Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

[bludz]

I think Hoopa-Unbound moving to S rank is controversial in some ways (some people think it's overrated and it undeniably isn't super splashable like Clefable is, a fellow S rank) but makes sense in others. Even if it isn't the most popular mon, it's impossible to deny that it has greatly increased the viability of offense (which checks it well) and decreased the viability of slower, fatter builds which have serious problems with it.

I agree with all of the other moves but I do feel that Manaphy moving up to S rank bothers me a little. Not that I don't think it's worthy but I think Azumarill is a better candidate personally. Manaphy breaks a lot more fat cores but if we're admitting that Hoopa hurts the viability of fatness to begin with then how influential is this? Azu actually checks things like Weavile, Zard X, Mega Gyara and some other annoying shit like Excadrill and Keldeo somewhat. Manaphy isn't really a switch-in to anything. It's pretty nice for breaking fat cores (an undeniably amazing trait because breaking fat mons is meh unless you can break the cores they reside in), but I think Azumarill provides overall more team support in terms of checking things and still has solid wallbreaking ability.

 

[AM]

Any word on Klefki? I made a post sparking discussion back here http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...actually-read-it.3536420/page-86#post-6339367.

Also, what are the new discussion points? Cause on the OP under where it says what mons to discuss, it's blank. Metagross and Feraligatr both moved so are they still discussion points?

Klefki to A, Azu to S, Garchomp to S and Reuniclus to B are discussion points as well as anything else a ranking team member decides.

 

[CloudyNeonz]

Klefki to a, i agree,in a meta full of dangerous set up sweepers such as manaphy, alt, zard x, the ability to cripple something even though its faster is crucial. stopping potential sweeps, and not only that, thunder wave spam wrecks ho, and prankster spikes is a great bonus. to top it all off, klefki has a great defensive typing. allowing to stop powerful mons like lati@s. so yeah klefki to a

 

[JBC]

I agree with the first t

I think Hoopa-Unbound moving to S rank is controversial in some ways (some people think it's overrated and it undeniably isn't super splashable like Clefable, a fellow S rank) but makes sense in others. Even if it isn't the most popular mon, it's impossible to deny that it has greatly increased the viability of offense (which checks it well) and decreased the viability of slower, fatter builds which have serious problems with it.

I agree with all of the other moves but I do feel that Manaphy moving up to S rank bothers me a little. Not that I don't think it's worthy but I think Azumarill is a better candidate personally. Manaphy breaks a lot more fat cores but if we're admitting that Hoopa hurts the viability of fatness to begin with then how influential is this? Azu actually checks things like Weavile, Zard X, Mega Gyara and some other annoying shit like Excadrill and Keldeo somewhat. Manaphy isn't really a switch-in to anything. It's pretty nice for breaking fat cores (an undeniably amazing trait because breaking fat mons is meh unless you can break the cores they reside in), but I think Azumarill provides overall more team support in terms of checking things and still has solid wallbreaking ability.

I entirely agree with you. Clefable isn't splashable, and Hoopa to me is just...bleh. It's by no means bad, I just think it's more on par with A+ - semi-splashable and very effective but have some minor flaws. Hoopa just isn't perfect to me.

 

[Dread Arceus]

Klefki to A ---> Yes, if only for the fact that it's currently ranked lower in OU than Ubers (I know that's not a point but it still looks odd lol). Seriously though, Spikes, priority TWave, and an excellent typing make Klefki one of the cooler mons in the meta.

Azu to S ---> No, its two main sets require a lot of careful play and solid predictions to be useful. The meta's also full of strong Fairy-types now that give Azu a competition for a teamslot.

Garchomp to S ---> Yes, it's the most versatile, splashable Pokemon in the meta, even more so than Clefable. If any mon deserves S rank for that reason, it's Chomp.

Reuniclus to B ---> Yes, it's more prepared for now since there's other CM mons in the meta than before (MLati, MBro, Manaphy resurgence). Its typing also makes it hard to fit on a team, given that it's a fat Psychic-type that can't beat MLop.

 

[Firebird101]

This thread has had enough MScizor discussion for awhile, if the council wants to put MScizor to S then so be it. Everyone here knows it's pros and cons so I'd prefer we'd keep the thread more focused on mons more worthy of discussion.

I don't have a strong opinion on Reuniclus but I guess slow psychics all suffered from Hoopa's arrival so I guess it makes sense to drop it but I'd love to hear more input from more experienced players.

Klefki to A also makes sense as the meta isn't kind to the slow atm (unless you're really fat) and Klefki is a great emergency button for offensive teams against other offensive teams and a lot of wincons need Klefki out of the way if they want to start sweeping.

Garchomp prolly deserves S. It is in it's prime with all of it's sets being perfectly viable and just great in general. People often say Clef is splashable but I think Chomp is even more so. It is currently the best ground considering it's bulk, power and speed to do whatever you desire it to do.

Azu to S I'm not as sure but it I think the meta isn't as well prepared for it as it should be and it really takes advantage of some of the metagame trends so I'm open for it.

Sorry for the shitty mobile post but I was in the mood for some little rambling ^^

 

[AM]

Im deleting mega scizor to S rank discussion as well so the thread doesnt, for what I assume is about the 10th or so time now, become perpetually nausiating to read. Ranking team can decide if and when that warrants serious discussion. Thanks.

 

[Aurious]

Just some of my thoughts without long justifications:

AM edit: removed mscizor mention.

Gengar A+ -> A / A-: Can't break anything rn since most more defensive teams have Tyranitar to Pursuit-trap and more balanced teams have Tornadus-T, SDef Scizor (Mega) or Scarf Ttar too. Offensive teams are usually just way to fast, have priority and don't give it any free switchins so its usually just does nothing against them. Stuff like Hoopa-U or Manaphy is far better to use as Stallbreaker or Balance breaker. I also don't see the point why it's ranked over normal Alakazam.

Starmie A -> A+: Best spinner in the metagame which can't get Pursuit trapped as easy as Lati@s can since it has access to Reflect type and can also Scald-burn. The defensive variant can also cripple a lot of stuff with the underrated Thunder Wave and checks a lot of common 'mons such as Hippo, Tran, Keldeo etc. The offensive variant hasn't many switchins and gives a reliable spinner for offensive teams.

 

[bludz]

I agree with the first t

I entirely agree with you. Clefable isn't splashable, and Hoopa to me is just...bleh. It's by no means bad, I just think it's more on par with A+ - semi-splashable and very effective but have some minor flaws. Hoopa just isn't perfect to me.

Maybe I worded my post badly but this is not what I meant. Clefable is plenty splashable and that's the comparison I was making. Hoopa isn't really.

Regarding Klefki I've made a few posts on the matter and I think it should move up. Hazard setting offense is great and it's one of the most reliable checks to several things on offense.

Dread Arceus since when does Reuniclus not beat Mega Lopunny? o.o It's a hard check that only loses to things like PuP or Encore upon switchins (free switch it wins).

252 Atk Mega Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Reuniclus: 157-186 (37 - 43.8%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Besides that weird claim I'll agree on it dropping. Weavile's popularity + Hoopa make it far less effective as a bulky CMer in this metagame IMO.

 

[Dread Arceus]

Maybe I worded my post badly but this is not what I meant. Clefable is plenty splashable and that's the comparison I was making. Hoopa isn't really.

Regarding Klefki I've made a few posts on the matter and I think it should move up. Hazard setting offense is great and it's one of the most reliable checks to several things on offense.

Dread Arceus since when does Reuniclus not beat Mega Lopunny? o.o It's a hard check that only loses to things like PuP or Encore upon switchins (free switch it wins).

252 Atk Mega Lopunny Return vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Reuniclus: 157-186 (37 - 43.8%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Besides that weird claim I'll agree on it dropping. Weavile's popularity + Hoopa make it far less effective as a bulky CMer in this metagame IMO.

Woops, had to use a super bootleg calc cuz of phone lol, still, meta just is much better equipped for it now

 

[Shruggy]

Agree with klefki rise. Spikes/twave priority and decent alternative moveset options alongside great typing means it always puts in work vs any team.

Also agree with azumarill rise. Hard hitting, another mon with great typing (fairy too op). And again another mon that everyone has to prepare for or be ready to be swept repeatedly as every other HO team seems use azu.

Don't agree with chomp rise. Think a month or two ago I would have supported it more but its getting a bit old hat and prepared for. Yes it is a very very good tanky Sr setter but it doesn't define the meta currently in the way some other mons do

 

[thesecondbest]

Klefki to A - Everyone else agrees on this, I have no opinion. I don't use it that much.
Azu to S - Nah. AV is too weak, belly drum is too predictable nowadays imo, and CB is nice, but not S worthy. Sure it's strong but nah. If it had 70 base speed I would say yes but even if you 2HKO something after hazards, they probably recover before you hit it.
Garchomp to S - Yeah I rehashed this nom a week back or so. It's at least as good as Clef. Pls rise.
Reuniclus to B - Why the hate? Reuniclus is a great mon. Sure it's weak to knock off but you can even run iron defense (or acid armor, I forget which one it gets) and set up. I think two subranks below slowbro is low enough. Not having scald doesn't make it a whole subrank lower.

 

[Mikael]

also,i don't think this is the place to nominate retests...

i disagree with azu going to S. Sure,it hits hard,but it's so easy to predict. Most of people known how to deal with it.
i also agree with a garchomp rise. even with the increase usage of weavile,chomp is such a glue mon that he can fit in almost any team. It also bring a variety of effective sets,like tank chomp,sash lead chomp,sub+sd chomp. Supporting it.

Edit:Here's a question: what makes m-aero worth of a-?

 

[MikeDawg]

If we are going to look at reuniclus, I think that the trick room set may be better to focus on. This metagame (offense galore) is pretty kind to it. Not being stopped by a twave from klefki or thundy is a good bonus. Even mid-game, frail teams are liable to be clean-swept.

It's probably best to run Signal Beam so as to deal with hoopa (making it a nice life as well). It also lets it beat celebi, for what it's worth, while not losing shadow-ball coverage on psychics not named Gardevoir. Max HP gives it a surprising amount of bulk to set up, and modest life orb gives it a surprising amount of power and survivability (since magic guard).

I'm indifferent on its place in the viability rankings, but I think that the calm mind set is not the one we should be focusing on.

 

[blank]

I definitely agree with Klefki to A. It's an excellent Spikes stacker, it can spread Para, and it helps with lots of common threats to offensive builds. Considering the more offensive nature of the meta atm, Klefki's ability to spread para with Prankster Thunder Wave + its excellent typing + other support moves makes it an excellent Pokemon for offensive builds. It has the ability to check Weavile which is quite a pain for lots of offense builds, and it can gimp annoying speedy Pokemon & set up sweepers like Zard-X, Mega Altaria, Mega Lopunny (general speed + bitch for offense to deal with), etc.. While it obviously isn't a check to these Pokemon, it's ability to hit them with a Thunder Wave makes them a lot easier for your team to deal with. One thing that tends to be overlooked with Klefki is how good of a Screens setter it is. On top of its Screens being priority, it also has all those nice utility options I talked about above. Klefki is just a really nice utility Pokemon that doesn't kill momentum for offensive builds, and considering the fairly offensive meta we currently have (& Weavile recently becoming a bigger deal), Klefki is pretty easy to slap onto these offensive teams.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Alright, so I'm going to write this quick and expand on it later. I was probably the first one to bring up ORAS Garchomp to move to S, which was roughly 60-70 pages ago. I brought it up twice around the Landorus-I suspect test and was shut down by AM, among others, but the ranking philosophy has changed and now he agrees with me, seemingly.

The one above all thing that we should judge an S rank on is how they effect the metagame, an Garchomps tank set has formed the metagame drastically, it's presence has made Ice punch on Weavile less favourable, physical users are severely hampered by Garchomps rise in viability if they lack an non-contact move and special attackers have rose in viability. What makes Garchomp so favourable is it's ability to do two things on offence. First of all, it's the tiers premiere Stealth zrocker. It can set up on a large portion of the metagame, with little fear of your poonent setting up as a nice Dragon tail awaits yhem , it's also a hard check to Mega Lopunny on offence which is huge, very little gives so little fuck about the bunny. And Garchomp doesn't even have to attack it, it can simply set up stealth rocks on any non-ice punch mega Lopunny.
It's also an excellent fall-back on offence, even if your opponents Charizard-x manages to set up you can force him to take 28% damage and put him into Brave bird range, that might seem pretty bad as you sacked Garchomp, but no, you traded Garchomp for your opponents Win-condition. The most threatening pokemon in the current metagame was forced into Brave bird range, and you didn't have to do nothing. But it's not just Charizard-x tankchomp can check. Altaria, Landorus, Talonflame, Excadrill, Bisharp, Breloom, Azumarill and Mega Lopunny are just some more obvious ones, the list goes on.

 

[AM]

Fyi S ranking criteria I dont believe has changed I just suggested to have a bit more leniancy than having two stupidly tough megas and the most annoying pink blob as the only things signifying a defining force in the meta. That is all and its still at discretion of ranking team.

 

[Blumenwitz]

But it's not just Charizard-x tankchomp can check. Altaria

Hold up. Tankchomp checks Mega Altaria? Since when?

Pixilate Return is a guaranteed 2HKO even if it's max physically defensive, and there's not a whole lot that it can do back. Tankchomp's Earthquake has a tiny sliver of a chance to 2HKO Mega Alt it even if it has no defensive investment whatsoever, and Mega Alt can just Roost off the damage it takes from Rough Skin/ Rocky Helmet.

 

[serperioriscool]

also,i don't think this is the place to nominate retests...

i disagree with azu going to S. Sure,it hits hard,but it's so easy to predict. Most of people known how to deal with it.
i also agree with a garchomp rise. even with the increase usage of weavile,chomp is such a glue mon that he can fit in almost any team. It also bring a variety of effective sets,like tank chomp,sash lead chomp,sub+sd chomp. Supporting it.

Edit:Here's a question: what makes m-aero worth of a-?

It's decent coverage, attack, extremely high speed to destroy offense and Decent bulk
The rise of offensive only helps it as it demolishes faster teams

 

[s_aman]

Klefki to A : I agree. It is a nice emergrncy button in "öh fuck'' situations. Checks most special fairies lacking fire move if running magnet rise and Lati@s and weavile and the new S-rank god Hoopa-U (Wait until it starts running Fire Punch). Spikes is very good in the metagame at the moment and Klefki is one of the two best users of it and it can also beat two best defoggers. Also, while skarmory can only fit on more defensevily oriented teams or as a custap lead on HO (which is not very good imo), Klefki can fit on most playstyles. It along with Tank chomp can provide a good backbone to offensive teams and gives them an insurance against the ever problematic DDers. It fits very well on balance too checking the aforementioned threats which are threatening to any balance team.

Azumarill to S : Agree. Has 0 switchins on offense. Checks the big dogs like Zard-X and Keldeo. Very good Excadrill check for offense. BD is underused at the moment, but is very effective as a win condition. Great mon and can fit on almost everyting except stall (sap sipper anyone).

 

[lonlyboysh]

Why is there a Weedle named bludz at A-? Lol

Anyways:
Reuniclus B+ -> B: Agree. Yes, the cell undergoing mitosis (?), has regenerator, but it's weak to Knock off. Can't really all anything with its weak typing.

Klefki A- -> A: Agree. Prankster T-wave then Magnet Rise, it's surely one of the best support mons out there.

 

[CloudyNeonz]

I have a question, why did mega Latias drop down to b+? Sure hoopas come and ruined it's life but it's certainly a - worthy

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Hold up. Tankchomp checks Mega Altaria? Since when?

Pixilate Return is a guaranteed 2HKO even if it's max physically defensive, and there's not a whole lot that it can do back. Tankchomp's Earthquake has a tiny sliver of a chance to 2HKO Mega Alt it even if it has no defensive investment whatsoever, and Mega Alt can just Roost off the damage it takes from Rough Skin/ Rocky Helmet.

Not a lot on offence checks Mega Altaria/Mega Charizard-X. Having Garchomp in the back, coupled with priority can mean that your opponent cannot sweep, because if he does he'll be forced to lose 28% which will put him in range of certain priority attacks, notably...

Weavile does 50% with Ice Shard to Mega Altaria. A common pokemon for Altaria to set up on is Keldeo, and after Secret sword/Scald from Specs Keldeo coupled with those crucial 28% Ice Shard kills, same applies to BP and BB.

This probably isn't Garchomps best usage, but it is still an effective way to weaken your opponent and should be noted.

EDIT because I didn't want to clog the chat, PoMMan Altaria comes in on Keldeo, Keldeo Scalds as Altaria Dragon dances, Altaria kills Keldeo, I bring out Garchomp, Garchomp earthquakes but is either outspeed and killed, bringing Altaria into Weavile range or Altaria Roosts on the earthquake and is still in Ice shard range after the Earthquake plus 28%

 

[Aberforth]

You realise all altaria run roost, right? It can recover off the damage very easily, and while it is useful to have a sack that discourages your opponent from using their stab attack, going so far as to say that altaria is checked by garchomp is being somewhat exaggeratory.

My main argument against chomp moving up for its tank set is how relatively easy it is to overwhelm. Ice punch lopunny being a good example, but using it as a blanket check as it is with no recovery whatsoever can lead to it being overwhelmed.

Still probably is S worthy for the combination of sets it can run, especially considering how hard offense is bodied by stuff like lopunny without it (that overwhelming thing is talking more about balanced/bulkier offensive teams BTW).

 

[Scaler]

252 Atk Mega Lopunny Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garchomp: 252-300 (60 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Lopunny: 142-168 (52.3 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

As long as you don't switch into an ice punch tankchomp will always beat Lopunny straightout. it needs minimum of 2 hits to kill chomp (3 if Lop uses fake out) dealing 60% residual damage from rough skin+ rocky helmet which along with an Earthquake is a KO.