Resource RU Viability Ranking Thread: Abomasnow and Slowking Discussion

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Oh I wasn't trying to compare it to Sawk. Clearly they're completely different. I was just saying from personal experience I've found those other mons to be more useful. :X (not that Sawk's purpose is sweeping either, more wallbreaking)

Sure nothing directly walls Banette but so many teams just easily take it on. Even getting it in is difficult. It switches into almost nothing non-Mega'd and it also doesn't like taking any neutral or strong resisted attacks even when Mega evolved already. I really think the issue with Prankster not activating t1 is huger than u all think because it forces you to actually USE banette early on in the match (to mega) causing you often to not be able to get hazards up straight away while they do, and we all know how that can spiral out of control

It feels like you're all arguing regarding different sets as well, which is very confusing. Everyone must be aware of how little moveslots it has? It's not even like Durant where it can pick its counters and beat them wholeheartedly, it has to pick mons and not even beat them just wear them down a bit. Aromatisse and Togetic get smacked by Gunk Shot, that's the one group I can see who actually gets "beaten" by an alternative set but I've yet to see a good set which utilises Gunk Shot because you have to drop something useful for it.

honestly it just dies so fast, Qwilfish scald, Megalix EQ even burnt, (Megalix keeps its utility even burnt with SR and Roar to keep out fletch), Seismitoad, all these defensive pokemon just wear it down with ease until it's a non-issue, and they may die but they'll have got hazards up while Banette has done nothing for its own team

Tehy the pokemon I mentioned don't ""outclass"" meganette but they just mesh so much more easily with the current trends in teambuilding. Spiritomb is a LOT easier to fit onto a team because it doesn't take up a Mega slot and is extremely useful against Meloetta, Hitmonlee, Sigilyph, choiced Emboar and Delphox, Pursuit is amazing, and it synergises with more things. Sneasel is a LOT easier to fit onto a team because it doesn't take up a Mega slot and has a stronger Knock Off, amazing priority, and takes on a lot more pokemon reliably like Tyrantrum, Flygon, Sigilyph, all extremely relevant and good. I mean if you just want something that burns shit and wears them down why not use Sigilyph?

im not owned

edit: Esidisi Reckless isn't a nature
 

How is this thing B rank?

Since trying to build a team with it over the last few days it's become painfully clear just how un-useful it is. Its 160 base Attack stat looks great at first but it cannot run a boosting item and it is let down by the low BP of its moves. To demonstrate

252 Atk Emboar Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Togetic: 102-120 (32.5 - 38.3%) -- 97.3% chance to 3HKO

252+ Atk Mega Banette Shadow Claw vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Togetic: 81-96 (25.8 - 30.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

While Togetic may be a bad example because it is threatened by Gunk Shot, this basically demonstrates how Adamant Mega-Banette manages to threaten physical walls even less than a common Scarf pokemon with no boosting nature.

Banette has the hardest time getting its Mega off probably than any mon in the tier because it is so slow and thus needs Prankster activated before Will-O-Wisp or Taunt serve their purpose. It both wastes a Mega slot that could be used for Steelix, and fails to do one of the most crucial functions that Megas have, which is sponge Knock Off, since it is frail and weak to Dark. Priority Will-O-Wisp isn't even that good because so many set-up sweepers run Lum Berry or are Scrafty. Also both Will-O-Wisp and Destiny Bond require you to have sent out Banette earlier on in the match to work which is a huge flaw. I haven't even mentioned its 4MSS as it wants Will-O, Protect/Substitute, Pain Split, Destiny Bond, Taunt, Shadow Claw, Gunk Shot, Knock Off, Sucker Punch and probably more. It's outclassed by Spiritomb, Sneasel , and a bunch of other mons and isn't on par with the B and B- mons like Sawk, Piloswine, Granbull etc, all really solid mons with a clear niche

I think the flaws that I have mentioned as well as its poor matchup against many A and S rank mons like Houndoom are "crippling" enough for it to be placed in C+
My biggest problem with this post is everything you said applies to pokemon higher then it. The part where you said it has a very hard time pulling of a mega applies to glalie but even more then banette since glalie's ice typing is much worse. Also I fail to see how this doesn't have a clear niche since it does because it's a catch all revenge killer for Hyper Offense with prantster destiny bond + taunt being able to remove. And I'd like to know how this is outclassed by sneasel because both aren't even comparable. And while it does lose to some common pokemon this isn't 1 v. 1 it's 6 v. 6. And I don't actually see how not absorbing knock off is a poor thiny since the most common users like scrafty, sneasel, and hitmonlee
all just break through steelix with fighting stab in hitmonlee and scrafty's case or wear it down with low kick in sneasel's case. Oh the fact it uses a mega slot is kinda just not that notable in this tier since we only have 5 megas.
 
My biggest problem with this post is everything you said applies to pokemon higher then it. The part where you said it has a very hard time pulling of a mega applies to glalie but even more then banette since glalie's ice typing is much worse. Also I fail to see how this doesn't have a clear niche since it does because it's a catch all revenge killer for Hyper Offense with prantster destiny bond + taunt being able to remove. And I'd like to know how this is outclassed by sneasel because both aren't even comparable. And while it does lose to some common pokemon this isn't 1 v. 1 it's 6 v. 6. And I don't actually see how not absorbing knock off is a poor thiny since the most common users like scrafty, sneasel, and hitmonlee
all just break through steelix with fighting stab in hitmonlee and scrafty's case or wear it down with low kick in sneasel's case. Oh the fact it uses a mega slot is kinda just not that notable in this tier since we only have 5 megas.
It doesn't apply to Glalie at all because it's much faster both before and after Mega Evolving and has decent defenses as well as a good matchup against common leads like Flygon, Seismitoad, Accelgor, and Qwilfish, although admittedly a poor one vs MegaLix

Hyper Offense will be slowly draining its chances to win during all the time it's not setting up hazards or setting up, and you often find you either have a Mega'd Banette with no hazards on the opposing field or hazards on the opposing field but haven't mega evolved so Flygon just defogs yr hazards

Also Sneasel doesn't beat Steelix
 

Punchshroom

FISHIOUS REND MEGA SHARPEDO
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MBanette isn't that fantastic but it slots in nicely in B; it's easily one of the trickiest mons to play around in the tier due to how easily it can snag a KO. In fact a well played MBanette usually snags a KO at least, as it isn't incapable of aiming for more. While it can struggle against HO, as long as it isn't OHKOed it can threaten a KO in return by alternating between DBond and a non-priority attack, or it can use Protect to get the Mega off for free and trades KOes with nearly every setup sweeper in the tier bar Fletchinder; alternatively, MBanette can also look to get a free Mega Evolution by threatening a KO with Sucker Punch against weakened mons or the numerous Psychics of the tier. Against slower teams where it is harder to pull off the "inescapable" Destiny Bond, MBanette can instead rely on its powerful (and for the most part unresisted, as powerful Ghost attacks are a tad unprepared for in the tier) STAB Shadow Claw + Will-O-Wisp (+ Gunk Shot, if you will) to tear away at them, and it can always threaten a DBond when it does risk getting KOed.

Being a nice catch-all against most setup sweepers in the tier while possessing decent stallbreaking potential is certainly enough to give MBanette a solid niche. The 4MSS is a fair point against it as it can only fulfill so many roles at once, but it is by no means bad enough at them to be only C+ worthy.
 
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Nominate Meloetta To S Rank
I would like to make this nomination because of just how hard hitting and over powering meloetta is, with the move set of Hyper Voice/Psychic/Focus Blast/Dazzling gleam or u-turn (which is commonly run on the specs set) meloetta can successfully 2 hit KO Most if not all of the RU meta. Meloetta also has decent bulk and speed to support itself with and stated before it gets access to u-turn for pivot if needed to switch out, the thing that knocks meloetta down quite a lot now is venomoth's arrival to RU which is a huge threat to it, but it still can not switch in but is another check. Meloetta can also run a Sub CM set or just an offensive CM set for more sweeping capabilities and with its massive spd it can invest in defense for more bulk and easily set up on common walls such as, Mola, amoongus, aromatisse, and jellicent. Meloetta is a bulky offensive threat that can rek havoc in the RU meta and i believe should rise to S Rank
 
Hmmm...I support the above decision, though only tentatively.

Meloetta is an omnipresent threat in the metagame, and one that is quite difficult to prepare for exactly. While Spiritomb with Pursuit can check the Choiced sets by switching in after a KO (as it really hates taking Dazzling Gleam or being pivoted off of by U-turn), it enters a 50/50 with SubCM sets. Dark-Types like Houndoom and Sneasel dare not switch in, and while they hit Meloetta hard, there is a Colbur CM Meloetta set that can retaliate powerfully versus them. This is, additionally, not considering the fact that it can run a Relic Song set that has a 40% chance of putting the opponent to sleep and also changing Meloetta into her very threatening Pirouette form, which renders the previous checks somewhat moot and forcing the opposing player to reconsider his or her gameplan.

I've used a few of these sets and will admit, individually, they are sometimes underwhelming. However, I would like to draw attention to Meloetta's sheer versatility in RU coupled with its amazing stats. The natural forme's extremely solid 100/77/128 bulk coupled with an impressively high 128 SpA and a reasonable 90 base Speed make it threatening both offensively and defensively. On the rare times it does switch into the Pirouette form, it exchanges the SpA and SpDef for 128 Speed and Attack, which, coupled with access to Knock Off and Close Combat, is hard to easily check. This, combined with a multitude of viable (though some are rarer than others) sets makes playing against Meloetta almost a guessing game, and while assuming Choice is often the safe way to go, it is all too easy to sacrifice checks and counters only to find out the set is actually CM.
 

tehy

Banned deucer.
here o bandwagon

Meloetta is just so versatile. SubCM alone can theoretically choose any two moves and work well, although some are less good than others obviously. i'm using it as my stall wincon and it works pretty ok at that. it's got LO CM, SubCM, Specs, even Relic Song and AV, with basically no hard counter and only one good, strong check in Spiritomb. on top of this, it has basically any coverage move or utility move you could toss on if you wanted-things like u-turn and knock off might be godsends for other mons, but meloetta disdains these for the most part.

it's extremely powerful, fairly fast, and quite bulky too.

melo is just so intensely solid, S rank forever.

edit:

not to be on bummer's nuts or anything but the tyrantrum picture is really excellent

rip pepe though i will say
 
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atomicllamas

but then what's left of me?
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Alright, after playing the meta for a bit, I'll throw in my input about S and A+ rank. So I don't think Flygon is S rank material at all, don't get me wrong its really good, but I don't think I'd put it in the top 4 Pokemon, its maybe somewhere at the edge of my top 10. Its a great defogger, but its offensive sets are pretty underwhelming, with scarf being weak as balls and LO Defog Special not having quite enough slots to fit in everything it wants. The defensive defog set is pretty neat, and probably its best set at the moment, and I do appreciate the way it generally takes care of rock setters w/ STAB EQ, but I really don't think its S rank worthy at all, as pretty much every time you don't click U-turn you cede a ton of momentum to your opponent, and people have even started running Ice Punch Rhyperior, which isn't even bad considering it pops Grasses as well and Reuniclus and Cress don't necessitate Megahorn anymore. So basically Flygon from S --> A+.

The next Pokemon I think is just rated way too highly at the moment is Jellicent, I seriously don't see the appeal now that Cobalion has left, a fighting immune on a bulky water is nice until you realize it still gets beat by every relevant fighting type except Medicham, and that it doesn't have nearly the splashability that Alomomola does. Hell, Alomomola actually takes on the special fires AND Emboar better when running a SpD set with Waterfall than Jellicent does (seriously Waterfall on SpD Mola is really cool rn x_x). Jellicent is nice because it can be painful for stall to work around given it has a relatively quick taunt, wisp, and hex, as well as reliable recovery and a scald immunity, but you can also just toss a little bit of speed in mola and toxic it before it taunts you, or switch to Roselia and spam giga drain or even fish for poison w/ sludge bomb, then spam giga drain. I just don't think the meta is nearly as kind to jelli now as it was when Cobalion and Reuniclus roamed the tier, and Jellicent was the only Pokemon capable of beating both with one move set. But now its like, sure it has utility, but what am I actually walling? And why am I giving a free switch into Exploud or Houndoom on a balanced team, that seems stupid. So Jellicent A+ --> A- imo.

Mega Steelix is the best Pokemon in the tier right now, and I don't really think I need to explain why but, it fits on literally every playstyle except HO, has SR, incredible defensive typing, hard counters every electric except Specs Rotom-C. You can also just throw sleep talk on it, and bop best sleep switch in, in the tier, sorry moth, sorry Amoonguss, maybe next time. Mega Steelix is S rank bro.

Mega Glalie
should probably move down to A+, as I'd rather use Steelix on pretty much all teams except HO or some bulky offense, still a great mon though.

S rank
Scrafty
Mega Steelix
Tyrantrum

A+ rank
Alomomola
Flygon
Mega Glalie
Meloetta
Sneasel
Venomoth
Virizion


I think an argument could be made for Scrafty and Venomoth to switch places as well, but I'm not convinced either is better, nor am I convinced that either is S rank (or not S rank, very undecided). Actually same with Tyrantrum, I could see that dropping as well.

Also Togetic to A-, Nasty Pass is still great on balance and offense as a solid fighting switch in and Scrafty counter, Heal Bell Defog is a staple on defensive teams, I really disagreed with it dropping in the first place. I would literally use Togetic before every other B+ mon on the list, and before everything in A- barring Delphox, Jolteon, Qwilfish, and Seismitoad, but maybe thats just me \o/. JK I'd probably use Togetic before all those as well, A rank togetic next ;o.
 
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phantom

Banned deucer.
updates:

Mega Glalie down to A+
Steelix up to S
Jellicent down to A-
Mega Bannete down to B-
Escavalier up to A-
Fletchinder up to A
Golbat up to B-
Roselia up to C+

needs more discussion:

Flygon down to A+ or stay in S
Togetic up to A- or stay in B+
Meloetta up to S or stay in A+


In all honestly, I think Togetic is fucking garbage and I don't understand why it gets the usage/hype it does. I'd sooner move it to B than A-. It's not a counter to Scrafty at all, considering Head Smash + Knock Off is more than enough to bring it down. A well played Scrafty with any Super Effective hit can beat it even, so calling it a counter is a stretch. In fact, it's the easiest Fairy for Scrafty to beat due to how exploitable is it. Its SR weakness, dependency on Eviolite to an extent, and general passivity makes it a Pokemon I'd use on stall builds only (seriously stop using Togetic on balance when Flygon exists). It's also not a very good Defog user due to how it fairs so badly against many of the common Stealth Rock setters. Really, it's only saving grace is the fact that it counters Flygon because Iron Tail is just exceedingly rare on it and it has a one-turn Recovery move unlike the other Fairys, but outside of that, it's just mediocre at everything it does. NastyPass is a cute niche I guess, but a set like that is dependent on having good receivers, which there aren't that many of, so I wouldn't move it up based on the merits of a set that is hard to incorporate on any given team. It's just a really really overrated Pokemon and I find it difficult how people can argue against its mediocrity given it's huge number of flaws that prevent it from excelling in any given matchup.
 

-kal-

hi guys
is a Contributor Alumnus
-> Down to A+ Rank: Agree
Flygon is not really an S rank anymore I feel. I think whats holding it back from being A+ Rank (well for me at least), is its versatility and its defensive set. Sure it can run many sets viably, but its not particularly amazing at the particular set it runs. Defensive sets desires just some more bulk to better take on threats in RU. Flygon also has lackluster offensive stats, especially on the Choice Scarf set and does not offer as much firepower as Tyrantrum. Defensive sets, if do not run Dragon Tail, are usually setup fodder to the likes of Fletchinder and Scrafty. Pokemon that are really good such as Alomomola and Sneasel also troubles this a lot while Fairy-types are a bane for this unless it runs the rare Iron Tail. Physical sets are also kinda Tangrowth bait and most Electric- and Ground-types that it commonly checks will always have something for it. (HP Ice Jolt and Rupt). Don't get me wrong, Flygon is still a great defogger (possibly the best) and has a great defensive typing but its not like its being nommed to A- so A+ Rank should suffice for this in the current metagame.

-> Up to S Rank: Agree
Meloetta is definitely a top tier threat atm. Being able to run many different sets viably, Meloetta is also very versatile. In this current metagame where it is inclined to physical attackers, Meloetta really shines for beating many popular bulky Water + Steel cores. Specs is disgustingly powerful, being able to 2HKO the majority of the tier while also being able to have a decent matchup against offense, Sub+CM is also a very fearsome win condition and gives many defensive teams trouble. Scarf is alright I guess, being able to play the role or a revenge killer. One set I feel is underrated is LO+CM. Meloetta is already hitting very hard with its Life Orb boosted attacks and with a +1 boost (which isn't very hard to boost against in defensive teams), Meloetta can easily dent common balanced builds. Meloetta also sits in a pretty high Speed tier, being able to outspeed the likes of Hitmonlee and Venomoth. This is also complemented by Meloetta's great bulk as it is able to take and pivot into weakened attacks which means it relatively has an easy time getting a safe switch. Meloetta also sports impressive coverage options, Focus Blast for Mega Lix while Dazzling Gleam for Scrafty and Spiritomb. Meloetta is something that many teams have to be prepared for as it does create very little free turns for a majority of the mons in this tier. It is kinda hindered by Sneasel and Venomoth. Overall, Meloetta is a big threat in this current metagame and is worthy of a rise to S rank imo.
 

Lord Death Man

i cant read
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I don't think Togetic should rise to A-, but not because it doesn't counter Scrafty (since I think beating through it's counters is kind of what makes Scrafty good, though Aromatisse and Granbull are better counters/checks idk which applies). Rather, it's how it just kind of sits there and dies even when it fully walls something, since it struggles to do anything back to things that aren't Scrafty or maaaybe Flygon. It tries to fit two vital roles (Scrafty check and hazard removal) on one set, but ends up often struggling to do either. It doesn't do very much with the free turns it generates except get rid of rocks that Megalix/Rhyperior/any SR mon but Druddigon is probably going to throw back up in it's face. As a cleric it's lackluster, as a scrafty check it's questionable, as a hazard remover it's pretty awful, it fits on teams better than a lot of other B or even B+ rank mons but that doesn't make it good, it just means it compresses like a dozen roles into one thing that can't even pull more than one off a match. I think most things in A- are better than it too - maybe not Zong or Aromatisse (Roar Megalix can turn Aromatisse into outright dead weight and it doesn't have a super favorable matchup against anything offensive right). I haven't tried Nastypass on Togetic but I've never felt it was overly threatening facing it because it's usually pretty telegraphed (ie paired with a different hazard remover), but maybe I'm missing something. Non-defog sets are the only time Togetic feels "good" and even then it's only for the moves it gets that Aromatisse doesn't.

I support Meloetta for S, it's just a solid mon. Good bulk, decent speed tier, very strong, great movepool, super versatile. It has like two "counters" in Spiritomb and Escavalier - and both can get fried by the appropriate coverage moves, and Tomb needs black glasses to trap an uninvested Meloetta which means catching a specs Dazzling Gleam is still a loss. 252+ Atk Spiritomb Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Meloetta: 282-332 (82.6 - 97.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (specs Dazzling Gleam can miss the KO back but whatever).

Don't really have super strong opinions on anything but Venomoth moving to S, I don't really think that Scrafty should drop but it just so happens nearly every metagame trend to "beat"/revenge Venomoth (Scarf Delphox and Fletchinder being the most notable) negatively impacts Scrafty, as does Venomoth's affect on balance which I felt Scrafty had the best match up against. I still think Scrafty is a solid S-rank mon despite that. I also don't think Tyrantrum should drop since it's still a ridiculously good wallbreaker and has decent type synergy with a lot of set-up sweepers, but it's negatives become more and more obvious as the metagame shifts away from balance and towards a polarized offense/stall meta.
 

Shadestep

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what is the exact reasoning for M-Steelix being S-Rank now? (not judging or hating, just want to know the thought-process that went through)
 

eren

je suis d'ailleurs
what is the exact reasoning for M-Steelix being S-Rank now? (not judging or hating, just want to know the thought-process that went through)
Well, M-Lix is one of the most splashable and versatile mons in the tier. Due to the relative low amount of megas, there isnt much of an oppurtunity cost. Furthermore, it checks so much in the meta like Sneasel, Fairy Types, Tyrantrum amongst others. On the note of versatility, it can run moves to beat certain checks including Stone Edge for Fletchinder, solo Sleep Talk for Venomoth and Amoongus, and even RestTalk Roar which ive run to decimate Sneasel and also to Roar Scrafty and prevent it from setting up. I probably explainex it terribly but im agreeing Steelix for S
 

Shadestep

volition immanent
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Well, M-Lix is one of the most splashable and versatile mons in the tier. Due to the relative low amount of megas, there isnt much of an oppurtunity cost. Furthermore, it checks so much in the meta like Sneasel, Fairy Types, Tyrantrum amongst others. On the note of versatility, it can run moves to beat certain checks including Stone Edge for Fletchinder, solo Sleep Talk for Venomoth and Amoongus, and even RestTalk Roar which ive run to decimate Sneasel and also to Roar Scrafty and prevent it from setting up. I probably explainex it terribly but im agreeing Steelix for S
aight yeah i can see the points of it being S Rank. however i do not agree with you saying that it is one of the 'versatile' mons in the tier. it basically has 1 moveset, and can afford to change 1 coverage move regarding to the weakness of your team. other points you made I totally agree to :]
 

eren

je suis d'ailleurs
aight yeah i can see the points of it being S Rank. however i do not agree with you saying that it is one of the 'versatile' mons in the tier. it basically has 1 moveset, and can afford to change 1 coverage move regarding to the weakness of your team. other points you made I totally agree to :]
Yeah I misspoke in that regard, I meant versatile in general to be able to change movesets : )
 

P is For Penguin

formerly MainEvent
aight yeah i can see the points of it being S Rank. however i do not agree with you saying that it is one of the 'versatile' mons in the tier. it basically has 1 moveset, and can afford to change 1 coverage move regarding to the weakness of your team. other points you made I totally agree to :]
umm it can be rocks SpDef or offensive.
 
I support Flygon for A+. Like others, I dislike the Choice Scarf set a lot. The fact that BOTH of its STABs have common immunities makes it difficult to do much early to mid game, especially against any balance or stall team, and it cannot even revenge kill effectively due to its lack of power. Say you're forced to use Outrage instead of Dragon Claw to finish off a 60% Virizion. Congrats, you've just given Intimidate Dragon Dance Scrafty / Curse Steelix / (insert other threats that laugh at Scarf Flygon's attacks here) free set-up. The Life Orb Defog set it better at what it does due to its ability to threaten SR users, but it's still far from dominant 1-1; for a frail Pokemon lacking elite Speed, it doesn't really wallbreak well at all due to its 4MSS. Its main purpose is to use Defog, sure, but you won't always need to get a Defog off and defensive teams have a pretty easy time dealing with it because Flygon has an awful time breaking by Jellicent, Fairies, Golbat, and other pesky Pokemon. The defensive Defog set is definitely its best bet, it isn't really frail like the LO set and can switch in easier on Mega Steelix and company in a pinch. It's less threatening than its other sets obviously, but doesn't pretend to be something its not. That set + its relative versatility feel more A+ worthy than S to me, it's a really solid Pokemon but nothing about it is metagame defining.


I'm not entirely convinced that Scrafty is S material either. IMO Scrafty is a bit better than Flygon, but looking at the definition for S rank, I'm not convinced that Scrafty hits the first -- and arguably most important -- criteria.

Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths.

Scrafty certainly cannot wall a significant portion of the metagame with its average HP stat and defensive typing, and it cannot sweep a signficant portion of the metagame either. The Bulk Up set is victimized by fairies and strong Fighting-types, Dragon Dance outright loses to LO Tangrowth, Choice Scarf users, Fletchinder, and certain walls (Aromatisse) even at +1, and Choice Band is obviously not used for sweeping or walling. Pokemon like Qwilfish are also a major pain in Scrafty's side. Scrafty's access to Knock Off and neat coverage moves allow it to potentially circumvent weakened counters, but good luck OHKOing a physically defensive Aromatisse with a boosted Iron Head. Scrafty definitely needs more than a little support, especially with fairies, fighters, birds, and Choice Scarf users all being common in this metagame.

I don't argue that Scrafty is versatile, even though I despise the Bulk Up set and would never use it (fairy bait, doesn't offer enough synergy, etc). Scrafty is bulky, has a movepool that allows it to reasonably threaten its checks and counters, STAB Knock Off, and many ways to get the most out of that 90 Attack stat (STAB 130 BP move / Dragon Dance set / Choice Band set / Bulk Up set / etc.) It's really good but not dominant at all, on paper or in practice. A+ imo.
 

Ajna

i tell my ppl i don't need love but
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I support Flygon for A+. Like others, I dislike the Choice Scarf set a lot. The fact that BOTH of its STABs have common immunities makes it difficult to do much early to mid game, especially against any balance or stall team, and it cannot even revenge kill effectively due to its lack of power. Say you're forced to use Outrage instead of Dragon Claw to finish off a 60% Virizion. Congrats, you've just given Intimidate Dragon Dance Scrafty / Curse Steelix / (insert other threats that laugh at Scarf Flygon's attacks here) free set-up. The Life Orb Defog set it better at what it does due to its ability to threaten SR users, but it's still far from dominant 1-1; for a frail Pokemon lacking elite Speed, it doesn't really wallbreak well at all due to its 4MSS. Its main purpose is to use Defog, sure, but you won't always need to get a Defog off and defensive teams have a pretty easy time dealing with it because Flygon has an awful time breaking by Jellicent, Fairies, Golbat, and other pesky Pokemon. The defensive Defog set is definitely its best bet, it isn't really frail like the LO set and can switch in easier on Mega Steelix and company in a pinch. It's less threatening than its other sets obviously, but doesn't pretend to be something its not. That set + its relative versatility feel more A+ worthy than S to me, it's a really solid Pokemon but nothing about it is metagame defining.


I'm not entirely convinced that Scrafty is S material either. IMO Scrafty is a bit better than Flygon, but looking at the definition for S rank, I'm not convinced that Scrafty hits the first -- and arguably most important -- criteria.

Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths.

Scrafty certainly cannot wall a significant portion of the metagame with its average HP stat and defensive typing, and it cannot sweep a signficant portion of the metagame either. The Bulk Up set is victimized by fairies and strong Fighting-types, Dragon Dance outright loses to LO Tangrowth, Choice Scarf users, Fletchinder, and certain walls (Aromatisse) even at +1, and Choice Band is obviously not used for sweeping or walling. Pokemon like Qwilfish are also a major pain in Scrafty's side. Scrafty's access to Knock Off and neat coverage moves allow it to potentially circumvent weakened counters, but good luck OHKOing a physically defensive Aromatisse with a boosted Iron Head. Scrafty definitely needs more than a little support, especially with fairies, fighters, birds, and Choice Scarf users all being common in this metagame.

I don't argue that Scrafty is versatile, even though I despise the Bulk Up set and would never use it (fairy bait, doesn't offer enough synergy, etc). Scrafty is bulky, has a movepool that allows it to reasonably threaten its checks and counters, STAB Knock Off, and many ways to get the most out of that 90 Attack stat (STAB 130 BP move / Dragon Dance set / Choice Band set / Bulk Up set / etc.) It's really good but not dominant at all, on paper or in practice. A+ imo.
I wouldn't mind seeing Flygon drop to A+, but how does Scrafty not sweep a significant portion of the meta? Without a dedicated check like the ones you mentioned, Scrafty can shred through a team. The problem with these mons is that they either don't have reliable recovery, they're momentum killers on balance, or they are worn down by rocks. There are very few reliable offensive checks to Scrafty in the tier right now, and certain scarfers can't even be used because they can't reliably check Scrafty. The other thing is that the scarfers that do revenge it can't reliably switch into Scrafty due to Knock Off. This makes it so that balance is forced to run a hard check, and a scarfer to beat Scrafty. You also mentioned that Scrafty needs support to break through bulky fairy types, but with a roseli berry it beats all of them on the switch bar Granbull, once lefties are gone.

On another note, I would like to nom Venomoth for S rank. It's at the point where people(including myself) are forced to run sleep talk on Mega Steelix just to beat it. Due to it's typing and access to sleep powder, offensive pressure is unfortunately not enough to stop Moth. Even with sleep talk, Mega Lix still can't reliably beat Venomoth even when assuming that you sleep talk on the first powder, or switch into a powder. It's not a reliable check because Max max Lix has a 90% chance to be 2hkoed by a plus 1 life orb bug buzz after rocks, then you have to account for the 1/3 chance in which you pull Stealth Rock with your Sleep Talk. Even Emboar with sleep talk, which would seem like a reliable check, is ohko'd by a plus one life orb sludge bomb after rocks. Besides Escavalier, two of the only mons that can reliably check/revenge Moth are scarf Delphox, and Fletchinder. Unfortunately these mons are both worn down quickly by rocks, and don't appreciate switching into a sludge bomb.
 

tehy

Banned deucer.
in other news, durant is definitely S rank worthy but tagging people in a combative way just pisses them off

;

Flygon to A+ i absolutely support. it's just not that good...the defensive defog set is very nice but doesn't wall that much and is fairly short on moveslots (dual stab, roost, defog, u-turn, and i personally run fire coverage so...). offensive defog is arguably its best set and I never see it, scarf is cool but doesn't really have much killing potential as compares to other scarfers.

togetic learns defog, heal bell, and scrafty hard check, 3 of the most important roles to exist on a stall team. and roost too. but it doesn't wall too much, so...meh overall, i'd be fine with either but it's important to understand why people use it

like i already said, melo is dominant as hell. easiest S of my life...

edit:

Personally, i'd like to ask why Mega Glalie has dropped

sure, it faces competition with M-lix, but if you're using a rhyperior or seismitoad (two excellent mons in their own right) then it's wide open for Mega Glalie. which is good because it's a fucking monster. barely anything strongly checks it, let alone wall it...it has spikes, refrigerate explosion, ice+ground coverage and stab Ice shard.

frankly it annoys me and a few other people that 1 sentence from a tier leader can amount to a rank change. why isn't there more discussion on this?
 
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atomicllamas

but then what's left of me?
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I wouldn't mind seeing Flygon drop to A+, but how does Scrafty not sweep a significant portion of the meta? Without a dedicated check like the ones you mentioned, Scrafty can shred through a team. The problem with these mons is that they either don't have reliable recovery, they're momentum killers on balance, or they are worn down by rocks. There are very few reliable offensive checks to Scrafty in the tier right now, and certain scarfers can't even be used because they can't reliably check Scrafty. The other thing is that the scarfers that do revenge it can't reliably switch into Scrafty due to Knock Off. This makes it so that balance is forced to run a hard check, and a scarfer to beat Scrafty. You also mentioned that Scrafty needs support to break through bulky fairy types, but with a roseli berry it beats all of them on the switch bar Granbull, once lefties are gone.

On another note, I would like to nom Venomoth for S rank. It's at the point where people(including myself) are forced to run sleep talk on Mega Steelix just to beat it. Due to it's typing and access to sleep powder, offensive pressure is unfortunately not enough to stop Moth. Even with sleep talk, Mega Lix still can't reliably beat Venomoth even when assuming that you sleep talk on the first powder, or switch into a powder. It's not a reliable check because Max max Lix has a 90% chance to be 2hkoed by a plus 1 life orb bug buzz after rocks, then you have to account for the 1/3 chance in which you pull Stealth Rock with your Sleep Talk. Even Emboar with sleep talk, which would seem like a reliable check, is ohko'd by a plus one life orb sludge bomb after rocks. Besides Escavalier, two of the only mons that can reliably check/revenge Moth are scarf Delphox, and Fletchinder. Unfortunately these mons are both worn down quickly by rocks, and don't appreciate switching into a sludge bomb.
Idk, I actually kind of agree with Sweep about Scrafty, the fact is that it is incredibly weak unboosted, and while it is pretty threatening after a boost, it is still quite easy to fit something to deal with it after a boost on your team. The fact that Scrafty doesn't KO 128/0 Tangrowth with +1 LO HJK and is KOed in return by LO Leaf Storm (or Focus Blast, but I don't like missing x_x) is pretty sad. And defensive and balance teams are more than capable of fitting defensive answers to Scrafty on them, as Aroma, Granbull, Togetic, Golbat, and Gurdurr can easily fit on any team from Stall (okay not gurdurr) to Bulky Offense (and there is even more niche stuff like Poliwrath). And the solution to Scrafty's problem's isn't really slapping a resist berry on it, as without LO it loses to even more Pokemon due to its weakness at +1. Every Relevant Scarfer OHKOes Scrafty from full, with the exception of Tyrantrum which does a minimum of 86% with Super Power, and on top of that there is stuff like Fletchling or Colbur Berry Dazzling Gleam Psychics (I like Mesprit for this) that you can tech specifically to defeat Scrafty. Because as customizable as Scrafty is, its initial lack of power just makes it easy to customize a Pokemon that shouldn't counter it, in order to specifically do so. I just think that people are so focused on needing to run Fairies to beat this (which isn't actually true) and the fact that it can sometimes beat fairies (emphasis on sometimes) that they completely over estimate how much

Agree w/ moth to S though.

I'm curious to know why Durant is still A when it has been proven to be S rank worthy. Steelix was moved up and nommed way after Durant.
atomicllamas Spirit
First off, because Mega Steelix is the best Pokemon in the tier and Durant: is not. Secondly,
tagging people in a combative way just pisses them off
Moving on, when was it proven to be an S rank mon? You sticking your fingers in your ears and going, "LALALALA NO COUNTERS LALALA" doesn't prove that Durant is an S rank Pokemon at all, especially since a lot of your argument is predicated on Durant being Choice Scarf Lum LO Band, Hone Claws Dual STAB Super Power BP Sub Crunch Thunder Fang. Don't get me wrong Durant is an excellent mon, but it is not without its flaws. The choiced sets, which are both very solid, have the flaw of having to lock into moves that are pretty terribly individually, Iron Head, its better STAB, just has so many resists, and while its coverage moves such as Crunch and Superpower provide good coverage on non-choiced sets, but they are all individually bad moves to lock into (idk if I'm getting across what I'm trying too but x_x). Hone-Claws is also a good set, but due to poor Special Bulk, it has a pretty hard time setting up, and while its deadly at +1, its not like say, Venomoth where it also is hard to revenge kill at +1, as any offensive (or balance team) without something over base 109 speed is bad and it isn't even due to the existence of Durant. On top of this, common Glue mons just tend to beat Durant, Scarf Emboar is probably the second most common glue mon (after mega Lix) and Scarf Tyrantrum is also a common glue mon on offense. I could see Durant in A+ and was thinking about nomming it for that in my last post, but its not on par with Mega Lix or Venomoth, which I think are the clear S rank right now.

like i already said, melo is dominant as hell. easiest S of my life...
Still pretty neutral about this tbh, I'm not opposed, but I lean towards keeping it A+, while, like the other noms, Meloetta is an incredibly diverse Pokemon, it both suffers from and benefits from the trend of "need something to do 900000 things for my team? I'll add Mega Lix". Its best set, at least imo, is Sub CM, but this is just kind of boned by the presence of Mega Steelix which is on so many teams, however, Specs can work to lure this (and some other things) in with Focus Blast which does help. The base 90 speed, and Psychic typing does hurt, as it is pursuit bait, even more so than Delphox, as Delphox at least outspeed (and 2hkoes) Houndoom and scares Sneasel with the prospect of Scarf Fire Blast, Meloetta does neither of these things, making it "easy" to pursuit trap (as easy as that ever is). Not necessarily opposed tho, as it is incredible, I just think some parts of the meta kinda sit poorly for it x_x.

Also as another nom I think Tyrantrum could drop to A+ (yes I'm proposing a Mega Steelix Venomoth only S rank), I can elaborate more later as to why I think this should happen, but its like 1 AM and I'm tired. So if others want to comment on this, that would be pretty cool.

sure, it faces competition with M-lix, but if you're using a rhyperior or seismitoad (two excellent mons in their own right) then it's wide open for Mega Glalie. which is good because it's a fucking monster. barely anything strongly checks it, let alone wall it...it has spikes, refrigerate explosion, ice+ground coverage and stab Ice shard.
I agree that Seismitoad buids are inherently kind of weak to Mega Glalie, due to the fact that both their SR user and their Bulky Water lose to Mega Glalie, but Seismitoad is maybe the third best Rocker in the tier? (Rhyperior can't switch in, but beats it 1v1) And Mega Glalie means you aren't using the best SR mon. But aside from the competition from Mega Steelix, it also has a wide range of viable counters on all team styles, the rise in Delphox hurts it, Durant (which I've heard was proven to be S rank) switches in on it (doesn't like taking more than one EQ though), SpD mola is now the dominant Mola and that doesn't even mind Freeze Dry too much, (tho it doesn't want to switch in). I just really think Mega Lix and Moth are so much better than everything else that it would be misleading to put them in the same rank as stuff like M Glalie. Like sure we could put M Glalie, Meloetta, Scrafty, Tyrantrum, Durant, and I'd argue Mola is better than at least 3 of those into S rank with Moth and Mega Lix, but then we have 8 Pokemon in S rank, when the reality is there is a huge gap after the top 2, and maybe one of the others is close, but they just aren't S rank.
frankly it annoys me and a few other people that 1 sentence from a tier leader can amount to a rank change. why isn't there more discussion on this?
There is no conspiracy here. Spirit and I and anyone else in the irc chat will discuss noms as they come up in the thread, and we usually come to a conclusion, based on your guys's post as well as our own thoughts (and very few nominations have unanimous support). Nothing is stopping you guys from coming on IRC and discussing them as well as I'd say 80% of the time we discuss in #rarelyused itself. Perhaps we could do a better job responding to some of the nominations in the thread, but we do at least try to give reasoning or let other people's posts speak for us if we don't. Aside from that there are 0 things stopping you from saying, "Hey, I oppose M glalie drop because xyz". Nothing on this list is permanent. Perhaps you and "a few other people" can appreciate the work we actually put into this thread behind the scenes, cause it takes a lot, and I'm pretty glad that Spirit is willing to put so much effort into running this, as it tends to be a pretty thankless job -_-.

note: i didn't make the bold edits in my post, a smod did
Sam
 
Personally, i'd like to ask why Mega Glalie has dropped

sure, it faces competition with M-lix, but if you're using a rhyperior or seismitoad (two excellent mons in their own right) then it's wide open for Mega Glalie. which is good because it's a fucking monster. barely anything strongly checks it, let alone wall it...it has spikes, refrigerate explosion, ice+ground coverage and stab Ice shard.

frankly it annoys me and a few other people that 1 sentence from a tier leader can amount to a rank change. why isn't there more discussion on this?

Glalie dropped most likely because it has no defensive utility meaning it doesn't check anything for the rest of the team which makes it rather hard to fit on offense as offensive teams are built off of resistances and glalie provides none. You know why emboar is so good? Not only is it an offensive powerhouse but it has the ability to check some dangerous offensive stuff like sneasel and houndoom. The point I was trying to make was glalie glalie has no defensive synergy for your team compared to other wallbreakers bar exploud. Also I've stated why durant isn't S is because similarly to glalie it can't switch in on anything like even attacks that aren't all that powerful can dent it as shown in this calc shows how much trouble it has coming in.
252 Atk Flygon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Durant: 124-147 (48.2 - 57.1%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO this probably isn't a great example but scarf flygon doesn't even hit that hard.
Not only does it have trouble switching in on anything it has a pretty bad primary stab in steel making durant quite easy to check as there are a multitude of steel resists on many teams not because durant but mostly to hit bulky steel types in general. Hone claws sets are very deadly and can overpower them but durant sets up on very little making that easier said then done to pull off.

for B+:

Hitmontop is actually pretty damn good right now being a really good glue mon for multiple teams being a really good check to stuff like tyrantrum(only cb outrage is breaking it), glalie(double edge only 3hko's it while glalie obviously is ohko'd back.) Scrafty(neutral high jump kick from DD only 3hkos it while close combat + mach punch guarantees it's dead), Physical flygon, and sneasel. It also has a good matchup vs. most sr setters and while it does lose to qwilfish and garbodor it has 5 teammates in the back to deal with these. While the rise of psychics like delphox and sigilyph do hurt it and spinblockers are annoying(toxic is mandatory on this) the utility it provides by checking many top threats, and hazard removal make me nominate hitmontop to B+
Also I'm gonna bring this nomination back up since it didn't generate any discussion.


The next Pokemon I think is just rated way too highly at the moment is Jellicent, I seriously don't see the appeal now that Cobalion has left, a fighting immune on a bulky water is nice until you realize it still gets beat by every relevant fighting type except Medicham, and that it doesn't have nearly the splashability that Alomomola does. Hell, Alomomola actually takes on the special fires AND Emboar better when running a SpD set with Waterfall than Jellicent does (seriously Waterfall on SpD Mola is really cool rn x_x). Jellicent is nice because it can be painful for stall to work around given it has a relatively quick taunt, wisp, and hex, as well as reliable recovery and a scald immunity, but you can also just toss a little bit of speed in mola and toxic it before it taunts you, or switch to Roselia and spam giga drain or even fish for poison w/ sludge bomb, then spam giga drain. I just don't think the meta is nearly as kind to jelli now as it was when Cobalion and Reuniclus roamed the tier, and Jellicent was the only Pokemon capable of beating both with one move set. But now its like, sure it has utility, but what am I actually walling? And why am I giving a free switch into Exploud or Houndoom on a balanced team, that seems stupid. So Jellicent A+ --> A- imo.


While I don't disagree with your stance on jellicent it can't even check all that well medicham because 252 Atk Pure Power Medicham Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Jellicent: 153-180 (37.8 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery(after one zen headbutt it's already forced to recover) and this isn't even taking account in how much Life Orb medicham does to it.
 
Glalie dropped most likely because it has no defensive utility meaning it doesn't check anything for the rest of the team which makes it rather hard to fit on offense as offensive teams are built off of resistances and glalie provides none. You know why emboar is so good? Not only is it an offensive powerhouse but it has the ability to check some dangerous offensive stuff like sneasel and houndoom. The point I was trying to make was glalie glalie has no defensive synergy for your team compared to other wallbreakers bar exploud. Also I've stated why durant isn't S is because similarly to glalie it can't switch in on anything like even attacks that aren't all that powerful can dent it as shown in this calc shows how much trouble it has coming in.
252 Atk Flygon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Durant: 124-147 (48.2 - 57.1%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO this probably isn't a great example but scarf flygon doesn't even hit that hard.
Not only does it have trouble switching in on anything it has a pretty bad primary stab in steel making durant quite easy to check as there are a multitude of steel resists on many teams not because durant but mostly to hit bulky steel types in general. Hone claws sets are very deadly and can overpower them but durant sets up on very little making that easier said then done to pull off.



Also I'm gonna bring this nomination back up since it didn't generate any discussion.
On the Jellicent nom, that actually happened this update.
 
i mean durant hasn't been 'proven' as you cant really 'prove' a mons viability, the point of the thread is to find the best estimate of how gud a mon is in a current meta. And god moth to S, it's been a long time af that thing is so fucking good.

Scrafty i'm kinda eh on because there is stuff that checks it but it's still a very solid sweeper that will more likely than not put in work regardless. A+ seems fair.

Flygon is one of those super duper consistent mons that does nothing amazing, but in RU i feel it has great versatility and defog and shit. Honestly it isnt this super dominant force that you'd associate w/ S though so A+ seems good to me.

Also, Mega Glalie in A+ seems more than fine to me tbh; a lot of mons on a standard team will outspeed and wreck it, and it'll like get a few (albeit destructive af) hits in or maybe spike; idk i just dont find it that incredible.

I don't really care about Melo's placement; while is REALLY REALLY FUCKING GOOD there is stuff that trips it over like dark types megalix etc, although it can bop those too so meh. Kinda sucks to be pursuit trappable by like weasel/drap but it's still really fucking good. Either rank does it fair justice imo.
 
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