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Other ORAS Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter alexwolf
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Would it be possible to get a thread to discuss possible suspects? Since this thread is supposed to be about the current meta a thread dedicated to potential suspects seems like it could work.Keep discussion more towards meta discussion and not suspect discussion. By this I mean don't imply bans or treating it like a definitive suspect thread. I don't mind if you talk about somethings effect on meta though. More civility less idiocy, it's a good motto to live by
Or maybe you could let the meta settle before looking for more problems lol? It's been less then two weeks since the last test finished. Besides the last time a thread like that went up was three suspects ago (just before Metagross iirc) and things were much more unsettled. I don't really think there's enough potentially broken things to talk about "well I think x is broken" without looking for problems that aren't really there.
no cause I rather not have the kid who got in smogon by faking his age and finding this thread to suggest suspecting stuff like talonflame or whatever absurdity those sort of threads attract.
Honestly, there are answers in the stall meta to Manaphy, but of course they are few and far between. THAT IS THE JOB OF A STALLBREAKER. Stallbreakers are mons that thrive against the likes of a stall team, such as M-Medicham, M-Zard-Y, Kyube, etc. These mons excel against slow paced teams that are unable to punish their weaknesses. These mons aren't OP since they don't have what it takes to be able to take on the vast majority of the metagame, but Manaphy is somewhat of an exception. Also just so you know... running Psychic to deal with M-Venu pretty much makes M-Venu a counter until Psychic becomes a mandatory move on Manaphy, since running a Psychic move gives up a ridiculous amount of pressure (think pretty much every water type, Keldeo, Vaporeon, Suicune, Slowbro, Slowking etc.) Not to mention the fact that many other mons take it on quite nicely, including the aforementioned Slowking, Kyurem-B and Gyarados RUN AS DEFENSIVE POKEMON. Pretty much every offensive mon is able to check it with ease, so I understand why stall users are a bit mad, but just run one of its many checks or counters, IMO M-Metagross should pose a much bigger threat to stall, with its higher base power, access to Meteor Mash and great coverage and great offensive and defensive typing. So Manaphy makes its role great because it is an excellent stallbreaker, however there are definitely ways to deal with it.
I think you have a stall breaker and wall breaker mixed up.
A stall breaker is a pokemon that shuts down stall by taunting it in the process. Good example are Gengar and M-Gardevoir.
A wall breaker is a pokemon that breaks walls that are invested in either side of the defensive spectrum.
You haven't got your examples wrong though, Kyurem-B, M-Medicham and M-Heracross are absolute terrors to stall.
A stall breaker is a pokemon that shuts down stall by taunting it in the process. Good example are Gengar and M-Gardevoir.
A wall breaker is a pokemon that breaks walls that are invested in either side of the defensive spectrum.
You haven't got your examples wrong though, Kyurem-B, M-Medicham and M-Heracross are absolute terrors to stall.
Not really correct either.
A Wallbreaker is a Pokemon with high offensive stats and strong coverage which enables it to break a majority of the defensive spectrum with sheer power and thus is threatening defensive cores.
- Garde(M), Zard-Y, Kyu-B, Keldeo
A Stallbreaker is a Pokemon with a great matchup against stall which can beat stall almost on its own. Taunt is an option here but no must-have.
- Clefable (CM/Magic), Goth
A Wallbreaker is a Pokemon with high offensive stats and strong coverage which enables it to break a majority of the defensive spectrum with sheer power and thus is threatening defensive cores.
- Garde(M), Zard-Y, Kyu-B, Keldeo
A Stallbreaker is a Pokemon with a great matchup against stall which can beat stall almost on its own. Taunt is an option here but no must-have.
- Clefable (CM/Magic), Goth
You basically just repeated what I said with the exception of adding that taunt isn't necessary on a stall breaker, which is right, but most stall breakers do carry taunt
My understanding is that Stallbreakers are those who are able to stop the continuous cycle of waiting out turns and losing HP through chip damage, and wallbreakers are those who are able to get past walls, not being mutually exclusive as a mon can be both a stallbreaker and wallbreaker like Kyube.
(to my understanding, this is how I wrote my post before)
(to my understanding, this is how I wrote my post before)
Kyu-B is more a Wallbreaker as SR take quite a toll on its HP and it uses instantly powerfull attacks to break walls. I dont really see it as Stallbreaker.
Alright, thought I would contribute my 2 cents in this discussion.
Manaphy, while it looks great on paper, actually isn't as good as people are making it out to be. Base 100 SpA is really weak in this meta and the lack of Life Orb makes it even more apparent, especially when you are relying on a 80 BP move (Starmie can at least hold a LO and uses Hydro Pump and has Analytic to nuke switch-ins.) While I'm not implying that Starmie > Manaphy, this actually shows that before set-up, Manaphy's damage output is quite disappointing and it misses out on some important KOs, even when the hit is Super Effective (for instance, Ice Beam fails to 2HKO standard Latias and doesn't even OHKO Thundurus-I). Sure, Scald is a retarded move but you are relying on a 30 % chance to burn. For reference, people are already claiming 70 % accuracy Focus Blast as shaky so the times when Scald doesn't burn means you are still doing nothing much that is meaningful. Furthermore, while Manaphy has 100/100/100 bulk, it needs to take hits to set-up so it is actually easier to KO than was implied (since it lacks power, desperate people might simply keep their Pokemon in and sac it in a last-ditch attempt to hit Manaphy. Example: Scald doesn't OHKO Mixed Hippowdon who can either EQ it for almost 40% or Whirlwind it out). As already stated, you really need to be at high health to be threatening (to set-up and sweep), so you really don't want to switch it in to check stuff which makes you lose your only chance to sweep.
Let's compare it with something else, say Mega Gardevoir. Mega Gard has the same Speed as Manaphy but Pixilate Hyper Voice and STAB Psyshock are much more powerful than Manaphy, limiting it' switch-ins to Steel-types and Fire-types. However, Mega Gardevoir has the tools necessary to weaken those checks to it, for example, if Scizor or Mega Metagross carelessly switches in on a Will-O-Wisp, they are crippled for the remainder of the match. Victini is actually 2HKOed if Rocks are up while Klefki and Jirachi doesn't appreciate Taunt or Will-O-Wisp wearing them down either. Talonflame seems great until you realise Psyshock cleanly 2HKOes it, even the Stallbreaker set.
Manaphy, while it looks great on paper, actually isn't as good as people are making it out to be. Base 100 SpA is really weak in this meta and the lack of Life Orb makes it even more apparent, especially when you are relying on a 80 BP move (Starmie can at least hold a LO and uses Hydro Pump and has Analytic to nuke switch-ins.) While I'm not implying that Starmie > Manaphy, this actually shows that before set-up, Manaphy's damage output is quite disappointing and it misses out on some important KOs, even when the hit is Super Effective (for instance, Ice Beam fails to 2HKO standard Latias and doesn't even OHKO Thundurus-I). Sure, Scald is a retarded move but you are relying on a 30 % chance to burn. For reference, people are already claiming 70 % accuracy Focus Blast as shaky so the times when Scald doesn't burn means you are still doing nothing much that is meaningful. Furthermore, while Manaphy has 100/100/100 bulk, it needs to take hits to set-up so it is actually easier to KO than was implied (since it lacks power, desperate people might simply keep their Pokemon in and sac it in a last-ditch attempt to hit Manaphy. Example: Scald doesn't OHKO Mixed Hippowdon who can either EQ it for almost 40% or Whirlwind it out). As already stated, you really need to be at high health to be threatening (to set-up and sweep), so you really don't want to switch it in to check stuff which makes you lose your only chance to sweep.
Let's compare it with something else, say Mega Gardevoir. Mega Gard has the same Speed as Manaphy but Pixilate Hyper Voice and STAB Psyshock are much more powerful than Manaphy, limiting it' switch-ins to Steel-types and Fire-types. However, Mega Gardevoir has the tools necessary to weaken those checks to it, for example, if Scizor or Mega Metagross carelessly switches in on a Will-O-Wisp, they are crippled for the remainder of the match. Victini is actually 2HKOed if Rocks are up while Klefki and Jirachi doesn't appreciate Taunt or Will-O-Wisp wearing them down either. Talonflame seems great until you realise Psyshock cleanly 2HKOes it, even the Stallbreaker set.
Only trouble is by running Wisp on Gard you aren't running focus blast or taunt so you let Chansey or Heatran beat you. Also it takes up a mega slot and has inferior bulk.
Pre boost Manaphy is quite weak, but with its bulk it can boost against bulkier teams quite easily and be near impossible to stop. It doesn't even need the scald burn most of the time.
On Manaphy I think the main contention of the debate really is regarding the boost. Since it definitely needs to boost but it does manage it with ease, the problem is that it necessitates it in order to be a threat.
My gripe about this is that it seems fairly situational too... Because it doesn't account as to what you're aiming for when you bring in Manaphy? It is easy to say it needs to boost in order to cause substantive damage but regardless the threat of it easily boosting is enough to pressure the opponent to be wary. Whereas on your end you're kinda in a favorable spot to decide what you want to do with Manaphy. Spread status? Or create a hole with the opposing team? Wear down checks with coverage? I don't think the revenge scenarios quite capture this nuance, in so much that Manaphy users gain a momentum with regard to the mind game. The threat of tail glow is what gives Manaphy this leverage for most part, it's not very forgiving to make that blunder for most part playing against it. Even if you do blunder a bit as a Manaphy user well you have the bulk to cushion to the blow, and still be a threat with tail glow.
Sure there are other set-up wall breakers or cleaners that are stronger at +2 but they don't carry the same bulk and defensive typing that makes it noticeably easier to set up -- that is why it is A+ and even argued for a higher rank it is easier to set up as compared to others.
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I hate to stop the noisy manaphy's hype train, but really people needs to wake up and stop overrating him or her whatever the fuck it is, that uninvested bulk isnt going to prevent the 2OHKO from most offensive shit in the tier and some defensive threads and considering that monowater is not bad but its not great really his chances to set up are not that common and quite overrated also if u dont get the hax burn with that weak scald it's just a wasted turn and it's better left to a better wall breaker like band azu or whatever mon that hits hard.
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The question is why are you even aiming to set up on the most offensive mons capable of taking almost an entire chunk of your health? That kinda disregards what I am pointing out in thinking there isn't any intelligent play involved in your choice of set up, if at all. You don't just try to attempt a clean sweep when you don't even know the possible revenge killers of the opposing team, or knowing there are base 101+ and up waiting in the wings to take you down after a kill. If it is simply to create a hole in the defensive backbone of the opposing team, then no problem because you're after that trade off.
The point of 2HKO here is how easily revenged it would be given a proper set up, in which case it carries a typing that isn't weak to any priority and generally when invested as you noted is going to be at best 2KHO from strong attacks.
As for scald burning or not it doesn't particularly matter because the point is momentum is still going to be shifted on your side regardless. The opponent is hard pressed to prevent set up or will have to take priority in believing that you'd set up simply because of how easily it can snow ball.
If you look at high level replays or some tournaments, even old suspect tests like in UU, the most effective use of Manaphy isn't when you outright set up and start trying to blow holes against a relatively healthy team that you've yet to even scout. It is when you effectively hit and run trying to spread status, because there is no real repercussion to using Scald because it is such a low cost move (you still cause chip damage and have a 30% to burn no draw backs). Or in some cases using coverage against the checks. Using that looming threat of TG is what good players use intelligently, there is too much risk on the side of the opponent to bluff, to hit and run. It may not have power behind its hit and run tactic but it does pull it off relatively successful nonetheless.
As for other wall breakers I think you simplify the team building process too much in thinking you can just interchange one wall breaker over another just because they hit hard, especially when they play differently and affect team composition dramatically. So I'm not inclined to entertain this sort of thought because it is simplistic.
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p2
Banned deucer.
Just tested, it's not implemented yet.
is this hoopa in its base form, or hoopa-u?
hoopa-i will be a decent stallbreaker. subcm with focus blast+shadow ball would be a cool stallbreaker, but i cant see it being very effective against other archtypes, due to a good portion of teams having a bisharp/tyranitar/weavile nowadays.
hoopa-i will be a decent stallbreaker. subcm with focus blast+shadow ball would be a cool stallbreaker, but i cant see it being very effective against other archtypes, due to a good portion of teams having a bisharp/tyranitar/weavile nowadays.
I believe Hoopa-U's item is from a cutscene that triggers once you get Hoopa a la Diancite, so they should both be legal.
You get it from entering a Pokemart with Hoopa in your party
Serebii's event page for Hoopa says its event doesn't start until 18th July though: http://www.serebii.net/events/dex/720.shtml
Which would make sense cos that's when the movie releases. Where is the information coming from saying it's released today?
Which would make sense cos that's when the movie releases. Where is the information coming from saying it's released today?
hoopa u is being released soon! you might be wondering to yourself "how can i counter this monstosity! look at that movepool! look at those stats!" due to its banning in the unrealesed ou minitour that was held a lil while ago.
well, dear smogon user, heres the answer to all your problems!
Drapion @ Assault Vest
Ability: Battle Armor
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Careful Nature
- X-Scissor
- Pursuit
- Poison Jab
- Crunch
252+ SpA Life Orb Hoopa Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Drapion: 133-156 (38.6 - 45.3%)
wow, was that damage? haha, sorry, i was too busy not noticing.
well, dear smogon user, heres the answer to all your problems!
Drapion @ Assault Vest
Ability: Battle Armor
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Careful Nature
- X-Scissor
- Pursuit
- Poison Jab
- Crunch
252+ SpA Life Orb Hoopa Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Drapion: 133-156 (38.6 - 45.3%)
wow, was that damage? haha, sorry, i was too busy not noticing.
In all seriousness, I think we should all take a minute to breathe, and look at this from an unbiased and open-minded point of view. I've heard people talking about a suspect, and even a quickban for this already, and I think that's jumping the gun. Depsite its banning in the unrealesed minitour, Hoopa-U might not end up being worthy of one! Not to say it isn't, but we really don't know yet. That was not an accurate representation as to its effectiveness in the current OU metagame.
tldr: dont start clammering for a ban or suspect because we havent even used this thing yet, lol.
tldr: dont start clammering for a ban or suspect because we havent even used this thing yet, lol.
p2
Banned deucer.
i think this one is even better because u can pursuit trap the op mon hoopa?!!!???!!!!!!hoopa u is being released soon! you might be wondering to yourself "how can i counter this monstosity! look at that movepool! look at those stats!" due to its banning in the unrealesed ou minitour that was held a lil while ago.
well, dear smogon user, heres the answer to all your problems!
Drapion @ Assault Vest
Ability: Battle Armor
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Careful Nature
- X-Scissor
- Pursuit
- Poison Jab
- Crunch
252+ SpA Life Orb Hoopa Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Drapion: 133-156 (38.6 - 45.3%)
wow, was that damage? haha, sorry, i was too busy not noticing.
In all seriousness, I think we should all take a minute to breathe, and look at this from an unbiased and open-minded point of view. I've heard people talking about a suspect, and even a quickban for this already, and I think that's jumping the gun. Depsite its banning in the unrealesed minitour, Hoopa-U might not end up being worthy of one! Not to say it isn't, but we really don't know yet. That was not an accurate representation as to its effectiveness in the current OU metagame.
tldr: dont start clammering for a ban or suspect because we havent even used this thing yet, lol.
Skuntank @ Assault Vest
Ability: Aftermath
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Foul Play
- Pursuit
- Poison Jab
252 SpA Life Orb Hoopa-Unbound Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Skuntank: 135-160 (32.9 - 39%) -- 99.7% chance to 3HKO eatin it up
4 Atk Skuntank Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa-Unbound: 234-276 (77.7 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Skuntank Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hoopa-Unbound: 63-75 (20.9 - 24.9%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
u can also run defog incase ur av gets knocked off!!!!
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