulky grass types, Tyrantitar's typing makes it a worst DDer and the list goes on. All of these sweepers require way more support than Salamence and many lack the raw power it has without set up.

Basically, I feel like Mega Salamence puts too much strain on the metagame. It is certainly stoppable if you predict correctly, but combined with all the other threats teams have to build to handle, it makes team building both harder and not enjoyable.

 

[HJAD]

Note: I'm not a full time doubles player nor do I claim to be amazing at the game.

Mega Mence.

I think, especially when the council decided to retest mega Mence that there had to be a thought where mega mence could improve the meta. Make other mons more managable as well as not being retardedly broken itself. In my opinion, Mega Mence does not achieve this.

When I played mega Mence, I often had a huge difficult playing around each set, often sacking 1, 2 or 3 mons at a time if its bad just to find out what coverage moves it had, what coverage moves it doesn't have, what support coverage its got, what type settup moves its got, if it has roost, if it has refresh, if it... You get the point.

My main problem with Mence is the afformentioned unpredictability, its retardly broken in the fact it chooses what mons it wants to be countered by, not the opponent. If the opponent decides his thundy is the mega Mence check and gets bopt by a draco meteor, what's Mence gonna do now? If you decide, diancie is your Mence counter, and it Dragon Dances and Bops you with EQ, what you gonna do now?
Therefore, in my teams especially, I have found that I have had to be more clever in the way I build them, not letting mega Mence either get settup fodder or even the breathing room to attack. By doing this, Mega Mence has no leeway to break your team down, at the expense of 4 out of 6 mons at teambuilder being either a Mence check or Mence counter, neither of which are very common.

Mence, to me at least, looks like the opposite of what you want in a metagame:
Centralising, few counters and unpredictable.

If people think that Mence may cure this meta, from being dull and mundane at least they have achieved that, since with the introduction of Mence I have enjoyed pummeling low ladder noobs with its broken-ness. But, in reality, its not worth it for the metagame in a whole. The meta suffers from its centralisation and I personally will be voting BAN.