Super Smash Bros 4 (Spoilers ITT)

aVocado

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They said this about Diddy Kong about 6 different times. "All of the things propping this character up got deleted, characters dead"

And he kept coming back into the top spots, every time.

For small nudges to catapult characters up or down tiers, you need an extremely well balanced game to begin with. Smash 4's balance isn't tight enough to drop Sheik out of top 5 if Fair was tweaked so you couldn't chain them, especially since with how changes happen in this game, since it'd probly get like a ~2% damage boost for its framedata and knockback being screwed with so badly.
Diddy's good tools aren't his frame data though. His good tools are banana, fair, good mobility, and amazing neutral (thanks to banana). Sheik's good tools are her frame data, fair, needles, and recovery I guess? They're completely different in that regard.

Out of those her frame data is most important. Nerf that, and Sheik's not that quick ninja that can combo you to oblivion anymore, which is the entire point. Most people I've seen discuss Sheik agreed that her frame data should remain untouched.
 
Hasn't Sheik's Fair frame data already been tweaked? Didn't seem to hurt her much before. Making Fair chains impossible might be going overboard, but making the execution window tighter and making her primary combo starters(ftilt/fair) less safe on whiff/shield doesn't sound like a bad idea.

Not seeing how Sheik's neutral game is that bad. Her approaches are weak, sure, but it takes an exceptional camping game(mega man, pit? don't think villy or dog can manage) to force Sheik on the offensive and her defensive options are great thanks to her frame safe moves and pivot tilting.



eta: How does everyone think the sword characters (FE, Shulk, MK, Mii) are balanced? I've heard speculation that the shield nerfs would help characters with disjoints but not much proof. I'd really like to make Shulk work but have this issue with taking the neutral until I can take the time to activate an art + position myself on stage well which lasts only as long as the art does, if I can avoid getting hit :/. I wonder if going artless until you can land a good hit is the best approach.
 
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aVocado

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Hasn't Sheik's Fair frame data already been tweaked? Didn't seem to hurt her much before. Making Fair chains impossible might be going overboard, but making the execution window tighter and making her primary combo starters(ftilt/fair) less safe on whiff/shield doesn't sound like a bad idea.

Not seeing how Sheik's neutral game is that bad. Her approaches are weak, sure, but it takes an exceptional camping game(mega man, pit? don't think villy or dog can manage) to force Sheik on the offensive and her defensive options are great thanks to her frame safe moves and pivot tilting.
Fair had its damage nerfed before and KBG/BKB (one of them or both, idk) and then it got nerfed against in the patch before last and it dealt 0.5% less damage and slightly more KBG to account for the decreased damage. Frame data is untouched.

Sheik's neutral isn't even close to bad. She has one of the best approaching tools in the game and the best projectile, idk what made you think I was implying that.
 

UltiMario

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Assuming they don't just stop patching this game, Sheik's framedata isn't going to go untouched as long as she's dominating the scene, so we'll have to wait and see if you're right when they tweak it.

I'm going to hedge my bets on Sheik will be fine even after she takes some more nerfs though. After Greninja they seem to have learned to not gut characters in patches, so she'll probly still linger around in top 10 even after they throw some more serious nerfs her way.

Or maybe they'll just buff everyone else instead. Who knows.
 

aVocado

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If she's gonna get nerfed they'd have done it by now. There has been what, 3 patches with Sheik getting untouched? Before that she got nerfed every single patch. It's safe to assume she'll go untouched.
 

Josh

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Does anyone here feel like helping someone getting into competitive sm4sh btw? I want to main rob and secondary falcon, so if you could help with either of those hit me up. I play on Wii U. I nominate Arikado
 

UltiMario

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If she's gonna get nerfed they'd have done it by now. There has been what, 3 patches with Sheik getting untouched? Before that she got nerfed every single patch. It's safe to assume she'll go untouched.
Do you really think that lmao

This games probly gunna be supported for another like 2 years. There is literally no character that'll go unchanged for 2 years in a constantly patched game, let alone one that's at the literal center of attention. Just because she went virtually unchanged for 3 patches doesn't mean she'll dodge changes for like 40 patches in a row. Tons of games have characters go patch after patch after patch untouched, even when they have major issues, and suddenly they'll get a big overhaul all at once. 3 patches not being touched means jack shit.

I wouldn't extend that unchanging grace period for Sheik any farther out than about the next DLC character release, which if hints/leaks are true, shouldn't be too far out at this point. Even if they totally reverse their balancing stance and buff every character through the ceiling to balance the lower end of the cast, Sheik is gunna see changes to make her fit in with the new power level.

We're gunna have a few more months of #1 Sheik before something happens, unless Ninty has been holding back till the last second to push the next DLC character, in which she only has a few more weeks.
 
To be honest, as Shulk main, i REALLY liked the new shieldstun. I now don't have to fear getting shield grabbed every time i try to approach with nair.
 
Does anybody else here really enjoy playing as Zelda? Hell, I may be the only person I know who plays as her. She's my secondary at the moment (I main Zero Suit Samus) and I absolutely love it! Her nair is surprisingly efficient, and Farore's Wind is absolutely insane. Correctly titled "the elevator," Farore's Wind kills starting at 60% on nearly all characters. The only issue timing, which can be a little bit annoying. How I mainly find myself using it is using Naryu's Love a little bit away from the opponent, alluding to being vulnerable. Then, when they come closer, launch off Farore's Wind. Not always guaranteed, as it relies on predictions, but it's still a semi-safe technique I've found. Besides that, Zelda's fair and bair are devastating, and her dair has a nice spike that's not that hard to hit. One thing I've learned from my gameplay with Zelda is a technique labelled "Din's Fire Slide" which is using Din's Fire to safely "slide" back on stage, as using Din's Fire in the air propels Zelda forward. However, it sends her into free fall afterwards, so you have to be cautious. Finally, Zelda's Phantom Slash is an underrated tool that really helps versus Sheik in particular. Blocks needles, making defensive Sheiks a bit easier of a matchup, and halts Sheik's approaches. Also, it's really powerful (31% fully charged). So yeah, what do you guys think of Zelda? Her attacks are all very powerful, but also very very slow, and her overall weight and speed are nothing to write home about. Despite this, I believe she's a fun character to pick up!
 

aVocado

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People take Zelda for granted because everyone says "lol Zelda is trash." Tbh she is on the bad characters' side of the game but she's still insanely powerful and you have to be super cautious around her cuz her punish game is insane between up b oos, lightning kicks, or usmash/fsmash.

Finally, Zelda's Phantom Slash is an underrated tool that really helps versus Sheik in particular. Blocks needles, making defensive Sheiks a bit easier of a matchup, and halts Sheik's approaches.
Every time a Zelda uses down b against Sheik it's a free bouncing fish punish, so it's not that good against sheik.
 
I feel like nobody in this game is trash trash. Sure some characters are more trash than others, and samus really needs to get fixed but besides that there is a reason to use all other characters. It's really brilliant actually. But samus is no where near as bad comparatively speaking vs. Melee kirby or brawl ganondorf.
 
I feel like nobody in this game is trash trash. Sure some characters are more trash than others, and samus really needs to get fixed but besides that there is a reason to use all other characters. It's really brilliant actually. But samus is no where near as bad comparatively speaking vs. Melee kirby or brawl ganondorf.
I mean, we can all agree that the trash trash character in Smash 4 is the Mii Gunner. Like, it lacks almost everything.
 

verbatim

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Sheik stuff
Sheik stuff

IDK, part of Sheik's core design is that she's supposed to have an amazing capacity to put people off balance and capitalize off of it. The thing that gets me isn't her neutral so much as the fact that she doesn't have any bad matchups, idc if she's #1 at the end of the day but it'd be nice if she lost at least one clear matchup.

Dire, an old melee player that's commentating and playing smash 4 now sums up my opinion pretty well. There's nothing wrong with her having amazing onstage tools, but she shouldn't be #1 onstage and #2 offstage, varying minor nerfs to vanish or bouncing fish that hurt her ability to recover but don't diminish her edgeguarding or killing options would be something I'd be in favor of. I.E, making the intangibility on vanish come out a few frames closer to when she actually disappears, slightly lowering the height you teleport while leaving the damage and original move distance intact (so she can still do the 50/50), 2-3 frames later faf on aerial bouncing fish, etc.
 

aVocado

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I saw Dire's video, and honestly, why nerf Sheik's recovery when everyone else also has an amazing recovery? ZSS can never be gimped unless you read her double jump, down B, AND the length of her tether. You don't have to just read one of these to gimp her, you more often than not have to read all 3 and punish. Fox's sweetspotted side b is difficult to intercept for most characters, Ryu has an invincible Shoryuken to make it back to the ledge and his side b refreshes every time you hit him, MK can make it back however times you hit him, Yoshi literally has armour on his double jump and eggs to make him 'glide', Villager's balloons act as a shield to him from any attack, Sonic's up b is very hard to hit if he decides to recover low and has spinshot to recover high, etc. It's not just Sheik that has an amazing recovery, it's just that challenging her up B usually gets you punished hard because of the invulnerability frames, and that leads people to believe her recovery is broken when everyone else has almost as good of a recovery, with some characters unfortunately having bad ones in a game where the majority can make it to the ledge almost every time.

That being said I guess adding more vulnerability frames for vanish's startup would make most sense.
 
Are Samus/Mii Gunner honestly candidates for worst when Swordfighter and Ganon are around? :s Ganon might have decent unweighted matchups but against the dominant combo-centric characters he is horrendous... Samus and Gunner at least have great camping and spacing tools for the neutral.
 
Samus does have a great camping game, but the thing is that she can do stuff out of it. Heck, tether can be used as a spacing aerial tool and it also has a D-Throw into fair combo. Does gunner have any of those? Like, gunner is a worse samus, with pretty laggy aerials and smash attacks that are rip offs from some other characters (check up-smash). Why would i use Gunner when Samus is around?
 
Samus does have a great camping game, but the thing is that she can do stuff out of it. Heck, tether can be used as a spacing aerial tool and it also has a D-Throw into fair combo. Does gunner have any of those? Like, gunner is a worse samus, with pretty laggy aerials and smash attacks that are rip offs from some other characters (check up-smash). Why would i use Gunner when Samus is around?
While that's true, I doubt you answered their question - They wanted to know if Samus / Mii Gunner are really placed correctly in the tier list (at the bottom) when compared to ganon and swordfighter.

If I'm wrong, my bad.
 
Ganondorf has an awful matchup versus combo characters like Sheik herself, but Ganon can actually pull that matchup out based on a strong punish-and-predict game (which is the base of Ganondorfs). Swordfighter, on the other hand.......................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................ehhhhhh, well, there's a point there.
 

aVocado

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Ganon has a 23% nair* that doesn't have much lag, a command grab that can lead to tech chases, down b edge cancels, and a really fucking amazing ftilt. You can afford to make mistakes in front of Samus, you can't afford to make mistakes in front of Ganon. Not to mention his Usmash is ridiculously good.

Samus has a good neutral with zair and missiles, but that barely makes up for all the other terrible tools she has. Most of her moves are literally broken, as in non-functional, and her good tools are often not good enough for most matchups anyway.

*23% is a 4 move combo with Sheik, more if you count fair strings
 
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verbatim

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I play Ganon competitively. The Sheik matchup is bad and any tournament capable Sheik should be able to win on timeout if they commit. That being said, they can lose the match if they make 3 mistakes and Ganon capitalizes on them, which is a lot less mistakes than other low tiers need. Also customs make the matchup so much closer that I actually go Ganon vs Sheik. Wizkick is amazing and Dark Fists is a super armor kill move that works OoS.

TL;DR, Ganon's at the top of low tier, not the bottom.

Fun fact of the day: Ganon's usmash ends before Fox and Pikachu's do.
 

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