np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 5 - Run The Jewels

[Anacleto]

In the case of Sablenite, uncompetitive is what people won't bother to prepare for even if preparing for it is perfectly possible and reasonable

The same people who keep saying it makes the meta unhealthy when its one of the only three things who can switch into a freaking Medicham, the other two being Slowbro (and Slowking maybe?) and Mew (edit: oh and reuniclus)

I swear to god there's a Medicham on 1/3 of the teams on the suspect ladder

 

[Sir Azelf]

I've said a lot about Shadow Tag in the past, so I won't elaborate too much except to say that depriving the opponent of the ability to switch is disgusting and removes the ability for the opponent facing Shadow Tag to make plays. I don't see how the metagame would hurt without Gothitelle (and to a lesser extent Wobbuffet) and thus I support a Shadow Tag ban.

I don't agree that Mega Sableye is broken at all. It's clearly not broken because of its bulk, so people have claimed that it takes away the ability to reliably set up entry hazards. Sure, Mega Sableye can indefinitely block certain SR and Spikes setters, but it's far from a universal "catch-all." There are plenty of viable OU Pokemon that will send Sableye away running and screaming unless it wants to risk getting viciously attacked.

Let's take a look at the Pokemon that Mega Sableye is never, ever keeping hazards off against:

- SR Clefable (lol)
- SD Lum Garchomp (Lando-T can do this too)
- Toxic Mold Breaker Excadrill (gets SR and keeps them up vs Mega Sableye while beating some common Defog users)
- LO / Mystic Water Spikes Omastar (no idea why people don't use this when it terrorizes stall and offense alike for rain teams, but if you really hate sableye so much then use this thing ffs)
- Magma Storm Heatran (trap it kill it, set up SR).
- Toxic Spikes Dragalge (if the Sableye user is using Amoonguss, sobeit, otherwise this is another nice weapon against MSab teams)
- SR Mega Diancie (ok this might be pushing it, but it still wins)

None of these Pokemon are particularly splashable, but ALL of them are viable / good. You can fit one of them onto your team. If you're using a passive as fuck SR setter like Ferrothorn or Hippowdon, that's too bad. Guess what? They're passive as fuck! If Hippowdon and Ferro were more threatening offensively they'd either be on every other OU team or banished to Ubers outright. When using a hazard setter, pick your poison: do you want to use a passive mon that provides defensive synergy at the expense of setting up its hazard, or do you want an offensive hazard setter that can reliably set its hazard up while pressuring the opponent's team at the expense of defensive synergy? You don't get the best of both worlds, and offensive Heatran / Mold Breaker Excadrill do both fairly well anyway.

Spikes Diggersby is also an excellent choice for offense and something ive used if you want hazard stacking offense and sable really doesnt like coming in on that since it takes 50% from UNBOOSTED no item eq, it also has Fire Punch to pressure Skarm Defogging. Its like Mamoswine except sets up Spikes. Speaking of Mamoswine, Sableye isnt really stopping rocks from that either because it takes heavy heavy damage from its moves, especially LO swine which 2HKO'S it and strips about 40% from Skarm with Icicle Crash. Neither of these pokemon are useless either, infact Mamoswine is ridiculously underrated with the amount of utility and revenge killing ability it has.

Also i think you bringing up passive mons like Skarm, Hippow and Ferro is an interesting point. The reason i see "it makes these pokemon useless simply by being present etc" as a bad argument in regards to hazards is literally Xatu shits on every single one of them aforementioned passive mons too which makes that point pretty questionable lol.. :\

 

[Norne]

Spikes Diggersby is also an excellent choice for offense and something ive used if you want hazard stacking offense and sable really doesnt like coming in on that since it takes 50% from UNBOOSTED no item eq, it also has Fire Punch to pressure Skarm Defogging. Its like Mamoswine except sets up Spikes. Speaking of Mamoswine, Sableye isnt really stopping rocks from that either because it takes heavy heavy damage from its moves, especially LO swine which 2HKO'S it and strips about 40% from Skarm with Icicle Crash. Neither of these pokemon are useless either, infact Mamoswine is ridiculously underrated with the amount of utility and revenge killing ability it has.

Also i think you bringing up passive mons like Skarm, Hippow and Ferro is an interesting point. The reason i see "it makes these pokemon useless simply by being present etc" as a bad argument in regards to hazards is literally Xatu shits on every single one of them aforementioned passive mons too which makes that point pretty questionable lol.. :\

Thanks for pointing up mamoswine, my favorite offensive SR user, few Pokémon have its traits and ability to pressure defensive switch ins, sadly he is pushed up by Scizor/slowbro and prone to be revenged rather easily yet in my experience as long as he gets an attack off his job is mostly done anyways, well as long as you delay rocks and not intend to use mamoswine as a suicide SR lead(Seriously don't use him in that way) but more as a back up SR user he does put a lot of pressure on semistall and balance. Haven't really experimented on freeze dry mamoswine so I can't elaborate on him.

Sadly the new toy syndrome on megamedicham being used with hazard stacking and prevalecence of fast volturn teams right now don't let mamoswine catch a break.

Back on the suspect we can't assume sableye isn't as centralizing as other S ranked mons, people are really blowing him out of proportion, if your team has a severe issue with sableye it isn't due to it being broken but due to lack of team building elasticity, I mean seriously pretending you don't have to fight for hazard control is quite Naive, heck I could crack a joke about how not being prepared for sableye if your team requires you to do some chip damage to important targets as an offensive user would be the same as having no Keldeo answer on stall or balance.

 

[bludz]

I've seen a lot of arguments trying to peg Mega Sableye as uncompetitive, including the thread in Policy Review. All of these arguments have seemed overly contrived and failed to convince me in the slightest, so I'll tackle why I think Mega Sableye is not uncompetitive.

II.) Uncompetitive - elements that reduce the effect of player choice / interaction on the end result to an extreme degree, such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant
A.) This can be match up related; think the determination that BP took the battling skill aspect out of the player's hands and made it overwhelmingly a team match up issue, where even with the best moves made each time by a standard team often were not enough.
B.) This can be external factors; think endless battle clause, where the determining factor becomes internet connection over playing skill.
C.) This can be probability management issues; think OHKOs, SwagPlay, Evasion, or Moody, all of which turn the battle from emphasizing battling skill to emphasizing the result of the RNG more often than not.
D.) Note uncompetitive elements are almost always present in the battling skill aspect; they will, however, be present in the team building aspect should we allow them in the sense of having to rely on excessively specific counters (such as loading teams with Sturdy or Keen Eye Pokemon and the like).

By these criteria, Mega Sableye clearly does not fall under B or C. The only argument is A combined with D; matchup issues presented to the point that team building necessitates excessively specific counters.

If you notice the caveat in A is even where the best moves made each time by a standard team often were not enough. While this may hold true for the Mega Sableye + Gothitelle stall build, I've found that this rarely if ever held true of other Mega Sableye builds. Standard teams carrying powerful wallbreakers are still capable of blasting through most of the time if played 100% properly. In terms of excessively specific counters, there is some truth to being limited in SR setters that can beat Mega Sableye. However Lum + SD mons aren't excessively specific as it allows Garchomp for example to set up a SD on a pokemon such as Rotom-Wash as well, it isn't exclusive to Sableye (unlike Float Stone Slowbro was in the case of Grass Knot Mega Metagross). Even Tank Chomp can be irritating for Sableye to come in on (not on t1, but later in the match) if you click Dragon Tail a few times and then EQ, it won't be able to come in safely. Similar case with Landorus-T U-turning out into a Clefable every time. This isn't to say it is easy to get up rocks but excessive counters such as Stealth Rock Mega Diancie didn't exactly become popular, some standard setters could still do it if you set yourself up properly.

In short, Mega Sableye is not uncompetitive, that's a silly argument to make.

It does increase the team matchup issues in ORAS more than most pokemon and is very centralizing. This would mean we can either consider it broken or unhealthy, and I believe if you want Sableye to go these are the arguments you should be making. I'm still undecided myself but I just think the "Mega Sableye is uncompetitive" argument is a waste of time and isn't going to go anywhere. I really recommend arguing it's broken or unhealthy if you want it to go. That is all.

 

[Outrageous Fortune]

Got reqs, time to post

Poking holes in a flawed argument doesn't make your point of view right, I just want to point that out (to no one in particular).

I have to say I've actually really enjoyed laddering suspect. There's quite a lot of variety for a suspect ladder (which is usually just rain and stall). Birdspam and medisharp making a comeback was interesting to see, and it was cool to see the things people were trying with stall. I had good matchups and bad matchups, but no unwinnable ones which was really nice - and this is the problem I have with MSab. I can't understand people who want to keep it around, it simply allows dumb matchup based games (just look at OLT). Anyone claiming goth is the problem clearly hasn't laddered suspect - the goth stall I've seen has been nowhere near as stale and matchup based as MSab teams.

TL;DR The problem with MSab is mainly the matchup issues it causes, lets please get that shit out of here.

 

[ThePack]

Having also obtained reqs a little while ago, I guess the time has come to outline my thoughts.
The Suspect Ladder previewed a meta with Sableye only banned, and bar the million geniuses running some variant of stall on ladder, some interesting trends were noticed. Primarily, from laddering on multiple alts, I found that there was a good amount of variety without M-Sableye, as some others have mentioned. Balance breakers such as Mega Medicham, Mega Alakazam, Mega Scizor, Mega Pinsir, and Mega Metagross were commonplace on ladder, and considering that a significant portion of people on ladder had TankChomp as their check-all Pokemon, this was no surprise.

Onto the argument on whether Sablenite should be banned.
First of all, I should preface by saying that I had no personal preference between the Suspect Ladder meta and the regular meta. As many others (including bludz, who made an excellent post in this thread), Sableye is not uncompetitive, and to save time, I will not reiterate the points that were already made well. Hence, the question that presents itself relates to whether M-Sableye is unhealthy/broken. This is where things begin to get slightly sketchy, as it is difficult to present an objective view on this issue, so I will try to isolate the components that make a Pokemon broken or unhealthy, using the OU Tiering Policy as a reference point, without trying to influence anyone else's opinions.

Upon examination of the text, the main attribute of a broken Pokemon is its ability to "Limit Teambuilding Skill". Does M-Sableye fulfill this criteria? Personally, I do not think this is the case, as this attribute usually necessitates the use of uncommon Pokemon whose implementation would put the rest of the team at a disadvantage in checking other threats. With its checks including common Pokemon such as Heatran, Manaphy, Clefable, Talonflame and Keldeo, to name a few, I do not think this is the case.

Hence, the second argument, is Sableye unhealthy? This is much more subjective than the previous criterion, as each user would have their own definition of what unhealthy means; the policy itself defines unhealthy as, "elements that are neither uncompetitive nor broken, yet deemed undesirable for the metagame such that they inhibit "skillful play" to a large extent". Is Mega Sableye unhealthy? As previously mentioned, this is subjective; you may agree or disagree with the definition outlined by the policy, so I will leave this up to you to decide for yourself. In my opinion, using the aforementioned definition, I would state that it is not unhealthy, for the reason that it does not inhibit skillful play as far as I could see.


Using the aforementioned criteria, it seems that Shadow Tag could fulfill both criteria, as it can limit teambuilding skill and inhibit skillful play. Examples of this include being forced to run sets such as Shed Shell Manaphy, and in general, doing the Samba in every Pokemon battle against Gothitelle stall to prevent Sableye checks such as Keldeo and Clefable from functioning effectively.

Hence, I believe that since, in my opinion, those criteria are fulfilled, I believe that Shadow Tag should be banned.
As always, I end by stating that this is my view and others have their prerogative to disagree with the said viewpoint.

 

[MANNAT]

I've played pretty extensively on the suspect ladder on several testing alts, and I'm prolly gonna get reqs on my current alt within the coming days barring some nasty tilt or laziness lol, so I'm just going to talk a little bit about the current suspect meta. Before I started playing on the suspect ladder, I thought that Gothitelle was only uncompetitive on teams with sableye, but it creates a disadvantage for the opponent at team preview, even if it is playing vs bare bones HO (which i've been using mainly with some stall and balance thrown in there to see how they perform in the suspect meta). Instead of trapping keldeo, clefable, etc. for sableye, gothitelle can decide to trap ferrothorn, scizor, mega venu, clef again (lol), etc. for mega altaria, who is really good on stall rn. The ability to isolate and kill or cripple such a wide range mons with its expansive offensive and utility movepool is inherently uncompetitive since it takes skill out of the equation largely for the user of it since they basically just have to switch into the opposing mon then click the appropriate move(s) vs them and make way for the team's main sweeper or mega to plow through the opposing team. Multiple checks to all of the top metagame threats are pretty much needed nowadays since gothitelle can kill or cripple pretty much all of them, and that just puts immense pressure on the mon that didn't get trapped to stay healthy or else your team will be blown over by the team's main sweeper. (it can even run hp ice to shit on chomp/landot for lop) This problem won't even be solved if gothitelle is banned because its pre evolution, gothhorita, can do the same exact thing except with slightly lowered base stats. Also, I think that Sableye isn't uncompetitive, but it is unhealthy for the meta as it doesn't promote variety on stall teams at all as there is pretty much no reason to use any other mega on stall unless you specifically build a stall team around said mega, and even then that team will probably be less effective against a wide range of play styles than a standard msab build is. Lastly, the reason why mega sab is so unhealthy for the metagame isn't that it prevents hazards from going up, it is the fact that it doesn't promote diversity in stealth rock setters at all since it shuts down every single common stealth rock setter bar lum sd chomp, which was revitalized solely because of sableye, rocks clef which is also because of sab, and heatran, which loses to cm sab sets anyways lol.

All in all, Mega Sableye should be banned because of its unhealthy influence on the metagame and the fact that it discourages diversity in the metagame while stag should be banned for the sheer uncompetitiveness of the Gothitelle line.

 

[D_what]

Also, I think that Sableye isn't uncompetitive, but it is unhealthy for the meta as it doesn't promote variety on stall teams at all as there is pretty much no reason to use any other mega on stall unless you specifically build a stall team around said mega, and even then that team will probably be less effective against a wide range of play styles than a standard msab build is.

I have a question about this because I've seen a similar line of thought threading through some decent arguments and I don't know how to think about it. None or few of the other Megas we've had really provide dedicated support for Stall teams, outside incidental benefits like those that MCharX provides. Or MegaBro's stellar defense I guess. That's fine, not gonna complain about that because it'd be stupid to do so. But, if ^that was a major reason for MSableye getting the hammer (which may or may not be fair? I have to think about this very hard before I take a position): would it get retested if there were other similarly usable Stall megas, as the usage would be split more evenly? (sorry if this is a dumb question since it's predicated on so much rn.)

Yeah I think that's probably why I have any issues at allwith this viewpoint, because it kind of implicitly rides on usage. You still can totally build a Bro/CharX/Altaria Stall team, and win, even against MSab builds, but MSableye is more reliable most of the time and dominates most forms of stall. But I guess I'm not entirely convinced it's because MSableye is so incredibly wonderfully fantastically great on stall (yeah I know it's an S rank), but rather that it just has no real competition for the role right now (which the other S ranks or playstyle leading Megas do). The vast majority of good Megas are almost entirely offensive or at least tanky, alas.

IDK I'm not really making a case or anything right now, I just think this part of the pro-ban argument is interesting and worth thinking aloud about.

 

[Sir Azelf]

I dont understand how "doesn't promote variety on stall teams" is a good argument either. When i make a team, i use my mega to cover the weaks my team has or build around it said mega. Basically I dont use sable simply because it doesnt cover the gaping holes on my team or my team isnt built to support sable, that is essentially the reason its not used i.e the same reason as all pokemon arent used specifically on a given team, for example "im not using Bisharp on this team because it doesnt cover weaks, contribute anything or cover anything relevant i dont already cover jee i should be using something else". Lastly if there is no variety on stall as you claim which is essentially implying "all sable teams are the same" wouldn't that in theory make those sorts teams even easier to break without Goth? I could also say alot of pokemon dont encourage diversity ("every offensive team is Keld, Lati@s, Lando-T, Rotom-w, Mega, filler"), doesnt really make it relevant.

Additionally "it is the fact that it doesn't promote diversity in stealth rock setters at all since it shuts down every single common stealth rock setter bar lum sd chomp, which was revitalized solely because of sableye, rocks clef which is also because of sab, and heatran, which loses to cm sab sets anyways" this isnt true ether, infact it does the exact opposite with hazard setters in that it encourages diversity (or should do but people are refusing to adapt to something that doesnt actually need adapting to ?_? lol), Sweep and myself came up with several more "diverse" hazard options in this post that Sable doesnt want any business coming in on. Again if people stopped being generic and using easy to stop passive shit to set up rocks with on offense, maybe this wouldn't be the case? Just saying. Xatu also stops basically every single passive rocks setter too, including non sd chomp. Once again rocks are not a god given right, why should they always be up with a mindless click and do ridiculous amounts of passive damage each game without actually thinking? I think having to actually think for something as centralizing and mindless as "hazards and offensive pressure" is balanced, sorry. This is further amplified be the state of the non sable suspect ladder which is indeed a HO, hazard centered, stall insulting, circle jerk for the most part. :\ Also Heatran doesnt lose to CM Sable, it gets crippled with a burn or 2hko'd by any other non defensive set lol. Also rocks clef wasnt thing because of sable it was a thing because every common defogger and spinner is shit on by it and rocks chomp has been a thing since before sable even exisited, you honestly cannot tell me these pokemon are the direct result of and only useful because of sable, thats clearly false.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Additionally "it is the fact that it doesn't promote diversity in stealth rock setters at all since it shuts down every single common stealth rock setter bar lum sd chomp, which was revitalized solely because of sableye, rocks clef which is also because of sab, and heatran, which loses to cm sab sets anyways" this isnt true ether, infact it does the exact opposite with hazard setters in that it encourages diversity (or should do but people are refusing to adapt to something that doesnt actually need adapting to ?_? lol), Sweep and myself came up with several more "diverse" hazard options in this post that Sable doesnt want any business coming in on. Again if people stopped being generic and using easy to stop passive shit to set up rocks with on offense, maybe this wouldn't be the case? Just saying. Xatu also stops basically every single passive rocks setter too, including non sd chomp. Once again rocks are not a god given right, why should they always be up with a mindless click and do ridiculous amounts of passive damage each game without actually thinking? I think having to actually think for something as centralizing and mindless as "hazards and offensive pressure" is balanced, sorry. This is further amplified be the state of the non sable suspect ladder which is indeed a HO, hazard centered, stall insulting, circle jerk for the most part. :\ Also Heatran doesnt lose to CM Sable, it gets crippled with a burn or 2hko'd by any other non defensive set lol.

I'm really not sure how I feel about Mega Sableye, even now. I'm not going to lie, I'm not too fond of its banning, but I can see reasons that are more so technical than anything. Still leaning VERY slightly more towards voting no ban, but will likely just Abstain unless something REALLY convinces me otherwise.

With that said, there are a few holes in your logic here. Firstly, there really aren't all that many Offensive Stealth Rockers. There are a select few, that is undeniable, but for the most part the Stealth Rockers of OU are simply extremely Passive Pokemon. There's a reason people resort to Garchomp as their Offensive rocker. I mean, you can make empty suggestions all you want, but it's the truth. That's not something you should be trying to use to aid your argument. Second, you're right, having Hazards up is not a "God Given right", however, I'm willing to bet the people here are not wanting to boot mSab because they can't get their hazards up and nothing more. mSab is a decently centralizing force, there is no denying this. It's not centralizing like Ninja was, or Aegislash, but it's a centralizing force nonetheless. The fact that EVERY team has a Stealth Rocker and from turn one can potentially be 100% dead weight or even more so a liability (as that is typically their entire reason for being on the team) can be problematic. It makes the game essentially 5-6 from turn 1 unless they play their rocker to the absolute best of their ability. Now, see, the problem I have with this is, there are plenty of Pokemon that cause this in ORAS OU, it's such a stupidly huge metagame it's borderline impossible to prevent. Which is what causes me to lean towards voting no ban. Though, what pulls me more towards Abstaining is the fact that no other Pokemon does this. Stall absolutely blew up when mSab was released, and there is a VERY clear reason. It is the glue Stall has been asking for for years. Magic Bounce on a fat ass Pokemon is a Godsend, then you take its typing into consideration and the fact it has Prankster the turn before it Mega Evolves and you realize why it is as great as it is. It's a great Stall 'mon, I'd go as far as saying the best. It forces players into the corner more often than I'd like to admit. It does a lot of what STag does to the opponents mindset in the sense that it forces them to play in a much more defensive manner, something that the likes of mSab and any Shadow Tagger tend to come out on top of. These aren't easy Pokemon to discuss. They aren't clear cut broken Pokemon. This suspect is VERY much a question of whether it has a healthy presence. Ask yourself, is forcing the opponent into a corner healthy? Is forcing them to play much more defensively healthy? Is having the ability to be at a very clear advantage from turn one healty? If the answer is yes, then so be it, vote no ban. If you can't answer it with 100% certainty, abstain. And if the answer is no, vote Ban. Not every Pokemon has to be Mega Salamence, Greninja, or Mega Mawile. Some Pokemon really fuck with what makes the game competitive. These two are most certainly the two that do that right now.

 

[Inflikted]

I see a lot of hate towards hazards itt and i really don't understand where it is coming from. If you really think hazards are so broken, centralizing, unhealthy, uncompetitive, cheap or whatever you want to call them, then ask for a suspect for them. Complaining about how insane hazard stacking would be without Mega Sableye in the tier won't help your anti-ban cause because it's just another basic broken-checking-broken argument that is thrown everywhere in every suspect test and makes threads like this so damn painful to read. I've even read complaints about Medicham haha, that was perfectly manageable back when Mega Sableye wasn't released yet, so thanks, I had a good laugh.

I also disagree with the "you have to work to get rocks up" argument: you already need to think in order to gain the free turn that's needed to set them up, you have to decide between using SR and firing off an attack that turn, you need to know if your SR user can afford to risk to take a hit while using SR, and you have to pressure the opponent's hazard remover to keep them up. The hazard war takes skill, rewards good decisions (which isn't always "click SR") and adds a layer of depth to the game we play.

Sableye does a ton of things, but directly nerfing hazards is not really one of them. It's not like a Sableye team won't run Stealth Rock and potentially Spikes. In a match, Sableye won't remove the hazards from the equation, it will just give its user a potentially big advantage in the hazards game. Just take a look to the spikes-stacking Mega Sableye teams that dice / honus / tele made this year, back when goth stall wasn't as relevant as it is now.These teams, even without gothitelle, tend to have a lot of clear cut matchups, as the replays brodean posted showcase well, and that's kind of a big deal.

You need to pack one of the Stealth Rock users that don't give it a free switch. If you don't have one of those, the battle will be very uphill unless you have a pokemon or a core that can break the Sableye team without hazard support. The combination of these two constraints is quite relevant, especially if you're not using offense. Take a look to the SR users that have the best matchup against Sableye (EP / SD Lando-T, SD Chomp, Mold Breaker Excadrill, Offensive Heatran, Clefable): the first two of them don't fit well on balance at all, and Clef does not have an easy time fitting SR in its moveset because it means giving up one of CM / Twave / Flamethrower, that can allow it to be a much bigger threat overall. Lando T, SD Chomp and MB Excadrill also have a terrible matchup against Skarmory (unless it's Smack Down Landorus), and Sableye pairs very well with it.
So Balance is hurt by Sableye's presence, as it needs to give up pokemon with access to SR and amazing defensive utility such as Hippowdon for others that make role compression really challenging. Non-Sableye stall isn't in a good spot either because it will have passive SR users, and usually does not have the offensive presence that is needed to break Sableye, while our beloved Mega can spread status and knock off items in the free turns it gains. And it tends to gain a lot of them.

In my opinion, the influence of sableye is part of the reason the pre-suspect ladder was mainly filled with Sableye stall and heavy offense, with little middle ground. I only say "part" because balance is also struggling with popular stuff like Hoopa and Manaphy, but I can definitely see Sableye's restricting effect as a factor here, because it forces the use of at least a whole teamslot on its own, contributing significantly to the matchup issue.

And finally, the accusation of laziness or "refusing to adapt" seems forced to me. What seems lazy to me is being allowed to run a pokemon that shuts down half the previously viable Stealth Rock users, forces the others to change their movesets, and makes previously viable stallbreakers using taunt almost obsolete with its presence. And these stallbreakers were the ones that could also fit well on stall itself to help against opposing fat teams.
And we all always try to adapt to it because we want to win as many games as possible, we've been trying for months, and we found out it's very, very difficult if you don't opt for a specific team archetype. I know this also applies to other prominent pokemon that are particularly effective against specific playstyles, but I don't think any other pokemon forces the same degree of preparation.

TLDR my personal opinion is that Sableye crosses the line of being unhealthy, and that's why i'll vote for it to be banned.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

It's not like Mega Sableyes sets have different counters, the things that check cm usually check utility as well. Florges, Clefable, Manaphy, Band Marill are all checks/counters regardless of its sets, it's not unpredictable in that sense that you have to use two different slots to handle it, like Tank chomp vs Mixed Mega chomp who require different mons to check different sets.

 

[bsu]

Xatu also stops basically every single passive rocks setter too, including non sd chomp. Once again rocks are not a god given right, why should they always be up with a mindless click and do ridiculous amounts of passive damage each game without actually thinking? I think having to actually think for something as centralizing and mindless as "hazards and offensive pressure" is balanced, sorry. This is further amplified be the state of the non sable suspect ladder which is indeed a HO, hazard centered, stall insulting, circle jerk for the most part. :\ Also Heatran doesnt lose to CM Sable, it gets crippled with a burn or 2hko'd by any other non defensive set lol. Also rocks clef wasnt thing because of sable it was a thing because every common defogger and spinner is shit on by it and rocks chomp has been a thing since before sable even exisited, you honestly cannot tell me these pokemon are the direct result of and only useful because of sable, thats clearly false.

well for one xatu's defensive stats are complete ass so you cant really compare them other than their magic bounce ability, and if you are to do that you'd have to include espeon and then you see you cant really compare them that well.
basically no u cant just sub xatu in for m-sableye on ur stall team and be like yes victory is mine once again.

ah yes. rocks clef. lemme just eat up that iron head from excadrill, OU's best spinner arguably, and do like 50% back with flamethrower.

also take a shot every time someone says "god given right" omg

 

[Sir Azelf]

well for one xatu's defensive stats are complete ass so you cant really compare them other than their magic bounce ability, and if you are to do that you'd have to include espeon and then you see you cant really compare them that well.
basically no u cant just sub xatu in for m-sableye on ur stall team and be like yes victory is mine once again.

ah yes. rocks clef. lemme just eat up that iron head from excadrill, OU's best spinner arguably, and do like 50% back with flamethrower.

also take a shot every time someone says "god given right" omg

>Missing the forest for the trees argument.

Point is, Xatu still shits on all those passive mons so ultimately its defensive stats are irrelevant when passive rock setters cant touch Xatu or Sableye (which was my actual argument) whilst also struggling with the same shit sable does bar maybe one or two pokemon, amazing how that works isnt it?

Dont see how doing a shit tonne with Flamethrower on predicted switches to OU's best spinner is bad to keep offensive pressure and stop it coming in. However staying in to take an Iron Head is bad (why the fuck did you even say this seriously lol) and as thus so is the basis of your "argument".

also take a shot every time someone says "god given right" omg

Hmmmmmmmmmm i wonder WHY its been said so many times by alot of different people, just saying.

 

[Machi]

Well just going to put my two cents in with the whole MSable, clearly there wouldn't be much to add regarding Goth regardless majority seems to be against it. That said first off, I'm not really under the belief that MSable is uncompetitive at least in the same vein as Goth, which has come up, with regard to its ability to control the hazard game. At the very least it doesn't remove control or leave things to chance regarding the plays in hazards, so I honestly don't think calling in uncompetitive is even necessarily the right term. Also it isn't as mechanical as playing Goth.

That said I think if you're going to discuss MSable you're better of examining it under the lens of its support characteristic. What it does have in common with Goth is that it carries one of the more valuable passive abilities that can and do dictate the flow of the game, obviously you're going to be wary of setting hazards in the face of a bouncer.

Now for me, the thing about MSable that at least makes it suspect worthy, I don't agree with the idea of uncompetitive in the same vein as Goth as being implied, is that as already noted in the thread is that it has huge advantage over many hazard setters. An advantage big enough to limit the pool of viable setters against MSable as it easily neuters most of them -- courtesy of WoW. What I think hasn't been mentioned regarding this matter is that while yes there are still a few reliable setters the problem lies with how MSable is generally able to outlast most them. Thanks to his typing he doesn't have a very exploitable weakness in the sense that you can't exactly lure him out easily and hit him with a surprise effective coverage. Moreover, he has reliable recovery to boot, I'm not sure why lack of leftovers becomes an issue here when many mons would kill for the reliable recovery MSable has. So in the course of the hazard game chances are highly likely that MSable is going to outlast most setters because of the aforementioned few only Clefable has reliable recovery, the rest rely on left overs which are generally knocked off. We limit this further by the fact that some of the few like Exca or Chomp etc can get burned, so I could care less about your mold breaker if I can neuter your Exca with WoW -- since the trade off to crippling said mons is easily worth it (especially since you likely have Skarmory or something in the back to defog).

The problem isn't so much just getting hazards against MSable but that the hazard war is more dynamic since chances are even if you get that hazard onto the opposing team they'll still have the option to remove it, and they usually pair MSable with a defogger. Part of the whole battle is keeping your own hazards on once its there, so I'm not so moved by the so called lure sets people come up here since they're not likely going to outlast. So over the course of this all there is a higher likelihood of MSable outlasting your setter, not only from knock off/foul play damage/WoW but also opposing hazards wearing your own setter down. Remember you're playing against stall so you will have to take a battle of attrition into account, at least good players aren't likely to fold so easily on account of a hazard.

Now I know a lot of people may be a bit skeptic about its ability to last through the course of the game because of its bulk. However, do bear in mind the comparison of bulk to the other options for magic bouncers... MDiancie and MAbsol aren't exactly defensively inclined, one has a myriad of exploitable weaknesses and generally has unfavorable match ups against setters whereas the other is a paper towel. Moving on to Espeon and Xatu the problem lies with their typing being more easily exploitable than MSable, and vulnerable to trapping, making them less likely to last as long. At least compared to other magic bouncers MSable isn't as frail or has a typing that leaves it as easily exploited. In that regard, MSable is a clearly more superior choice when specifically aiming to fit in magic bounce. It isn't an a trade off between typing or recovery, as the case with the others.

This ends up with a simple cost benefit analysis of whether or not the cost of using MSable for magic bounce is proportionate to the cons it carries with regard to the hazard game. Clearly magic bounce is one of the best tools in the kit and having a very good typing and access to recovery is a huge boon that it has over the other bouncers. And this is something I wish was explored better, rather than uncompetitive.

Another thing I find odd about this thread is that people keep mentioning counters... First off, MSable is ranked S or generally at lowest at A rank means that it is not supposed to have very many counters or easily exploited in the first place. So I'm not sure why you'd be trying to find a list of mons when its ranking is supposed to reflect its ability to dominate, otherwise it wouldn't be as viable. So finding answers or playing around it isn't supposed to be very easy as some people have insisted in this thread, "just attack" is easier said than done for most part because if attacking had zero consequences we'd never be in this situation or would necessarily care for stall. Second, "lures" aren't counters, and I'm in agreement with Vertex that I don't think you can "lure" MSable in the conventional sense at least or reliably, nor is the strategy of "just attack" the end all solution to dealing with MSable because attacking doesn't address its support characteristic to repel hazards and proceed to either cripple through status or use remove an item or what have you.

Any event its rather difficult to make a decision regarding the matter because I feel that the MSable got pigeon holed alongside Goth as uncompetitive, in the way it manipulates mechanics, which I just don't agree with. Clearly discussion has been centered strongly upon that.

 

[bsu]

>Missing the forest for the trees argument.

Point is, Xatu still shits on all those passive mons so ultimately its defensive stats are irrelevant when passive rock setters cant touch Xatu or Sableye (which was my actual argument) whilst also struggling with the same shit sable does bar maybe one or two pokemon, amazing how that works isnt it?

Dont see how doing a shit tonne with Flamethrower on predicted switches to OU's best spinner is bad to keep offensive pressure and stop it coming in. However staying in to take an Iron Head is bad (why the fuck did you even say this seriously lol) and as thus so is the basis of your "argument".



Hmmmmmmmmmm i wonder WHY its been said so many times by alot of different people, just saying.

not gonna spam this thread with arguments over nothing but
passive rock setters cant touch Xatu or Sableye (which was my actual argument)
what does this mean exactly? like what are u trying to get to with this argument? that xatu can be subbed for sableye? or that bc some trash mon can do like 1/3 of sableyes job that sableye isn't like that good? idgi

and you cant really use prediction to base an argument since it works both ways? and I'm just saying that SR clef does not shit on all spinners, it just can wall defensive starmie. life orb starmie 2KOs it, and excadrill beats it. Psychic LO Latios also beats it on the ~predicted~ switch. spdef skarm beats it too with iron head?? the only time SR clefable is a true counter is to like mandibuzz lol.

regardless personally i don't think M-sab should be banned, but i felt like some things needed to be cleared up for other people to make their own decisions

 

[Sir Azelf]

not gonna spam this thread with arguments over nothing but
passive rock setters cant touch Xatu or Sableye (which was my actual argument)
what does this mean exactly? like what are u trying to get to with this argument? that xatu can be subbed for sableye? or that bc some trash mon can do like 1/3 of sableyes job that sableye isn't like that good? idgi

and you cant really use prediction to base an argument since it works both ways? and I'm just saying that SR clef does not shit on all spinners, it just can wall defensive starmie. life orb starmie 2KOs it, and excadrill beats it. Psychic LO Latios also beats it on the ~predicted~ switch. spdef skarm beats it too with iron head?? the only time SR clefable is a true counter is to like mandibuzz lol.

regardless personally i don't think M-sab should be banned, but i felt like some things needed to be cleared up for other people to make their own decisions

My point is that Xatu does the exact same thing as sable in regards to making passive mons useless (i.e people were arguing about it making things like skarm, ferro and hippo obsolete as the basis for an argument). I wasn't arguing it can replace sable at all. Im literally just arguing Xatu makes passive mons useless too and Xatu also struggles with (generally) the same hazard setters that sable does (Tran, offensive setters etc).

Again none of those want to come in on Clefable at all, hence why its such a good rocks setter so it can keep them up most of the time simply because it threatens them coming in to remove hazards with a 2hko. Basically no spinner apart from Tentacruel and possible Zapdos wants jack shit to do with Clef or wants to switch into it which backs up the initial argument of rocks Clefable not being useless/situational/just useful for sable like some people were suggesting. On this occasion prediction doesnt work two ways because they literally wont be coming in on Clef and if they do they will be hit with a 2hko.

 

[Let's go shuckles]

My point is that Xatu does the exact same thing as sable in regards to making passive mons useless (i.e people were arguing about it making things like skarm, ferro and hippo obsolete as the basis for an argument). I wasn't arguing it can replace sable at all. Im literally just arguing Xatu makes passive mons useless too and Xatu also struggles with (generally) the same hazard setters that sable does (Tran, offensive setters etc).

Where the hell you're getting the idea that xatu makes passive mons worthless vs it I'll never know. Yes it has magic bounce, however, unlike mega sableye, it does not possess enough bulk to stop most "passive" pokemon from tearing straight through it even without attack investment as most these mons do run one or more attacking move.
0 Atk Hippowdon Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Xatu: 212-250 (63.4 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (141 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Xatu: 192-226 (57.4 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Skarmory does get walled by xatu so I'm not putting in calcs.

 

[Sir Azelf]

Where the hell you're getting the idea that xatu makes passive mons worthless vs it I'll never know. Yes it has magic bounce, however, unlike mega sableye, it does not possess enough bulk to stop most "passive" pokemon from tearing straight through it even without attack investment as most these mons do run one or more attacking move.
0 Atk Hippowdon Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Xatu: 212-250 (63.4 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (141 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Xatu: 192-226 (57.4 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Skarmory does get walled by xatu so I'm not putting in calcs.

For a start it would be using actual def evs (i mean, why wouldnt you?) and not using max speed and Roost which nulls Stone Edge and Gyro. :| I also use Reflect which also coincidentally stops Pursuit but thats probs just me lol.

 

[ABR]

Alright, I've been noticing a ton of people have this fear of spikes running rampant in a metagame that lacks Sableye. I'm going to explain why this fear should not exist, and therefore there are less reasons to want to keep Sableye in the tier.

A lot of people seem to be forgetting the sheer amount of hazard removal options we have in the metagame. Sableye is not the only viable way to keep spikes off the field. We still have Diancie, Starmie, Excadrill, Lati, Skarmory, etc. Some people may say that Diancie "just loses" to Ferrothorn and Skarmory, while Starmie loses to Tyranitar and Ferrothorn, and Lati gets trapped by Tyranitar. You have to realize that even if Ferrothorn and Skarmory threaten Diancie, they can't just spam spikes freely with it on the field. Tyranitar isn't a free switchin to Starmie, as it needs to often avoid burn, and even then, its just a 50 50 with crunch/pursuit, which goes both ways. In addition to this, Starmie can run reflect type to avoid pursuit trapping as well as Ferrothorn countering. Even without reflect type, Ferrothorn fears a scald burn. In the case of Latios, scarf Tyranitar is not on every single team. Even if someone does manage to get up 1 layer or trap the remover, 1 spike isn't going to beat an entire team. In a metagame without Sableye, people cannot just click spikes and win by doing that alone. Some people may also argue that spikes + Tyranitar teams will be too good, but these styles are still overwhelmed by the many balance breakers we have at our disposal. We still have the Gardevoir, Torn-T, Kyu-B, Manaphy, Hoopa and more running around the tier. These passive spikes teams still often lose to the same things they do with Sableye in the tier. Spikes based balance will not be overpowered without Sableye.

The benefits definitely outweigh the costs in regards to banning Sableye. No, it's not about making SR a "right" and not a "privilege." I simply want a healthy metagame. With a ban, we get more metagame diversity, less matchup issues, and more competitive games. Many different team styles can better fight each other with Sableye not restricting the tier. There will no longer have to be individual pokemon winning games vs Sableye teams from turn 1. With Sableye gone, people can make plays and can refrain from using specific strategies like Garde + Hwish to beat these kinds of Sableye teams. I assure you, there will not be an imbalance regarding the power level of spikes balance teams.

If you want to save the metagame while we have the chance, ban Sableye.

 

[Karxrida]

Saying Xatu is just as good as Sableye at shutting down passive mons means nothing, because Xatu's viability is questionable at best. It has shitty bulk, less utility due to its differing movepool (no Knock Off or Will-O, lacks STAB on Foul Play), and more weaknesses due to its typing. Even if Mega Sableye gets booted it's not going to cause problems, as it's way too flawed.

 

[Emblema de Fuego]

I do not usually post, but I completely disagree in a mega Sableye ban. The trick+ shadow tag, is anticompetitive . If only it were possible to ban the combination of Trick + Shadow tag I think would be best. The other would ban only Gotitelle family, but not to ban Wobbuffet.
Mega Sableye does not seem at all anti-competitive, it is very good but is easy to beat with substitutes and other things. And beyond all that, as explained at the start what really cause serious problems is the combination of all the elements.
Removing a Gotitelle would be more than good. There are more users Magic bounce, as has been said and no one asks his ban on lower tiers, and that are controllable.

 

[Aberforth]

With Sableye gone, people can make plays and can refrain from using specific strategies like Garde + Hwish to beat these kinds of Sableye teams.

...Garde HWish is cause of goth. That post had mostly good arguments but can we stop saying stuff that exists cause of goth exists cause of Sableye?

 

[UltiMario]

...Garde HWish is cause of goth. That post had mostly good arguments but can we stop saying stuff that exists cause of goth exists cause of Sableye?

I'd look at it another way.

Wallbreaker/Stallbreaker + Healing Wish generally is one of the go-tos for breaking stall in general. Goth existing doesn't really change this, it just skews it more in the favor of this strategy. Goth or no Goth, this is a strong option against stall.

On the other hand, [Thing that can kill Sableye] + Healing Wish is, well, obviously a Sab effect. And that's what he's more referring to I'm guessing.
An example would be if you just banned Goth, it's not really going to change that much that Sab killer + HWish does well against stall. If you banned just Sab, this would open up tremendously, as 1. You're able to use things that could usually break stall, but not Sableye, as a healing wish target and 2. you've opened up avenues to using Pokemon that aren't extremely crippled by Gothitelle existing (currently anything that does this and doesn't lose to other core stall members loses to Sableye) and aren't forced to use HWish at all (but it's still beneficial to run it if you choose to do so).

 

[teamsnickers]

JS the matchup issue will not get better w/o mega sab..... hazard stacking offense will become the norm and thats one of the most matchup based type of teams we have... So if your reason for banning mega sab is the matchup issue, we have do ALOT more then ban mega sab... because in a meta where klefki would become at least A-A+ rank thats about as matchup based as you can get imo.....