np: Doubles OU Stage 3 - Hate to Love You - SKYMIN HAS BEEN BANNED

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Starting off I was slightly against ban but wanted to ladder before making up my mind and now will be voting against the ban for these reasons.
1. The frailty hinders it significantly, while I understand it is not meant to take hits and carries sash so basically gets off two hits it limits it especially with priority such as kangas sucker and others. brave bird from talonflame destroys it and the argument about keldeo + quickguard doesnt help you if it isnt currently on the field or has fainted. This also means it has great problems against speed control, twave and tailwind really screw with skymin
2. It flinches and haxes a lot, but not to the extent that it cannot be played around, this is coupled with the chance to miss with both of its main stabs again limits shaymin.
This is brief as i'm busy at the moment, but i will be voting *no ban*
 

Haruno

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Gotta love how there are subjective reqs to vote, while TC was changed specifically to remove them. Kinda defeats the point of changing tc policy to not need posting reqs when you need to meet them to vote in the first place. McMeghan thoughts?

anyhow, time to regurgitate some previous posts to hit some subjective reqs!

Skymin isn't broken in the most traditional sense of having no checks/counters or counterplay or w/e term you want to use, so I'll be avoiding that route. Since it can be possibly played around if you're good at outplaying coinflips between protecting, switching, air slash flinches among other things and forcing it to waste turns since it's restricted solely to single target moves!

Before I begin talking about skymin's individual properties, let's start off with the so called counterplays that everyone rags on about. They're as follows, thunder wave, weather sweepers, tailwind, trick room. random priority.

Thunder wave - Invalid unless you either A. outspeed or B. have prankster, the former of which is restricted to deoxys/a/s which are questionable in itself and the latter being mostly seen on thundurus-i and klefki, both of which will almost certainly have it. Now although prankster thuner wave can beat skymin and a paralyzed mon is essentially a dead mon by definition, no half competent skymin user will let their skymin get paralyzed for free since skymin will almost never have a good reason to stay in and take the full para. So at best, they force skymin out but are in no ways an answer.

Weather sweepers - Seeing as how pwne states that sand/rain are trash, and thus should never be used since they're unviable, I will use the process of elimination and go to the other two weathers sun and hail. Hail itself is restricted to abomasnow (aurorus is shit) and is used solely on trick room, and difficult to use and arguably not good so I'll go in more depth when I discuss tr/priority since aboma relies more on those than its respective weather. That leaves sun sweepers which is restricted to venusaur, which can admittedly outspeed skymin in sun and ohko it, but seeing as how pretty much every skymin is sashed, skymin can live a hit and do huge amounts to venu afterward and thus leaving it crippled for the rest of the game, which again takes out sun's only fast mon which is more often than not still a good trade off for the skymin user so skymin is still relatively effective at crippling sun as well.

Tailwind - there are zero good users of this move outside of talonflame, and tailwind itself isn't really that good as a whole due to being easily protect stalled, and same deal with thunder wave, no skymin user would stay in when tailwind is up. Next

Trick room - Skymin itself can apply pressure to trickroom teams due to its offensive nature+ air slash which makes tr very hard pressed to set up trick room if they even can at all. Though it does get forced out when TR is up, it can put immense pressure on TR teams when tr is down so skymin restricts that heavily as well.

Random Priority - Fake out/sucker punch/brave bird are all that come to mind in terms of usable priority (ice shard users suck, mach punch is resisted and weak to air slash) fake out is a very shaky answer to skymin due to protect mindgames with it. Sucker punch is mostly found on kanga which allows it to beat skymin 1v1 but sucker punch in and out of itself is unreliable bar last mon situations so I wouldn't call this the most secure way of beating skymin. Brave bird outright wins.

So out of all the reliable answers to skymin, you're left with thund-i/klefki, kanga's sucker punch, talonflame. Damn what a huge list of mons that beat skymin reliably! Admittedly some of these are common as hell, but even then, skymin can force constant coinflips (predictions is the more common term) between all of these and thus making it still uncompetitive even among its checks. This is disregarding how much shit skymin beats in and out of itself which is the whole 110 speed tier and below (let's be real here, timid is shit and there is zero reason to run it bar including more coinflips! since it outspeeds nothing remotely relevnt in the metagame bar modest skymin!)

Now let's lead on with what skymin does. It can hax the living shit out of your opponent with air slash to beat anything slower than it without priority, and seed flare which has a 69% of halving special defense which makes skymin switchins essentially nonexistent since even without the enormous chance of halving SpD, it's still a 120bp stab move, the drops are just icing on the cake. The fact that skymin can beat so much with just a single teamslot just shows how dominant and uncompetitive it is since it has minimal counterplay and beats so much in and out of itself, due to its hax factor making would be checks such as zapdos or heattom, little more than death fodder against it in most situations. Due to these reasons, I'm voting ban on skymin. Also lol at how the people that bitch most about hax are the ones leading the charge for keeping skymin unbanned when it's the epitome of hax.
 

lax

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hi here are my skymin thoughts :]

To put it bluntly, I'm confused about shaymin-sky. For one, I feel that skymin is generally unhealthy for the doubles ou metagame because of the huge reliance of luck with serene grace air slash because those very air slash flinches could change the whole flow of the game to the other direction. Getting one, unfortunate, "skill less" flinch against you could ruin your whole play that turn and mess up your rhythm. Well, that is, if you manage to find a skymin. I've noticed while laddering and getting reqs in dubs that very few used shaymin for some reason as I expected it to be common. However even if you do encounter one, there are many ways to beat it, like, for example, any scarf mons or even something like jirachi using follow me while you kill the shaymin off. Thunder wave and priority is common as well and skymin's bulk isn't the best to say the least. So while the air slash flinch is extremely frustrating and lacks any sort of skill, skymin does not deserve the ban because there are in actuality many answers to it. No ban or abstain if it's an option.
 
Alright , I have been playing this current metagame for a week or two(I have obtained suspect reqs already), and here are my opinions about this monster of a Pokemon, Skymin!


While playing the Doubles suspect , I noticed at high ladder lot's of players were using Skymin, with usually the same repeated strategies as listed below:

All Out Flinch: Opposing players would just use Choice Scarf Shaymin to flinch an opposing Pokemon, while attacking with the other to throw off your momentum in game. Sees really skill less and not competitive at all.

Protect + Flinch: Players would just repeatedly protect and go for flinches with Skymin, and would most likely get them because of Serene Grace. This once again goes back to the luck factor it has in games, and it's not really healthy at all.

I do have to admit though it's very hyped up when it comes down to usage, but with skill less factors like that, it makes the tier unbalanced for everyone, I'm going with BAN.
 
I'm honestly unsure about Skymin. While I perfectly know about this not being a valid argument, I never really had a problem beating Skymin. I also rarely found myself in a situation where Skymin would've been a good pick while teambuilding. The latter might just be the case because it doesn't fit my style of playing.

While I still think it could be banworthy is due to it making the game a lot more uncompetitive. Reasons are obvious: dealing damage while preventing the opponent from doing anything over 50% of the time is simply making the game a lot more random and thus uncompetitive.

There's not much more to say, for me, the only reason to ban it is to make the game more competitive.
 

Idyll

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lol I was too busy for 2 weeks to make a post in here lol rip. Time to do that now I guess.

I'm not exactly sold on what I think about Skymin. While on one hand it's just that one really good mon, it can be said that it crosses the line of competitiveness with it having Serene Grace Air Slash which can bail people out of games. Skymin is a good mon on its own without its ability; it has high speed relative to the meta, good SpA, and a 120 BP STAB move (don't even get me started on the SDef drop that's not bs). It wouldn't be that be much of a bitch to face it didn't have its ability, but the reality is that it has so lol to that.

Being able to flinch things is not a dealbreaker. Never in my DOU tenure have I felt Skymin as something more than "just another threat to prepare for." Countermeasures to it, things that outspeed it, are easily available: any good team should have Speed Control or a fast mon that outspeed a good portion of the meta, including Skymin (FullRoom has a hard time but lol, even then it's a doable thing). Any team that doesn't have any of those isn't really that good tbh, and if a team like described loses to Skymin they can't bitch.

And yeah, it can make things into a favorable 1v1 situation with Air Slash flinching things. But if one gets in that kind of situation at a pivotal point of a match in the first place, aren't they not playing their odds right / weighing risk:reward and are getting outplayed? I mean, in a situation where if Skymin flinches x, then y (teammate) loses to z (skymin partner), shouldn't y be switched out because the odds are clearly not favorable? You have to assume the worst.

That's where my doubt comes in. Having to assume worst case scenario all the time against Skymin is p balls. It's like pretending that Skymin has an autoflinch move that deals damage; it makes you do things you wouldn't actually do if it didn't have Serene Grace, and playing according to a luck factor isn't exactly a sign of an enjoyable (subjective), competitive (kinda objective) game. While I did say that Skymin is a checkable pokemon, its presence isn't exactly or enjoyable (not in the "i dont wanna deal with this" way lolno).

I have mixed thoughts about it, still do until now. Ladder experience did not help as the two Skymin I faced just got dogged out by Skillful Predicts™. While on one hand I feel like it's a beatable metagame threat, on another I feel as if the flinch chance makes it unenjoyable. I'm on the verge of voting to make it go on the reason of being a really good mon that can ALSO outskill things, kinda like giving a bird a jetpack; it's already good (flying) but it also has something that drives it too far (the jetpack). A rather weird comparison, but that's a really tired mad @ ya. I'm still going to mull it over and over, but right not that's what I feel.
 

Checkmater

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Gotta love how there are subjective reqs to vote, while TC was changed specifically to remove them. Kinda defeats the point of changing tc policy to not need posting reqs when you need to meet them to vote in the first place. McMeghan thoughts?

anyhow, time to regurgitate some previous posts to hit some subjective reqs!

Skymin isn't broken in the most traditional sense of having no checks/counters or counterplay or w/e term you want to use, so I'll be avoiding that route. Since it can be possibly played around if you're good at outplaying coinflips between protecting, switching, air slash flinches among other things and forcing it to waste turns since it's restricted solely to single target moves!

Before I begin talking about skymin's individual properties, let's start off with the so called counterplays that everyone rags on about. They're as follows, thunder wave, weather sweepers, tailwind, trick room. random priority.

Thunder wave - Invalid unless you either A. outspeed or B. have prankster, the former of which is restricted to deoxys/a/s which are questionable in itself and the latter being mostly seen on thundurus-i and klefki, both of which will almost certainly have it. Now although prankster thuner wave can beat skymin and a paralyzed mon is essentially a dead mon by definition, no half competent skymin user will let their skymin get paralyzed for free since skymin will almost never have a good reason to stay in and take the full para. So at best, they force skymin out but are in no ways an answer.

Weather sweepers - Seeing as how pwne states that sand/rain are trash, and thus should never be used since they're unviable, I will use the process of elimination and go to the other two weathers sun and hail. Hail itself is restricted to abomasnow (aurorus is shit) and is used solely on trick room, and difficult to use and arguably not good so I'll go in more depth when I discuss tr/priority since aboma relies more on those than its respective weather. That leaves sun sweepers which is restricted to venusaur, which can admittedly outspeed skymin in sun and ohko it, but seeing as how pretty much every skymin is sashed, skymin can live a hit and do huge amounts to venu afterward and thus leaving it crippled for the rest of the game, which again takes out sun's only fast mon which is more often than not still a good trade off for the skymin user so skymin is still relatively effective at crippling sun as well.

Tailwind - there are zero good users of this move outside of talonflame, and tailwind itself isn't really that good as a whole due to being easily protect stalled, and same deal with thunder wave, no skymin user would stay in when tailwind is up. Next

Trick room - Skymin itself can apply pressure to trickroom teams due to its offensive nature+ air slash which makes tr very hard pressed to set up trick room if they even can at all. Though it does get forced out when TR is up, it can put immense pressure on TR teams when tr is down so skymin restricts that heavily as well.

Random Priority - Fake out/sucker punch/brave bird are all that come to mind in terms of usable priority (ice shard users suck, mach punch is resisted and weak to air slash) fake out is a very shaky answer to skymin due to protect mindgames with it. Sucker punch is mostly found on kanga which allows it to beat skymin 1v1 but sucker punch in and out of itself is unreliable bar last mon situations so I wouldn't call this the most secure way of beating skymin. Brave bird outright wins.

So out of all the reliable answers to skymin, you're left with thund-i/klefki, kanga's sucker punch, talonflame. Damn what a huge list of mons that beat skymin reliably! Admittedly some of these are common as hell, but even then, skymin can force constant coinflips (predictions is the more common term) between all of these and thus making it still uncompetitive even among its checks. This is disregarding how much shit skymin beats in and out of itself which is the whole 110 speed tier and below (let's be real here, timid is shit and there is zero reason to run it bar including more coinflips! since it outspeeds nothing remotely relevnt in the metagame bar modest skymin!)

Now let's lead on with what skymin does. It can hax the living shit out of your opponent with air slash to beat anything slower than it without priority, and seed flare which has a 69% of halving special defense which makes skymin switchins essentially nonexistent since even without the enormous chance of halving SpD, it's still a 120bp stab move, the drops are just icing on the cake. The fact that skymin can beat so much with just a single teamslot just shows how dominant and uncompetitive it is since it has minimal counterplay and beats so much in and out of itself, due to its hax factor making would be checks such as zapdos or heattom, little more than death fodder against it in most situations. Due to these reasons, I'm voting ban on skymin. Also lol at how the people that bitch most about hax are the ones leading the charge for keeping skymin unbanned when it's the epitome of hax.
While many of these are good points I feel like you undervalue/depreciate a lot of things, so I'm just going to go through the list of where I disagree with you y/y?

T-Wave: You undervalue how thundurus-i puts enormous pressure on skymin by existence of twave (as you say, it's essentially dead if it gets hit by it). Saying just switch as a response disregards both the switching momentum that twave-using user gets and also the fact that forcing your opponent to switch and sometimes still have to take the twave on a slower mon (say aegislash) still hurts. No one's letting their skymin get paralyzed for free, but having to switch and still take it hurt.

On that note, what are the t-wave switchins? Assuming you're not using bad mons, they are as follows (I took a quick look at viability rankings to refresh memory) Landot, Rotom-Wash, already-evolved Mega-Diancie and Thundurus itself. Landot has an ass matchup (unless stone edge), Rotom-Wash isn't really what one would call a thundurus switchin, mega diancie can get covered by flash cannon and doesn't really wnat to be a "switchin" quite frankly, and thundurus is just thundurus itself, not much to say.

Oh and let me add the skymin is especially crippled by thunderwave. A Kang can be twave'd and still be useful and/or sweep. Skymin getting twave'd literally gives your opponent reverse momentum as your scramble to sac it or switch it out without losing the game.

Weather sweepers: Just because it's a common opinion that sand/rain are unpowerful doesn't mean that a mon that would help their viability should be banned. Although you can dismiss them as skymin answers you can't dismiss them as archtypes that retain their power partially due to skymin. Onto Sun: The point isn't that weather sweepers can beat skymin outright. The point is that, once they outspeed, they can ignore skymin almost completely and not be afraid of it, which is skymin's #1 power, situations where it goes first. Also you disregard how good aboma's matchup vs skymin is.

Tailwind: ok yeah screw tailwind

Trick Room: Yes, Skymin can pressure each set. But once you get the set, if skymin was on the field, two things are going to die. Like, that's literally exactly how it works everytime skymin stays in on the set: shit dies. Btw, Stratos that was a reason I mentioned jirachi and togekiss being better against tr in some contexts... lemme find a replay... http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-doublesou-82281. You can see in this replay that togekiss' redirection forces me to have to switch and burn my tr turns rather than the other way around.

Priority: First of all, Aboma is a hard counter and fits on trick room w/ ice shard. Secondly, you yourself mentioned several times that the answer to skymin on your hoopa-u (albeit you did call it an ass team you still gave it to 20+ people or something) was fake out spam and sand. Fake out is immensely good against skymin because first of all you're flinching the flincher and secondly a lot of skymins HAVE to let their sash be broken or risk getting predicted hard (ie fakeout'ing the other partner and setting field condition/sub/free switches). Let's not forget because kang is balanced fake out + sucker is literally a 2hko

Onto skymin's power: Haxing the living shit out of people: ok fine, but this isn't nearly as consistent as you make it sound, and the moment you slip you lost all your momentum. Also I'm kinda tired of people assuming skymin will always have seed flare on the switchin but always know when the opp is staying in for air slash which is a retarded assumption in itself. If you get yourself into a situation where you can ohko something with seed flare, first of all you should be rewarded by that positioning, secondly that's the only situation besides a double target (lol have fun risking that protect) in which you get room to flare. Nearly almost every other time you're going to be clicking air slash, hoping for the flinch while whittling your opp down. Checks such as zapdos or heattom are not just death fodder, and I don't know where you got that idea that skymin can consistently flinch a mon 9 times in a row without eating a para in return somewhere in there. And while all we've been talking are "checks" and "counterplay" there are also complete hard counters, such as jirachi or togekiss, but surprise surprise the person who put amoonguss as top 3 non-mega doesn't want those to be popular cuz bunnies bunnies bunnies amirite?

Honestly, wake up sheeple, Kang amoonguss mew azumarill literally rampages everywhere if you ban skymin. Not to point fingers but I'm going to point fingers anyways, you yourself have admitted that your ban/no-ban philosophy stems from "how does it affect bunnies".

Anyways a lot of these points interconnected so sorry if they're not in perfectly ordered rows and columns and indexed.

edit: took out the cussing cuz it was late when I typed this
 
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Just came here to say that I believe testing Shaymin is a mistake, it has already been proven by many people that Shaymin-Sky by itself is not broken (which for me was logical and implied but w/e), the only thing that'd make Skymin possibly broken is the luck factor (which is very present). If we assume that Skymin will flinch and drop your SpDef all the time it's a somewhat broken mon but otherwise it isnt at all. In the end, wether or not Skymin is broken comes down to luck.

This also tells me that laddering with it to get reqs is pretty pointless, since it comes down to wether or not you flinch and drop everyone/get flinched and dropped by everyone.

I'd type why I think that luck shouldn't be a factor but everyone else has already done it and I'm not in the mood to type.
 

kamikaze

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My stance on Skymin is very similar to a lot of the points brought up by Yellow Paint previously in the thread. Specifically the below where he talks about how skymin doesnt really have the ability to just spam flinches as much as people have been theorymoning throughout the thread. Rather than reiterating so many points brought up previously in the thread, I wanna focus on this.

"Another thing, skymin rarely has a chance to "spam" air slashes in a dubs match. Skymin is threatened by practically everything, so it has to protect itself or make a prediction rather than spam as one might do in singles. More often than not you have to maneuver its partners around to even get into a position where it's favorable to air slash, assuming limited consequences if the flinch does not happen." - Yellow Paint

Also there were points brought up (moreso at the beginning of the thread) about pokemon like Talonflame being unable to beat Shaymin-Sky just because it has a sash, when Talonflame is one of the best revenge killers to beat Shaymin-Sky. If you are gonna just assume a Shaymin-Sky has a sash never broken throughout the course of an entire game and its a 1v1, then yes Talonflame wont be able to beat Shaymin-Sky but there is rarely ever the case.

Breaking a Shaymin-Sky sash and fainting it is not as difficult as a lot of people have been saying. Along with the priority, speed control, and selection of pokemon that people have been mentioning that Shaymin-Sky struggles there is more subtle counterplay options that people have not been bringing up.

Specifically the argument of "Any pokemon slower than Shaymin-sky is not an option to beat it" is one that I am challenging.
There are a number of pokemon that put shaymin-sky in awkward positions even though shaymin-sky outspeeds it and even though they dont resist Shaymin's attacks.
1. Dragon types (Hydreigon, Latios, Kyurem-B) - These all force shaymin-sky to fish for flinches and they arent even 2hitko'ed from full. A skymin needs 2 flinches and then another turn to KO. All of these pokemon are able to do over half easily with their stab moves back to Shaymin-Sky and kill it after the sash is broken. Latios is actually one of the best underrated options against the infamous Skymin-Keldeo duo that people talk about.
2. Mega Charizard-Y - Once again in order for Shaymin to beat Charizard Y it must flinch Charizard Y 2 turns in a row and then get off a 3rd attack later. This whole time, the Shaymin-Sky user must rely on their partner sufficiently handling Charizard's partner. And you are asking for this all to happen for 3 turns assuming you get all the flinches and that the opponent doesnt bring in something in the partner slot to revenge both your Skymin and partner, which is highly unlikely.
3. Mega Kangaskhan - Yes it has priority in Sucker Punch which will 2hitko after two hits. But it also has Return which will straight up KO shaymin-sky even through sash if it breaks through the 57% chance of flinch which is an option I have done for in the past, especially if it means not giving Shaymin another turn to run away after the first sucker punch. Shaymin generally has to either go for a flinch on kangaskhan to help protect its partner or switch out because of how little it can do offensively back.
4. Aegislash - Earth Power is not even a 2HKO on aegislash. You often have to rely on a flinch to beat aegislash or protecting with shaymin-sky to draw it into blade form so you can use earth power on the following turn. Both scenarios mean that Shaymin sky can not do much to touch aegislash or its partner on the first turn it attacks and goes into blade form. If Shaymin-sky's partner is not able to exert offensive pressure to beat Aegislash's partner(which is not always the case), then with Shaymin protecting it opens the door for Aegislash's partner to strike Shaymin's partner as well as even Aegislash being able to strike Shaymin's partner.
5. Some Misc Meta Pokemon that pressure Skymin and force it rely on its weaker Air Slash flinch or Earth Power to beat even when slower:
- Mega Metagross, Zapdos, Rotom-Heat, Ferrothorn, Togekiss, Jirachi (Mainly listing the ones that have seen a fair amount of usage and arent as niche)

And no this isnt all just theorymoning, as they are pokemon I have used in the past a good amount specifically for the reasons outlined above and they have given a great deal of success at both pressuring and beating Shaymin-Sky.

And yes, most of the above situations require you to break the Shaymin-Sky's sash. But if I have to go into the physics of breaking a sash on Shaymin-sky then people really need to start learning to maneuver their pokemon to get off an attack and just break it through the course of the game. In simple terms, each and every time that skymin attacks, it will expose itself to being attacked and the sash becomes open to be broken. While this may sound overly simplified, the fact of the matter is that when you actually play the game there will be multiple opportunities to do this during the course of the battle. It is not difficult, and nor do I need to write an essay on battle scenarios and how to do it in each one. (Enjoy the above essay instead)

TLDR: In summary, I dont think Shaymin-sky should be treated like it has an immortal sash and that the opponent will never move if the Shaymin-Sky outspeeds it and Air Slashes it. Amongst the prevalent counterplay options mentioned on previous posts such as faster scarf mons, speed control, and priority there is also a wide selection of slower pokemon that put Shaymin-sky into awkward scenarios where it needs to fish for not one but multiple flinches and get them all successfully with such low chance. I respect Shaymin-Sky for the dimension of risk vs reward and it really is not about mindlessly clicking Air Slash to flinch things as people have been saying, as there is often a fair amount of Risk on the Skymin user as well. While it is a powerful pokemon, I havent seen it consistently steal games where its opponent outplayed consistently and lost to the Serene Grace factor to warrant the ban, as a shaymin sky user generally needs not one but multiple serene grace triggers to actually beat an opponent who outplayed and put themselves into a good position.
 
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Yoda2798

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Disclaimer: Okay, so I just learnt that the date for posting reqs is today, so sorry if if anything I say is inaccurate or rushed.
Okay, so to summarize the points of the thread and my thoughts on them and Skymin, lets go! (unintentionally essay-sized post inbound)

So Skymin is one of the fastest, most viable mons in the tier, aided with two strong "haxy" STAB moves and great coverage. The only really relevant set is Sash with Seed Flare / Air Slash / Earth Power / Protect, max Speed and Special Attack, Timid. Ignoring speed control, viable mons such as Lando-T (if Scarf), Mega Gar, Deo-A, Kyurem-Black (if Scarf), Mamoswine (if Scarf) and Genesect (if Scarf) all naturally outspeed and can beat Skymin, without getting flinched. Beyond this, priority users such as Talonflame, Mega Kangaskhan, Bisharp, (Mega) Abomasnow and Weavile can all hit it quite hard with priority. Blaziken can also threaten it and outspeed after 1 turn of Speed Boost. For defensive checks, there are fewer that fully resist it's coverage really in Thundy (both formes), Rotom-Heat, and Zapdos. Beyond this, even resisted priority such as A-Jet from Azu or Mach Punch from fighting types can finish it off from sash, as well as Hail or Sand. Fake Out also threatens Skymin greatly due to the inability to flinch a threat, and due to just plain breaking it's Sash, meaning that most hits will at least just about kill it. Add in various forms of speed control, including TR, and also weather sweepers, and you can find yourself a plethora of ways to outspeed and KO Skymin. Follow Me (since Grass types ignore RP) also makes Skymin far less threatening. P.S Mega Manectric is bad, (Mega) Aerodactyl is viable, although not on the V-rankings, and definitely matches well against Skymin both by itself and by providing Tailwind support.

So there are very few mons which can completely safely switch into Skymin, but this is the same case with a lot of the powerful mons in doubles such as Char-Y and Mega Diancie. The "defensive" checks should only be needed if a team is completely Skymin weak, which teams should avoid since Skymin is very threatening mon due to it's blazing speed. Although it's not hard to fit a mon that beats Skymin onto a team you can still beat it otherwise or if the check dies. I believe that Skymin does not over-centralize the metagame (subjective opinion) and that the removal of it would not shake the metagame that much, compared to something like Kyu-B moving up. Skymin is not some kind of archetype destroying monster, and should not be treated as such. I will not argue about the HO vs full TR matchup, as I believe that is team/matchup-specific and also subjective, but Skymin most definitely does not render full TR unviable, regardless of whether you think full TR is viable or not. The viability of Rotom-W is not based purely on Skymin's presence, and even if it was, Wash-Tom still fares well against many of the HO associates commonly found with Skymin such as Keldeo, Talonflame, and Lando-T.

One reason people want to ban Skymin is due to its ability to outspeed and flinch most mons with a staggering 57% success rate. Some people argue that this means Skymin can just flinch things to death even if there is a better play, and so removes a factor of player skill from the game and replaces it with luck. However, Skymin can only target one mon at the time, meaning that it can be played around with predictions using by Protect or by switching. Sometimes, a very large 43% sometimes, letting Skymin roll the dice will still allow your mon to move, and due to Skymin's frailty and typing most mons in the tier can threaten Skymin with a 2HKO if not flinched. Air Slash can even miss 5% of the time, giving you a free turn to do whatever. The chance to get multiple flinches in a row sinks quickly, with a ~33% for two flinches and ~19% for three - note: this does not affect the individual flinch chances, only the overall chance. Things behind Subs, such as Kyu-B and to a lesser extent Aegis and Heatran (if you Air Slash either of these two you better have a good reason anyways though) can avoid the flinch chance completely. A lot of Skymin's checks can afford to switch into an Air Slash since it isn't super powerful, and to the people saying they will just Seed Flare on the switch, that can work the other way as well if you stay in (e.g. Sludge Bomb Amoonguss staying in on a predicted Seed Flare as they try to catch the switch-in). Speed control also completely removes the flinch chance: with TR turning Skymin's speed back on it with basically everything under the sun outspeeding it; Icy Wind does good damage to it and can get around the rare redirection if they have it; Tailwind means most things bar the likes of Amoonguss or a slow Aegis will outspeed Skymin; T-Wave (Yellow Magic) completely neuters Skymin (a paralyzed mon is a dead mon - a wise doubles player) even if it switches; and Skymin doesn't matchup too well against any weather anyways. If this forces the Skymin out, then good, momentum to you which can be taken advantage of.

Seed Flare, the more powerful of Skymin's STAB moves, is the one that more experienced players argue the problem is. With a 68% factoring accuracy to drop something's Special Defence by 2 (halfing it from neutral) it's easy to see why. Supposed this makes Skymin impossible to switch into, but a lot of Skymin checks do resist Grass (additionaly Bisharp gets a Defiant boost from the drop), and this time, the move has a noticeable 15% chance to miss. As weakening as -2 Sp Def is, you can try to pivot or predict/tect around it, but I do admit it can be quite difficult a situation to get out of. The fact that this allows Skymin to take on CM Cress is balanced, in my opinion, since it means teams can beat a set-up Cress without relying on a crit. However, if you threaten Skymin you can prevent the drop from making a difference, or you can bait the Skymin for your partner to attack. People have stated the power of the infamous Keldeo-Skymin core, and how this combo can beat even a Cress, yet the Cress does have a partner that can do something since Cress is being double targeted (even better if Cress has Protect). Quick Guard Keldeo does not completely stop Talonflame, as Skymin cannot OHKO it from full, while Talon can still FB Skymin (unless flinched) while Talon's partner only has to deal with Skymin, and can even freely target Keldeo, particularly since Quick Guard affects the chance for Protect to work. Most Hyper Voice users greatly threaten the core.

Skymin can be difficult to switch into, but Skymin itself finds trouble coming in bar after a mon dying; or else it will risk it's vital sash being broken. As long as you can keep the right mons or speed control on the field, Skymin will be hard pressed to find opportunities to freely come in. If your opponent has a Skymin, play like they do and don't end up with something like Amoon and EQ-locked Lando on the field. Same as with a lot of mons, you need to make sure you don't lose late game to it (although misses can stop that from happening).

So as I'm sure you can guess, my thoughts on Skymin are currently No Ban. Skymin is definitely a great mon, but definitely not some kind of win button against any team. Skymin does also require player skill as well, as I have proven to myself earlier today when I made a massive choke with Skymin which basically switched my position from nearly guaranteed win to nearly guaranteed loss. As people before me have already said, if you can put yourself in a position where you win if you get that 57% flinch, then well done it takes skill to put yourself in that position. In my opinion, Skymin can be checked without a substantial strain on teambuilding, and is neither broken nor over-centralizing.

Some random additional thoughts on what you are going to vote:
  • Don't vote ban just because Skymin is Ubers in Singles, these are two totally different metagames, and the reasons for banning in singles were different and bans are separate.
  • Don't say "oh, well Skymin introduces chance, we need to ban it" other moves such as Rock Slide and Swagger (which is a totally different case) involve game-changing luck-based effects, among which Pokemon is a game involving chance, which is part of what makes it interesting and not the same game everytime, even if it's the same teams. Also, if these moves are broken then they will be dealt with separately.
  • Don't vote no ban because "Jirachi and Togekiss get Serene Grace flinches but aren't broken" well so do Blissey and DUNSPARCE. It is the combination of traits that Skymin has which makes it so overly good, not just the flinch rate.
  • Don't vote no ban just because "oh Serp and Virizion wouldn't fulfill the same niche as an offensive grass", powerful and broken mons have large niches, and team-specific niches can for the most part be fulfilled by other mons. P.S - don't vote no ban because you can't be bothered/want to build new teams.
  • Don't vote no ban because "it's not broken if you can use it too" that's a sign of something being ban-worthy.
  • Don't vote ban because your team is 6-0ed by Skymin, that's a sign of bad teambuilding as you should consider and prepare for all top threats in the metagame.
  • Don't vote ban/no ban purely due to 1 on 1 matchups, as doubles is far more intricate than that and this thought process is in reality far closer to what would happen in a singles match.
  • Don't vote ban/no ban just because someone you know/admire is one way or the other, or because someone told you to vote that way.
  • Don't vote no ban because "low ladder usage/didn't see on ladder, not broken", the ladder is not a reliable source of data.
  • Don't vote ban because "Skymin-Keldeo too OP", teams should be prepared for common cores, and this duo is definitely not unbeatable by any means.
  • Don't vote ban/no ban because "Skymin is my favourite mon/if Skymin is banned my favourite mon is more viable", that's fine to have favourite pokemon, just don't let that affect this decision which will affect everyone.
  • Don't vote ban because "of this one time I lost due to getting flinched 6 times in a row", everybody loses to hax sometimes, it's not just Skymin that can do that.
If there are any of my points that you would like to address/argue, please do (or point out any mistakes/typos I've made lol)
 
Sorry for my English Lol i' m french I made a fast text I did not know too much what to write on the base I have was brief

My opinion on skaymin and simply that it a pokemon as the others it than i want to say what there what it is to deceive but not as much as that he maybe to stop by many of pokemon i admit that flinch air slash his fact to fume here is if you had a pokemon kind thundurus you would not have pain in had to para and it is not any more of no use i think that shaymin should not be ban
 

Stratos

Banned deucer.
Sorry for my English Lol i' m french I made a fast text I did not know too much what to write on the base I have was brief

My opinion on skaymin and simply that it a pokemon as the others it than i want to say what there what it is to deceive but not as much as that he maybe to stop by many of pokemon i admit that flinch air slash his fact to fume here is if you had a pokemon kind thundurus you would not have pain in had to para and it is not any more of no use i think that shaymin should not be ban
christ
 

p2

Banned deucer.
Skymins retarded speed tier coupled with Serene Grace creates an unhealthy restriction on teambuilding and a lack of counterplay. Common methods used to beat it aren't even reliable considering shit like Quick Guard Keldeo is one of Skymins best teammates, completely shutting down priority and allowing skymin to fire off Air Slashes and Seed Flares coming off its solid 120 SpA, while having a 60% chance to create a free turn and a 80% chance to completely shit on whatever your opponent has for it. You're forced to run 2 checks at least for it so you don't just constantly lose mons to its flinching / spd dropping bullshit. Playstyles like Tailwind and Trick Room threaten Skymin a lot, but it's never going to stay in when they're up and its just going to switch out if it can't get that flinch on the setter.

Particular mons are screwed over by the flinch chance. Aegislash is often left open after attempting to attack and eating a flinch, partners to Tailwind setters will often protect and if the Tailwind setter is flinched then it's open to attack from Shaymin's partner next turn.

Obviously this assumes the Shaymin partner has a good matchup, but a good player will be able to work those kind of situations and it's easy to exploit a flinch. A lot of people have been arguing no one banks skymin + partner on a flinch, but when fighting a losing battle lategame a play like that can swing momentum and end up winning from behind. Obviously a losing player should be able to swing a match but winning off a 60% flinch chance is pretty bullshit.

Basically Shaymin isn't reliant on hax and has some great tools outside of Serene Grace. But the added spin of the wheel from Serene Grace can tip the tables on a match too easily.

Even though its not very common at all, it's still too restraining on teambuilding and that's why I'll be voting ban.
 
Skymin can easily, with a single flinch, turn an even game into an awful situation for the opponent. A good chunk of damage + a potential flinch that isn't fake out is a nightmare to face off against. A lot of people have said "Serene Grace isn't 100%" but the most optimal play, most of the time, is an awkward switch or protect because the opposing player has to assume the worst. A single flinch can completely flip the momentum of the game so the counterplay can't really be hoping for no flinch or having prankster twave out.

No shit that without decent luck, Hydreigon or Latios or whatever checks Skymin, but Serene Grace gives a solid chance to disable them for a turn and let their partner deal with either your check or force a 1v1 with the other mon. It's not just that it's an offensive threat that can break through its non priority checks, but that Air Slash and Seed Flare give it very useful utility outside of directly threatening things with strong moves. Shaymin has insane support capabilities tacked onto an offensive powerhouse with a mostly unchallenged Speed stat. It forces a faster answer because a slower one could be a liability in battle, making the metagame more offensive and less enjoyable to play. I'm supporting a ban on this thing.
 
Same here as Yoda, just learnt that today was the deadline for posting reqs, so I decided to look up replays of shaymin-sky and try to figure out what I'd vote. People here here have already discussed the qualities that make skymin suspect worthy. However, I saw far too few replays of skymin in action, of how much of a threat it was when on the field.
One of the main replays which show Skymin turning the outcome of a game was a seasonals match between kamikaze17 and PinoyPwnage:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-doublesou-75730
Skymin's flinch on Reuniclus prevented trick room from going up a second time and essentially secured the win for Kamikaze, who could continue to click EQ and clean up with talon.
There was also this winter seasonals finals match:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-doublesou-73782
Here, skymin's flinch on cress allowed deo to win the winter seasonals. Without the flinch, cress would've been able to KO skymin with psychic, and amoong would win it for lasagne from there.

There were far fewer seasonals games where a skymin flinch turned the outcome of a match than I'd assumed at first. Most games had skymin left in the back, usually only getting a switch after sacks. While on the field, it went for safe seed flare/air slash KOs because of the high risk factor involved with trying to get a flinch, along with there generally being a much better play to make.

Skymin usually ends up with very few opportunities where an air slash not flinching is worth the risk. Having said that, there have been enough important matches where this 57% roll has decided the game, for me to consider skymin's presence unhealthy in DOU. As such, I'm voting for skymin to be banned.
 
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I believe shaymin-s does not deserve a ban.

From my experience on the ladder and my experience in the past with smogdubs, shaymin-sky isn't nearly the threat some people are making it out to be. While serene grace air slash is a pain in the ass to deal with, its not something that has a significant impact on the metagame. No one is running a pokemon JUST to deal with it and you could probably count the number of times the luck factor has determined a high level game on your hands. In fact, I believe most players will find that double rock slides from the likes of Scarf TTar/Excadrill/LandorusT/Terrakion are much more threatening potential flinches than shaymin-sky.
 

Arcticblast

Trans rights are human rights
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Just came here to say that I believe testing Shaymin is a mistake, it has already been proven by many people that Shaymin-Sky by itself is not broken (which for me was logical and implied but w/e), the only thing that'd make Skymin possibly broken is the luck factor (which is very present). If we assume that Skymin will flinch and drop your SpDef all the time it's a somewhat broken mon but otherwise it isnt at all. In the end, wether or not Skymin is broken comes down to luck.
I was going to just type the word "no" over and over but I don't think a thousand "no"s could get across how wrong this is.

We are not testing Shaymin-S because of Serene Grace. I've been telling people this in the Doubles room throughout the test, and really putting it into words in the thread is a bit of a regret (but it made for some killer games of Splatoon in the meantime). We are testing Shaymin-S because of its incredible ability to support its teammates while posing an offensive threat of its own. I don't think any arguments about chance hold much water when Shaymin-S is more likely than not to score its desired flinch/drop in a single turn. That's not to say they're totally worthless (there's still an uncomfortably high chance it won't go your way, and shit hits the fan when that happens), but if your reasoning for banning or not banning Skymin is all about Serene Grace, you're not looking at it right.

What makes Shaymin-S so deadly is how it can use its secondary effects (boosted to probability by Serene Grace) to clear a path for whatever's standing next to it. Seed Flare's high drop chance lets a special attacker partner do massive damage to the same target, and in many cases this allows it to OHKO. Even Cresselia is vulnerable to this; Seed Flare drop + Life Orb Keldeo Hydro Pump drops it in a single turn. This creates a situation where beating Skymin and its partner requires you to be able to outspeed said partner and KO one of the two Pokemon. This is where Air Slash comes in. 60% flinch (or 57% or whatever it is) lets Shaymin literally stop its target from acting the turn it's used, making that turn a 1v1 between the two partner Pokemon; this often ends poorly for the player facing Shaymin-S, as Air Slash will often target down the Pokemon that is less threatened by Shaymin-S's partner, giving that player the opportunity to force out or just kill whatever's left. While we're on the subject, this is where Sash shines - even if you don't get that flinch or drop turn 1, you probably haven't been OHKOed; you can pull back and try it again later, and once again you'll probably get it.

Of course you can predict the Air Slash and switch around or just Protect, but the fact of the matter is that without something that actually occurs before Shaymin-S moves, it's incredibly easy for it to shut down whatever it is you're trying to do. It obviously has its checks and counters, but the safest ones mentioned are the ones that actually outrun it - weather attackers, priority (Talon, Thund, Kang, Abomasnow), and really fast things like Mega Aerodactyl/Gengar. Everything else is essentially within Shaymin-S's power to get around by just shutting it down.

I think this is about what it was I wanted to say, save "it's also a potent offensive threat" (which you can tell by looking at the dex honestly).
 
I was going to just type the word "no" over and over but I don't think a thousand "no"s could get across how wrong this is.

We are not testing Shaymin-S because of Serene Grace. I've been telling people this in the Doubles room throughout the test, and really putting it into words in the thread is a bit of a regret (but it made for some killer games of Splatoon in the meantime). We are testing Shaymin-S because of its incredible ability to support its teammates while posing an offensive threat of its own. I don't think any arguments about chance hold much water when Shaymin-S is more likely than not to score its desired flinch/drop in a single turn. That's not to say they're totally worthless (there's still an uncomfortably high chance it won't go your way, and shit hits the fan when that happens), but if your reasoning for banning or not banning Skymin is all about Serene Grace, you're not looking at it right.

What makes Shaymin-S so deadly is how it can use its secondary effects (boosted to probability by Serene Grace) to clear a path for whatever's standing next to it. Seed Flare's high drop chance lets a special attacker partner do massive damage to the same target, and in many cases this allows it to OHKO. Even Cresselia is vulnerable to this; Seed Flare drop + Life Orb Keldeo Hydro Pump drops it in a single turn. This creates a situation where beating Skymin and its partner requires you to be able to outspeed said partner and KO one of the two Pokemon. This is where Air Slash comes in. 60% flinch (or 57% or whatever it is) lets Shaymin literally stop its target from acting the turn it's used, making that turn a 1v1 between the two partner Pokemon; this often ends poorly for the player facing Shaymin-S, as Air Slash will often target down the Pokemon that is less threatened by Shaymin-S's partner, giving that player the opportunity to force out or just kill whatever's left. While we're on the subject, this is where Sash shines - even if you don't get that flinch or drop turn 1, you probably haven't been OHKOed; you can pull back and try it again later, and once again you'll probably get it.

Of course you can predict the Air Slash and switch around or just Protect, but the fact of the matter is that without something that actually occurs before Shaymin-S moves, it's incredibly easy for it to shut down whatever it is you're trying to do. It obviously has its checks and counters, but the safest ones mentioned are the ones that actually outrun it - weather attackers, priority (Talon, Thund, Kang, Abomasnow), and really fast things like Mega Aerodactyl/Gengar. Everything else is essentially within Shaymin-S's power to get around by just shutting it down.

I think this is about what it was I wanted to say, save "it's also a potent offensive threat" (which you can tell by looking at the dex honestly).
As I mentioned in the post, everything you said for me is implied and should be easy for anyone to figure out if they think for a while.

The thing that bothers me is: What makes Shaymin-S so deadly is how it can use its secondary effects (boosted to probability by Serene Grace)

For me, no matter how you look at this, it's still 100% down to luck. Even if you, by miracle, always make the 100% correct plays against Skymin, it can still just flinch/drop you and turn the game around because of luck. This tells me that its deadliness is a result of luck and I hate that.
This fact makes me feel like testing Skymin is a mistake, since depending on the luck of the user it might and might not be a ban worthy threat.

I was also aware that you guys aren't testing Skymin because of Serene Grace, but "because of its incredible ability to support its teammates while posing an offensive threat of its own."
I 100% agree with that, but I believe for the reasons that have already been stated that it is not broken because of that.
 

Arcticblast

Trans rights are human rights
is a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion
As I mentioned in the post, everything you said for me is implied and should be easy for anyone to figure out if they think for a while.

The thing that bothers me is: What makes Shaymin-S so deadly is how it can use its secondary effects (boosted to probability by Serene Grace)

For me, no matter how you look at this, it's still 100% down to luck. Even if you, by miracle, always make the 100% correct plays against Skymin, it can still just flinch/drop you and turn the game around because of luck. This tells me that its deadliness is a result of luck and I hate that.
This fact makes me feel like testing Skymin is a mistake, since depending on the luck of the user it might and might not be a ban worthy threat.

I was also aware that you guys aren't testing Skymin because of Serene Grace, but "because of its incredible ability to support its teammates while posing an offensive threat of its own."
I 100% agree with that, but I believe for the reasons that have already been stated that it is not broken because of that.
Okay since it seems you missed my point, let me make it very clear:

IT'S NOT ABOUT LUCK.

Are you going to leave anything slower in on Skymin and just assume it'll get its move off just fine? Sure, in some cases it's best to wait out the rolls and hope they go your way soon enough, like if you're running a Zapdos perhaps. But most of the time just leaving something in against Shaymin-S is the wrong move: you're going to lose a huge amount of momentum. As I said above, it can turn a battle on its head with a single attack. You don't need luck to get one flinch or one drop when probability is on your side, and you don't need to spend the entire battle Air Slashing away. You just need to click on the right target once.
 

r0ady

People like to invent monsters and monstrosities
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
So from what i saw while laddering with shaymin sky, it seemed pretty underwhelming to me in terms of just sheer offensive presence. It often failed to kill several mons with its powerful seed flare attack and SE hits with air slashes. In fact, instead of looking at my position as "i can keep some serious pressure by nuking something with seed flare" i was looking at is as "o i can completely fuck my opponents whole team over if i get a spdef drop or flinch mon x." And that raises the question of is this mon actually healthy. And to me and my personal experiences this mon is incredibly unhealthy for the doubles ou metagame, as the ability to say "all i need is a flinch or spdef drop and i can win/turn the tables" and have that be a completely viable and completely in your favor chance ruins the tier.
 

tehy

Banned deucer.
We are not testing Shaymin-S because of Serene Grace.
Isaac Asimov attends a lecture by a professor of literature speaking on the subject of science fiction. At one point, the professor launches into an analysis of Asimov's classic short story "Nightfall," explaining what the darkness and the stars represented, etc. No one was more astonished at the analysis than Asimov.

So after the lecture, he went up to the podium, discreetly waited till the professor was alone, and told him the analysis was all wrong. "Well, that is a matter of opinion," the professor said, tolerantly. Not in this case, Asimov told him: "None of what you said was in the author's mind."

"And how can you know that?" the professor asked.

"Because I am Isaac Asimov," was the triumphant reply.

The professor's face lit up. "What a pleasure to meet you," he said, but then added, "But tell me, just because you wrote the story, what makes you think you have the slightest idea what is in it?"



So tell me, just because you suspected Skymin, what makes you think you have the slightest idea what is broken about it?

i've been playing some more with Skymin, and frankly it is quite the powerful team-support tool, and may be broken on its own. But every turn that it is safely in, it creates a near 50 / 50 coin flip. why is that OK? because the odds are with skymin, it's suddenly fine to just let the RNG decide significant portions of the game? because you have some counterplay to it, it's suddenly fine to let the RNG decide significant portions of the game?

i mean, your answer is clearly yes. and a lot of people's answers are no.

edit:

arcticblast said:
Are you going to leave anything slower in on Skymin and just assume it'll get its move off just fine?
'he's going to air slash, i'm switching'
'he's obviously switching out, i should use seed flare'
'he's obviously using seed flare, i'm staying in'
'he's obviously staying in predicting seed flare, i'm using air slash'

looks like i am leaving in my mon about... 50% of the time. actually, regardless of if I predict wrong i'm still right 43% of the time, so let's say about... 71.5% of the time?

granted it's not a full 50 / 50 because people like to play conservative and bad players don't even think of prediction (irrelevant in tournies, but on ladder it's hard to tell who is good). but still
 
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