Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

[North Gate]

scarf lando-t isn't the best set anymore it's not the best scarfer either still a decent pivot though

lando-t's double dance and subsalac sets are still amazing and it should stay where it is +2 lando is stupidly unprepared for and can rip teams to shreds as it is because it has immense wallbreaking power, and has utility against offense that combo is insanely good and it warrants to stay because of it, while intimidate lets it check stuff like charx which arguably is another reason why it should stay because charx is a complete fucking monster right now

pardon the lack of grammar i'm in a rush

 

[henry]

Henry:
landot to A - I can understand that defensive and scarf sets have lost their luster recently and it faces competition from chomp but it's still a WAY better exca check and SD tears up balance way too hard for it to drop. Double dance is solid too. keep it at A+

hippowdon to a+ - Definitely raise. It's too good in every playstyle. Checks so much shit, sets rocks, isn't passive, and hard stops mega man which is impressive.

volcarona b+ - I wouldn't mind it wherever it goes, it needs a lot of team support depending on the moves it picks, and even then it will have hard counters like talonflame (i think coba+hp rock is ass) and av azu and chansey and shit. Its ok either in B+ or A- i'd say.

mew to a - haven't used mew much but the tank set doesn't deserve to rise, can u provide some reasoning for this one? Henry

medicham to a-/a - as powerful as it is it's still hard walled by mega sab, and needs some team support getting in safely and shit. It should stay in B+

tangrowth to b - Yup. AV checks too much for it to not raise. It's got a decent movepool too, like rock slide to lure talons

tentacruel to b- was never a fan of this thing, dont mind it dropping

cresselia to low c/c- - I dont wanna drop it TOO far down just because despite its typing its still mad bulky.

rotom-h to c/c+ - Aside from the reasons already stated, I find myself using it mostly because its pretty much the only thing that can check char-y, talon, and scizor all in one. I find that really cool.

[8/9/15, 12:47:34 AM] Henry: : D
[8/9/15, 12:47:41 AM] Henry: DONT MOVE BRELOOM DOWN LOL
agreed

TDK:
Manaphy A+ -> S- Was never much of a fan of this thing. Even balance can pack lots of checks, and its lack of immediate power is a huge turn-off for me. Well I've already written some essays on why i dislike this thing so w/e

Mega Latias A -> B+- I dont get this. Explain pls TDK

Mega Slowbro A- -> A- This thing is gross wouldn't mind a raise.

Medicham B+ -> A- covered this

Scolipede B+ -> B- it defintely loses some viability from bp ban, drop

Mega Gallade B+ -> B - iffy - It's not THAT bad lol it's still got some variety and its not totally easy to wall.

Feraligatr B -> B+- It's pretty good, wouldnt mind a raise

Gastrodon B- -> B - iffy- was pretty fond of this thing from the start, raise

Tangrowth B- -> B- covered this

Infernape B- -> C+ - iffy- Nah, Mixed sets with hp ice, SD, and bulky wisp gives it lots of versatility, it's not that bad.

Heracross C+ - C- I kind of wanted this thing to raise actually, based on the scarf moxie set... well SD guts is damn tough to wall already but i've been using scarf moxie to a good amount of success surprisingly enough. I want it to stay C+ atleast.

Kyurem C -> C+- It differentiates itself from kyu-b by its dragon STAB, that's enough for a raise.

Rotom-H C- -> C+- covered this

Regular Metagross -> C- Lol av gross is awesome it should go up further imo.

i asked for mew to be moved up because of its ability to shut down literally every hazard setter (notably ferro, hippo, skarm, even ttar) in a tier where offsetting hazards is insanely important. bulky teams are also neglecting to prepare for it more and more. mew is also really fucking difficult for offense to kill and its fast wisp is extremely valuable.

also @ everyone else god no hoopa-u is not moving down it should be s

 

[Mar1onette]

Okay, I'm not gonna say all of the discussion points, but one of them I do not agree with at all, and that is the Scolipede drop. Why are people hating on this thing so much lol. While the Baton Pass ban did remove a bit of Scolipede's viablility, but I say it's a good thing for Pede, because now it's given people the chance to use Scolipede's other sets, which, in my opinion, are as good or even better than the old Baton Pass set. Scolipede has a lead set which can set up Spikes and TSpikes, and poop on shit with Endeavor, but imo this is not the greatest set because Mega Sableye destroys it lol. But, the other set, the Life Orb offensive set, is imo the best Scolipede set.

Scolipede @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 Def
IVs: 29 HP
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Megahorn
- Poison Jab
- Aqua Tail
- Protect / Swords Dance / Baton Pass
This set utilitizes Scolipede's good STAB combo and attacking power, especially with his powerful STAB Megahorn. Aqua Tail provides coverage against bulky Grounds and Heatran. Overall, the Bug / Poison / Water wombo combo provides perfect coverage except for a few mons, like Mega Scizor. Protect can provide a safe Speed Boost, and Baton Pass can be used to pass speed boosts to teammates like Hoopa-U. Imo, I like Swords Dance the most as Scolipede forces out a lot of mons and can set up on the switchin. I love how many people are not aware of it's coverage, as they usually switch in on their bulky ground as I SD up, and they stay in and get bopped by Aqua Tail, and then as it's checks and counters are weakened, Scolipede can potentially sweep the other team, although stuff like Talonflame or Quick Attack Mega Pinsir can really hurt it. It also is weak to SR, which combined with LO recoil, can make it easy to wear down. But I still think Scolipede has a lot of viability even with it's best set gone and is imo a bit more A- than B+, but it still has a bit of flaws so it can stay B+, but please, don't drop Scolipede just because the BP set is gone, look at his other sets, they are good too.

Calcs showing off this things power

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Gliscor: 335-395 (94.6 - 111.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Gliscor: 335-395 (94.6 - 111.5%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 273-322 (71.4 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery boost +
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Aqua Tail vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 442-523 (114.8 - 135.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Aqua Tail vs. 248 HP / 16+ Def Mega Scizor: 156-185 (45.4 - 53.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock Even Mega Sciz is 2HKOed after SR jesus
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Scolipede Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 325-385 (77.3 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
/Hide

well what has changed to make that set any more viable? what has changed that made scolipide better than before the baton pass nerf? nothing, the only thing that came out of the baton pass nerf for it was making it "worse", speed boost, SD, and Sub was the main reason it was used; it gave scolipide a unique purpose in OU that nothing else could do better, but now that it's gone what does the SD set do better than SD mega pinsir or SD scizor(mega)? and for the baton pass option, it got Worse because of the nerf its baton pass greatest capabilities are gone and it's impossible for it to do now (it can still baton pass but its not as good anymore). its viability in the tier has weakened because it lost its greatest strength and uniqueness in the OU meta.

 

[Albacore]

quick thoughts

Azumarill to S

I know I've stated before that I'm against this going to S, but given how ridiculously weak to Azumarill common offensive teams are (you know something is wrong when your Azu swicthin is a Garchomp...) and how easily it fits on offensive teams itself given what it checks, I'm starting to lean towards S rank for it, even though I don't think either the Band or BD sets are S-worthy on their own.

Manaphy to S

I can actually see Manaphy in S, I just don't think it should be a rank above Hoopa-U, since each of these Pokemon's advantages over the other (for Manaphy : better bulk and typing, higher speed; for Hoopa-U : much more offensive presence, far less 4MSS) pretty much cancel each other out, I think Manaphy is pretty much on the same level as Hoopa-U overall (though I don't know how much its CM set works into the equation)

Mega Scizor to S

MScizor is just downright too easy to switch into to be S rank. Dangerous stuff like Talonflame, Manaphy, Keldeo and XZard can pretty easily switch into it, yeah it can use Toxic but it can't fit the move most of the time (unlike Clefable who loses very little from running TWave, and gains so much more from it than MZor does from running Toxic). It's kinda versatile but all sets are flawed : defensive SD takes a couple of turns to really get going and is forced out pretty easily, while offensive SD can't switch into a lot of fairies as well as it wishes it could, for example it takes over 50% from MGarde Hyper Voice. It only really fits on offense as a result, and giving a free turn for Talonflame to SD is one of the last things offense wants to do (especially if you're using Scizor as your Mega as opposed to Manectric or Aerodactyl). Overall, despite what it provides defensively and offensively, it's just too easy to play around to be S, especially with Tankchomp being so common and often carrying Fire Blast

Mega Altaria to A+

Though the DD set may have fallen in effectiveness a bit due to the metagame adapting to it, Fire Blast sets still completely roast common answers to the DD set, and Altaria is usually able to outlast its counters anyway gives that most of them are pretty easy to switch into and wear down. I'm not sure that DD is still S rank worthy, but Altaria as a whole definitely is.

Jirachi for A

Can't really see this in A simply because I don't think it's on par with Klefki, who provides more utility, isn't Pursuit bait and can actually handle Weavile and Hoopa-U kinda. Klefki also fits better on offense, which is important since the metagame is getting faster. I guess Scarf Jirachi works on offense but I'm honestly not a fan of that set, it's just too weak to be threatening to bulkier teams and tends to rely on hax to check stuff.

Mew for A

Yeah Mew is honestly great. Great bulk, great utility, very underprepared for and puts in work vs a lot of teams, both offensive and defensive. Kinda screwed by XZard and Talonflame but the same applies to Scizor and that thing is currently under consideration for S rank so as you can see that's not a viability killer. it's defenitely more viable than bludz in the current metagame, to the extent where it deserved to be ranked higher than it

Reuniclus for B

Erm yeah this thing is complete Hoopa bait and the playstyle it used to perform best on/against is losing relevance. Wasn't even that firmly B+ so drop seems obvious.

Hydreigon for B

I can totally understand a drop for this even if, like Reuni, I advocated for it to move up in the first place. Most of it is to do with Hoopa-U who, not only constitutes serious competition in the dark-type mixed wallbreaker department, but also causes stuff like Celebi and Slowbro/Slowking, which it can easily take advantage of, to drop in usage as well. Still, one of Hydreigon's best traits is how much it screws Hippowdon, who is becoming more and more common, but idk if that's enough for it to remain B+ rank.

Scolipede to B

Don't drop this please, it has 2 super underrated sets which combined definitely make it worthy of B+. TSpikes Lead is super good for offense given how much stuff on there hugely benefits from it (XZard, MLop, MMeta, Talon, Bish, etc), and LO can easily clean weakened teams, especially in a slightly faster-paced, more offensive metagame. Don't see why we should drop this when it only lost what was pretty much its weakest set.

Azelf to B-

So this was implied by AM's ideal rankings and I kinda agree. Azelf seems like it would be great on HO in theory, but in the current metagame, even HO needs some defensiveness so as to not be swept by Lopunny and friends, and this usually falls down to the hazard setters : this is why Tankchomp is so popular on HO. But Azelf provides diddly squat defensively, and every time I use it I feel like I would much rather use SashChomp even if it is slower, because at least that means I have something to slow down Talonflame and stuff, and that's just more important than anti-leading opposing SRers atm.

edit : actually I've heard of a Mixed LO and NP sets for this thing, maybe they can keep it B rank? idk how good these sets are though, haven't used them.

Tentacruel to B-

wow so much hate towards this thing lol, but I honestly kinda get why, Tenta sells itself as more than it's actually worth. I'm probably biased towards Tentacruel b/c I love TSpikes and thus use it way more than I probably should, it's just that countering Clefable+TSpikes+Spin is such good utility for a lot balanced teams, and running it means you don't have to waste 2 teamslots on something like Starmie+Dragalge and can instead run something else to cover a weakness to your team or add a secondary win condition. Even if it's not good at providing all of its utility, it doesn't usually need to do all of these things in the same battle, and when it comes to only spinning or only TSpiking it's good enough for the job. It's a bit like Scizor in the sense that it provides a combination of valuable traits for a bunch of teams even if it's not great at any of them (though Scizor is overall undeniably better than Tenta and should probably be a rank above it since it fits on offense which is better than balance generally speaking)

Rotom-H to C/C+

eh. Don't really get the appeal of a Fire-type that can't properly switch into Bisharp or Weavile, and loses to pretty much every relevant fairy (Clef sets up on it unless trickscarf, Azu has water STAB, Diancie just Diamond Storms, MGarde Psyshocks, and though Rotom-H is being touted as a great Altaria counter it only really slows down offensive DD, and even if it switches in, wisps, and immediately Volt Switches out, you still have a burnt +3 Altaria to revenge kill or check so you can't really on Rotom-H as your only way of dealing with it.) Any set with Heal Bell or Sub laughs at it, even mixed sets win due to Rotom-H's lack of reliable recovery. Add in SR weakness and I don't see this as a C+ mon by any means, C seems okay I guess.

also move Klefki to A already lol

 

[Baharoth]

I am curious to know what people think about Mandibuzz rising a sub rank to B?

With Hoopa-U beeing released and popular Mandibuzz stands out as one of the best switch ins to it. Its immune to one stab and resists the other and I am pretty sure that Drain Punch/Focus Blast don't get the 2hko, the latter maybe after SR can't calc it right now. The increased popularity of Zard X and Mega Scizor and the fact that Garchomp, with one set or another, is probably the most common rock setter right now also play into Mandis hands because he can defog easily against the latter and beat the former two fairly reliably.

It has a bunch of really bad flaws that hold it back like the fact that most of the things its supposed to check/counter beat it with SR up and the fact that its basically an invitation for Keldeo, Azu and Diancie to come in and wreck havoc so its not easy to fit on a team sometimes but with proper support it walls a good amount of the physical meta and still has enough special bulk to take a hit on that side if needed. Also the Keldeo and Azu problems can be somewhat mitigated by using knock off as both of them are a lot easier to handle for the rest of the team if their Specs/Band is gone (this is especially true for Azu).

 

[DarkNostalgia]

I am curious to know what people think about Mandibuzz rising a sub rank to B?

With Hoopa-U beeing released and popular Mandibuzz stands out as one of the best switch ins to it. Its immune to one stab and resists the other and I am pretty sure that Drain Punch/Focus Blast don't get the 2hko, the latter maybe after SR can't calc it right now. The increased popularity of Zard X and Mega Scizor and the fact that Garchomp, with one set or another, is probably the most common rock setter right now also play into Mandis hands because he can defog easily against the latter and beat the former two fairly reliably.

It has a bunch of really bad flaws that hold it back like the fact that most of the things its supposed to check/counter beat it with SR up and the fact that its basically an invitation for Keldeo, Azu and Diancie to come in and wreck havoc so its not easy to fit on a team sometimes but with proper support it walls a good amount of the physical meta and still has enough special bulk to take a hit on that side if needed. Also the Keldeo and Azu problems can be somewhat mitigated by using knock off as both of them are a lot easier to handle for the rest of the team if their Specs/Band is gone (this is especially true for Azu).

168 SpA Life Orb Hoopa-Unbound Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 185-218 (43.7 - 51.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Yeah Mandibuzz isn't even that reliable of an answer when Focus Blast 2HKOes after Stealth Rock and the amount of pressure put onto Mandibuzz means it might not be at full health. I don't know how the increased popularity of Mega Charizard X and Mega Scizor benefits Mandibuzz when Mandibuzz can't even reliably counter them, nor Defog easily unless it wants to lose over half of its health. Jolly Mega Charizard X 2HKOes with Flare Blitz, OHKOing if at +1, and Mandibuzz can't really face off Mega Scizor that easily because of U-turn and +2 Bullet Punch doing quite a bit, though it does win 1v1. Not sure why Mandibuzz is the greatest counter to Garchomp either when Foul Play means Mandibuzz loses 30% of its health per hit due to Rocky Helmet + Rough Skin obviously, and the phazing from Dragon Tail will quickly rack up Stealth Rock and recoil. Toxic Garchomp beats Mandibuzz easily as well, as does Stone Edge variants. Offensive Garchomp obviously fares really well against Mandibuzz.

I mean, the flaws you mentioned are pretty gaping and do limit Mandibuzz's viability. Knock Off is a viable option, and yes I guess it does cripple Azumarill and Keldeo on the switch but that means you get countered by Mega Scizor, Mega Charizard X, Slowbro, and a whole host of other things - which basically exacerbates Mandibuzz's lack of viability. Mandibuzz is a kinda linear Pokemon and not very viable even at its only role when it literally loses head on to the three S-ranked Pokemon right now - Clefable, Mega Charizard X, and Mega Altaria. Also loses to a bunch of other metagame-defining Pokemon such as Keldeo, Azumarill, Bisharp, Latios, Thundurus, Tornadus-T, Gliscor, and Mega Diancie and faces stiff competition from a lot of other Pokemon so it should stay B- really.

 

[Cheryl.]

Nominating Scizor for B+
Oh, look it's Mega Scizor for S booooo. No, it's regular Scizor boys, and I'm nominating it for a rise to B+! Scizor is a cool wallbreaker or late game cleaner with Choice Band, and it can pick off weakened threats like Hoopa-U and Mega Aerodactyl with Bullet Punch. It has U-Turn to help gain momentum and is pretty strong with STAB. It also has coverage options like Superpower to hurt otherwise checks and counters, like Heatran. It can also Pursuit trap the Latis and other Psychic types, like Starmie or Hoopa-U. It also has pretty nice bulk invested, so it can take a hit or two. Choice Band isn't it's only set, either. It can run Life Orb for a bit less power, but the ability to change moves (It's still powerful tho), and I've heard of Choice Scarf Scizor, but I've never used it. It could also run a bulky Defog set, although it isn't the greatest set. One of the pros to using normal Scizor over Mega Scizor is not taking up a mega slot, making room for other megas like Mega Altaria or Mega Charizard X. Scizor has some cons, though. It's weakness to Fire can heavily cripple it, as it can't do much to stuff like bulky Charizard X or Charizard Y. It's also pretty slow without a Scarf, although Bullet Punch somewhat mitigates this. It's bulk is okay, but not the greatest either, as it sometimes fails to take some powerful hits. It also faces competition from it's Mega Evolution. But, overall, Scizor is a pretty good pokemon in the current meta and definetely doesn't deserve B, it should rise to B+!

Also nominating Latias and Mega Latias to drop.
Latias is still a good offensive or defensive Defogger, but really the only reason to use it over Latios is for Healing Wish and a bit of extra bulk which really doesn't matter in the long run. I would only use it if I needed Healing Wish on my team, otherwise I would just use Latios. So, imo, Latias is just a bit overshadowed by Latios as a offensive Defogger. For defensive, it has a lot of options, like TWave and Roar, and reliable recovery and a bit of an offensive presence and it can check a bunch of stuff, like Keldeo and Starmie, but it's weak to common things like TTar and Weavile, hurting the viablility of that set as well. So, with the combination of being overshadowed offensively by Latios except for Healing Wish, and the typing that makes it weak to common things, I think Latias is not exactly A material, I believe it's more A- material. Mega Latias should also drop to A- or B+, mostly because it was really only A because of Lando-I and the ability to check a bunch of shit or be a nice bulky sweeper with CM, and it isn't as weak to Knock Off, but still, Lando-I is gone, the weaknesses still hurt it, and it needs to have a bit of Calm Minds up to be able to realiably sweep, so I think it's more A- or B+ material.

 

[Dread Arceus]

Nominating Scizor for B+
Oh, look it's Mega Scizor for S booooo. No, it's regular Scizor boys, and I'm nominating it for a rise to B+! Scizor is a cool wallbreaker or late game cleaner with Choice Band, and it can pick off weakened threats like Hoopa-U and Mega Aerodactyl with Bullet Punch. It has U-Turn to help gain momentum and is pretty strong with STAB. It also has coverage options like Superpower to hurt otherwise checks and counters, like Heatran. It can also Pursuit trap the Latis and other Psychic types, like Starmie or Hoopa-U. It also has pretty nice bulk invested, so it can take a hit or two. Choice Band isn't it's only set, either. It can run Life Orb for a bit less power, but the ability to change moves (It's still powerful tho), and I've heard of Choice Scarf Scizor, but I've never used it. It could also run a bulky Defog set, although it isn't the greatest set. One of the pros to using normal Scizor over Mega Scizor is not taking up a mega slot, making room for other megas like Mega Altaria or Mega Charizard X. Scizor has some cons, though. It's weakness to Fire can heavily cripple it, as it can't do much to stuff like bulky Charizard X or Charizard Y. It's also pretty slow without a Scarf, although Bullet Punch somewhat mitigates this. It's bulk is okay, but not the greatest either, as it sometimes fails to take some powerful hits. It also faces competition from it's Mega Evolution. But, overall, Scizor is a pretty good pokemon in the current meta and definetely doesn't deserve B, it should rise to B+!

Also nominating Latias and Mega Latias to drop.
Latias is still a good offensive or defensive Defogger, but really the only reason to use it over Latios is for Healing Wish and a bit of extra bulk which really doesn't matter in the long run. I would only use it if I needed Healing Wish on my team, otherwise I would just use Latios. So, imo, Latias is just a bit overshadowed by Latios as a offensive Defogger. For defensive, it has a lot of options, like TWave and Roar, and reliable recovery and a bit of an offensive presence and it can check a bunch of stuff, like Keldeo and Starmie, but it's weak to common things like TTar and Weavile, hurting the viablility of that set as well. So, with the combination of being overshadowed offensively by Latios except for Healing Wish, and the typing that makes it weak to common things, I think Latias is not exactly A material, I believe it's more A- material. Mega Latias should also drop to A- or B+, mostly because it was really only A because of Lando-I and the ability to check a bunch of shit or be a nice bulky sweeper with CM, and it isn't as weak to Knock Off, but still, Lando-I is gone, the weaknesses still hurt it, and it needs to have a bit of Calm Minds up to be able to realiably sweep, so I think it's more A- or B+ material.

the hell are all those links lol
I do like the Scizor nom though, although I tend to only use it for Defog or Banded, it kinda sucks otherwise :x. Beating most Mega Altaria and checking Clefable is always nice though.

 

[MattyBrollic]

I wholeheartedly believe that Hippowdown should move up from A->A+ and that Feraligatr should move from B->B+ or even A-.

Hippowdown has plenty of utility in its move pool with options like whirlwind, toxic, stone edge, ice fang and crunch. It's neutral ground typing allows it to check plenty of physical attackers as well as powerful special attackers such as Mega Diancie and LO Gengar if it runs enough sp. Def. The main reason it should move up, though, is because of its ability to fit onto many different play styles such as bulky offense, balance, semi-stall, and even stall, and always perform consistently.

As for Gatr, it is a powerful sweeper that not many teams are well prepared for. It has solid defenses, especially on the physical side, that allow it to act as a reliable win condition against plenty of different teams. Its standard water/dark/ice coverage is basically perfect, making it fairly easy to slap onto teams. It also has the option to run moves like super power, or even aqua jet to reliably beat Talonflame at +1. Overall, it is a very threatening Pokemon that possesses a nice combination of bulk and power that allows it to be useful in many battles.

 

[thesecondbest]

landot to A - I mean this thing is getting ignored in favor of chomp but cmon. The scarf set I never really liked, but setup sets are hype. No drop.
hippowdon to a+ - IDK man, I think it's too weak to status to go that high. I think it's on par with ferrothorn. Reliable recovery vs better typing and ability seems like a decent tradeoff. Plus ferro is stronger, has leech seed and spikes.
volcarona b+ - nah man, this thing 6-0s some teams. Rather see it rise than drop. If you want to destroy stall and not use manaphy and you already have hazard removal, try this instead.
mew to a - hell yes. So versatile. WOW and knock off are legitimate advantages over jirachi, and that is getting nominated to A as well.
medicham to a-/a - Only in A-, it's a slightly worse gardevoir imo. But yeah pretty solid mon, priority is nice. The balance destroyer while Lop beats offense.
tangrowth to b - Not sold yet, I've been using amoonguss a bit and that mon is cash. Spore is great. Otherwise Tang has higher sptk. Knock off is about as good as foul play. Keep them in the same rank imo.
tentacruel to b- - I'd honestly drop it lower lol. It seems so great with scald burns and acid spray, but no. It's bad in practice.
cresselia to low c/c- - Already happened.
rotom-h to c/c+ - No clue, never used this mon in my life.
Manaphy A+ -> S - I'm not too sure at the moment... I'd rather use hoopa atm, but they are even in viability. Keep them both in A+.
Mega Latias A -> B+ - Not that low, A- only. But yeah, It can sweep unsuspecting teams but weakness to weavile makes it not too relevant.
Mega Slowbro A- -> A - Yeah this thing is hype. Ban Bro is no longer legit, it isn't that good, but it's as good as the non mega form.
Scolipede B+ -> B - No. The lead set with endeavor is pretty nice, and it can clean up in the late game.
Mega Gallade B+ -> B - Used this mon once, the skill swap set, and it was ass. No need for it to be this high.
Feraligatr B -> B+ - Yes this thing is so strong.
Gastrodon B- -> B - Never used this mon in this tier in my life.
Infernape B- -> C+ - No. With everyone and their mom using scizor and weavile this thing is very useful. Plus nobody expects you to pull out the scarf set.
Heracross C+ - C - Never used this mon in this tier in my life.
Kyurem C -> C+ - No clue, kyub is broken though. Pressure is OK I guess.
Regular Metagross -> C - Yes, it beats the latis and can run put in some amount of work.

 

[Albacore]

Mega Gallade B+ -> B - Used this mon once, the skill swap set, and it was ass. No need for it to be this high.

to be fair, skill swap gallade is about as legit as recover medicham

i mean it doesnt even beat sableye lol, or at least not as reliably as sub SD stone edge

 

[SketchUp]

Mega Gallade B+ -> B - Used this mon once, the skill swap set, and it was ass. No need for it to be this high.

If you want to drop this based of a suboptimal set you have only used once I am not surprised you want to drop this. You should maybe try out the SD set and actually play with it before you nominate this to drop.

Agreeing with Volcarona drop to B+. It needs a lot of support and even then it is stopped by some common pokemon like Mega Altaria, Heatran [if no hp ground] Talonflame, Chansey and Latias. It has a decent matchup against almost any playstyle, but an excellent matchup against none.

 

[Baharoth]

168 SpA Life Orb Hoopa-Unbound Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 185-218 (43.7 - 51.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Yeah Mandibuzz isn't even that reliable of an answer when Focus Blast 2HKOes after Stealth Rock and the amount of pressure put onto Mandibuzz means it might not be at full health. I don't know how the increased popularity of Mega Charizard X and Mega Scizor benefits Mandibuzz when Mandibuzz can't even reliably counter them, nor Defog easily unless it wants to lose over half of its health. Jolly Mega Charizard X 2HKOes with Flare Blitz, OHKOing if at +1, and Mandibuzz can't really face off Mega Scizor that easily because of U-turn and +2 Bullet Punch doing quite a bit, though it does win 1v1. Not sure why Mandibuzz is the greatest counter to Garchomp either when Foul Play means Mandibuzz loses 30% of its health per hit due to Rocky Helmet + Rough Skin obviously, and the phazing from Dragon Tail will quickly rack up Stealth Rock and recoil. Toxic Garchomp beats Mandibuzz easily as well, as does Stone Edge variants. Offensive Garchomp obviously fares really well against Mandibuzz.

I mean, the flaws you mentioned are pretty gaping and do limit Mandibuzz's viability. Knock Off is a viable option, and yes I guess it does cripple Azumarill and Keldeo on the switch but that means you get countered by Mega Scizor, Mega Charizard X, Slowbro, and a whole host of other things - which basically exacerbates Mandibuzz's lack of viability. Mandibuzz is a kinda linear Pokemon and not very viable even at its only role when it literally loses head on to the three S-ranked Pokemon right now - Clefable, Mega Charizard X, and Mega Altaria. Also loses to a bunch of other metagame-defining Pokemon such as Keldeo, Azumarill, Bisharp, Latios, Thundurus, Tornadus-T, Gliscor, and Mega Diancie and faces stiff competition from a lot of other Pokemon so it should stay B- really.

Just a few comments on this:

1. Hoopa-U has enough power to 2hko basicly everything with the right coverage move, Mandi is no exception here. However, i doubt that Focus miss will be a common choice on Hoopa (haven't seen one so far though that doesn't mean much) since the main targets for its fighting coverage are Ttar, Bisharp and Chansey which you hit better with Drain Punch, not to mention the better accuracy and the healing effect. Ferro is probably the only thing you might want focus blast for. But even if Focus Blast ends up beeing a common choice on it, Mandi can still switch into almost every other move Hoopa can muster, especially its stabs and thats the LO set we are talking about here, against scarf its alot easier. So even if you consider Focusblast, Mandi is still one of the best answers to it.

2. Regarding Tbolt, i honestly doubt it will see much usage because there are better options available. Aside from Mandi, Azu and Manaphy i can't think of anything significant that it hits and with stabs + fighting coverage beeing mandatory there is only one slot left which is imo much better used with sub, Gunk Shot or Nasty Plot. If i end up beeing wrong and Tbolt gets a common move on Hoopa we can forget about Mandi as an answer but right now he works really well.

3. You shouldn't use the spread from the calc, thats a relic from the Lando-I meta and outdated. Personally i use a fully physical defensive spread because Mandi needs the physical bulk a lot more and you can't avoid the 2hko against Focusblast after SR anyway. The best you could hope for is living 2 blasts without SR and thats not worth giving up all the physical bulk. Its also worth noting that even LO Hoopa will need significant SpA investment to "reliably" kill Mandi with Fblast without SR up. 168 SpA Life Orb Hoopa Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mandibuzz: 207-244 (48.9 - 57.6%) -- 55.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. And thats asuming both shots hit.

4. Considering a physical defensive spread Zard X doesnt 2hko with flare blitz (adamant has a slight chance) and Mandi is a pretty solid stop to it. Same with Scizor, sure +2 Bullet hurts, but +2 Foulplay hurts alot more and Mandi will come in on the SD anyway.

5. Mandi will switch into chomp as he sets the rocks so you wont get SR damage from it. Then you defog and if Chomp goes for dragon tail it does like 15%, thats mostly mitigated by Lefties. And depending on what comes in Chomp will be forced out. Unless it runs Toxic Chomp will have a hard time keeping rocks up against Mandi, even more so if Mandi runs Toxic itself (which it should unless your team is extremly weak to CB Azu and Specs Keldeo and you need the Knock off to handle them). Other Chomp variants without Dragon Tail have an even harder time getting rocks up because they cant phaze and have a hard time beating Mandi (+2 Stone Edge fails to ohko without LO while +2 Foulplay does in 43% of the cases)


Its impossible to tell right now how things will turn out with hoopa, what moves, spreads and sets will be used but right now i can say from experience that Mandi works well against it. Scarf variants cant do a thing and even LO variants are often countered or at least checked. Right now I think he is a bit better than he was a months ago and the rank should reflect that.

Again, because i am sure some one will pick on that, depending on what becomes standard on Hoopa Mandi might not be an answer at all, but from my experience right now it is, and I think chances are good it will stay this way.

 

[North Gate]

lol skill swap gallade is fucking ass do not think that's what's keeping it in b+

really though gallade is fine in b+ the speed tier and decent special bulk is honestly really nice, sub sets are gr8 and adamant shadow sneak sets are honestly not as bad as i once thought they were and tbh this thing isn't 'set in stone' like most people thotitwas in the beginning of oras because it has legit utility options, a decent movepool, and a way to actually break fat psychics like mew

i actually used random shit like wow sd 2 atks megallade to lure stuff like lando and chomp so srsly this thing is not that bad and idk why people think it loses to sableye-mega (which btw most mega sableye builds aren't as good anymore b/c of hoopa) that it should drop lmao so idk how it got worse in the meta

like actually use mega gallade and explore the options and it's a solid b+ pokemon

now in practice the 80 speed pre-mega isn't really an issue for me but i can see why it is an issue for some ppl and this thing is not without flaws b/c 165 atk w/o a boosting item is only decent or slightly good at best (although CCs good power mitigates this a little bit) but all of its other moves are kind of low BP (like why are all the physical psychic moves so bad) so i can see its power being a little under-par but with a swords dance up it really only needs to spam its stabs or click a coverage move (unless you're me and run 2 atks wow sd gallade) to be decent at its job like cmon

also ffs stop instantly comparing it to mmedi they have different perks going for each other

Edit removed by me.

 

[green gadgets]

Ok so here are my thoughts about the Noms.

LandoT to A: It stays in the Shadow of Tankchomp, which should really get to S. With the rise of Weavile, Hippo and Tankchomp it's not that great it was before. So yeah it should drop.
Hippo to A+: Definitly yes! This thing is awesome. It checks many Pokes, can whirlwind a good potion of the metagame out.
Volcarona b+: IDK I think against Stall Manaphy is just better, quadruple weakness against SR is a real throwback. but then it can 6-0.
Mew to A-: move up, maybe to A!
Manaphy to S: hell yeah! There is this mindgame when this thing is out. If your opp let you get a free tail glow - gg well played.
Gatr to B+: this thing is havoc! Whenever I read that it's good in OU I just stopped and read another post, then I tried it. Hell.. what kind of a pokemon. Move up!
Tankchomp: I think it should be S Rank. It's everywhere. It doesn't need any support, plays really well. Everyone is expecting tankchomp so you can surprise with Mega or Banded. I use the Tankchomp Set with Rest and nobody expect it, so there are many situations where it is at 2% of life and then goes to full health. WoW and Toxic is not the end of his career and with Rough Skin + Helmet it hurts more physical attackers.

 

[DaRkRaii]

It has been discussed previously, when the meta was a lot kinder to mLop. Now, despite what people are saying, a lot of ORAS OU is still fat balance and a bit of offense sprinkled around. mLop is known for absolutely obliterating Offense, that is nothing new, however with mZam on the rise that makes mLop's job ten times harder now than it was then. However, S is still over shooting it. I was once a very avid mLop user, and even then I was against a rise to S. It's unresisted STAB is nice, don't get me wrong, however, it's not as amazing as many made it out to be. It does abuse High Base power moves, which is nice, against offense as stated before, however, Balance can stomach most hits and recover it off with little to no problem and either force it out or outright take it out. Maybe, and I say this very lightly, if the meta does become an offense ridden meta again like people are claiming it already is, then I can see a rise to S. It's just not in a super advantageous spot right now. A+ is more than fitting for the moment.

EDIT: I want the fact that I absolutely hate mLop now to be put on record.

That's pretty much my point of view as well. I've been out of the game for a bit (after Mega Luke got banned I stopped playing for IRL reasons) and I've been looking at this thread and playing PS a bit. I tried out Mega Lopunny and it seemed nearly Auto Win against certain teams but different teams were able to combat it. I'm not advocating it to go to S, but it's extremely threatening IMO. On the same tier as Mega Zard X, just Zard's chances to set up due to Bulk and recovery are a little more enticing.

 

[NinetyNineNo]

General question -- what changed in the meta for such a drastic shift in Gallade and Medicham's comparable viability? I know some people say "they fulfil different roles so they shouldn't be compared", but at the end of the day they're both physical Mega Fighting/Psychic wallbreakers, and that's what people will consider when using. Gallade used to be some five subranks above Medicham (A versus C+ IIRC), now Medicham keeps rising while Gallade keeps dropping. And yet all I hear is that the meta keeps getting more offensive, so shouldn't this benefit the faster of the two more strongly? Or is Gallade's necessity of a turn to SD to really break through walls enough of a deterrent? I get the feeling the pushback against Gallade and for Medicham owes more to hype backlash (considering people once thought Gallade would be S and that it completely outclassed Medicham) than to any tangible meta trends.

tl;dr -- what changed to make Medicham's higher immediate power and double (unSTABed) priority so much better than Gallade's 100 speed tier, access to Knock Off, SD and miscellaneous support options?

 

[Scotti]

Taylor Swift is a great artist.

scizor for B+
Scizor is extremely easy to fit on to offensive teams. Checks ton of important stuff like mega alt, clefable, mega garde, togekiss, alakazam, mega zam, mega drill, mega diancie, , kyu-b, lati twins, mega meta, reun, scept, , sylveon, and weavile. Then you got irrelevant mons like dragonite, breloom, hydreigon, scoli, and terrakion in B+. There is no reason why this shouldn't raise. Of course it has counters and shit, but its typing alone is extremely helpful to offensive team, and help check important threats that every team needs to prepare for.

C+
Extremely good mon rn with its av set allowing for HO and Bulky Offense to check a lot of threats. It pretty much does the same exact thing has reg scizor but lacks u-turn, however it does has a niche of not being 4x to hp fire, making lati twins and clefable a lot easier to deal with.

The best thing about both of these is that they dont take up a mega spot and are extremely easy to fit onto offensive teams.

 

[i ran out of names]

Taylor Swift is a great artist.

scizor for B+
Scizor is extremely easy to fit on to offensive teams. Checks ton of important stuff like mega alt, clefable, mega garde, togekiss, alakazam, mega zam, mega drill, mega diancie, , kyu-b, lati twins, mega meta, reun, scept, , sylveon, and weavile. Then you got irrelevant mons like dragonite, breloom, hydreigon, scoli, and terrakion in B+. There is no reason why this shouldn't raise. Of course it has counters and shit, but its typing alone is extremely helpful to offensive team, and help check important threats that every team needs to prepare for.

C+
Extremely good mon rn with its av set allowing for HO and Bulky Offense to check a lot of threats. It pretty much does the same exact thing has reg scizor but lacks u-turn, however it does has a niche of not being 4x to hp fire, making lati twins and clefable a lot easier to deal with.

The best thing about both of these is that they dont take up a mega spot and are extremely easy to fit onto offensive teams.

Agreed 100% on scizor which may be outclassed by it's mega but if you already have a mega and you need hard hitting steel type it's the only way to go, the thing is a monster and can run all of the sets it's mega can.

Metagross i'm on the fence about but i don't think it deserves a raise from D to C+

 

[Gilbertosaurus]

Manaphy can go to S when Ferrothorn is banned.

-Hydreigon is very good imo but it requires a lot of support and gets worn down easily and for the most part is outclassed by many things like hoopa-u nowadays. I guess it should move down:[
-Mega Medicham should definitely move up. It's is a great wallbreaker that doesn't have shit speed and has no real safe switch-ins. Heck even Latios can be 1hkoed by HJK after rocks. A-is ok but i feel A is really pushing it because it is completely walled by Mega Sableye which isn't uncommon on stall where Medicham shines the most and doesn't allow you to safely spam HJK.
-Gastrodon probably shouldnt be the same rank as quagsire which can wall physical set-up sweepers and i don't think the extra Special bulk is worth it when Physical pokemon are the most prominent threats in the meta at the moment but i don't use either mons too much I mostly just despise them:/
- Landorus-T probably should drop right now with the popularity of BulkyChomp it cant u-turn out for momentum vs a lot of teams without recoil which is one of its best qualities.
-Infernape is a great mon for luring in and weakening walls and such with it's good coverage opening up holes for other threats to come in and sweep. For example it can really surprise hippo and slowbro with a LO Grass and clefable with gunk shot. All in all its a very versatile breaker that can adapt to any specific teams needs and its rank is ok as it is.
-Cresselia sweeps with CM+Lunar Dance pls go to A+

 

[Harsha]

I propose Garchomp moves up to S-tier.

Garchomp is an amazing catch-all Pokemon that can sweep, provide utility, provide a defensive presence, or provide raw wallbreaking power. I wouldn't call it unpredictable by any means, given that the best and most common sets are the ones that put up Stealth Rock and then use Earthquake / Dragon Claw / Fire Blast while the opponent switches out, but it provides a whole lot for any team archetype.

For one, Garchomp provides an adequate check for Bisharp and Scizor for offensive teams – both of which can be rather problematic given one turn of setup otherwise. Rocky Helmet sets are particularly good against U-turn. Garchomp is bulky enough to take a hit from just about anything and still set Stealth Rock up reliably. More offensive Stealth Rock sets with Swords Dance do incredibly well against more defensive teams, and Garchomp's good base bulk means that this set isn't a sitting duck against more offensive teams.

SubSalac Garchomp is fairly good and can sweep late-game without facing many bad matchups. All it really needs is one free turn and it can win a game on its own (I believe there was a recent example of this during WCoP, though I may be thinking of a BW game). Choice Scarf isn't that great, but if you're running a Scarf, you're wasting Garchomp's potential honestly.

While I only listed positives for the most part, I would like to argue that the biggest thing Garchomp brings is CONSISTENCY. Never have I once questioned having a Garchomp on my team, as it almost always manages to do its job. These reasons are practically the same for which Garchomp was voted S in BW, and while that ranking is irrelevant, I believe that Garchomp should be given the same treatment for its versatility, reliability, and utility (woo ilities).

 

[Flamer]

How the fuck did this place turn into a shitstorm where people are arguing which wallbreaker is more broken? The past 2-3 pages are truly painful to read, with every second post either insulting someone or saying some other really dumb shit like using Crunch on Hoopa-U. I think this thread needs to be a bit more structured in the discussion points, at the very least restricting discussion to a sub rank or preventing open discussion about which mons are broken. If Hoopa-Us placement is really so controversial, let the council decide on its placement instead of arguing for pages about which mons wall it and how manaphy gets Uturn. When the metagame gets to this kind of stable state its only natural that people will argue over menial things but please for the love of god try to make logical posts that dont have me tearing my hair out every few minutes. At this point I wouldnt even be adverse to restricting this thread to badged users for a short period of time to let people see what they should be aiming for.

Looking back, the style of nominations from a few months ago were so much better, where people actually used grammar and set out their arguments in a way where I could see exactly the points they were making. Im not sure if its just a different crowd posting nowadays but some of you seriously need to go back and look at these past posts to get a better grip on how to make a good argument or at least practise your persuasive writing skills.

 

[AM]

How the fuck did this place turn into a shitstorm where people are arguing which wallbreaker is more broken? The past 2-3 pages are truly painful to read, with every second post either insulting someone or saying some other really dumb shit like using Crunch on Hoopa-U. I think this thread needs to be a bit more structured in the discussion points, at the very least restricting discussion to a sub rank or preventing open discussion about which mons are broken. If Hoopa-Us placement is really so controversial, let the council decide on its placement instead of arguing for pages about which mons wall it and how manaphy gets Uturn. When the metagame gets to this kind of stable state its only natural that people will argue over menial things but please for the love of god try to make logical posts that dont have me tearing my hair out every few minutes. At this point I wouldnt even be adverse to restricting this thread to badged users for a short period of time to let people see what they should be aiming for.

Looking back, the style of nominations from a few months ago were so much better, where people actually used grammar and set out their arguments in a way where I could see exactly the points they were making. Im not sure if its just a different crowd posting nowadays but some of you seriously need to go back and look at these past posts to get a better grip on how to make a good argument or at least practise your persuasive writing skills.

Damn woke up to so much lol.

I'm going to go ahead and just put an enormous restriction on what's being discussed right now, and possibly in the future to about 3 Pokemon. It's kind of obvious most people here can't discuss higher ranks or have an open rank discussion without insults, hair tearing logic, disregard for basic grammar, or cries for helps such as this one.

Metagross (regular) to around C / C+ whichever higher rank reflects it, Hydreigon down to B, and Feraligatr up to B+ are the discussion points, as in the only ones allowed on this thread at this point in time. Any other discussion points will be deleted. I'll be letting ranking team decide everything else they've considered or have been brought up here. If a mod sees this and feels like deleting unrelated posts feel free to use this comment as the reason.

Hopefully this filters a lot of the nonsense in the past 24 hours I've just seen and gives this thread sort of a relief it kind of needs at the moment. Probably going to delete a bunch of comments to.

Edit: Deleted a bunch of Hoopa-U discussion.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Dammit AM, you dropped my like count. I had 1110. . . I was one away from my goal. . .

Anyways, I can honestly agree with the Hydreigon drop. It pains me to say this, but it's just not all that great anymore. There are just some Pokemon that shall not be mentioned that give it a real run for its money. It's scarf set is just. . . Not good, leaving really only its wallbreaker set to be the real reason to use it. However, with the inclusion of the aforementioned mon, it's REALLY hard to justify using Hydreigon over it, in really any situation. It's mixed stats were what made it stand out, and its speed and typing over KyuB also made it only slightly justifiable when team building. Hydreigon is easily one of my favorite Pokemon, and it hurts me to say it, but, it's just not cut out for what it wants to do. Not anymore at least. Drop it to B.

 

[Expert_Occultist]

Dammit AM, you dropped my like count. I had 1110. . . I was one away from my goal. . .

Anyways, I can honestly agree with the Hydreigon drop. It pains me to say this, but it's just not all that great anymore. There are just some Pokemon that shall not be mentioned that give it a real run for its money. It's scarf set is just. . . Not good, leaving really only its wallbreaker set to be the real reason to use it. However, with the inclusion of the aforementioned mon, it's REALLY hard to justify using Hydreigon over it, in really any situation. It's mixed stats were what made it stand out, and its speed and typing over KyuB also made it only slightly justifiable when team building. Hydreigon is easily one of my favorite Pokemon, and it hurts me to say it, but, it's just not cut out for what it wants to do. Not anymore at least. Drop it to B.

I've said this before but He Who Shall Not Be Named (we'll call it Voldemort for now) is not an easy pokemon to use. I find it's complete lack of resistances very off-putting and its speed tier very wanting.
Hydreigon not only provides some very cool resistances (meaning it can actually switch in repeatedly) it has the speed to take on things like Kyurem or Bisharp without taking a hit (or in this case taking very little from Sucker Punch). The ability to take hits also let it function as a pivot which Voldemort cannot do as the combination of LO recoil and taking full damage from all attacks wears it down quickly. Then we have Voldemort's speed which leaves it out sped by any offensive mon worth its salt. Both mons require support (Hydra in anti fairy stuff, Voldemort in volt/turn).
Hydreigon's scarf set was always awful (IMO) and it was raised to B+ rank on its wallbreaking. The 4 attacks U-turn set is as good as ever at breaking things or pivoting to a fairy killer like Metagross while providing significant typing advantages over Hoop-errrVoldemort. In this light I say keep Hydreigon B+.