k I edited my post for that, also tier 2's current description has "So named because they're not worse than the ones in Tier 2." which should be in the new 2'
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Lower Tiers Doubles OU Viability Rankings
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Those definitions are basically the same thing to be honest.
One should really be "Pokemon which have broad applications on a variety of teams but are simply less effective than the Pokemon in the higher tiers. Overall, not better or worse than [2 or 2']."
One should really be "Pokemon which have broad applications on a variety of teams but are simply less effective than the Pokemon in the higher tiers. Overall, not better or worse than [2 or 2']."
why wouldn't mew be two tbh :T
though i agree with what check is saying aside from cress to 3, thundurus-i to ur (but he prolly meant thundy-t), and virizion to ur :I. 1. ebelt cress is actually pretty legit for beating heatran on tr 2. thundy-i is not thundy-t and 3. I for one welcome our virizion overlords. also pretty much the only good grass type that has a decent matchup against mkanga and heatran.
hoopa-u is really overrated because it breaks protect but it moves last on tw/tr sorts of teams anyway because it's either the slowest mon or the fastest.
i also overhyped the shit out of how stupid breaking protect was gonna be but it's not even that useful with hoopa-u.
though i agree with what check is saying aside from cress to 3, thundurus-i to ur (but he prolly meant thundy-t), and virizion to ur :I. 1. ebelt cress is actually pretty legit for beating heatran on tr 2. thundy-i is not thundy-t and 3. I for one welcome our virizion overlords. also pretty much the only good grass type that has a decent matchup against mkanga and heatran.
hoopa-u is really overrated because it breaks protect but it moves last on tw/tr sorts of teams anyway because it's either the slowest mon or the fastest.
i also overhyped the shit out of how stupid breaking protect was gonna be but it's not even that useful with hoopa-u.
mew wouldn't be two because bunnies isn't an archetype. seeing as how no one uses it...
virizion was on one team. And iirc that team didn't win. Just because it has a niche doesn't alleviate its badness.
virizion was on one team. And iirc that team didn't win. Just because it has a niche doesn't alleviate its badness.
i meant it as a joke because mew two but apparently it was misunderstood. i do agree that it should be 2' tbh
Also Virizion stands an actual chance against MKanga and Heatran unlike other grasses (though Venusaur can just Sleep Powder both under sun it can't at all switch into either, especially not Heatran in Sun; one could argue that Virizion can't either but Heatran can't KO Virizion on switchin unless prior damage has struck it). I do somewhat agree that if a mon was successful on a team once it shouldn't be listed as a viable mon but it is actually used on more than just one team (I have 2 with it iirc) and the niche is worth noting since two of the most common mons in the meta game happen to be MKanga and Heatran. Plus a strange thing is that of all the grasses on the vr I can think of rn Virizion is the only one that resists EQ and Rock Slide in one mon, with the more viable grasses minus Ferrothorn and Mega Abomasnow (aboma is weak to rock slide anyway) resisting neither of them.
my own noms:
Mega Scizor to Tier 3. It has a lot of crazy matchups but like that shit's sick against a lot of non-CHALK level stuff and has some really unique coverage. I've also been enjoying running Feint Mega Scizor as a great way to break Protect for things like Azumarill and Wide Guard for things likeAbomasnow Landorus-T, and its bulk is like next level good. Also Rotom-W with Will-o-wisp/Sitrus Berry have died down in usage quite a bit in tours.
That said it suffers from the poorest Sun matchup ever, only being able to really hit Scarf Cube with BP for a mere 50% or so (maybe more idk) and non Fire Blast Hydreigon/Latios, and faces off against THALK terribly, but usually the last mon on THALK teams has a bad matchup against Mega Scizor at least :]
Amoonguss to Tier 1.5. It is a great mon for the meta but that Sun matchup is horrible oml, both of the dragons sun teams run right now (Latios and Cube) ruin Amoonguss while Charizard+Venusaur annihilates the poor mushroom. This makes it fit into the 1.5 description imo.
Also Virizion stands an actual chance against MKanga and Heatran unlike other grasses (though Venusaur can just Sleep Powder both under sun it can't at all switch into either, especially not Heatran in Sun; one could argue that Virizion can't either but Heatran can't KO Virizion on switchin unless prior damage has struck it). I do somewhat agree that if a mon was successful on a team once it shouldn't be listed as a viable mon but it is actually used on more than just one team (I have 2 with it iirc) and the niche is worth noting since two of the most common mons in the meta game happen to be MKanga and Heatran. Plus a strange thing is that of all the grasses on the vr I can think of rn Virizion is the only one that resists EQ and Rock Slide in one mon, with the more viable grasses minus Ferrothorn and Mega Abomasnow (aboma is weak to rock slide anyway) resisting neither of them.
my own noms:
Mega Scizor to Tier 3. It has a lot of crazy matchups but like that shit's sick against a lot of non-CHALK level stuff and has some really unique coverage. I've also been enjoying running Feint Mega Scizor as a great way to break Protect for things like Azumarill and Wide Guard for things like
That said it suffers from the poorest Sun matchup ever, only being able to really hit Scarf Cube with BP for a mere 50% or so (maybe more idk) and non Fire Blast Hydreigon/Latios, and faces off against THALK terribly, but usually the last mon on THALK teams has a bad matchup against Mega Scizor at least :]
Amoonguss to Tier 1.5. It is a great mon for the meta but that Sun matchup is horrible oml, both of the dragons sun teams run right now (Latios and Cube) ruin Amoonguss while Charizard+Venusaur annihilates the poor mushroom. This makes it fit into the 1.5 description imo.
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ok can we not use "X is weak to Y, and Y is common in the meta. So X must be undeserving of the tier its in"
If you have reasons for something not being in the tier it's in please dont use the argument presented above because: 1. most of the time it's going to be common knowledge and 2. Its been put into that tier with that argument in mind, if it's going down a tier it's not because of that argument.
Example:
Instead of having a shitty opinion and using bad argumentation, user checkmater75 mantains a shitty opinion but uses good argumentation. Rather than going "Cress loses to Bisharp and Hydreigon and both have been rising in usage, so it's shit." he provides good argumentation for Cress being shit. Congratulations check for making proper use of argumentats whilst mantaining a shit opinion.
(check in kidding i dont actually think you have a shit opinion, i just wanted to meme and please our Weeb Lord, we all know his identity.)
If you have reasons for something not being in the tier it's in please dont use the argument presented above because: 1. most of the time it's going to be common knowledge and 2. Its been put into that tier with that argument in mind, if it's going down a tier it's not because of that argument.
Example:
Instead of having a shitty opinion and using bad argumentation, user checkmater75 mantains a shitty opinion but uses good argumentation. Rather than going "Cress loses to Bisharp and Hydreigon and both have been rising in usage, so it's shit." he provides good argumentation for Cress being shit. Congratulations check for making proper use of argumentats whilst mantaining a shit opinion.
(check in kidding i dont actually think you have a shit opinion, i just wanted to meme and please our Weeb Lord, we all know his identity.)
Roxer if you're talking about Derivatives' nomination of Amoonguss to Tier 1.5 then I direct you to the descriptions, where Tier 1.5 says "Pokemon that are generally strong, but can be deadweight in some matchups, don't have great matchups vs a lot of Tier 1...". If Derivatives is claiming that Amoonguss is deadweight vs sun teams, and bad against certain omnipresent threats like all the dragons and Talon, then this is a perfectly logical nomination and doesn't deserve a whole post shaming him about it. Whether you agree with his point is up to you, but I see nothing wrong with the word choice/justification.
ok 1. im not shaming him or anyone at all, only check but then again that was for the memes and i dont mean any of it and 2. the post wasnt directed at him, it was a general post directed at anyone that might want to.
I really dont want to see people saying "Heatran should go down because Lando-T is common, and Heatran loses to Lando-T" because that is outright stupid and it has happened before.
Adding to that, using the descriptions is perfectly fine way of nomming things, as it is the criteria we are using for noms.
tbh it was just really shitty timing and wording on my part that made it sound like i was shaming guest, mb there.
New Viability Rankings Council works fast.
Votes this time are shown in the order qsns, KyleCole, Stratos, Totem, kamikaze
Mega Manectric 3-> UR
Manaphy UR -> 3
Cresselia 2'->3
Aegislash 1->1.5
Hoopa-U 1.5->2'
Talonflame 1.5->1
Weavile 2->3
Rotom-Heat 2->3
Mew 2'->3
Latios 1.5 -> 1
Gengar Mega 2'-> 2
Genesect 3->UR
Thundurus-T 3->UR
Virizion 3->UR
Victini 3->UR
Final Changes:
Mega Manectric moves from Tier 3 to UR
Manaphy moves from UR to Tier 3
Hoopa-U moves from Tier 1.5 to 2'
Talonflame moves from Tier 1.5 to 1
Weavile moves from Tier 2 to 3
Mew moves from Tier 2' to 3
Gengar Mega moves from Tier 2' to 2
Thundurus-T moves from Tier 3 to UR
Also PSA: Please bold/underline your nominations on this thread so I dont miss them
Votes this time are shown in the order qsns, KyleCole, Stratos, Totem, kamikaze
Mega Manectric 3-> UR
pwne and i tried to build a team with it and it was BAD lol. UR this pls
yes it's pretty bad. I've tried to hold onto hope for Mega Man for awhile now but it just is not viable. Just use Landorus for Intimidate and Thundurus for fast electric. It's not like you can't fit both on a team.
Definitely, as qsns said we tried so hard but its aids. i've built like 4 teams w/ this mon and they all sucked. just use thundurus, there's honestly very little between 111 and 135 and none of it is ohkoed by manectric anyway
ill defend this since no one will, you can make this work on rain fuckbois
Yes. Once was one of my favorite megas at the beginning of XY, but sorry Mega Mane you gotta go :(
yes it's pretty bad. I've tried to hold onto hope for Mega Man for awhile now but it just is not viable. Just use Landorus for Intimidate and Thundurus for fast electric. It's not like you can't fit both on a team.
Definitely, as qsns said we tried so hard but its aids. i've built like 4 teams w/ this mon and they all sucked. just use thundurus, there's honestly very little between 111 and 135 and none of it is ohkoed by manectric anyway
ill defend this since no one will, you can make this work on rain fuckbois
Yes. Once was one of my favorite megas at the beginning of XY, but sorry Mega Mane you gotta go :(
Manaphy UR -> 3
i mean its worked on more than one team which is cool. very very powerful under the right conditions (not too hard to get) so i guess i can get behind this
Yeah Arctic did good things with this mon and I'd like to see more people give it a try. It probably won't be me, but someone.
Yes. xzern and Arcticblast have showed that Manaphy can be good with redirection support.
i dont like it at all, i think its p bad and even at +3 idt it does a great deal of work
Yes. Enough has been said above about how this pokemon has risen as a threat. Manaphy + Amoonguss has shown its worth on multiple occasions by Arcticblast.
Yeah Arctic did good things with this mon and I'd like to see more people give it a try. It probably won't be me, but someone.
Yes. xzern and Arcticblast have showed that Manaphy can be good with redirection support.
i dont like it at all, i think its p bad and even at +3 idt it does a great deal of work
Yes. Enough has been said above about how this pokemon has risen as a threat. Manaphy + Amoonguss has shown its worth on multiple occasions by Arcticblast.
Cresselia 2'->3
lol no, way too far of a drop
No, still a strong Poke even if its not at its former glory. Being a bulky TR setter that effectively can't e OHKOd is a really good trait to have
No. Shrop really fucked me up with offensive cress a little while ago vs like 3 of my teams so im a believer. also cress is like the only mon that can set TR (more or less) without support.
cress is the only mon i would use to consistently set tr twice
No. Lets not get Hasty here. It was a Bold decision to nom this all the way down to 3. Totem basically summed it. This is one of the few pokemon that is able to set TR twice and manage it pretty often compared to other setters, similar to how suicune is a pokemon that can often set up tailwind twice. That alone sets it apart from most of the other TR setters.
No, still a strong Poke even if its not at its former glory. Being a bulky TR setter that effectively can't e OHKOd is a really good trait to have
No. Shrop really fucked me up with offensive cress a little while ago vs like 3 of my teams so im a believer. also cress is like the only mon that can set TR (more or less) without support.
cress is the only mon i would use to consistently set tr twice
No. Lets not get Hasty here. It was a Bold decision to nom this all the way down to 3. Totem basically summed it. This is one of the few pokemon that is able to set TR twice and manage it pretty often compared to other setters, similar to how suicune is a pokemon that can often set up tailwind twice. That alone sets it apart from most of the other TR setters.
Aegislash 1->1.5
abstain. while its still got an incredible defensive typing no one can deny it's gotten worse. rlly on the fence about this one.
verrrrry tough. I'm gonna give a tentative yes, at the end of the day it comes down to Aegislash really needing all of sub/wg/flash cannon/shadow ball/ kings shield to be really outstanding and you just can't have that. Still a very strong mon, maybe the best 1.5 but I'm gonna have to knock it down : (
No. Aegislash just isn't what it used to be; we found out that its not actually as good at dealing with Kang/Diancie as we'd like and that Metagross is actually not good anyways. Mons that hit aegis neutrally like Keldeo and Thundurus are quite popular and good checks. The only place I find Aegislash consistently being very threatening is next to Diancie. On the other hand, the WP set is still guaranteed to do something basically every match, and my sun team often uses it to trade in its favor with various Pokemon. I'm really torn on this one, but overall I'm going to say keep it in 1 for now. It just shouldn't be used with Mega Kangaskhan, on which teams it performs the worst.
consistently does at least one thing a game, good for def synergy so no
Nah this stays 1. This is a pokemon that affects the flow of the game and generally has an impact in every match its in besides against some things like zard, because of its ability to be able to tank almost any hit and respond back with heavy damage. It generally forces a double target and many times depending on the scenario, a double target may not even be enough to make it fall.
verrrrry tough. I'm gonna give a tentative yes, at the end of the day it comes down to Aegislash really needing all of sub/wg/flash cannon/shadow ball/ kings shield to be really outstanding and you just can't have that. Still a very strong mon, maybe the best 1.5 but I'm gonna have to knock it down : (
No. Aegislash just isn't what it used to be; we found out that its not actually as good at dealing with Kang/Diancie as we'd like and that Metagross is actually not good anyways. Mons that hit aegis neutrally like Keldeo and Thundurus are quite popular and good checks. The only place I find Aegislash consistently being very threatening is next to Diancie. On the other hand, the WP set is still guaranteed to do something basically every match, and my sun team often uses it to trade in its favor with various Pokemon. I'm really torn on this one, but overall I'm going to say keep it in 1 for now. It just shouldn't be used with Mega Kangaskhan, on which teams it performs the worst.
consistently does at least one thing a game, good for def synergy so no
Nah this stays 1. This is a pokemon that affects the flow of the game and generally has an impact in every match its in besides against some things like zard, because of its ability to be able to tank almost any hit and respond back with heavy damage. It generally forces a double target and many times depending on the scenario, a double target may not even be enough to make it fall.
Hoopa-U 1.5->2'
im gonna give an unsure yes. if it gets in at the right time it .justwins but no resists and weak ass physical defense coupled with a low speed kinda blows.
yes. Just straight up not as good as the 1.5s
Yes. I've only seen it succeed on teams with very heavy speed control. Devastating in the right circumstances though. Locks the opponent down and removes a large portion of their counterplay (Protect) so often their only option is "just lose."
it's kinda bad right
yea 2'. I have said this many times recently but there is probably a single digit number of people taking advantage of this monster, myself included. But it just requires so much team support to properly function unfortunately and is not as ever present as we initially expected. I still think its a solid pokemon and extremely scary threat to be on the opposite side of.
yes. Just straight up not as good as the 1.5s
Yes. I've only seen it succeed on teams with very heavy speed control. Devastating in the right circumstances though. Locks the opponent down and removes a large portion of their counterplay (Protect) so often their only option is "just lose."
it's kinda bad right
yea 2'. I have said this many times recently but there is probably a single digit number of people taking advantage of this monster, myself included. But it just requires so much team support to properly function unfortunately and is not as ever present as we initially expected. I still think its a solid pokemon and extremely scary threat to be on the opposite side of.
Talonflame 1.5->1
yes, i think it's definitely one of the best mons in the tier. strong priority is sooo good in a meta like this. steel wing talon best talon ^_^
Absolutely. As frail and short lived as it may be, Talonflame has no dead weight match ups and is pretty much guaranteed to get at least 1KO a game unless you sack it for tailwind turn 1. Definitely one of the best mons in the tier.
Yes, this is definitely a thing which needs to happen. Talon is so good rn. I voted yes on this last time so I'm not gonna elaborate.
its a legendary so i guess it fits in rank 1
I am fine with 1. I was adamant about keeping it 1.5 before but it honestly really is useful in almost every matchup and a great cleaner.
Absolutely. As frail and short lived as it may be, Talonflame has no dead weight match ups and is pretty much guaranteed to get at least 1KO a game unless you sack it for tailwind turn 1. Definitely one of the best mons in the tier.
Yes, this is definitely a thing which needs to happen. Talon is so good rn. I voted yes on this last time so I'm not gonna elaborate.
its a legendary so i guess it fits in rank 1
I am fine with 1. I was adamant about keeping it 1.5 before but it honestly really is useful in almost every matchup and a great cleaner.
Weavile 2->3
yea this things not good. tried it but every time i do im just like "you know what would be better in this slot? like anything else" lol
Nah, its close but Weavile is actually pretty good
Yes, weavile needs to be like 30% stronger before I'll vote to keep it in 2. Adaptability when gamefreak?
i cant even build w/ this anymore, just doesn't feel effective
Abstain
Nah, its close but Weavile is actually pretty good
Yes, weavile needs to be like 30% stronger before I'll vote to keep it in 2. Adaptability when gamefreak?
i cant even build w/ this anymore, just doesn't feel effective
Abstain
Rotom-Heat 2->3
lol no
yeh, barely a sun check and there are like 5 better fires. I suppose it checks Talonflame especially well but its not the only fire that can.
Abstain. I'm consistently underwhelmed by Rotom-Heat. It's never bulky enough for when I want it to take hits. On the other hand, it's on a bunch of teams. Maybe other people see something in Rotom-H that I don't. In theory, it's good.
no keep in two juicy af resists
Nah this stays 2. It may not be the best sun check compared to stuff like heatran but one of the things that sets it apart from other pokemon is that it does offer one of the best hard stops to Thundurus-I in the metagame. With thundurus-i increased in popularity, I dont see this dropping anytime soon. Also this pokemon has seen a lot of great success on a few Mega Metagross teams. See replays of mine and arcticblast's from Open and Seasonals.
yeh, barely a sun check and there are like 5 better fires. I suppose it checks Talonflame especially well but its not the only fire that can.
Abstain. I'm consistently underwhelmed by Rotom-Heat. It's never bulky enough for when I want it to take hits. On the other hand, it's on a bunch of teams. Maybe other people see something in Rotom-H that I don't. In theory, it's good.
no keep in two juicy af resists
Nah this stays 2. It may not be the best sun check compared to stuff like heatran but one of the things that sets it apart from other pokemon is that it does offer one of the best hard stops to Thundurus-I in the metagame. With thundurus-i increased in popularity, I dont see this dropping anytime soon. Also this pokemon has seen a lot of great success on a few Mega Metagross teams. See replays of mine and arcticblast's from Open and Seasonals.
Mew 2'->3
abstain
yes, has almost no unique utility beyond transform which hasn't been usable at a top level for like like a year
Yes, transform is its one gimmick and only TGMD has harnessed it effectively.
*transforms into naruto and uses ninja techniques to kill you all...*
heh....
Abstain
yes, has almost no unique utility beyond transform which hasn't been usable at a top level for like like a year
Yes, transform is its one gimmick and only TGMD has harnessed it effectively.
*transforms into naruto and uses ninja techniques to kill you all...*
heh....
Abstain
Latios 1.5 -> 1
kang matchup is bad, cant do much vs steels. good in some matchups but not universally good to the point of tier 1
no. Super good mon atm but has a couple of really terrible match ups that hold it back.
No. Struggles too much with steels and kang (and even somewhat diancie) to be tier 1, even if it is really good. on the other hand i'm glad we got off the fucking tier 2 latios train we were on.
???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? its not rly that good lol
keep 1.5. Its basically been summarized above. I think if anything its solified its status as Tier 1.5, when previously people were nomming it for a drop. But it really can still struggle in some matchups.
no. Super good mon atm but has a couple of really terrible match ups that hold it back.
No. Struggles too much with steels and kang (and even somewhat diancie) to be tier 1, even if it is really good. on the other hand i'm glad we got off the fucking tier 2 latios train we were on.
???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? its not rly that good lol
keep 1.5. Its basically been summarized above. I think if anything its solified its status as Tier 1.5, when previously people were nomming it for a drop. But it really can still struggle in some matchups.
Gengar Mega 2'-> 2
you put this on a specific sort of team but kyle brought up that you use it to support, its not the thing you build the team around. i like that description more so i guess i agree
sure. I most often use Mega Gengar to support another member of the team as opposed to the other way around, but Mega Gengar could fit in either category.
No. idk i still feel like gengar only works on teams that want trap support badly (like no shit) but that's more of a 2' thing to me. this is just a semantic change anyways so who cares.
i dont remember the dif between the two tiers who even cares like lol
Abstain.
sure. I most often use Mega Gengar to support another member of the team as opposed to the other way around, but Mega Gengar could fit in either category.
No. idk i still feel like gengar only works on teams that want trap support badly (like no shit) but that's more of a 2' thing to me. this is just a semantic change anyways so who cares.
i dont remember the dif between the two tiers who even cares like lol
Abstain.
Genesect 3->UR
lol no
Meh, its OK. Gonna say no because I've seen it used really well by others even if I don't use it much.
Abstain, TOTEM fucked me up with this but then again he fucked me up with a bunch of bad shit.
gene is p good, you're prob just using it wrong lellers
Abstain.
Meh, its OK. Gonna say no because I've seen it used really well by others even if I don't use it much.
Abstain, TOTEM fucked me up with this but then again he fucked me up with a bunch of bad shit.
gene is p good, you're prob just using it wrong lellers
Abstain.
Thundurus-T 3->UR
i literally havent seen this used ever lellers
yes. Trash.
Yes. It's ok, but when's the last time it was a relevant threat?
i've never even wanted to use this so i guess it can go UR
Used this a little several months ago. Not too amazing. So yea good for drop to UR.
yes. Trash.
Yes. It's ok, but when's the last time it was a relevant threat?
i've never even wanted to use this so i guess it can go UR
Used this a little several months ago. Not too amazing. So yea good for drop to UR.
Virizion 3->UR
stop it check this thing is decent
Are you out of your mind Virizion is outstanding.
No.
VIRIZION IS GOOD AF ATM i'd rather see it go up to 2 rofl
I was the one who nommed this to 3 initially, and I still stand by what I said back then. Especially with Skymin gone, virizion is one of the few offensive grass types in this tier and being able to KO heatran, kangaskhan, charizard(stone edge set), and threathen rain in one package is pretty respectable. The main reason its not higher is because of its low offensive damage output which gets neutered even more by Intimidate, but it still deserves to be ranked as it is a threatens many things when its not intimidated.
Are you out of your mind Virizion is outstanding.
No.
VIRIZION IS GOOD AF ATM i'd rather see it go up to 2 rofl
I was the one who nommed this to 3 initially, and I still stand by what I said back then. Especially with Skymin gone, virizion is one of the few offensive grass types in this tier and being able to KO heatran, kangaskhan, charizard(stone edge set), and threathen rain in one package is pretty respectable. The main reason its not higher is because of its low offensive damage output which gets neutered even more by Intimidate, but it still deserves to be ranked as it is a threatens many things when its not intimidated.
Victini 3->UR
i like victini :( no
Abstain
Yeah, i don't think locking yourself into fire is very good in this meta and tr victini is just no
abstain
Base 100 Final Gambit Kamikaze is pretty nice. Its been pretty successful on a few sun teams as well with VCreate in the sun absolutely demolishing things. Stay 3.
Abstain
Yeah, i don't think locking yourself into fire is very good in this meta and tr victini is just no
abstain
Base 100 Final Gambit Kamikaze is pretty nice. Its been pretty successful on a few sun teams as well with VCreate in the sun absolutely demolishing things. Stay 3.
Final Changes:
Mega Manectric moves from Tier 3 to UR
Manaphy moves from UR to Tier 3
Hoopa-U moves from Tier 1.5 to 2'
Talonflame moves from Tier 1.5 to 1
Weavile moves from Tier 2 to 3
Mew moves from Tier 2' to 3
Gengar Mega moves from Tier 2' to 2
Thundurus-T moves from Tier 3 to UR
Also PSA: Please bold/underline your nominations on this thread so I dont miss them
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Jellicent tier 3 -> 2 (I'd say 1.5 but I know you wont jump it that high)
does not require support given its bulk and great typing. can function as a tr setter or outside or trick room as will-o-wisper - like gengar but bulklier and with a better ability.
clafairy tier 3 -> ur
how did this make it to tier 3 to begin with? no one uses it in todays game, its totally non-viable
does not require support given its bulk and great typing. can function as a tr setter or outside or trick room as will-o-wisper - like gengar but bulklier and with a better ability.
clafairy tier 3 -> ur
how did this make it to tier 3 to begin with? no one uses it in todays game, its totally non-viable
i wouldnt say that clefairy is unviable per say, it dosent fit on most teams sure, but it does have a nice niche in redirecting and does have friend guard, which the other fairy redirecting support mons dont have, easing damage on spread moves (diamond storm, eq, heat wave, rock slide) which the other two fairy redirectors cant do. ive used it on a couple teams now; its support has been great but when the only attacking move is icy wind, it does find itself short against taunt. that being said, it has a defensive niche and i feel like it is justified in tier 3.
Stratos
Banned deucer.
togekiss -> 3
unless the only thing ur redirecting is earth powers, this mon is just not a good choice. best set is probably roost atm, just to set it apart from other redirectors, but best set is still not widely usable. just doesnt have relevant resists. also, only four uses in fall seasonal.
unless the only thing ur redirecting is earth powers, this mon is just not a good choice. best set is probably roost atm, just to set it apart from other redirectors, but best set is still not widely usable. just doesnt have relevant resists. also, only four uses in fall seasonal.
Kingdra Tier 3 -> Tier 2'
Kingdra being ranked below Ludicolo, the other common rain sweeper, is pretty inaccurate as the two serve different but equally viable roles on rain. While Ludi fares better against balance teams with its nearly unresisted coverage, Kingdra acts as one of the best late-game cleaners in the tier with its blazing speed and extremely powerful spread. Its Muddy Waters, providing they hit, clean up the remainder of a weakened opponent with ease. Its secondary STAB in Dragon, while generally worse than Ludicolo's, allows it to nuke common rain checks such as Hydreigon and Latios. Considering Kingdra had 6 more uses than its rain counterpart and managed to maintain the same W/L ratio, the rankings should be updated to reflect this.
seconding this.
Kingdra Tier 3 -> Tier 2'
Kingdra being ranked below Ludicolo, the other common rain sweeper, is pretty inaccurate as the two serve different but equally viable roles on rain. While Ludi fares better against balance teams with its nearly unresisted coverage, Kingdra acts as one of the best late-game cleaners in the tier with its blazing speed and extremely powerful spread. Its Muddy Waters, providing they hit, clean up the remainder of a weakened opponent with ease. Its secondary STAB in Dragon, while generally worse than Ludicolo's, allows it to nuke common rain checks such as Hydreigon and Latios. Considering Kingdra had 6 more uses than its rain counterpart and managed to maintain the same W/L ratio, the rankings should be updated to reflect this.
Also Helping Hand suppport from Poli makes me feel Poli is not completely useless when it is alongside this rain sweeper.
Its so easy to get the two in together and then just blast something into oblivion with Helping Hand Muddy Water which picks up near OHKO's as well as 2hko's on a good portion of the metagame which resist it even, making switch-ins unsafe.
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Voting finished in 2 hours miraculously.
Votes are in the order KyleCole, kamikaze, Totem, Stratos, qsns
Mega Scizor UR -> 3
Amoonguss 1 -> 1.5
Jellicent 3 -> 2
Clefairy 3 -> UR
Kingdra 3 -> 2'
Final Changes:
Kingdra moves from Tier 3 to 2'
Votes are in the order KyleCole, kamikaze, Totem, Stratos, qsns
Mega Scizor UR -> 3
What? no? Let's try and keep theorymonning to a minimum
No. Like Kyle said we dont want to theorymon pokemon from unranked to ranked without actual backing from actual battle performance. Link replays (preferably from tournament battles).
No, I made a solid team with this but its still not rly very good
thought this mon was in 20. anyways i can support it moving to UR probably but not 3, there's still just better options for steels.
i tried this thing last week and it was bad as always. this just seems like a theorymon thing it rlly is just bad
No. Like Kyle said we dont want to theorymon pokemon from unranked to ranked without actual backing from actual battle performance. Link replays (preferably from tournament battles).
No, I made a solid team with this but its still not rly very good
thought this mon was in 20. anyways i can support it moving to UR probably but not 3, there's still just better options for steels.
i tried this thing last week and it was bad as always. this just seems like a theorymon thing it rlly is just bad
Amoonguss 1 -> 1.5
Nah, it's still best grass even if it's super prepared for.
No. This pokemon may not have the best matchups vs sun or the two common dragons Kyurem-B and Latios like mentioned in the nom post, but it really has an amazing matchup vs a majority of the metagame (Esp the other Tier 1 pokemon). The post kind of focused on its bad matchups while completely ignoring its good ones. Even in some sun matchups Amoonguss still may have the ability to come in on a good matchup (aka not Zard) and pull off a spore which could mean all the difference. And as kyle said, it still is the best grass type and even though its prepared for, it generally still has an impact every match. Also I have noticed a lot of Thundurus dropping Taunt as they go more offensive which actually makes Amoonguss more reliable vs Thundurus (unless you get Twaved and never move)
idk where this one came from tbh amoonguss is as good as it always has been
uh.... destroys lando+kang, keld, beats wp wg aegi, beats diancie, spore, bulky redirector.....how high was the person who nominated this for a drop
no. what the others said. beats kanga, keld, diancie, landorus-t and spores still irritating af.
No. This pokemon may not have the best matchups vs sun or the two common dragons Kyurem-B and Latios like mentioned in the nom post, but it really has an amazing matchup vs a majority of the metagame (Esp the other Tier 1 pokemon). The post kind of focused on its bad matchups while completely ignoring its good ones. Even in some sun matchups Amoonguss still may have the ability to come in on a good matchup (aka not Zard) and pull off a spore which could mean all the difference. And as kyle said, it still is the best grass type and even though its prepared for, it generally still has an impact every match. Also I have noticed a lot of Thundurus dropping Taunt as they go more offensive which actually makes Amoonguss more reliable vs Thundurus (unless you get Twaved and never move)
idk where this one came from tbh amoonguss is as good as it always has been
uh.... destroys lando+kang, keld, beats wp wg aegi, beats diancie, spore, bulky redirector.....how high was the person who nominated this for a drop
no. what the others said. beats kanga, keld, diancie, landorus-t and spores still irritating af.
Jellicent 3 -> 2
No, just not good enough. Decent TR setter ofc but nothing more.
I still stand by what I said Last nomination as not much as changed: "No. I have used this outside of Fullroom on Semiroom before and having Will-o-Wisp is great so I think of all the setters nommed up from Tier 3, this one is the closest but not quite there until it sees a lot more successful usage outside of just Fullroom."
abstain
no. too much of a do-nothing mon to really be a threat most of the time
abstain
I still stand by what I said Last nomination as not much as changed: "No. I have used this outside of Fullroom on Semiroom before and having Will-o-Wisp is great so I think of all the setters nommed up from Tier 3, this one is the closest but not quite there until it sees a lot more successful usage outside of just Fullroom."
abstain
no. too much of a do-nothing mon to really be a threat most of the time
abstain
Clefairy 3 -> UR
Abstain
Abstain. (I will however say that if we are dropping this it would be weird to not have this ranked while Clefable is still ranked, unless someone wants to nom that down as well. Clefairy is bulkier while Clefable actually can exert some offensive presence as opposing to Clefairy which exerts nothing)
no i think clefairy is viable
no. lulzy and decent mon, fm/heal pulse/icy wind/helping hand all legit, and of course friend guard. better than clefable.
nah clefairy's viable. has its niche as a bulky ass redirector and this thing next to kanga is scary.
Abstain. (I will however say that if we are dropping this it would be weird to not have this ranked while Clefable is still ranked, unless someone wants to nom that down as well. Clefairy is bulkier while Clefable actually can exert some offensive presence as opposing to Clefairy which exerts nothing)
no i think clefairy is viable
no. lulzy and decent mon, fm/heal pulse/icy wind/helping hand all legit, and of course friend guard. better than clefable.
nah clefairy's viable. has its niche as a bulky ass redirector and this thing next to kanga is scary.
Kingdra 3 -> 2'
Yes, the original nomination summed it up perfectly
Yes. Kingdra rain became good when we stopped using Calm Mind HP Electric Keldeos ;)
yeah, why was this in 3 lol
i spent so long trying to find all the old bloo kingdra rain images and i fucking can't this is a tragedy... yes move it up
i made this nom and got 11 likes so it must be right!!!!!!!!!
Yes. Kingdra rain became good when we stopped using Calm Mind HP Electric Keldeos ;)
yeah, why was this in 3 lol
i spent so long trying to find all the old bloo kingdra rain images and i fucking can't this is a tragedy... yes move it up
i made this nom and got 11 likes so it must be right!!!!!!!!!
Final Changes:
Kingdra moves from Tier 3 to 2'
mega venu -> 2'
seems to me that when you build this thing, if ever, you have to build around it, not something that's good stuffs but something that's like "If I make the right team maybe this can be good"
Therefore it requires support to be good?
Also I could easily see this thing dropping to 3 imo, not particularly impressed with any megavenu teams as of late, if there even are any. but I guess tier 2 isn't a very high barrier of viability so I can also see it staying 2
Mega Aero, Char X -> UR
I loved Kylecole's team, but that felt more like a specific ct than anything else. All in all, these two have not been showing up on any teams as of late. Mega Aero was sick as fuck but people voted to ban skymin so it's kinda bad now.
Also whatthe fuck is the justification for keeping Cresselia tier 2 when Jellicent and Reuniclus are both tier 3? Switch places imo. Jellicent and Reuniclus are 10x better in theory and in practice.
Also could we have a 2'' tier that is "provides specific support"? I can see multiple mons that would fit into this, such as togekiss, both gengars, gyarados, mew, gothitelle, scrafty, and Raichu. We have "requires support" and "is good but not good enough" but no "provides x support that 2' needs"
seems to me that when you build this thing, if ever, you have to build around it, not something that's good stuffs but something that's like "If I make the right team maybe this can be good"
Therefore it requires support to be good?
Also I could easily see this thing dropping to 3 imo, not particularly impressed with any megavenu teams as of late, if there even are any. but I guess tier 2 isn't a very high barrier of viability so I can also see it staying 2
Mega Aero, Char X -> UR
I loved Kylecole's team, but that felt more like a specific ct than anything else. All in all, these two have not been showing up on any teams as of late. Mega Aero was sick as fuck but people voted to ban skymin so it's kinda bad now.
Also what
Also could we have a 2'' tier that is "provides specific support"? I can see multiple mons that would fit into this, such as togekiss, both gengars, gyarados, mew, gothitelle, scrafty, and Raichu. We have "requires support" and "is good but not good enough" but no "provides x support that 2' needs"
Aero is so anti-HO and ho is kinda dead soooo
Stratos
Banned deucer.
?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? are we playing the same meta
Sableye 3 -> UR
Everything this pokemon does something else does better, and I can't even remember the last time I saw someone use a Sableye and win a game. There are plenty of better Wisp users, fake out users, swagger users, etc. This pokemon's only niche is Quash, and you might as well nickname your Sableye "Quashimodo" bc it's a humpback piece of shit that people like for some reason. It's also not bulky at all and it puts that great typing to shame. Lastly, Mega Diancie is everywhere and it makes Sableye legitimately useless.
Everything this pokemon does something else does better, and I can't even remember the last time I saw someone use a Sableye and win a game. There are plenty of better Wisp users, fake out users, swagger users, etc. This pokemon's only niche is Quash, and you might as well nickname your Sableye "Quashimodo" bc it's a humpback piece of shit that people like for some reason. It's also not bulky at all and it puts that great typing to shame. Lastly, Mega Diancie is everywhere and it makes Sableye legitimately useless.
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Stratos
Banned deucer.
tgmd vs qsns game 2 :^)
also since my last post was pretty dumb: classing aero as "anti-HO" without actually looking at what it does is retarded. it threatens common offensive staples talonflame, keldeo, and diancie (which are a lot more than just "HO") with ohkoes and even ohkoes or 2hkoes a lot of other relevant threats (landorus-t (which it outspeeds), amoonguss, heatran, zard, thund (though obviously doesnt want to eat para)). it's also got the fastest jew slide in the game, which makes it great at bringing pressure late game. before someone brings up deoxys-s, go fuck yourself. sure it's hopeless against steels, kinda difficult to bring in (though doable, unlike manectric), and not too good vs defense in the early game, but it definitely deserves to be tier 3.
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