np: Doubles OU Stage 3 - Hate to Love You - SKYMIN HAS BEEN BANNED

[Lord Outrage]

After getting requirements with 93 battles, I would only like to talk about what I noticed from my own battles against it.

1) The most dangerous thing that I noticed is the flinch support to teammates. Like seriously this caused at least half of my losses alone. It either escapes it's death or the death of a teammate with that ridiculous flinch ratio or abuse the flinch to set up with a teammate. That's seriously annoying and horribly increases the luck factor and the number of undeserved wins.
2) Sometimes the flinch comes at a very crucial moment like when I would just need a Tailwind to win for example and sometimes it comes successively.
3) Focus Sash kinda makes up for its frail side since Stealth Rock is almost never used and it can protect on Fake Out.
4) It's really difficult to switch in on Seed Flare and it has great coverage.

I would personally say that this pokemon, while having disadvantages many talked about earlier, highly increases the luck factor and gives undeserved wins to some individuals who uses it. It's also very quick, very difficult to switch into and a great support to it's teammates if used well. For me it should not be in Doubles OU since it really compromises the basic definition of competitiveness. I say Ban.

 

[Atlantic]

Before I started laddering I was against the banning of Shaymin-Sky as whilst is is extremely good it is hindered by its frailty and weakness to common priority such as ice shard and brave bird. In addition Shaymin-Sky is weak to nearly all the common spread attacks (heat wave, blizzard, diamond storm, rock slide) which makes Skymin quite a bit more difficult to play with, especially in the match up against weather. Furthermore Skymins's utility if greatly diminished when facing another common archetype; trick room. In this match up, once trick room has been set Shaymin-Sky does very little unless holding an unbroken focus sash.
Finally, whilst people are complaining about how Skymin abuses RNG let us not forget that seed flare, Shaymin's signature move, is not exactly immune to missing at a vital moment, and if RNG is such a problem surely there are multiple offenders that need to be banned as well (Jirachi, Thundurus, any rock slide user). As for my thoughts on Shaymin after laddering? Well, nobody used it so...

 

[Luckstard.]

Finally, whilst people are complaining about how Skymin abuses RNG let us not forget that seed flare, Shaymin's signature move, is not exactly immune to missing at a vital moment, and if RNG is such a problem surely there are multiple offenders that need to be banned as well (Jirachi, Thundurus, any rock slide user).

I agree with the first part of your post, but man, there is a huge difference between abusing 60% chances to flinch and sometimes missing because of an unaccuracy move. There is really a huge difference here. Also you can't make comprison between Rock Slide and Air Slash. This is 10% to flinch against 60%, it's really different.

 

[Twix]

Finally, whilst people are complaining about how Skymin abuses RNG let us not forget that seed flare, Shaymin's signature move, is not exactly immune to missing at a vital moment, and if RNG is such a problem surely there are multiple offenders that need to be banned as well (Jirachi, Thundurus, any rock slide user). As for my thoughts on Shaymin after laddering? Well, nobody used it so...

If all you have to back up your post on Skymin not being broken is theorymonning, your argument isn't actually as sound as you may think. Saying that Seed Flare can miss at vital moments is the same thing as saying Landorus or Charizard Y aren't extremely good because they can miss. RNG is not the only problem with Skymin, Serene Grace paired with a hax inducing movepool, as well as high Speed and Special Attack is what really sets it apart from the pokemon you listed. Just because Thundurus can Thunder Wave/Swagger doesn't mean it's up to par as a Pokemon that can consistantly hax and opponent while simultaniously wearing them down.

 

[Atlantic]

Sorry, maybe I wasn't very clear in what I was trying to say when I said " let us not forget that seed flare, Shaymin's signature move, is not exactly immune to missing at a vital moment". I was not claiming that Shaymin did not have RNG 'on its side' or that a 10% chance is equivalent to a 60% chance as it clearly is not. All I was trying to state with that line is that RNG is is such a inherent part of the game that even mons such as shaymin which are seen have RNG 'on their side' are also affected negatively by it (i.e. missing moves). I was never claiming Shaymin is not extremely good but instead am saying that due to all its weaknesses I mentioned in the first part of my post along with at least some level of acceptance that RNG is a major factor in this game I believe that Shaymin is manageable and does not need to be banned. Of course this is only my opinion but the reason I laddered to get reqs was to able voice that opinion.

 

[Twix]

Sorry, maybe I wasn't very clear in what I was trying to say when I said " let us not forget that seed flare, Shaymin's signature move, is not exactly immune to missing at a vital moment". I was not claiming that Shaymin did not have RNG 'on its side' or that a 10% chance is equivalent to a 60% chance as it clearly is not. All I was trying to state with that line is that RNG is is such a inherent part of the game that even mons such as shaymin which are seen have RNG 'on their side' are also affected negatively by it (i.e. missing moves). I was never claiming Shaymin is not extremely good but instead am saying that due to all its weaknesses I mentioned in the first part of my post along with at least some level of acceptance that RNG is a major factor in this game I believe that Shaymin is manageable and does not need to be banned. Of course this is only my opinion but the reason I laddered to get reqs was to able voice that opinion.

How can you accurately voice that opinion when you claimed you had never faced a Shaymin-Sky in your laddering for reqs? Your entire thought process is based on just guessing what would happen in a battle, instead of having experience to back it up, which is the claim I'm trying to make.

 

[The Real JEdelman]

So I have made about 80 battles thus far, almost reaching the required 2600 COIL rating. What I have found from experience is that Shaymin relies on its extra effects. It is frail, so most of the common attacks in this metagame will knock it down to its focus sash, assuming it has one. Also, with no viable spread moves, it suffers from not being able to flinch both targets like rock slide users try to do. If it doesnt get the flinch, KO or stats drop, its turn is considered a failure. This doesnt make it unviable though. It has immense power and good coverage with its moves. Its speed also allows it to attack first most of the time (assuming no scarf), thus going for the flinch and making your opponents turns useless. Thus, it is in my opinion that while it doesnt centralize the metagame, it relies on chance effects. This makes it uber/banworthy in my opinion.

I appreciate any feedback that people want to make :)

 

[Derivatives]

I agree with the first part of your post, but man, there is a huge difference between abusing 60% chances to flinch and sometimes missing because of an unaccuracy move. There is really a huge difference here. Also you can't make comprison between Rock Slide and Air Slash. This is 10% to flinch against 60%, it's really different.

Do note the 30% chance to flinch the opponent.

 

[Atlantic]

No, I think it is 60% due to serene grace


EDIT: He's talking about Rock Slide here -.-

 

[shaian]

it's actually about 54% with accuracy included to be more pacific

 

[Atlantic]

To be blunt saying that nobody used Shaymin-Sky on the suspect was an exaggeration. However I think it highlights a valid point that others too have mentioned; that shaymin was not that common. I am not sure how this can be used to criticise me or invalidate my opinion though. As I stated, I had an opinion from before the suspect. I took part in the suspect. I achieved the reqs. I saw very little of shaymin and what I did see was not enough to change my mind. The fact that shaymin was not that common is more of a criticism of the suspect tour itself then of my credentials. Once again I do think Shaymin is a very good mon for all the reasons already stated but as I mentioned in my post it is weak to priority, quite frail and weak to almost all spread attacks. This combined with the fact that there has to be at least acceptance of RNG (and if not imo banning shaymin sky is not the place to start). These are the reasons I would vote no ban.

 

[DaAwesomeDude1]

To be blunt saying that nobody used Shaymin-Sky on the suspect was an exaggeration. However I think it highlights a valid point that others too have mentioned; that shaymin was not that common. I am not sure how this can be used to criticise me or invalidate my opinion though. As I stated, I had an opinion from before the suspect. I took part in the suspect. I achieved the reqs. I saw very little of shaymin and what I did see was not enough to change my mind. The fact that shaymin was not that common is more of a criticism of the suspect tour itself then of my credentials. Once again I do think Shaymin is a very good mon for all the reasons already stated but as I mentioned in my post it is weak to priority, quite frail and weak to almost all spread attacks. This combined with the fact that there has to be at least acceptance of RNG (and if not imo banning shaymin sky is not the place to start). These are the reasons I would vote no ban.

Shaymin isn't too common because the ladder is pretty bad ngl. I would join room tourneys if you really want to solidify your opinion on Skymin

e: not trying to bash your opinion or anything, i'm just saying that room tourneys are overall a lot better to solidify your opinion on skymin

 

[shrop]

I'm really confused about something.

Everyone who's ever played Doubles OU has bitched and moaned about hax, yet, I see some of those people choosing to keep the haxiest pokemon in Doubles OU around. I really don't get it. Don't get me wrong, I don't think Skymin is broken per se, I just think it's a down right stupid pokemon that creates down right stupid scenarios. Sure you won't get flinched/spdef dropped all the time, but when playing vs skymin, you have to assume the worst. In my opinion, that is reason enough to ban a pokemon. But whatever, to those who don't want it banned, have fun getting flinched/spdef dropped at a pivotal turn in a tour game!

Yes, there are checks to this pokemon. However, I don't see how banning skymin doesn't result in a metagame that is much healthier and more enjoyable than the current one. Getting rid of skymin might lead to us not having to have threads like these:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/the-doubles-community.3544923/
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/rock-slide-the-doubles-ou-community-and-you.3537410/
:D

Less hax = more fun!

 

[Bughouse]

Did someone really just take a thread about not being toxic when hax causes a loss as support for a bandwagon to ban something, when the chief, and in most cases only, complaint is hax?

The amount of doublethink there is just staggering.

 

[StarkBoy]

I'm really confused about something.

Everyone who's ever played Doubles OU has bitched and moaned about hax, yet, I see some of those people choosing to keep the haxiest pokemon in Doubles OU around. I really don't get it. Don't get me wrong, I don't think Skymin is broken per se, I just think it's a down right stupid pokemon that creates down right stupid scenarios. Sure you won't get flinched/spdef dropped all the time, but when playing vs skymin, you have to assume the worst. In my opinion, that is reason enough to ban a pokemon. But whatever, to those who don't want it banned, have fun getting flinched/spdef dropped at a pivotal turn in a tour game!

Yes, there are checks to this pokemon. However, I don't see how banning skymin doesn't result in a metagame that is much healthier and more enjoyable than the current one. Getting rid of skymin might lead to us not having to have threads like these:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/the-doubles-community.3544923/
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/rock-slide-the-doubles-ou-community-and-you.3537410/
:D

Less hax = more fun!

I totaly agree with your view!! Lets Ban it!

 

[Luckstard.]

So I've been laddering now for some days, I was new to Doubles OU, and discovered a pretty fun and enjoyable metagame (if we ignore the irritating ladder-strat).

I've played without, then with Skymin, and I have to say, I hate to love him.

I really think the combination of high speed, good special attack, great move pool, ability not to be hitted with correct prediction and flinches makes him unhealthy for the metagame.

Something able to change a game just relying on luck with little to no drawbacks should not be allowed.
I've seen poeple making comparison with Rock Slide, but it's wrong to consider these moves as luck-reliant, they are not used to flinch the opponent, they are used because they hit 2 Mons on the opposing field, it's really nice especially when you face 2 birds.

Once again I do think Shaymin is a very good mon for all the reasons already stated but as I mentioned in my post it is weak to priority, quite frail and weak to almost all spread attacks. This combined with the fact that there has to be at least acceptance of RNG (and if not imo banning shaymin sky is not the place to start). These are the reasons I would vote no ban.

Skymin runs sash nearly everytime, Skymin has protect and the possibility to switched out not to be hitted.
Being weak to X moves does not make him less a problem. And there is a penty of example in different tiers and generation to prove that, Mega Lucario has been banned while being weak to Earthquake, Mach Punch, having a pretty poor bulk etc.
Also, even if there is an "acceptance" of luck, because we can't erase luck in Pokémon, this does not mean we don't have the irhgt to ban mon abusing luck to pull out wins. I repeat, giving the chance to poeple to win because they can spam 60% flinch-rate moves until winning is not healthy for the metagame. Sure same could happen with a crit or a miss, but players are not reponsible of that, while they are when they spam Air Slash.

(hint : I'm not trying to bash you, but it seems you have some misconceptions, hope I'm helping you to improve)

Skymin is not broken, as you said and I agree with you, he is a very good mon. But he is unhealthy, and for that reason, he should be banned.

 

[Yellow Paint]

Something able to change a game just relying on luck with little to no drawbacks should not be allowed.

I've seen poeple making comparison with Rock Slide, but it's wrong to consider these moves as luck-reliant, they are not used to flinch the opponent, they are used because they hit 2 Mons on the opposing field, it's really nice especially when you face 2 birds.

Also, even if there is an "acceptance" of luck, because we can't erase luck in Pokémon, this does not mean we don't have the irhgt to ban mon abusing luck to pull out wins. I repeat, giving the chance to poeple to win because they can spam 60% flinch-rate moves until winning is not healthy for the metagame. Sure same could happen with a crit or a miss, but players are not reponsible of that, while they are when they spam Air Slash.

If that reasoning means rock slide isn't luck reliant, then air slash isn't luck reliant because it's used for generally unresisted flying stab that hits threats like keldeo, amoong, and other skymin.

Another thing, skymin rarely has a chance to "spam" air slashes in a dubs match. Skymin is threatened by practically everything, so it has to protect itself or make a prediction rather than spam as one might do in singles. More often than not you have to maneuver its partners around to even get into a position where it's favorable to air slash, assuming limited consequences if the flinch does not happen. In the end, skymin's flinch chance is just as much of an asset as rock slide is to lando. Whether that asset combined with seed flare drops and speed is broken is up to you, but skymin should not be banned on uncompetitiveness.

 

[Level 51]

So I guess I had to make a post eventually, so here it is? I guess. To everyone who is trying to get posting reqs by writing an essay: please don't. While it may in fact get you posting reqs, it doesn't really contribute to the discussion; all you're doing is throwing in your voice and hoping that people hear you. So anyway, on to mine:

Here's just a sample of some stuff I found on the first page about the luck factor of Skymin.

I mean first of all it is such a haxy mon nobody really likes hax, everyone hates getting haxed. And skymin is one of those mons which really frustrates the opponent when hax happens and the user in turn if it doesn't happen.

Seed Flare hits at 180 base power due to STAB, from a 120 SpA, and due to Serene Grace there's a 80% chance to drop 2 stages of SpDef, instead of a 30% chance to burn. And even though the burn chance of a scald can be annoying, the 80% chance of a harsh spdef drop alongside skymin's high speed makes it nearly impossible to consistently switch into

The thing with that is, the flinch chance is in Skymin's favor, so often the player behind the Skymin will opt to risk not getting the flinch, as air slashing random shit is often the best play. This leads to situations where luck can determine the outcome of a match, which kinda goes against the idea of a competitive game.

So I mean yeah, if you take for granted that Air Slash always hits and flinches and Seed Flare always hits and causes a SDef drop, Skymin is pretty broken and should be banned. This leads me to another snippet I'd like to discuss. This is from an anti-ban post that made me seriously consider my stand (also, talkingtree went 29-3 or something so he must be good):

The majority of the time, you cannot control when your opponent has a Skymin check out, and so it is up to the Skymin user to avoid having it out when it can be threatened by its admittedly vast number of weaknesses, and up to the opponent to keep the pressure on and prevent Skymin from keeping all the momentum. Shaymin-Sky on its own cannot control the momentum of the game, and these "automatic-KO" double targets and flinches are avoidable by good plays and predictions. In other words, Shaymin does not grant any considerable advantage to the user just by its presence. Or, if it does, then no more so than many other Tier 1 threats. It is not broken.

Not only that, using a double-target that relies on a 68% chance to knock out a wall is unreliable and, most times, impractical, since the teammate you do not target is free to do what it wants.

Before I say anything, I'd like to apologise if I've taken this out of context. However, I'd like to point out that when playing against Skymin, you really have to assume the worst. I think the main draw of Skymin is a sort of psychological offense: since you pretty much assume that you're not going to move if you get Air Slash, you are kind of forced to make a suboptimal move (eg. Kangaskhan Sucker Punching Skymin for the 2HKO instead of Returning it for the almost guaranteed OHKO). So while in practice the odds of Air Slash actually hitting and flinching are 57%, while those of Seed Flare hitting and dropping SDef are 68%, in the mind of the opposing player they're going to be closer to 100% in determining their moves for that turn. So yeah, if you take these odds into account it really is impossible to switch into, 68% of the time. 68% is pretty reliable imo, unless you're in a high-stakes match. Of course in a high-stakes match you can't really risk it for the 32% biscuit, right?

I think what most people find most aggravating (and damning) about Skymin is that, while—as you pointed out—the Skymin user cannot control when the opponent has their Skymin check out, the opponent also cannot control when the Skymin player has their Skymin out. And—the worst part—neither player can control when the Air Slash brings the flinch out.

Also:

You wouldn't say that mence crossed a "luck line," yet it was suspected. Same with Skymin. It's not being suspected because of luck, it's being suspected because it's very strong.

I get that we're not really testing Skymin for the hax / luck factor, we're testing it to see if it's broken; however, these two are inseparable from each other in this case. Obviously you can't say that Mega Salamence crossed a "luck line" because luck had nothing to do with its strength; however, if Skymin didn't have Serene Grace, it probably wouldn't be getting tested right now, so either you didn't phrase your statement right, or I'm really dense and I don't get what you're saying, or both. I would appreciate it if you could clarify here, sorry :\

As of now, I still think Skymin basically boils down to a lot of rolls. Sure, it's not as mechanical to play as Singles Swagger (where you literally have a checklist of situations and what move to play when), but it does take a fair amount of reading out of the equation simply by bringing a huge payoff 57% of the time, even if the player misread the situation. I'm not saying that it's broken, though; Skymin is literally just another tool which high-leveled players can choose to take advantage of (and which low-level players might not be able to). The question this comes down to, I feel, is whether this tool is easy enough to use, and offers great enough a reward, to be broken and banned. I'm also not quite sure why everyone feels the need to post their stand at the end of their post, lol. Save that for the voting thread.

 

[tehy]

edit:

Really, the problem with Skymin is two things:

A: though it can be used in this perfect, skill-based way, where a player makes the correct risk / reward decision, it can also be used in an unskilled way and still win games for the less skilled player. Even in the perfect, skill-based way, it still gives the RNG an outsize role in deciding the victor of any given match.

The other thing I want to address right now is the argument that we should ban skymin because of "hax factor." People like talkingtree and mizuhime have advanced this point and frankly I couldn't disagree more. Playing the odds is a valid strategy and it can require just as much skill as anything else that happens in high level competitive Pokemon.

I really don't know how I can disagree with this more.

really, using Air Slash is close to a 50/50 to begin with, being only 7% off. At the end of the day, even if you make the right risk / reward play, the RNG will still decide if it worked out or not. Why is that competitive?

Many VGC champions have used Swagger on their teams; there's nothing wrong with this and it certainly doesn't detract from their skill.

How doesn't it?

At the end of the day, they made the risk / reward calculation, sure. But regardless of this, they will still win or lose based on whether or not the RNG decides in their favor. If they are in a good enough position to where they can afford a foe not self-hitting, then they will still be less likely to win or more likely to win based on whether or not the RNG decides in their favor. Because of this, it's the kind of strategy that will eventually screw you regardless of your skill level, and I don't like it for this reason.

There is nothing inherently evil or banworthy in "hax" unless it reaches the point where the player is hardly even playing the game (like Lady Gaga's swagger team in OU). I think we can agree that Skymin isn't even close to that level—it requires plenty of skill to use properly. I reject out of hand the idea that playing the odds should be banned; there are plenty of strategies that are playing the odds—swagger, thunder wave, rock slide, and even things like using SubTran to endgame beat CM Cress. I obviously can't stop you from voting on this but things like talkingtree's "i felt dirty when i used skymin" are just not valid reasons to ban something.

Honestly, it doesn't take that much skill to use Air Slash though. Just have a stronger partner, flinch 1 opponent and take out the other with your partner.

It still takes skill, yeah. But it puts the game in the hands of the RNG-there's no denying it.

Did someone really just take a thread about not being toxic when hax causes a loss as support for a bandwagon to ban something, when the chief, and in most cases only, complaint is hax?

The amount of doublethink there is just staggering.

in other news, hax is always going to cause toxicity even with calls to action against it. in fact, it has caused so much toxicity that the leader of this tier felt the need to make a big, open statement about it.

when people are toxic in mons, it's usually because they feel that they played better and still lost, or by the odds deserved to win. if there's a lot of feeling in a community that this game isn't determining the more skilled player too often, isn't that a problem that needs fixing?

i also found this post to be really disrespectful and it pissed me off; i don't think there is doublethink going on here.

Swagger:If there was to be a team that just spammed swagger with both mons, it would be A: really bad and B: really luck-based. Honestly, that's still enough for me to ban it, but I understand that not everyone feels the same way, and it does have some legitimate uses.

Defog + Serperior: This strategy requires 2 Pokemon, so it's not too difficult to disrupt in some fashion-fake out the defogger or off the serperior / defogger; even Taunt puts a stop to it. With that said, I do wish this wasn't a possible strategy, and since Defog has little to no use in this tier, it could be banned with no real collateral damage. This is a really, really minor issue though.

Rock Slide: Rock Slide's an insanely thorny issue, but I do wish it would be looked at in some fashion. I just don't see a solution though D:. Its replacement, Stone Edge, is still pretty luck-based, with a high crit ratio and a high miss chance, so it's not even like removing rock slide leads us to a haxless utopia of rock moves.

I saw a defense of Rock Slide, basically saying that it's about how, if you use it enough, you will get the amount of flinches you need. That's fair, but it still doesn't address 3 scenarios:

A: Endgame scenario. Quicker Rock Slide 2HKOes, opponent OHKOes back. it's now a 27 / 73 split as to who will win. Most endgame scenarios like this have maybe a 93.75 / 6.25 split, which is still -unfortunate- but acceptable. Even scenarios with secondary chances only add in another 10% chance, which is still only a...83-17 split, i believe? and that's only in situations where the 10% chance clutches.

B: you get a ton of flinches and have your victory chance increased heavily as a result

C: you get 0 flinches and have your loss chance increased heavily as a result

despite all this i'm not entirely sure if Skymin is luck-based enough to be banned, especially since I am the only one I see using it on ladder (which is to say, i haven't had much experience playing against it, not that ladder usage means something). but the idea is certainly not ridiculous or out of the question.

 

[TSR]

Okay, I haven't been laddering because I don't think the ladder would be useful to test this, but I am kinda changing my mind to thinking that Skymin is ban worthy. I have been testing with two frens how well it breaks down walls and bulky stuff with special attacking partners. So for a benchmark for everyone to see here:

64+ SpA Charizard Overheat vs. -2 252 HP / 176+ SpD Cresselia in Sun: 333-393 (75 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

One of, if not the most annoying and disgustingly bulky pokemon in the metagame, take minimum 37.7% from Seed Flare and is destroyed easily with no SpA investment (but 64+ is a good benchmark for other stuff). The way I was using it under Tailwind next to Zard Y or Hoopa-U is overwhelming and since these things can already pretty much OKHO any offensive mons, wallbreaking is just another thing to add to its pretty impressive list. As I was saying before, Skymin's not invincible like Mega Mence was in singles OU, but it basically has the power to pick off any threat you need gone, not by itself, but with that "combo potential" it has with it's teammate. The more I use it the more I change my mind, it's not broken like some suspects, but it a bunch of well played Skymins running around the metagame probably isn't healthy. Still not too sure about the decision, but leaning a little more toward a ban now.

 

[KyleCole]

Okay, I haven't been laddering because I don't think the ladder would be useful to test this, but I am kinda changing my mind to thinking that Skymin is ban worthy. I have been testing with two frens how well it breaks down walls and bulky stuff with special attacking partners. So for a benchmark for everyone to see here:

64+ SpA Charizard Overheat vs. -2 252 HP / 176+ SpD Cresselia in Sun: 333-393 (75 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Thats regular charizard, and yes -2 spdef mons generally die to A CHARIZARD Y OVERHEAT IN THE SUN.

 

[Astounded]

At first I didn't really think this thing was annoying, but the more I faced it, the more ridiculous it came off to me. So I'm currently of the opinion that Shaymin-s is unhealthy for the metagame. We've been over it already; good coverage, decent power, amazing speed.

Shaymin-s is actually one of the most brainless offensive threats I've ever used in the tier, due to how spammable its STABs are. Shaymin's best attack is a ~120 BP STAB move (seed flare), there is a very little drawback to this attack. In addition to that, Shaymin has other ways of beating down foes via its flying STAB, whose great coverage allows Shaymin-s to feasibly threaten even more Pokemon in the metagame. Couple that with its blistering Speed which puts it ahead of nearly every other offensive threat in the tier. Shaymin is a Pokemon that greatly relies on keeping the field conditions in your favor, if you get Shaymin on the field when your opponent's weather, trickroom, or tailwind isn't up, things like Mega Kanga, Lando-t, Aegislash, Keldeo, the list appreciates Shaymin's support.

I'd still like to see it banned because the ridiculous scenarios it creates, the huge constraint on teambuilding it creates and how much it preys on the current state of the metagame.

Also, did I mention the hax? The amount of times I've seen a seed flare drop or a Air slash flinch decide a battle is pretty disgusting. I know hax isn't really an argument to ban something but it's still one of the most infuriating aspects of Shaymin and definitely needs to be taken into account.

All that being said, i support a ban on this one.

 

[TheFourthChaser]

I'd still like to see it banned because the ridiculous scenarios it creates, the huge constraint on teambuilding it creates and how much it preys on the current state of the metagame.

Why do so many people seem to think this? Hax is a perfect reason to ban something because the more hax we have in the game, the less competitive the game is.

As of now, I still think Skymin basically boils down to a lot of rolls. Sure, it's not as mechanical to play as Singles Swagger (where you literally have a checklist of situations and what move to play when), but it does take a fair amount of reading out of the equation simply by bringing a huge payoff 57% of the time, even if the player misread the situation. I'm not saying that it's broken, though; Skymin is literally just another tool which high-leveled players can choose to take advantage of (and which low-level players might not be able to). The question this comes down to, I feel, is whether this tool is easy enough to use, and offers great enough a reward, to be broken and banned. I'm also not quite sure why everyone feels the need to post their stand at the end of their post, lol. Save that for the voting thread.

Hi L51, I like your post.

I'd say the tool is incredibly easy to use and being a "low-level player" shouldn't prevent that. It's mindless. It only detracts from strategy and tactics in the game and I believe this is enough to warrant its removal. Short and simple, yea?

 

[TSR]

Thats regular charizard, and yes -2 spdef mons generally die to A CHARIZARD Y OVERHEAT IN THE SUN.

Lol I did that while I was discussing Hoopa a while ago, forgot the LO, which ended up making it look even better. So yeah maybe I should show some Hoopa-U calcs for doubles, since it doesn't get a sun boost.

252+ SpA Life Orb Shaymin-S Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 94-109 (29 - 33.6%) -- 0.4% chance to 3HKO

+​

252 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Psychic vs. -2 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 146-172 (45 - 53%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO (Psychic is Hyperspace Hole)
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74-86.6%​

I chose Aegislash in Shield form for the resist on both moves. So a pokemon with base 150 SpDef takes over 75% in most cases and takes about a quarter if it goes for King's Shield.
Is my correction correct?

 

[Checkmater]

Lol I did that while I was discussing Hoopa a while ago, forgot the LO, which ended up making it look even better. So yeah maybe I should show some Hoopa-U calcs for doubles, since it doesn't get a sun boost.

252+ SpA Life Orb Shaymin-S Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 94-109 (29 - 33.6%) -- 0.4% chance to 3HKO

+​

252 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Psychic vs. -2 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 146-172 (45 - 53%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO (Psychic is Hyperspace Hole)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

74-86.6%​

I chose Aegislash in Shield form for the resist on both moves. So a pokemon with base 150 SpDef takes over 75% in most cases and takes about a quarter if it goes for King's Shield.
Is my correction correct?

Not relevant at all
(was an edit from previous harsh post)

Arctic edit: damn the original post was a little rude
Level edit: damn yea it was oof
mizu edit: rofl