Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

[TheKingKarp]

Alright I usually don't post much on Smogon but I've been trying to change that so here is my 2 cents on the topics as of now. (I'm new to this so don't get too mad at me)

Metagross to A+
Really hard for me to make a decision on it but I really do think it's time for it to move down. The increase of Skarm, Mega Scizor and Bulky Chomp really hurt it (literally in Bulky Chomp's case lol) these mons all get free turns off of Metagross's precense and can use it to set up rocks, spikes, SD, etc. Also stuff like Clef which its supposed to switch in to now carry t-wave which cripple mega metagross for the rest of the match. Don't get me wrong Mega Meta is still a threat but not the same threat we saw earlier in the year (it was suspected thats how good it was)

Keldeo to S
I can definitely agree with this movement the influx of Weavile and Scizor is really helping Keldeo. The plethora of sets it can run also make it a threat in the current metagame. Specs acting as a great wallbreaker and scarf serving as a good cleaner late game with its stabs. Even SubCM something i was initially opposed to has put in a lot of work in practice. The presence of pursuit trapping really does help it as Weavile usually traps Latis for Keldeo to destroy the team. Keldeo is definitely a great mon rn and I can definitely see it rising to S

Rotom-W to A-
Unfortunately my fav washing machine is going to move down and I support this as well. It simply just gets overwhelmed. The influx of bulky talonflame which wisps it and wears it down really hurts it and stuff like Refresh/heal Bell Altaria just uses it as set-up fodder. It simply just gets overpowered by top tier OU threats such as mega meta, mega gyara, zard x, alt even Clef can use it as set-up fodder. So ya even though it is a good blanket check to a lot of things it simply just gets overpowered to easily. The lack of reliable recovery also hurts it.

Celebi to B+
Yes. Its way too passive to do anything. Zard X just sets up and rips apart your team. Weavile's precense hurts it and although I used to love using it, it simply is too little in this metagame of Weavile, Tornadus-T, Zard, Altaria.

Gengar to A
Disagree no matter what this thing still hits like a truck. Ripping apart balance teams with relative ease, Even though we do see stuff like Weavile and Tornadus-T around they really dont appreciate switching in. and if Gengar decides to set up a Sub on the switch and then Wisps the weavile, thats a pretty good trade off. Gengar's speed is still great even though it isnt spectacular it still puts in work and giving it a free turn usually ends up with something severely crippled.

Hippowdon to A+
I agree. There's a reason this thing has shot up in usage. It's simply so easy to put on balance teams. Its overall bulk allows it to tank hits from so many mons its crazy. I mean it can get set up on by Bulk Up Talonfalme (If no toxic/whirlwind) and it does struggle with water types (Keldeo/Manaphy) Those weaknesses don't take too much away from its superb utility. Not much to say on this mon! It's simply one of the best.

 

[teamsnickers]

Im going to nom Ampharos (Mega) from C to B-. While it has some cool niches (tr sweeper, agility set) its set that deserves the rise is the special defensive rest talk set. This is one of the best mons to steal momentum in the game, with a impressive 6 resist and 90-105-110 bulk combined with a 165 special attack, mega ampharos cannot be weaken like other volt/turn mons and can rest off the damage. its a very hard mon to switch into as mega alt has to find a chance to mega and ground types have to deal with its impressive dragon pulse. This is not a shitmon with a niche, this is a legit threat in the metagame rn. Its biggest counters (mega alt mega gross etc) can just be volt turned out and momentum is once again yours.Its positives vastly outweigh the negatives and when used right this mon is a pain in the ass for your opponents.It can also use its agility set as a lure and use its decent movepool to run focus blast. The metagame is really healthy for mega amph to create havoc with the increase in things like bulky chomp skarm and mega scizor Mega amph can use a super effective attack on 2 of them or just volt out as it hard walls mega scizor
Calcs
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Mega Ampharos: 140-165 (36.5 - 43%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
28 SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 109-130 (36.2 - 43.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
28 SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Volt Switch vs. 248 HP / 176 SpD Mega Scizor: 102-120 (29.7 - 34.9%) -- 12.2% chance to 3HKO
84 Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Ampharos: 47-56 (12.2 - 14.6%) -- possible 7HKO
0 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Ampharos: 260-308 (67.8 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Garchomp Dragon Tail vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Ampharos: 156-186 (40.7 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
28 SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 330-390 (78.5 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 84 Atk Mega Scizor Knock Off vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Ampharos: 270-318 (70.4 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 84 Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Mega Ampharos: 186-220 (48.5 - 57.4%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Alright, Mega Ampharos.

Anyone who knows me or talks to me a lot knows I've been on the Amph hype train for a few weeks. This thing is seriously underrated. The amount of things it checks is absurd, from Charizard Y, pretty much any electric in the tier (Barring Nasty Plot Thundurus, it can dispatch all of them really easily, and even then Thundurus does not like taking a Volt Switch or Dragon Pulse, while not doing too much either), Bird Spam, a wide variety of Water types, and the list goes on. Personally, I've been trying it out on a spikes stall team, and it works quite well, as spikes allow it to circumvent some counters such as Hippo (though it does need some speed to creep hippo, but IIRC it's only 20 EVs, so hardly anything and its not like that hurts your absolutely MASSIVE bulk) with a bit of prediction (DPulse on the switch should 2hko with some spikes up). It also pairs quite well with Spikes Skarmory on a synergy level, so its not hard at all to find a good spiker to go with it.

Also, Ampharos works as an emergency check for many mons on offense particularly. If healthy and if forced to, it can take a super effective hit or absurdly strong one like Specs Secret Sword and retaliate back. While this isn't ideal, many mons that should be able to invalidate Ampharos simply end up trading, which is not as bad as it sounds. A lot of people underestimate not only the bulk of Mega Ampharos (seriously its huge, especially with that typing) but also its power even when uninvested.

But yea, there's a reason why it is where it is now. It requires a huge amount of support for one, particularly Heal Bell, but it does have quite a bit of synergy with the premier cleric, which can also pass wishes to heal Ampharos mind you, in Unaware Clefable, arguably the best defensive Pokemon for taking out most dragons and ice types in the tier at the moment. Also it has to rely quite a bit on sleep talk rolls which is never good as it can become overwhelmed at times and forced to Rest up. Finally, while it does check quite a few threats, prominent ones, in the metagame, this is a double edged sword. The things it checks are so varied that many of them might appear on the same team, particularly for offense, which might sound amazing at first, but further adds in to the pressure put on Ampharos, forcing a Rest. Being reliant of Rest for recovery makes this environment somewhat scary for Ampharos, whereas Pokemon with instant recovery (Softboiled, Recover, Roost etc) would likely welcome this.

But in the end I think Ampharos is quite an interesting mon, so B- is a good place for it. It needs a lot of support to work but when it gets that support (Hazards, Cleric, I also forgot to mention hazard removal which is very big for Ampharos to pivot properly) it is very solid. Mega Ampharos for B- :]

EDIT: One more thing.

Please move Tangrowth up. AV Tangrowth is so ridiculously good. It handles so many things like Manaphy to an extent, Excadrill, Keldeo, Lando, Mega Gyarados, etc. Its a fantastic mon that personally I could even see in B+, but every step counts I guess. Move this up to B.

 

[Ramses]

Clefable -> S

• Stay S pls. It walls such a giant portion of the entire Metagame and can sweep nearly effortlessly. I favor Unaware as it allows it to check so many Set-up sweepers that thirst for the power it needs to break Clefable and wins CM wars. Magic Guard is also a great ability as it prevents it from being Stallbroken by use of Status. Its vertastility in OU is unmatched by so many Pokemon in the tier that I can only say it'll be in S for a while. It can function as a Wall, an attacking Tank, Support, Wishpassing, and most of the time do multiple jobs at once without breaking a sweat. Stay S

Mega Houndoom ->B

• Its about time this was critiqued. I agree so much with this. Its very anti-metagame. At a 115 Speed tier it outruns the crowded 110 tier and can hit all of them very hard. It checks Metagross, Lati@s, Gengar and so much more. Not to mention its access to Nasty Plot. Its typing is rather great as Dark and Fire allows it to hit hard what STAB can't hit hard. It has decent coverage in Sludge Bomb which allows it to hit Azumarill. It can function on Sun Teams and off sun teams allowing ti to run Solar Beam as an excellent option and it also has Destiny Bond which gives it a great last ditch effort. Aside from what I've mentioned thats all there is Houndoom aside its average Speed PreEvo and not having a large amount of vertastility. B plz

Mega Pidgeot-> B-

• I can see this happening. BirdSpam is good as ever and Bird Jesus offers 100% accurate Hurrihits with no drawbacks aside low pp. It has pretty decent power as well with one of the most barren movepools. However it can pivot with U-turn and if you roll like that can use Hyper Beam for last ditch efforts. Heat Wave, Work Up, Refresh, Roost, etc are some godly support moves and I see it more as a Stallbreaker and late game cleaner than a Sweeper or Wallbreaker. I believe those two roles are unique so B- plz.

Mega Ampharos -> C+

• I can agree on this. Its quite unprepared for alongside a very good Defensive typing as well. I favor its Agility set as its quite devastating as a late game cleaner or early game Wallbreaker. I checks quite a large portion of the A rank mons as well, but what I believe restrains it is it poor movepool. Its best coverage options range from Dpulse, Tbolt, Focus Miss, Power Gem, and Signal Beam which means STABS and Focus Miss along with Agility. So it has a shallow movepool but was blessed with good actual coverage. Its also one of the few Dragons that can beat Azumarill 1-on-1 as well since Azu doesn't commons run max Speed like AgiliRos would.

 

[thesecondbest]

OK im glad people are saying Mega-Amphy should move up but AM already said no. Then again, that was when I made the nomination, so maybe now that others make it like a week later he might listen to it :/ I love how this system is basically who yells the loudest and not what the actual argument is :|

Speaking of yelling, I guess I should voice my opinion on Mega Metagross. I thought this thing was banworthy, but the meta has conformed to it. that doesn't mean that it isn't still S rank worthy. All the things people are saying about it (someone said 110 was a low speed tier, 4mss, etc) are things that applied to Lando-I. A great quote:
"Megagross's S rank set is its wall breaking set atm as it covers a vast majority of the metagame as it is. But i dont understand how megagross is weaker wall breaker considering all of its checks and counters are situational. It has a similair effect to landorus I where u need like 2 checks to it just so u can scout out what coverage move it has which is proven by that hippwdown + skarmory core u mentioned."

This thing is still as strong as ever. It might not be as viable, but it is still just as centralizing and broken. This is insanely paradoxical which is why I have refrained for commenting on this until now. If the whole meta has to adapt to one mon, it will be less viable obviously. But that means it is centralizing as hell and should probably be banned. So in terms of being less viable, I agree. But to be suspected, something apparently has to be in S (except smeargle and friends weren't very high.) This entire situation is very strange. So I'd say Metagross, strangely enough, should be A+, but if centralization is a reason to ban something (cough aegislash) then it should be banned, and if all these other terms apply, then Lando should not be banned. Does that make sense?
(also can we discuss stuff like this instead of throwing around useless calcs like a lati draco on it? and if someone says zard-x is splashable, then I guess you haven't been facing many stealth rock users lately. js)

 

[soulgazer]

Hippodown - Should raise. Fits on many teams thanks to its typing and sheer bulk that allows it to check / counter ZardX, Manectric (Electrics in general beside Thundy-I), Bisharp, Lopunny, Excadrill, Tyranitar.. can even work on more offensive teams despite being fat as it is a sturdier sand setter for excadrill and can switch in on threats that usually beat offense (Manectric, Lopunny, Talon).

Mega Manectric - I know I just supported a Pokemon that handle it to raise, but M-Manectric is really good right now. Offense has seen a rise in usage in the past few weeks and Manectric is one of the best Mega against that playstyle. It also pairs really well with wallbreakers such as Manaphy, Keldeo, Serperior, and Kyurem-B, so its lack of powers to break throught certain fat builds isn't as big of an issue in practice.

Chesnaught - It should drop. What does it beat that other 'mons with a similar role can't? People say it beats Bisharp, but Chesnaught struggles against it once it takes some prior damage, especially if the Bisharp user clicked SD. I would rather use Klefki, Skarmory, or Ferrothorn if i wanted a Spiker. It's fodder to some top threats too, making it easy to force it out (which is bad with its lack of good recovery (I know it gets Synthesis, but Sand sees lots of usage and its hard to fit Synthesis sometimes)) and putting lots of pressure on the rest of its team. It does work on some builds, but isn't as good as some people think it is. C+ would be fine for it.

M-Gallade - Why is it so high? Why would you use Gallade over another Mega besides ''because I want to make a M-Gallade team :3''? Why use it over Mega Medicham? All I have seen is people wanting it to be the same rank as Medicham because they are ''similar'', but who ever though when building with Medicham that Gallade would work better over it? Sure it has SD, but lots of fat builds can handle it thanks to M-Sab (which has seen lots of usage lately), Talonflame, Mew, BroKing, etc. Medicham does struggle against same 'mons, but atleast it has immediate power. It also has Fake Out + Bullet Punch, which is really cool against more offensive teams since it gives Medicham a safe turn to Mega too, while Gallade has more problems vs offense. Since it is so strong from t1, Medicham can also afford to go with coverage in its last two moveslot if your team needs it, which Gallade can't really do as it needs SD to 2HKO walls. If you can't read, Medicham simply has more tools than Gallade to do well in the current metagame.

 

[aceguy123]

Hippodown - Should raise. Fits on many teams than to its typing and sheer bulk that allows it to check / counter ZardX, Manectric (Electrics in general beside Thundy-I), Bisharp, Lopunny, Excadrill, Tyranitar.. can even work on more offensive teams despite being fat as it is a sturdier sand setter for excadrill and can switch in on threats that usually beat offense (Manectric, Lopunny, Talon).

Mega Manectric - I know I just supported a Pokemon that handle it to raise, but M-Manectric is really good right now. Offense has seen a rise in usage in the past few weeks and Manectric is one of the best Mega against that playstyle. It also pairs really well with wallbreakers such as Manaphy, Keldeo, Serperior, and Kyurem-B, so its lack of powers to break throught certain fat builds isn't as big of an issue in practice.

Chesnaught - It should drop. What does it beat that other 'mons with a similar role can't? People say it beats Bisharp, but Chesnaught struggles against it once it takes some prior damage, especially if the Bisharp user clicked SD. I would rather use Klefki, Skarmory, or Ferrothorn if i wanted a Spiker. It's fodder to some top threats too, making it easy to force it out (which is bad with its lack of good recovery (I know it gets Synthesis, but Sand sees lots of usage and its hard to fit Synthesis sometimes)) and putting lots of pressure on the rest of its team. It does work on some builds, but isn't as good as some people think it is. C+ would be fine for it.

M-Gallade - Why is it so high? Why would you use Gallade over another Mega besides ''because I want to make a M-Gallade team :3''? Why use it over Mega Medicham? All I have seen is people wanting it to be the same rank as Medicham because they are ''similar'', but who ever though when building with Medicham that Gallade would work better over it? Sure it has SD, but lots of fat builds can handle it thanks to M-Sab (which has seen lots of usage lately), Talonflame, Mew, BroKing, etc. Medicham does struggle against same 'mons, but atleast it has immediate power. It also has Fake Out + Bullet Punch, which is really cool against more offensive teams since it gives Medicham a safe turn to Mega too, while Gallade has more problems vs offense. Since it is so strong from t1, Medicham can also afford to go with coverage in its last two moveslot if your team needs it, which Gallade can't really do as it needs SD to 2HKO walls. If you can't read, Medicham simply has more tools than Gallade to do well in the current metagame.

I'll play devil's advocate for Chesnaught and M-Gallade even though I'm not sold on them either. Chesnaught compared to other defensive walls can beat M-Venu, Ferrothorn, M-Swamp, Sludge Bomb Gengar, non Icy Wind Keldeo, Bisharp (underselling its ability to beat that honestly drain punch heals any damage), M-Gyarados (huge one, only outright counter imo), Weavile to an extent (can take an ice punch with full health and heal back with Drain Punch), Breloom, etc.

M-Gallade's speed is still extremely useful. Beats relevant threats like MLop on the evo (plus immune to Fake Out), Gengar and Megagross speed tie, and Garchomp. The one thing that keeps it where it is for me is Skill Swap which can be an outright gamechanger at times.

Otherwise I agree with Hippowdon and Manectric although it is highly debatable that Manectric is as good as any of the Megas in A+ albeit he is definitely better than all the ones in A.

 

[Funbot28]

Felt like dabbling in the Mega Gross discussion

S ---> A+

At the beginning of ORAS, I would consider this nomination crazy due to how good MegaGross was effectively sweeping teams due to people not being prepared for it. Now however, it has became a common presence in the current meta, with teams bringing viable checks and counters to it like Scizor and Skarmory. I don't like saying that it has 4mss because that is not entirely true, but it sets are far from between, as the all out attacker set is the only set which makes him truly threatening,, with others like the RP set being outclassed by other set up sweepers like Mega Altaria and Mega Zard X. It also always tends to at least require Meteor Mash or Zen Headbutt, and sometimes even both to become effective, limiting it's other options to carry other moves to hit it's checks and counters.

Here are the two sets I tend to see:

Metagross @ Metagrossite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Zen Headbutt
- Bullet Punch/Grass Knot/Ice Punch
- Hammer Arm/Earthquake

Metagross @ Metagrossite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Rock Polish
- Meteor Mash/Iron Head
- Zen Headbutt
- Hammer Arm/Earthquake/Ice Punch

Here are comparisons to the S-Rank mons currently:

Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 172 Def / 84 SpD
Calm Nature
- Calm Mind
- Moonblast
- Soft-Boiled
- Flamethrower/Thunder Wave

Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 172 Def / 84 SpD
Calm Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Moonblast
- Thunder Wave/Fire Blast
- Soft-Boiled

Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
- Moonblast
- Heal Bell/Flamethrower
- Wish
- Protect

Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Moonblast
- Moonlight/Wish
- Heal Bell/Protect/Flamethrower

Clefable @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
- Moonblast
- Fire Blast
- Soft-Boiled
- Focus Blast/Thunderbolt/Ice Beam

Altaria @ Altarianite
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Return
- Earthquake
- Roost/Fire Blast

Altaria @ Altarianite
Ability: Cloud Nine
EVs: 248 HP / 104 Def / 156 SpD
Bold Nature
- Roost
- Hyper Voice/Return
- Heal Bell
- Flamethrower/Earthquake

Altaria @ Altarianite
Ability: Cloud Nine
EVs: 248 HP / 136 Def / 96 SpD / 28 Spe
Impish Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Roost
- Return
- Heal Bell/Substitute/Earthquake

Altaria @ Altarianite
Ability: Cloud Nine
EVs: 248 HP / 168 SpA / 92 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hyper Voice
- Fire Blast
- Roost
- Earthquake/Heal Bell

Charizard @ Charizardite X
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 72 HP / 252 Atk / 184 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Flare Blitz/Fire Punch
- Dragon Claw/Outrage
- Earthquake/Roost

Charizard @ Charizardite X
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 144 HP / 252 Atk / 112 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake/Fire Punch
- Roost

Charizard @ Charizardite X
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 248 HP / 148 SpD / 112 Spe
Careful Nature
- Earthquake/Fire Punch
- Dragon Claw
- Will-O-Wisp
- Roost


Compared to the other mons in it's rank, it has limited options of moves and sets it can use. Recent meta trends also hurt it with the rise of Weavile and Scizor, increasing the rise of Mega Zard X.

All in all MegaGross was an exceptional mon in the beginning of ORAS, as we where all trying to figure out ways of stopping it, but now since the meta has developed, it has weakened in effectiveness, and should not be ranked with mons who contain more versatility like Clef and Mega Altaria. Still being a threat which is more prepared for now.

Just giving my 2 sense, so will accept constructive criticism (which there probably is)

​

 

[bludz]

Celebi to B+ seems inevitable. So many things that are running around just wreck it and it kinda wants to perform multiple utility roles at once but can only do one. Too many weaknesses for a primarily defensive pokemon in this metagame imo. It's too good to drop any lower but yeah.

Metagross to A+ I kind of agree with also. Still a big threat but has gotten a lot worse lately. Maybe if it drops down to A+ people will start trying new sets like Mash/Hammer Arm/BoltBeam Punch or something, because everyone's running bog standard sets which goes against a lot of the reasons people were trying to ban this in the first place.

Hippowdon to A+ has been coming for a while. I mean it's definitely one dimensional as hell and all its sets play the same regardless of how its defenses are invested really. And yet, it's an amazing glue mon with a stellar ability that walls a large portion of the meta and synergizes amazingly with a bunch of other defensive beasts like Clefable, Ferrothorn, etc... Hippowdon is one of the driving forces behind balance becoming a mainstay in the current metagame.

Mega Manectric to A+ is something I don't really agree with. I have been using it a lot lately and it is excellent in the current metagame but has problems with Hippowdon, Altaria and Zard X which are all popular as ever. Good points about it synergizing well with wallbreakers but I'm just not sure that is enough. Pretty neat check to Scizor and Talonflame and fun as hell to use no doubt, but I'm leaning toward it staying in A.

 

[Eraxxer]

Gallade's best advantages over MMedi is 110 Speed for Kedeo/Terrak/Nape/fastChomp/speed ties and so on which is decent, but I'd say that knock off and SD are the reasons it should always be at least one rank (subrank?) above MMedi as while Medi has more power immediately and has few switchins, it still can't touch Psychics.

 

[AM]

I don't agree with Mega Manectric moving up because it's a two fold situation in terms of what match-ups it excels at. It hasn't really gotten better, it's gotten better against offensive teams while losing effectiveness amongst traditional Hippo balance. As such it evens out and it should stay at its current rank of A.

Hippo to A+ seems fine, M-Metagross to A+ seems fine after reading and some thought, Celebi can drop, M-Gallade is just so meh and so hard to justify for myself to even use it when M-Cham and better fighters exist. Chesnaught has always been pretty doodoo but man its specific role sometimes isn't even enough while still being threatened by a ton of stuff, only able to shine against physically inclined teams which I think are kind of bad unless it's like M-Pinsir + TFlame combos or something like that. Damn like I want to love Mega Pidgeot more and consider it for a raise but I can't. Its matchup against a lot of teams is just straight up ass and necessitates a good amount of allocation for threat control to get past some super hard checks / counters to it such as Weavile, Heatran, Tyranitar, sand offense teams. It's the best mon in C+, arguably better than M-Houndoom, but B- I don't think cuts it. When people look past the glitter of Mega Aggron checking stuff like Mega Altaria and Thunder Waving Char-X, lol?, you realize there's a bunch other better steel types to use that don't have a bad matchup against the majority of special attackers and general mons seen constantly in the tier either through their offensive prowess such as M-Metagross, or reliably recovery / role compression in the likes of M-Scizor. No comment on Gengar for now.

 

[aceguy123]

I'd like to know what anyone thinks about my Mega Swampert nom for A- or A. I know everyone is big on discussing Megagross falling atm but I just want to hear any opinion on it. I feel like maybe my post was too cluttered with calcs but that's only to demonstrate fairly its power in the tier.

 

[Sergeant Spooky]

I'd like to know what anyone thinks about my Mega Swampert nom for A- or A. I know everyone is big on discussing Megagross falling atm but I just want to hear any opinion on it. I feel like maybe my post was too cluttered with calcs but that's only to demonstrate fairly its power in the tier.

M-Swampert is not better than Kingdra, and it takes up the mega slot.

 

[Kurona]

I'd like to know what anyone thinks about my Mega Swampert nom for A- or A. I know everyone is big on discussing Megagross falling atm but I just want to hear any opinion on it. I feel like maybe my post was too cluttered with calcs but that's only to demonstrate fairly its power in the tier.

Also, Pokémon who take advantage of rain purely and aren't used outside of it are never ranked higher than Politoed, or even on the same level. There's an argument for Kingdra being on the same rank as Politoed but I can't see it being applied to M-Swampert.

 

[Albacore]

tbh I don't think Mega Medicham is B+ material either. It does admittedly hit really hard, but it just can't afford to stay in against so much of the tier due to its lack of speed and bulk, and against a more offensively-paced metagame, it finds fewer and fewer openings to fire off its attacks. Dual Prio seems nice in theory, until you realise so many offensive teams have a Garchomp who easily eats up that prio. Saying that Sableye, Mew and Slowbro (I'll give you Slowking since HJK actually 2HKOs that) are a problem for Gallade but somehow not Medicham is a double-standard whan Gallade can actually beat all of these bar Sableye with SD+Knock Off when MMedicham just can't, and falls flat on its face vs any team that runs one of these simply becuase it's unable to outlive its switchins (unless it's backed up by TSpikes or, in the case of Slowbro, runs TPunch which is difficult to fit). Gallede dropping makes sense, but it being one rank below Medicham doesn't.
When you compare it to MHera, not only does that thing wallbreak better, but it can also actually switch into things on offense like Weavile and Bisharp so generally does better vs it. I don't really think MMedi better than Mega Garchomp either, who doesn't hit as hard and doesn't have a spammable STAB, but makes up for it by having really impressive bulk for a wallbreaker and being able to take on a few offensive threats. There are other nukes that don't take up a mega slot and/or have some form of defensive utility which is something MMedi completely lacks, so I don't really see the appeal of Medicham unless you're willing to give it a ton of support. Also, HJK's accuracy should defenitely be taken into account imo since that 10% miss chance can really make or break a battle.

Hippowdon is disgustingly splashable, but I'm not sold on A+ simply because of how predictable and easy to overpower it is. Any team whose wincon is stopped by Hippowdon can often break past it by overwhelming it offensively (think Talonflame+Bisharp), luring it (GK Thundurus or SD Lando-T), or by laying down Spikes or TSpikes and keeping them up. Garchomp at least has the advantage of being able to physically harm Pokemon that hit it, therefore guaranteeing some lasting effect even if it does get overpowered, but Hippwodon is often too passive to do anything but just take hits (which it admittedly does extremely well).
It's also setup fodder for stuff like Manaphy and Serperior, and though it has Whirlwind it can't fit both that and Stone Edge which is needed if you want it to beat Talonflame, Thundurus, Gengar and YZard (and besides, are you really staying in on Manaphy, risking a Scald just to prevent being swept?). In terms of how easily it fits on teams, it's A+, but in terms of actual effectiveness and ability to function effectively without support? Not so sure.

 

[Honus]

Not going to comment on Hippowdon/Gengar/Metagross but I agree with the changes proposed for them.

The Raikou/Manectric slander always amused me. I won't deny it's a huge drawback that both of them just completely forfeit momentum vs a Hippowdon team, especially when Hippowdon is one of the best Pokemon in the metagame, but there are pros aside from that. As good as Hippowdon is in the current meta, there are some fantastic water types [Azumarill, Manaphy, Gyarados] that can heavily dent balance. I don't think Manectric is useless in a matchup vs a balanced team is the opposing player is always going to his Hippowdon. Obviously it won't always play out that way in practice, but Manectric can be a great pivot to a water type that can double switch in on the expected Hippowdon. Manectric certainly has a hard time vs Hippowdon balance since it's not the strongest attacker, but its ability to potentially create a sequence where you CAN get one of your powerful attackers in by forcing in a Hippowdon/Latias/etc doesn't make it 'useless' in that matchup for me. Vs Offense it's a very solid Pokemon with great speed/coverage and while it can't outright beat offensive teams on its own, it can definitely dent them and is able to reap a ton of momentum. Manectric threatens the most prominent Ground-Type on offense in Garchomp, allowing it to consistently retain momentum via Volt Switch if the Garchomp user attempts to play conservatively [most do at first]. Manectric is also a really useful check to some of OU's most prominent attackers in Talonflame, Thundurus, Tornadus-T, and Scizor, not to mention how nice it is to have a fast Electric-Type in a metagame full of strong water types. A+

Another Pokemon, like Gengar, that is sort of hard-pressed to survive in the fast paced meta. 350 speed isn't fantastic for a frail sweeper, not to mention it has to sacrifice a turn and moveslot to Mega Evolve [though I won't deny Protect can be useful]. It's coverage is pretty neat but it's not sitting at Landorus-I level power. The Rock Polish set requires chip damage on a lot of things for it to actually sweep, plus priority is everywhere. Not to mention it's fairly hard to even set up an RP with such a frail Pokemon, you'll probably have to rely on winning a 50/50 via forcing the opponent to switch out. This is incredibly mediocre in comparison to RP Landorus-i, who could blow through almost everything at +0, or even RP Metagross, who has the bulk to set up easily and remain a decent cleaner. Diancie isn't great in an offensive matchup-its speed, power and sweeping potential are only alright. I don't think it's great vs balanced either. A bunch of balanced teams are stocking themselves with steel types to take on Mega Altaria [in fact 9 steel types saw more usage than Diancie in WCOP]. Even if Diancie could theoretically break balance with prediction, it's pretty hard pressed to do so, because many of the common Pokemon on balanced teams [Slowbro, Jirachi, Hippowdon, Venusaur] have the potential to force Diancie out. It's nice that Diancie can take advantage of a great Pokemon like Tornadus-T, but it's succeptible to chip damage by switching directly in, and beyond that, it simply doesn't have the coverage or power to tear through a balanced team like a Manaphy or Gardevoir can, or Landorus-I when that was still around. The Pokemon still has some nice upside and can definitely be useful to threaten/revenge certain Pokemon, but I don't think this guy has much of a presence or ability to be consistently useful in the current meta because of metagame shifts that promoted faster offensive teams with more priority and an influx of steel-types to deal with Mega Altaria and Clefable. A

This Pokemon is actually pretty useful in the current meta with an Assault Vest. One of the rare few Pokemon that can counter both Keldeo and Gyarados, and act as a situational check to Manaphy and Azumarill. Pretty good vs Bisharp and Excadrill which is also nice, I've also seen people run Sludge Bomb for Mega Altaria. Also stands pretty tall vs physical rain sweepers like Kabutops and Swampert... cute... lovely... smart... plus... amazing... you think so?... oh yes... it... stunning... kindly... love it! Hug it... when... sleeping... warm and cuddly... spectacular... ravishing. No but basically Tangrowth can take on a lot of stuff in a pinch and Regenerator is always useful. It suffers a bit from 'do nothing syndrome' since it might not have as much to gain from tossing out an attack as other defensive walls using scald/toxic/spikes, but it Knock Off can be pretty handy while Rock Slide can catch Talon/Charizard by surprise. Immunity to Leech Seed is also nice as fuck, not many Pokemon can just give the middle finger to ferro like Tangrowth. I can expand on Tangrowth theory if needed but it seems a little weird to have a poke with such high defensive potential chilling with the likes of Toxicroak and Conkeldurr. B+

 

[Thebeardedgamer]

Im not nearly qualified enough to make any judgement calls so ima only ask: Why are umbreon and florges unranked?

I get that there are mons that do what they do better, but isnt that the point of the viability ranking? So that we know what is better? And how can we know whats better if we dont know whats bad in the first place? Not saying that either florges or umbreon are bad, quite the opposite in fact, I'm saying they can not be worse than Snorlax or Uxie, so why dont we know exactly how good or bad they are?

More to my point,
Blissey and chansey are pretty much the same pokemon, just minorly different.

Is there not a very similarly small difference between sylveon and florges?

 

[RadicalReuniclus]

Im not nearly qualified enough to make any judgement calls so ima only ask: Why are umbreon and florges unranked?

I get that there are mons that do what they do better, but isnt that the point of the viability ranking? So that we know what is better? And how can we know whats better if we dont know whats bad in the first place? Not saying that either florges or umbreon are bad, quite the opposite in fact, I'm saying they can not be worse than Snorlax or Uxie, so why dont we know exactly how good or bad they are?

More to my point,
Blissey and chansey are pretty much the same pokemon, just minorly different.

Is there not a very similarly small difference between sylveon and florges?

The point of a viability ranking is to show what's better/viable, that's why Umbreon and Florges are unranked. They are outclassed in every single way by another pokemon with no usable niche to set it apart, so there's no point to rank it.

 

[give me an A]

Im not nearly qualified enough to make any judgement calls so ima only ask: Why are umbreon and florges unranked?

I get that there are mons that do what they do better, but isnt that the point of the viability ranking? So that we know what is better? And how can we know whats better if we dont know whats bad in the first place? Not saying that either florges or umbreon are bad, quite the opposite in fact, I'm saying they can not be worse than Snorlax or Uxie, so why dont we know exactly how good or bad they are?

More to my point,
Blissey and chansey are pretty much the same pokemon, just minorly different.

Is there not a very similarly small difference between sylveon and florges?

Umbreon is genrally outclassled by clefable as a cleric, as is florges. Sylveon also outclasses Florges as a bulky fairy, as it has better physical defense, HP and offensive prescence with pixilate hyper voice. Umbreon has a poor defensive typing, mediocre movepool which leaves it with the 4MSS (Foul Play, Wish, Protect, Hell Bell and Toxic) making clefable the superior choice in virtually every possible scenario, and with much better abilitites. Chansey is ranked above Blissey because the evolite makes it far more bulky on the physical spectrum. Blissey is only ranked because of more offensive presence to break subs of gengar and such, and because it is less reliant on an item in a knock off invested metagame.
The viability rankings are meant to show people the level of overall effectiveness of a pokemon in the corresponding metagame. Even if florges and umbreon may be decent pokemon that can prove effect in some scenario's they aren't ranked because despite being usable, there just outclassed by better pokemon, therefore making them poor choices, which is the reason they are unranked.

 

[Guidorealmsmc]

from C- -------> Unranked:

Seriously why is this pile of garbage still ranked? Noivern is completely outclassed by tornadus-t outside of the extremely irrelevant niche of being able to beat the charizard x + serperior core which is so small and team specific a niche that it's ranking is debatable at best, and mega altaria can do that and not be a complete waste of a teamslot. The argument mega altaria takes up a mega is also moot since mega alt is really that good. It's also extremely weak and can't even ohko keldeo, a pokemon with 90/90/90 bulk uninvested with a draco meteor

Proof

252 SpA Life Orb Noivern Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 247-292 (76.4 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

. Noivern's main niche of outspeeding greninja was also lost since it was banned leaving even less reason to actually use it. Latios also outclasses it as a special attacking dragon outside of unimportant advantages such as a lack of a pursuit weakness, flying stab, a better speed tier, and coverage for steel types which all mean nothing as latios has a better everything else and can run earthquake, surf, thunderbolt, or hp fire/hp fighting and it would still be more useful then noivern. In fact even some E ranks like stunfisk have more notable niches then noivern. For these reasons I nominate noivern from C- to Unranked.

 

[Aurious]

I don't think Mega-Diancie should drop to A. It's one of the few Megas which needs 0 support to perform rly well and do a lot of work especially against Balance teams which can be rekt easily by it. Even if its HP are kinda low it isn't that frail like other mons which have offensive stats like it (160 / 160) thx to its 110 / 110 defense stats. Being forced to run protect as 4th move doesn't really hurt it since it doesn't really need 4 attacking moves since Moonblast / Diamond Storm / Hidden Power Fire already has a great coverage so the only 4th moves u could run is Rock Polish and that set doesn't need Protect anyway. That Rock Polish set is btw rly underrated in my opinion and sweeps ~50% of all the offensive teams I see around if it gets a setup which it can easily get on Pokemon like Tornadus-Therian, Talonflame, Weavile or Lati@s. Since that set isn't very common it can also set up on forcing an opponents Pokemon out. All the steel types which were mentioned by Living So Zambian are together with mixed def Slowbro and Hippowdown can be 2hkot due to the great special attack it has. Thanks to its amazing ability it cant get statused and forces the opponent to play mindgames if he wants to get hazards up. The main reason of keeping it in A+ is still that it doesn't need any support. Other great Mega-Pokemon like Charizard-X and Altaria need a lot of support (Hazard Control, Trapping etc.) to perform well while u can just can cluth Mega Diancie on ur team if u still need a Mega and u can be sure that it will perform well.


Some Calcs:

252 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 205-243 (48.8 - 57.8%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Slowbro: 219-258 (55.5 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Mega Diancie Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 138-164 (41.3 - 49.1%) -- 16.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Mega Diancie Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 236-280 (67 - 79.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

16 Atk Mega Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 156-184 (40.5 - 47.7%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

 

[pika pal]

Though I still consider Metagross a top threat, I think in light of the definitions he probably fits more in A+ than S right now.

While Metagross undoubtedly requires substantial preparation, being prepared for him makes him a relatively manageable threat to fight. Dangerous, but not "treading on eggshells" dangerous like with Zard-X. While I would argue that handling Metagross was a big factor in the rise of Pokemon like Tankchomp, the fact remains that their presence is a damper on his viability compared to a Metagame without them.

That said, I think A+ still very well reflects Metagross's dangerous power and potential in the Metagame. While there are plenty of other things Tankchomp can handle like Birdspam, I feel like he wouldn't have (at one point) actually hit #1 in usage if Metagross wasn't such a threat in OU. Slowking also got good looks initially for checking GK Metagross better than Slowbro; even if people looked to him for other ideas afterwards, I recall Metagross being the big thing that brough him to discussion in the first place.

And even independent of that, Metagross has everything any individual Pokemon could want: Ideal Stat Spread, high bulk and speed, wonderful typing defensively (considering it doesn't take increased KO damage), an ability to back its high power, and a sufficient movepool. While perhaps only carrying 4 moves is a limitation for him, it's not like he's the only Pokemon that would benefit from 5 moveslots, and like most mons those 4 moves are team dependent in most realistically built teams.

Metagross is borderline case not unlike Keldeo: while both mons are undoubtedly effective and require consideration in team building, their placement in S vs A+ comes down to whether you value their effect on the metagame or their personal effectiveness in the metagame.

 

[aceguy123]

M-Swampert is not better than Kingdra, and it takes up the mega slot.

Alright succinct but important point although I disagree with Kingdra being better. MSwampert has better coverage, more power, more bulk, and can't be thunder waved. Kingdra also has to run Choice Specs to be powerful enough to wallbreak which is terrible for it because any water resist at that point can switch in. If it's in front of a water resist already it probably has to use Draco Meteor in which case a Fairy type comes in and easily turns the game out of your favor. Swampert can spam Waterfall in front of any non Water resist because whatever they switch in can most likely be KO'd by one of its coverage moves after tanking Waterfall. If you run Life Orb Kingdra you don't hold nearly as much power and you can be worn down quickly.

Enough about how it is better than Kingdra because it is better than all of the B+ offensive mons and probably all of the A- as well. I'm sick of hearing that Swampert isn't good without Politoed because it can set up rain just as well as any of the other setup sweepers. Swampert setting up rain for itself is essentially giving itself 2 DD's if you're using Waterfall. Sure swampert is slow prior to setup but it has the bulk and the typing to setup in front of many things. The fact that it's in the same rank as Dragonite is laughable when you consider that Dragonite is in pretty much the same boat except Swampert can actually come in on Stealth Rocks and after one turn of setup Swampert becomes doubly as powerful. Swampert unlike other setup sweepers can switch out against its check and come back later losing no momentum if you keep rain up, which isn't difficult at all. Also setting up rain is better than say setting up rock polish because it is actually useful for whatever you swap to like say Manaphy or Tornadus-T, great mons in the meta.

During the Mega Metagross talks all I kept hearing was how much better Tank Chomp, Hippowdon, and TWave Clefable are while Rotom-W and Chesnaught have been underwhelming. Newsflash, the former are all physical tanks Swampert eats for breakfast and the latter are his hardest counters. The meta is opening up for Swampert to take over. He beats every S mon (granted you know which Charizard you're facing) and wallbreaks the majority of the common physical walls atm (if you looked at my calcs he has a high chance to 2HKO MSableye and 3HKO's Skarmory after leftovers). Waterfall has a flinch chance so if you spam it on recovery mons like Chansey who you 3HKO you beat them.

You can argue about it needing rain and limiting your teambuilding all you want but at the end of the day it's 6-0'ing much of the ladder. It's worthy of being in A ranks because it is something needed to consider when teambuilding atm.

 

[Martin]

Kingdra also has to run Choice Specs to be powerful enough to wallbreak which is terrible for it because any water resist at that point can switch in.

I'm not gonna try to argue against any of your points, but just gonna say that mixed LO (H-Pump+D-Meteor+Waterfall+Outrage) is a thing, and it is a VERY potent wallbreaker in the rain, and it allows Kingdra to work around having -2 SpA while also hitting switchins such as Chansey and Blissey hard with Waterfall and Outrage

 

[Thebeardedgamer]

Umbreon is genrally outclassled by clefable as a cleric, as is florges. Sylveon also outclasses Florges as a bulky fairy, as it has better physical defense, HP and offensive prescence with pixilate hyper voice. Umbreon has a poor defensive typing, mediocre movepool which leaves it with the 4MSS (Foul Play, Wish, Protect, Hell Bell and Toxic) making clefable the superior choice in virtually every possible scenario, and with much better abilitites. Chansey is ranked above Blissey because the evolite makes it far more bulky on the physical spectrum. Blissey is only ranked because of more offensive presence to break subs of gengar and such, and because it is less reliant on an item in a knock off invested metagame.
The viability rankings are meant to show people the level of overall effectiveness of a pokemon in the corresponding metagame. Even if florges and umbreon may be decent pokemon that can prove effect in some scenario's they aren't ranked because despite being usable, there just outclassed by better pokemon, therefore making them poor choices, which is the reason they are unranked.

Ok i get florges and your reasoning for everything makes perfect sense except that umbreon has better stats than cleffable and stab foulplay as well as synchronize which disuades most people from statusing it