Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V4

[squirtletheturtle]

^ squirtletheturtle that post from Srn sums it up on why the ranking team at the time removed the ranking definitions. I don't know if you've been lurking on the forums or just got a new account but he outlined some simple reasons on why it was an issue in the first place and from a ranking team perspective arguments would ride on this and would be poor in quality. I dumbed down the definitions to Pre-K level and still people would try to use them to justify an argument. It doesn't really change the fact that playing the game itself is the best resource you will have and this in combination with other tips offered throughout the forum and by primarily OU players will foster results. You shouldn't be using this thread by itself as your only resource in the first place.

To answer your question, ive been "lurking" on the forums almost everyday as a non member because generally find viability rankings, teambuilding workshops, and such pretty interesting. its also entertaining to read the really stupid nominations once in a while lol.

Regarding the matter on definitions, i only wanted to offer a suggestion because i noticed the past 8 pages of discussion was just a lot of bumbling noms for S. i figured, if the cutoff was a bit more clear there would be less of this. but this was just my two cents, just wanted to offer a suggestion.

Moving on, here are some brief noms i want to make (im busy today so apologies in advance if these seem a bit curt)
Excadrill A+ ---> A
i know the sand rush sweeper set is really deadly. but here are reasons why i think it should move down. First and foremost, Landorus-T. it being the most used mon in the tier and the fact that it is for the most part a stop to most variants. Priority users, Rotom-Wash also still pose a threat. second, it's contigent on tyranitar, meaning that it requires more support to function the mons in A+ (tyranitar and exca should be in the same rank)

Hoopa-U A+ to A
i seriously wonder why on earth this thing was S rank when it was first released. anyway...this is undoubtedly the best wallbreaker in the tier. 0 switchins, ridiculous dual attacking sets, you name it. but its flaws are just too big to fit an A+ mon. the typing gives it no resistances, a crippling weakness (+bad defense stat), and low speed means it can easily be revenge killed. and it isnt like u-turn and priority is rare either. i generally dont find it above the wallbreakers in A rank anyway (kyurem-b, m gard, and m zard y).

Mega Venusaur A ---> A+
i think this mon has gotten better as an anti meta threat with its many resistances proving to be huge assets to several teams. Water, grass, electric, fairy, fighting resistances are pretty good to have in the meta. it offers quite a bit as a mega and bulky grass types are becoming quite potent, and i find it does its job just as reliably as the mons in A+

Jirachi A- ----> A
the main gripe people seem to have with this pokemon is its lack of power for the scarf set, and its weakness to dark. but i find that these flaws are made up for with its versatility. its moveset can easily be tweaked to fit the team's needs. ice punch for lando and chomp, zen headbutt for fighting/poison types, iron head flinching causing rate quits, fire punch for steels, and uturn to play around stuff it can't beat. on the supportive side, it gets rocks, wish, body slam for paralysis support, and healing wish. also, its one of the best checks to fairy types. while it is rather weak, it is still splashable, versatile, and has ways to dance around its checks and i think that makes it better than A-

I saw Mew getting a lot of flak but i think A- is fine for it. it is pretty versatile in its choices. defog and stallbreaker sets are decent enough for A-. you can use colbur berry uturn/wisp to lure and kill hoopa u or cripple dark types. offensive lures are ok.

Something else i want to touch upon is quagsire moving down. charizard X isnt so top tier anymore, so quagsire's niche just shrunk. checking scizor, altaria, and belly drum azu is about as niche as the mons in B- rank. i find gastrodon a bit better at checking electrics due to its higher special defense. ill just leave that thought.

Regarding the slate:
M-aerodactyl A- ---> B+
this pokemon is kinda underwhelming for a mega evolution. it suffers from 4 moveslot syndrome and weaknesses to common priority moves. Slowbro and Garchomp are pretty prevalent as well.. too much of an opportunity cost for an A- rank threat
Likewise, Mega Heracross should move down as well because of the huge amount of opportunity cost and the fact that it needs a lot of support to function than mons in B+ (unaware clef, lando, scald users, talonflame, alakazam, faster mons, fire types and *insert long list* all cause problems for it). it hits really hard....and that's about it. there isn't much of a reason to rank it above victini in terms of physical wallbreaker.

Amoonguss and Tangrowth should move up to B+ (id argue even A-).
Tangrowth because bulky grounds are pretty prevalent and its an all in one check to them, water types, and electric types. its got a pretty good movepool too. eq slugs heatran in its underbelly, knock off threats the lati twins, and leaf storm threatens water and ground types. Amoonguss is similar but more supportive and has the poison typing to check fighting and fairies. main argument i see against the mushroom is how passive it is. i generally dont think its that passive because it has options like clear smog to prevent set ups and stun spore to cripple mons that could potentially break through it. and if you're that guy...there's foul play? lol. Regenerator is a sick ability too.

Question: I want to nom the pokemon on the blacklist to move down bc it has almost no niche and is severely outclassed. is that cool? cuz if i remember correctly, numskulls were nominating it to move up which is why it was blacklisted.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

Honestly all ranks besides S and D should be split into five. Not just A.

And why the fuck would Hoopa-U go down? That thing has only one soft counter (Mandibuzz) and is absolutely impossible to switch into. Unlike other breakers like Gardevoir which at least has stuff like Jirachi and Victini (which are more common than Mandi). This Pokemon is 100% S rank in my eyes but I'm fine with A+, I guess... but there's no way in hell it should drop.

 

[Karxrida]

The current system is fine. We don't need more unecessary arguing about more subranks.

So what if we have a crap ton of Mons in A+? It just means there are a bunch of really good and viable Mons running around the meta, and there's nothing wrong with that. People are trying to come up with a solution to a problem that doesn't actually exist.

As long as I'm here, agreeing with the Lando rise. It's really hard to build or run a team without one of its variants since it does so much. Rocks, pivot, revenge, wallbreak, sweep, and even the occasional lure make it unpredictable and versatile.

 

[nameless90]

Mega Venusaur A ---> A+
i think this mon has gotten better as an anti meta threat with its many resistances proving to be huge assets to several teams. Water, grass, electric, fairy, fighting resistances are pretty good to have in the meta. it offers quite a bit as a mega and bulky grass types are becoming quite potent, and i find it does its job just as reliably as the mons in A+

I highly disagree with this. Mega Venusaur is fine in A in my humble opinion because despite its typing being good defensively (thanks to Thick Fat, mainly) it is forced out often due to some things:
(1) Grass/Poison is poor offensively with plenty 4x resists or immunities without even thinking about them during the teambuilding. Seriously, Giga Drain and Sludge Bomb (despite being useful) are sometimes pitifully weak towards the target.
(2) The defensive set has a bad case of 4MMS because wants Giga Drain + Sludge Bomb as STABs, Synthesis (because Giga Drain is often resisted 4x and defensive Mega Venusaur can't invest much in SpA) and has to choose between Sleep Powder/HP Fire or whatever/Leech Seed. In particular the fact that Giga Drain is not that reliable as a recovery move leads Mega Venusaur to lose turns to use Synthesis (which has poor PP in a meta where Sand is good and used).
(3) The offensive sets is easily scoutable with Giga Drain + Sludge Bomb, Synthesis and HP Fire (usually) or the uncommon Earthquake/Knock Off.

Mega Venusaur is bulky and strong offensively because checks a huge number of threats but loves the possibility to switch in&out throughout the match because needs the possibilty to use its dual STABs at least for neutral damage (at least removing every Steel pokemon in the opponent's team) otherwise is easily worn down just by stacking residual damage by the monsters it is supposed to check.

Maybe bulky Grass types are used more often than before, but they have not the issue of using the Mega slot.

===> is fine in A in my opinion: it is a good pokemon but some flaws prevent it from being metagame defining such as A+ and S threats.

 

[Albacore]

Most of you guys seem to be on board with Keldeo and Lando-T being S rank, so I guess I'd better make the case for Latios. I was actually very sceptical about Latios being S when it was first brought up, however, if we're using standards that would allow Torn-T, Keldeo and Lando-T to be S rank (and we probably should), I think Latios should be S too. I think it's about on par with these three, both as a metagame-defining threat every team needs to account for, and as a really great pokemon to use that will usually pull its weight in battle.

First of all, it's about as splashable as you can get, not just becuase of Defog, but also because it combines a ton of useful resistances with great offensive prowess, it can weaken or lure a bunch of Pokemon, it can seriously damage teams without needing much support, and most of its checks are straightforward to deal with and have pretty viable checks of their own, so you rarely have to accomodate for it by changing your team round when you want to use it. It's one of the most common Pokemon in OU for a very good reason, and when you compare it to Lando-T or Keldeo it actually suffers less competition for its role, or rather, less viable competition : Keldeo has to compete with Azumarill and Manaphy for the role of offensive Water while Lando-T is very simplar to garchomp in what it does, and all 3 of these are pretty dominant threats. Meanwhile, Latios has Latias and Starmie, both of which are generally worse options. My point is, if you want to use sompething like Latios, you're almost always going to use Latios, and that's something that's less true of Lando-T and Keldeo.

The biggest problem with Latios, and the most convincing argument against it moving to S rank, is the prevalence of Pursuit. And yes, the fact that Latios can just be useless vs certain teams defenitely sucks, especially if we're looking for consistency. However, it's not like Pursuit has no counterplay at all, you can use the opportunity to get a free setup or hazards up. Pursuit users are either easily taken advantage of (TTar, Metagross) or have a lot of trouble actually switching into and trapping Latios (Weavile, Bisharp), so there's always a way around it. Also, Pursuit trappers can't actually prevent Latios from Defogging, so it's not completely useless and can still help you win a battle even if it gets trapped.

In fact, Defog almost guarantees that Latios is going to at least be able to do something in a battle. And if you ignore teams with Pursuit trappers, Latios can put in work pretty consistently in general. Like Keldeo, many teams have multiple checks to it, but like Keldeo, it's still able to put in work against teams that are prepared for it. And unlike Keldeo, and even Lando-T and Toprn-T to a lesser extent, it can threaten multiple types of teams at once.
Keldeo can threaten offensive teams with a Scarf and bulkier teams with Specs or SubCM, but it kinda has to choose : Specs and SubCM aren't very good against most offensive teams due to Keldeo's underwhelming speed tier, while Scarf just falls flat on its face vs any bulky team (aka any team with a Clefable on it).
Lando-T sorta has the same problem where Dual Dance and offensive SR setter sets struggle vs offense due to their limited defensive capabilities, but defensive and scarf sets are too easy to switch into and wear down to really be hard for bulky teams to handle.
Heck, even Torn-T has to choose between screwing over bulky teams with LO+Taunt or actually switching into offensive threats with AV. But Latios only really has to choose one set, becuase it only needs one set, one that can switch in on offensive threats and put offensive teams in a tricky situation due to the pretty low number of Dragon resist that actually work on offense, and which can come in multiple times against bulkier teams and chip away at its checks until they can no longer handle it.
Latios doesn't really have to make compromises bewteen threatening team type A and team type B becuase it can do both at once; yes, it has to choose between HP Fire, Roost and EQ sometimes, but none of these are really necessary in order to be effective against a certain team, they just make it easier. And even if Latios faces a team with 3-4 checks to it, it can always fall back on Defog, much like Lando-T can fall back on SR, Keldeo on burning stuff, or Torn-T on its pivoting capabilities.
Latios is something you'll rarely regret using, and that's what makes it S rank worthy more than anything.

Now, a while back, I said I wasn't sure about what the standards for S rank from now on. But now, after thianking about Latios for a while and comparing it to other S rank nominees, as well as A+ ranks in general, I have a pretty clear idea of it, and this final point I want to make about Latios will lead into that, so buckle up.
Okay, so the main reason Latios is so splashable is becuase, alongside its offensive power, it's also capable of supporting its team and switching into things. Granted it's not great defensively, it has trouble switching in on Keldeo more than once for example. But you can say the same thing about Keldeo and Bisharp or Weavile, after all, Knock Off + +2 Sucker Punch and Knock Off+Icicle Crash+Icicle Crash can all KO Keldeo. Same goes for offensive Lando-T variants (particularly Scarf) and LO Torn-T. But the fact that something as threatening offensively as these 4 can switch into such powerful threats is pretty remarkable in the first place.
And to me, that's what the difference bewteen A+ rank and S rank should be. In A+, you have the best offensive threats like Weavile and MLop and MZam, and the best defensive and supportive threats like Heatran and Ferrothorn. What puts a Pokemon above that and in S rank territory is not just excelling offensively, but also being capable defensively / supportively within the same moveset, or vice-versa (and of course, this has to be relative to the metagame, and whether or not said offensive/defensive capabilities are actually effective/useful in it). Torn-T and Lando-T's offensive sets, Keldeo, and yes, Latios, all fit these criteria, what with being very powerful offensive threats with greater defensive capabilities than your Bisharps and your Excadrills.
This also means that Torn-T should be S more for its LO set than anything, and that Lando-T's defensive set (great defensively+deals pretty solid damage) and dual dance set (legitimately terrifying offensively+can switch into a few things) are the sets that make it S rank. Which makes sense to me at least, since those are definitely the sets I've had most success with.

So, if we look at the current S ranks with these criteria, things get interesting. Clefable is clearly excellent as a defensive and supportive threat, and can put a lot of offensive pressure on teams with Calm Mind, so no complaints there.
Sableye isn't really capable of much offensively though, it's just a pure support Pokemon, I guess you can run Calm Mind but there's a reason it's not as popular, and that's becuase it's not that threatening, so a drop makes sense from that perspective.
And then we have XZard, which is undoubtedly a huge offensive threat, but it doesn't stand head and shoulders above A+ or anything, and the DD set really isn't very good defensively outside of cheklcing Electrics which just Volt Switch out anyway. While it can run a defensive set, its weakness to SR makes it a less than stellar defensive Pokemon in general, and nobody in their right mind would argue that the set that makes XZard S rank is anything other than its DD set. So yeah, XZard should drop too basically.

And finally, Azumarill should be S rank. It's excellent offensively and well above-average defensively for an offensive Pokemon, so it easily fits my criteria for S rank. It absolutely thrives in an offensive metagame like this, not just becuase of how hard it is for offense to handle, but also becuase of how easily it fits on offensive teams, due to the fact that it checks a bunch of huge threats to offense. It's as good as if not better than Keldeo imo, mostly becuase of how important priority is for offense nowadays.

 

[Alfalfa]

I highly disagree with this. Mega Venusaur is fine in A in my humble opinion because despite its typing being good defensively (thanks to Thick Fat, mainly) it is forced out often due to some things:
(1) Grass/Poison is poor offensively with plenty 4x resists or immunities without even thinking about them during the teambuilding. Seriously, Giga Drain and Sludge Bomb (despite being useful) are sometimes pitifully weak towards the target.
(2) The defensive set has a bad case of 4MMS because wants Giga Drain + Sludge Bomb as STABs, Synthesis (because Giga Drain is often resisted 4x and defensive Mega Venusaur can't invest much in SpA) and has to choose between Sleep Powder/HP Fire or whatever/Leech Seed. In particular the fact that Giga Drain is not that reliable as a recovery move leads Mega Venusaur to lose turns to use Synthesis (which has poor PP in a meta where Sand is good and used).
(3) The offensive sets is easily scoutable with Giga Drain + Sludge Bomb, Synthesis and HP Fire (usually) or the uncommon Earthquake/Knock Off.

Mega Venusaur is bulky and strong offensively because checks a huge number of threats but loves the possibility to switch in&out throughout the match because needs the possibilty to use its dual STABs at least for neutral damage (at least removing every Steel pokemon in the opponent's team) otherwise is easily worn down just by stacking residual damage by the monsters it is supposed to check.

===> is fine in A in my opinion: it is a good pokemon but some flaws prevent it from being metagame defining such as A+ and S threats.

Grass / Poison / Fire is sufficient offensively for offensive Mega Venusaur sets to catch opponents off guard and deal notable damage to offensive threat. Defensive sets do want more moveslots, but in no way are they impeded in usability due to being strapped for moveslots,

Scoutability I often find to be moot as a discussion point unless we are talking one-dimensional because most mons in higher ranks are not that difficult to scout against. Not many good arguments come from scoutability, and just because its movepool is commonly seen in Variation X or Y does not mean that it suffers from lack of diversity due to the majority of people running one or two common sets.

 

[nameless90]

Grass / Poison / Fire is sufficient offensively for offensive Mega Venusaur sets to catch opponents off guard and deal notable damage to offensive threat.

Yes, it is sufficient offensively but I find that:

• Grass moves are resisted by 7 types;
• Poison moves are resisted by 4 types + 1 type is immune to them. Luckily enough, Sludge Bomb has a good side effect which enables us to make more damage allowing us to overwhelm even a switch-in of a supposed check.
  
• Fire coverage has only 60 base power thus making it effective towards pokemon weak 4x to it or 2x to it if they have meager defences. I even think than Earthquake/Knock Off (with hindering nature) are more solid options due to the better base power.

==> if the opponent has a i.e. Steel type and a i.e. Ground type you are forced to a 50% situation: I click Giga Drain to nail somenthing is weak to it or i choose Sludge Bomb? Or I choose to risk an HP Fire?
Not only that but Giga Drain is a useful move because allows Mega Venusaur to regain health while dishing out damage preserving momentum; if you use it towards a monster which resists this move 4x you have almost lost a turn (i.e. vs Heatran switch-in but, at least, you break the Air Baloon). I want to say that in practice that Mega Venusaur's damage output is hindered by many resists.

==> that's not an A+ monster in my book because is stopped cold in many situations.

I don't even think that Venusaur's coverage catches opponents off guard that often because has little variations.

Defensive sets do want more moveslots, but in no way are they impeded in usability due to being strapped for moveslots

They are certainly good -that's why we are talking about an A rank pokemon- but I don't think they have became so much strong to be worthy of A+ rank.

Scoutability I often find to be moot as a discussion point unless we are talking one-dimensional because most mons in higher ranks are not that difficult to scout against. Not many good arguments come from scoutability, and just because its movepool is commonly seen in Variation X or Y does not mean that it suffers from lack of diversity due to the majority of people running one or two common sets.

Scoutability is an issue in this case because between the dual STABs with plenty resists and the choice between power or bulk, Mega Venusaur can be removed easily by strong Flying and Psychic moves or just stacking residual damage stalling its recovery options. Having a small usable movepool is an issue if you don't have strong traits such as good typing, good offences/defences: it's not that Venusaur is bad, is just predictable enough to play around it with little effort.
==> In my opinion A rank is fine: checks a good chunck of the meta, is stopped cold by another chunck of pokemons and uses a Mega slot for a bulky Grass which can be replaced with other similar choices which are worse than it 1vs1 but not by so much.

 

[Alfalfa]

Yes, it is sufficient offensively but I find that:

• Grass moves are resisted by 7 types;
• Poison moves are resisted by 4 types + 1 type is immune to them. Luckily enough, Sludge Bomb has a good side effect which enables us to make more damage allowing us to overwhelm even a switch-in of a supposed check.
  
• Fire coverage has only 60 base power thus making it effective towards pokemon weak 4x to it or 2x to it if they have meager defences. I even think than Earthquake/Knock Off (with hindering nature) are more solid options due to the better base power.

==> if the opponent has a i.e. Steel type and a i.e. Ground type you are forced to a 50% situation: I click Giga Drain to nail somenthing is weak to it or i choose Sludge Bomb? Or I choose to risk an HP Fire?
Not only that but Giga Drain is a useful move because allows Mega Venusaur to regain health while dishing out damage preserving momentum; if you use it towards a monster which resists this move 4x you have almost lost a turn (i.e. vs Heatran switch-in but, at least, you break the Air Baloon). I want to say that in practice that Mega Venusaur's damage output is hindered by many resists.

==> that's not an A+ monster in my book because is stopped cold in many situations.

I don't even think that Venusaur's coverage catches opponents off guard that often because has little variations.


They are certainly good -that's why we are talking about an A rank pokemon- but I don't think they have became so much strong to be worthy of A+ rank.


Scoutability is an issue in this case because between the dual STABs with plenty resists and the choice between power or bulk, Mega Venusaur can be removed easily by strong Flying and Psychic moves or just stacking residual damage stalling its recovery options. Having a small usable movepool is an issue if you don't have strong traits such as good typing, good offences/defences: it's not that Venusaur is bad, is just predictable enough to play around it with little effort.
==> In my opinion A rank is fine: checks a good chunck of the meta, is stopped cold by another chunck of pokemons and uses a Mega slot for a bulky Grass which can be replaced with other similar choices which are worse than it 1vs1 but not by so much.

Most of the mons Mega Venusaur has issues breaking through due to resists are not Pokemon Mega Venusaur should not be attempting to beat one-on-one, as they usually possess other characteristics that put Mega Venusaur in a further disadvantage.

You can cite strong Flying or Psychic-type attacks, but you realize that Mega Venusaur would not be staying on those threats anyways, and they do not impede Mega Venusaur's tanking capabilities to the point where it is difficult to use. It still is a fat, tanky mon capable of switching in on a number of top threats, and while

Most skilled players are not going to let you "play around it with little effort"; if a player is not exerting the necessary pressure consistently to avoid this, that is not Mega Venusaur's fault, but the player.

I honestly have no opinion on whether or not Mega Venusaur should go up a rank; I am merely challenging your arguments by addressing your argument's flaws. That is how quality discussion forms, assuming the responses aren't utter garbage.

 

[Srn]

In fact, Defog almost guarantees that Latios is going to at least be able to do something in a battle. And if you ignore teams with Pursuit trappers, Latios can put in work pretty consistently in general. Like Keldeo, many teams have multiple checks to it, but like Keldeo, it's still able to put in work against teams that are prepared for it. And unlike Keldeo, and even Lando-T and Toprn-T to a lesser extent, it can threaten multiple types of teams at once.
Keldeo can threaten offensive teams with a Scarf and bulkier teams with Specs or SubCM, but it kinda has to choose : Specs and SubCM aren't very good against most offensive teams due to Keldeo's underwhelming speed tier, while Scarf just falls flat on its face vs any bulky team (aka any team with a Clefable on it).
Lando-T sorta has the same problem where Dual Dance and offensive SR setter sets struggle vs offense due to their limited defensive capabilities, but defensive and scarf sets are too easy to switch into and wear down to really be hard for bulky teams to handle.
Heck, even Torn-T has to choose between screwing over bulky teams with LO+Taunt or actually switching into offensive threats with AV. But Latios only really has to choose one set, becuase it only needs one set, one that can switch in on offensive threats and put offensive teams in a tricky situation due to the pretty low number of Dragon resist that actually work on offense, and which can come in multiple times against bulkier teams and chip away at its checks until they can no longer handle it.
Latios doesn't really have to make compromises bewteen threatening team type A and team type B becuase it can do both at once; yes, it has to choose between HP Fire, Roost and EQ sometimes, but none of these are really necessary in order to be effective against a certain team, they just make it easier. And even if Latios faces a team with 3-4 checks to it, it can always fall back on Defog, much like Lando-T can fall back on SR, Keldeo on burning stuff, or Torn-T on its pivoting capabilities.
Latios is something you'll rarely regret using, and that's what makes it S rank worthy more than anything.

Now, a while back, I said I wasn't sure about what the standards for S rank from now on. But now, after thianking about Latios for a while and comparing it to other S rank nominees, as well as A+ ranks in general, I have a pretty clear idea of it, and this final point I want to make about Latios will lead into that, so buckle up.
Okay, so the main reason Latios is so splashable is becuase, alongside its offensive power, it's also capable of supporting its team and switching into things. Granted it's not great defensively, it has trouble switching in on Keldeo more than once for example. But you can say the same thing about Keldeo and Bisharp or Weavile, after all, Knock Off + +2 Sucker Punch and Knock Off+Icicle Crash+Icicle Crash can all KO Keldeo. Same goes for offensive Lando-T variants (particularly Scarf) and LO Torn-T. But the fact that something as threatening offensively as these 4 can switch into such powerful threats is pretty remarkable in the first place.
And to me, that's what the difference bewteen A+ rank and S rank should be. In A+, you have the best offensive threats like Weavile and MLop and MZam, and the best defensive and supportive threats like Heatran and Ferrothorn. What puts a Pokemon above that and in S rank territory is not just excelling offensively, but also being capable defensively / supportively within the same moveset, or vice-versa (and of course, this has to be relative to the metagame, and whether or not said offensive/defensive capabilities are actually effective/useful in it). Torn-T and Lando-T's offensive sets, Keldeo, and yes, Latios, all fit these criteria, what with being very powerful offensive threats with greater defensive capabilities than your Bisharps and your Excadrills.

And finally, Azumarill should be S rank. It's excellent offensively and well above-average defensively for an offensive Pokemon, so it easily fits my criteria for S rank. It absolutely thrives in an offensive metagame like this, not just becuase of how hard it is for offense to handle, but also becuase of how easily it fits on offensive teams, due to the fact that it checks a bunch of huge threats to offense. It's as good as if not better than Keldeo imo, mostly becuase of how important priority is for offense nowadays.

I have to disagree with the argument that defog gaurantees latios is going to do something in a battle. It may not be as obvious to some, but the fact of the matter is that Latios is not a good defogger.
Well then what is? A good hazard remover is not only not weak to SR, but it has to actually be able to threaten the mons that set SR. Something like offensive starmie can threaten out lando-t, garchomp, heatran, tyranitar, terrakion, skarm, and with hp fire if you really want it, ferro. This leaves clefable and chansey as pretty much the only rocker that starmie cannot spin against, meaning that imo offensive starmie is pmuch the best hazard remover right now. (too bad its weak af)
Latios, on the other hand, cannot safely switch-in to landot or garchomp (but they can't come back in, you force them out), and depending on its coverage (or lack of, in favor of roost) will also lose to tyranitar, ferro, heatran, or skarm in the hazard game, as they can just come right in on your defog and set hazards again. And Clefable/chansey will always be able to come in and set SR back up either way. While it is fast and bulky and strong and all that, pursuit is extremely crippling and effective, and latios either way isn't great at removing hazards. Also, many of the things latios checks have ways to beat it, like icy wind from specs keld or knock off from thundy or mana ice beam etc etc
It should stay A+

I also think you're underplaying specs keldeo, av torn-t, and dual dance lando-t's matchup vs offense, they're all quite fantastic if u ask me, but that's a bit off topic.

Azu should also stay A+ only because of how slow it is. 50 base speed puts it even below tyranitar and clefable, so it always needs about 100 evs in speed (unless sap sipper, which actually isn't total shit). Priority mitigates this somewhat but lack of speed is always an issue for this thing.
Another less obvious issue is that azu is a little bit prediction reliant. While its stabs are great, they hit two opposite sides of the meta completely. If your azu is at half after tanking+killing my keldeo, and I have a latios and a cbzor (thats at 45% or so) that can both kill you from where you are, you need to perfectly predict which one will come in to stay alive, even though in theory you beat both. Don't get me wrong, this thing is super good, and i've considered it myself for S several times, but its not quite there

EDIT: gamer boy

Sure, it has its scarf set which is supposed to take on offense, but it fails to do so due to it being setup fodder for common offense mons like Bisharp and Breloom

Isn't that true for any scarfer? its super easy to set up on a locked move of a scarfer given the right typing, but nevertheless scarfers are quite good at punishing offense, scarf lando-t especially right now is sorta dunkin on everything. But for mix scarf hoopa to have no switch-ins on offense, unlike other scarfers being somewhat simple to check (scarf keldo --> lati, scarf lant --> lol other lanT, scarf kube --> ttar/exca/tran), is pretty significant. Even with increased usage of scarftar to trap hoopa, it can still resort to sub to occasionally bypass it. HOopa should stay in A+

 

[nameless90]

Most of the mons Mega Venusaur has issues breaking through due to resists are not Pokemon Mega Venusaur should not be attempting to beat one-on-one, as they usually possess other characteristics that put Mega Venusaur in a further disadvantage.

And Mega Venusaur has problems to beat many pokemons 1 vs 1 which is supposed to check* due to problems mentioned above by myself (coverage and recovery). That's why I said that Mega Venusaur loves the opportunity to switch-in&out throughout the match. This means that even hazards control is needed (towards SR and Spikes) because Mega Venusaur can't easily replenish its HP.
To summarize:

• Plenty resists on its dual STABs and limited coverage (both in number and power) including Giga Drain and Synthesis which may be a liability despite being your best recovery move. Luckily, the poison chance from Sludge Bomb is really nice to have.
  
• The need of switching repeatedly leads it to require hazards control (which is a thing every team should have) but what I'm trying to say is this makes pressure on your Defogger/Rapid Spinner thus making you predictable towards your opponent. Simply said, Venusaur is not self sufficient in many situations because Synthesis' 8 PP may be not enough. Giga Drain is not that reliable if doesn't hit a target 2x weak to it.

*I.e. Rotom-W or Keldeo (see Will o' Wisp and Scald burns) because its recovery or is unreliable (Giga Drain when hitting something with 4x resist on the switch) or makes you lose momentum and won't last long (Synthesis).

You can cite strong Flying or Psychic-type attacks, but you realize that Mega Venusaur would not be staying on those threats anyways, and they do not impede Mega Venusaur's tanking capabilities to the point where it is difficult to use. It still is a fat, tanky mon capable of switching in on a number of top threats, and while [...I think that there is a part of the sentence missing...]

There are situations -not even that rare- where you have no choice to check threats 1 vs 1. Two examples:

• Manaphy
• Mega Diance

Generally Mega Venusaur can beat these 1 vs 1 but what will happen if these threats run Psychic as a surprise coverage move?
If the opponent plays one of these two monster you will try to wear them down immediately (even Diance if you lack Bullet Punch in your team) so you'll send your "check" to them. Psychic is not as bad as people say because it allows to beat Keldeo, Lopunny, Amoonguss (Mega Venusaur's replacement) and so on.
Amoongus has the same problems of Mega Venusaur (the need to switch-in&out repeatedly, sometimes lacks strenght behind its attacks) plus others (the lack of Thick Fat) but, at least, has Regenerator (complemented nicely by Giga Drain+Leftovers/Black Sludge) to make good use of its switches in&out.
The problem I see with Mega Venusaur rising is that but I think that in A renk is fine because it has its merits.

Most skilled players are not going to let you "play around it with little effort"; if a player is not exerting the necessary pressure consistently to avoid this, that is not Mega Venusaur's fault, but the player.

The fact is that Mega Venusaur makes you losing momentum very easily (when you are at 40% health and you are outsped by the opponent) and this happens even if you are skilled because the opponent has an easy time to play around your middling Spe pressuring your offensive/defensive tank to click Synthesis or forcing you to switch losing the turn. This is the same argument used towards Hippowdon: too much pressure on its recovery move due to its Spe.

I honestly have no opinion on whether or not Mega Venusaur should go up a rank; I am merely challenging your arguments by addressing your argument's flaws. That is how quality discussion forms, assuming the responses aren't utter garbage.

No problem, I try to answer at my best possibilities.

 

[Martin]

And why the fuck would Hoopa-U go down? That thing has only one soft counter (Mandibuzz) and is absolutely impossible to switch into. Unlike other breakers like Gardevoir which at least has stuff like Jirachi and Victini (which are more common than Mandi). This Pokemon is 100% S rank in my eyes but I'm fine with A+, I guess... but there's no way in hell it should drop.

The reason that I said that I think it should move down is because this meta is really freaking unkind to it. A Pokemon like Hoopa-U thrives in a slow, defense/balance-oriented metagame where it can take advantage of its brutal power to pull apart slower teams. However, with teams getting faster and more offensive by the day, Hoopa-U's consistency has decreased. Sure, it has its scarf set which is supposed to take on offense, but it fails to do so due to it being setup fodder for common offense mons like Bisharp and Breloom as soon as it locks itself into a move - which means that it is kinda counterproductive as an offense breaker. Honestly, as the meta is much faster than it was before, Pokemon like Hoopa-U and Manaphy naturally get "worse" due to the fact that their roles are much harder to execute consistently in such a metagame due to the former's low speed/defense and the latter's reliance on a boost (which is hard to get v.s. offense) in order to consistently be highly effective in a match. You seem to be looking at it in a vacuum as if these ranks are based on numbers and statistics, but remember that it is supposed to paint a picture of the current metagame as opposed to that, and this means that current trends are taken into account - and these are just not in its favor like they were before the Goth ban (although that feels like an eternity ago now).

Man re-reading what I wrote I kinda sound like the god of repeating himself in concectutive sentences lol, but that is the jist of why I said that I think it should move down.

 

[Alfalfa]

And Mega Venusaur has problems to beat many pokemons 1 vs 1 which is supposed to check* due to problems mentioned above by myself (coverage and recovery). That's why I said that Mega Venusaur loves the opportunity to switch-in&out throughout the match. This means that even hazards control is needed (towards SR and Spikes) because Mega Venusaur can't easily replenish its HP.
To summarize:

• Plenty resists on its dual STABs and limited coverage (both in number and power) including Giga Drain and Synthesis which may be a liability despite being your best recovery move. Luckily, the poison chance from Sludge Bomb is really nice to have.
  
• The need of switching repeatedly leads it to require hazards control (which is a thing every team should have) but what I'm trying to say is this makes pressure on your Defogger/Rapid Spinner thus making you predictable towards your opponent. Simply said, Venusaur is not self sufficient in many situations because Synthesis' 8 PP may be not enough. Giga Drain is not that reliable if doesn't hit a target 2x weak to it.

*I.e. Rotom-W or Keldeo (see Will o' Wisp and Scald burns) because its recovery or is unreliable (Giga Drain when hitting something with 4x resist on the switch) or makes you lose momentum and won't last long (Synthesis).

There are situations -not even that rare- where you have no choice to check threat 1 vs 1. Two examples:

• Manaphy
• Mega Diance

Generally Mega Venusaur can beat these 1 vs 1 but what will happen if these threats run Psychic as a surprise coverage move?
If the opponent plays one of these two monster you will try to wear them down immediately (even Diance if you lack Bullet Punch in your team) so you'll send your "check" to them. Psychic is not as bad as people say because it allows to beat Keldeo, Lopunny, Amoonguss (Mega Venusaur's replacement) and so on.
Amoongus has the same problems of Mega Venusaur (the need to switch-in&out repeatedly, sometimes lacks strenght behind its attacks) plus others (the lack of Thick Fat) but, at least, has Regenerator (complemented nicely by Giga Drain+Leftovers/Black Sludge) to make good use of its switches in&out.
The problem I see with Mega Venusaur rising is that but I think that in A renk is fine because it has its merits.

The fact is that Mega Venusaur makes you losing momentum very easily (when you are at 40% health and you are outsped by the opponent) and this happens even if you are skilled because the opponent has an easy time to play around your middling Spe pressuring your offensive/defensive tank to click Synthesis or forcing you to switch losing the turn. This is the same argument used towards Hippowdon: too much pressure on its recovery move due to its Spe.

No problem, I try to answer at my best possibilities.

Literally every Keldeo check is screwed over by Scald. This is not exclusive to Mega Venusaur, though I will admit that it dislikes burns particularly more than others.

Coverage moves have more to do with meta trends than gauging a target's viability. Fitting back-up offensive checks to mons like Manaphy and Mega Diancie is not that difficult to supply, and "surprise coverage" moves really are not as much of an issue with Mega Venusaur as it would a mon like Ferrothorn, especially considering Mega Venusaur is usually paired with mons that can compensate if it gets bopped by the wrong coverage move (there really is no argument to drop here based on "surprise coverage", as surprise coverage would screw over anyone.

Amoonguss and Mega Venusaur are seperated by an entire rank, so a comparison between these mons in an attempt to nom a drop is not a very accurate way of discussing a mon's viability.

 

[Sablenite]

Honestly all ranks besides S and D should be split into five. Not just A.

And why the fuck would Hoopa-U go down? That thing has only one soft counter (Mandibuzz) and is absolutely impossible to switch into. Unlike other breakers like Gardevoir which at least has stuff like Jirachi and Victini (which are more common than Mandi). This Pokemon is 100% S rank in my eyes but I'm fine with A+, I guess... but there's no way in hell it should drop.

Its dead weight against offense, whereas Kyurem-B actually has resistances and can kill stuff on top of that Bisharp and Tyranatar cause troble for it not to mention u-turn exists and is really common, and just becuase you have no switch-ins for it just means don't let it switch in for free. Sableye, Altairia, and Venusuar is the current stall threats, and the 1st two can check it well, while Venusaur is commonly paired with Mandibuzz, not to mention full stall is about dead and semi-stall usually deals with it relatively easily.

 

[Vert]

anyone who thinks hoopa-u is even close to dropping should be banned from smogon. just for a day because i think you'd realize the next day of course.

the choice band set is a monster, atleast 2hkoing, if not ohkoing every relevant thing that doesn't resist. hyperspace fury doesn't take rough skin + rocky helmet so don't give me that bullshit if you want to refute to a vague point such as the latter. scarf sets are good as well, still packing good power and being able to break through faster sub mons such as gengar and keldeo has cute utility. not mentioning that fact that you have 2 different extremely powerful stabs to choose from when preparing a late game sweep. life orb in my honest opinion is asking itself why wouldn't i be using band unless you are using the main draw of the set which is moves like fire punch, thunderbolt, grass knot, hp ice, and trick room (which is a weird yet effective niche set). outside of those, sub(salac/orb) and av are other sets that show it ain't some bullshit 'mon you think you can put out on the streets of chicago.

also, deadweight against offense? nigga please, i hope you realize this thing can live mega charizard y's flamethrower, latios's draco meteor, and +2 serperior's leaf storm of all things so please check some real game scenarios because the reason why this thing is so good is you can't switch into it. and offense mons which are "supposedly" supposed to have no problem with hoopa are being forced out? this thing is the epitome of a savage. no reason for this to drop, at all

 

[Heavyweapons Mann]

Vertex To address your argument, you bring up good points. It's just Hoopa-U has very bad physical bulk. The main challenge to using it is bringing it in safely, as it has no relevant resistances and is easily OHKOd by U-turn. Also, it needs Scarf to fare well against offense. As for those calcs, it has very little health left after taking those attacks, so it's a very shaky check. I think Life Orb's main draw is increased power compared to a Scarf Set.

 

[SJCrew]

Its dead weight against offense, whereas Kyurem-B actually has resistances and can kill stuff on top of that Bisharp and Tyranatar cause troble for it not to mention u-turn exists and is really common, and just becuase you have no switch-ins for it just means don't let it switch in for free. Sableye, Altairia, and Venusuar is the current stall threats, and the 1st two can check it well, while Venusaur is commonly paired with Mandibuzz, not to mention full stall is about dead and semi-stall usually deals with it relatively easily.

100% convinced that neither you nor the guy above me have actually played against a good and proper Hoopa-U, as you'd be seeing a lot more of this:
252+ Atk Choice Band Hoopa Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 195-229 (64.1 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Most people actually switch their Sableye out of Hoopa-U, knowing they can't afford to lose it. Also, Mandibuzz can hold this Gunk Shot for me: 252+ Atk Choice Band Hoopa Unbound Gunk Shot vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 175-207 (41.3 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Not even doing the calcs for Altaria. Even DDD takes way too much from HSF and is slower on top of that. Pursuit Tyranitar and Bisharp do pose a threat. Outside of that, good luck finding some switch-ins for offense. What else you got?

 

[Sablenite]

also, deadweight against offense? nigga please, i hope you realize this thing can live mega charizard y's flamethrower,

What YZard isn't running Modest Fire Blast anymore?

100% convinced that neither you nor the guy above me have actually played against a good and proper Hoopa-U, as you'd be seeing a lot more of this:
252+ Atk Choice Band Hoopa Unbound Hyperspace Fury vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 195-229 (64.1 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Most people actually switch their Sableye out of Hoopa-U, knowing they can't afford to lose it. Also, Mandibuzz can hold this Gunk Shot for me: 252+ Atk Choice Band Hoopa Unbound Gunk Shot vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 175-207 (41.3 - 48.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Not even doing the calcs for Altaria. Even DDD takes way too much from HSF and is slower on top of that. Pursuit Tyranitar and Bisharp do pose a threat. Outside of that, good luck finding some switch-ins for offense. What else you got?

That is assuming every set is choice banded. which locking yourself into anything poses it to be used as set up if it can't get the 2HKO on whatever or is easily revenged. Let me find a replay showing the Life orb set flailing against SEMI-STALL http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-321214781 Not the best replay but this happens way to often


Lastly I'd like to nominate Garchomp to S. It can successfully run 5 sets Mixed-LifeOrb, SubSalacSD, RHTank, Choice Scarf, and has a possible Mega Evolution that are all extremely threatening. And it is easily splashable and provides so many different roles and is a great SR setter.

 

[squirtletheturtle]

I highly disagree with this. Mega Venusaur is fine in A in my humble opinion because despite its typing being good defensively (thanks to Thick Fat, mainly) it is forced out often due to some things:
(1) Grass/Poison is poor offensively with plenty 4x resists or immunities without even thinking about them during the teambuilding. Seriously, Giga Drain and Sludge Bomb (despite being useful) are sometimes pitifully weak towards the target.
(2) The defensive set has a bad case of 4MMS because wants Giga Drain + Sludge Bomb as STABs, Synthesis (because Giga Drain is often resisted 4x and defensive Mega Venusaur can't invest much in SpA) and has to choose between Sleep Powder/HP Fire or whatever/Leech Seed. In particular the fact that Giga Drain is not that reliable as a recovery move leads Mega Venusaur to lose turns to use Synthesis (which has poor PP in a meta where Sand is good and used).
(3) The offensive sets is easily scoutable with Giga Drain + Sludge Bomb, Synthesis and HP Fire (usually) or the uncommon Earthquake/Knock Off.

Mega Venusaur is bulky and strong offensively because checks a huge number of threats but loves the possibility to switch in&out throughout the match because needs the possibilty to use its dual STABs at least for neutral damage (at least removing every Steel pokemon in the opponent's team) otherwise is easily worn down just by stacking residual damage by the monsters it is supposed to check.

Maybe bulky Grass types are used more often than before, but they have not the issue of using the Mega slot.

===> is fine in A in my opinion: it is a good pokemon but some flaws prevent it from being metagame defining such as A+ and S threats.

1) what's your point on this? grass/poison hits what it is supposed to check named grass and water types. sludge bomb hits decently hard enough on electric types and the poison chance helps in some place. venusaur gets forced out cuz its STABs dont cover enough? why? you dont see people bashing calm mind clefable for running from heatrans like a bumbling bobo cuz moonblast doesn't "cover enough." the mighty keldeo has STABs at relatively the same power level and it is forced out because water and fighting type moves don't cover the plethora of clefables, bulky grass types, and latis in the tier. my point is, venusaur hits what it needs to with poison+grass. and hp fire is nifty for smacking ferros. many top tier mons are "stopped cold" clefable can't break past heatran to save its life. keldeo can't dent bulky grasses. landorus-t struggles with opposing bulky grounds like gliscor and other lando. so why is this such a big major problem for only mega venusaur?

2) synthesis, sludge bomb, and giga drain are mandatory. the last slot is more customizable (i dont find knock off, hp fire, leech, and sleep powder fighting for that last slot). hp fire smacks scizor and ferro and knock off is utility. leech seed if you want healing. and sleep powder if you need something asleep. these moves are just extra options for venusaur when i use it. venusaur doesnt NEED those moves like the case with latios (has trouble deciding with defog/psyshock/roost for a lure move hp fire/fighting/earthquake). giving up knock off for hp fire or leech seed isnt as drastic as giving up defog or psyshock for hp fire.

3) venusaur is supposed to check and kill things (waters, grasses, fairies) offensively or defensively. it isnt a mon with colorful options anyway. like i said, its STABs and synthesis are all it really needs to get the job done.

i get that this mon is forced out often. but what mon isn't? clefable will be pulverized by a good steel type (jirachi, heatran, etc) and poisons (a well timed gunk shot from hoopa) and ferro will be forced out by fire and fighting attacks.

its defensive capabilities are so good that in many teams its mega slot is justifiable. checks water, grass, electrics, fairies, and fighting types in one slot.

keldeo, mega altaria, azumarill, gyarados, landorus-t (non swords dance), mega manectric, thundurus (non hp flying), m diancie, serperior, lopunny, clefable, breloom, raikou (non extrasensory). many of those mons are top tier btw. and i remind you this is one teamslot.

this is arguably the best anti-meta mon rn and sturdy checks to many top tier mons. psychic and flying types (if anyone is gonna argue that next) should be checked by a teammate cuz venusaur isn't supposed to stay in anyway. and this doesnt exactly mean much against it because no defensive pokemon can check everything at once. its splashable, consistent and its defensive assets are very valuable.

 

[Cheryl.]

1) what's your point on this? grass/poison hits what it is supposed to check named grass and water types. sludge bomb hits decently hard enough on electric types and the poison chance helps in some place. venusaur gets forced out cuz its STABs dont cover enough? why? you dont see people bashing calm mind clefable for running from heatrans like a bumbling bobo cuz moonblast doesn't "cover enough." the mighty keldeo has STABs at relatively the same power level and it is forced out because water and fighting type moves don't cover the plethora of clefables, bulky grass types, and latis in the tier. my point is, venusaur hits what it needs to with poison+grass. and hp fire is nifty for smacking ferros. many top tier mons are "stopped cold" clefable can't break past heatran to save its life. keldeo can't dent bulky grasses. landorus-t struggles with opposing bulky grounds like gliscor and other lando. so why is this such a big major problem for only mega venusaur?

2) synthesis, sludge bomb, and giga drain are mandatory. the last slot is more customizable (i dont find knock off, hp fire, leech, and sleep powder fighting for that last slot). hp fire smacks scizor and ferro and knock off is utility. leech seed if you want healing. and sleep powder if you need something asleep. these moves are just extra options for venusaur when i use it. venusaur doesnt NEED those moves like the case with latios (has trouble deciding with defog/psyshock/roost for a lure move hp fire/fighting/earthquake). giving up knock off for hp fire or leech seed isnt as drastic as giving up defog or psyshock for hp fire.

3) venusaur is supposed to check and kill things (waters, grasses, fairies) offensively or defensively. it isnt a mon with colorful options anyway. like i said, its STABs and synthesis are all it really needs to get the job done.

i get that this mon is forced out often. but what mon isn't? clefable will be pulverized by a good steel type (jirachi, heatran, etc) and poisons (a well timed gunk shot from hoopa) and ferro will be forced out by fire and fighting attacks.

its defensive capabilities are so good that in many teams its mega slot is justifiable. checks water, grass, electrics, fairies, and fighting types in one slot.

keldeo, mega altaria, azumarill, gyarados, landorus-t (non swords dance), mega manectric, thundurus (non hp flying), m diancie, serperior, lopunny, clefable, breloom, raikou (non extrasensory). many of those mons are top tier btw. and i remind you this is one teamslot.

this is arguably the best anti-meta mon rn and sturdy checks to many top tier mons. psychic and flying types (if anyone is gonna argue that next) should be checked by a teammate cuz venusaur isn't supposed to stay in anyway. and this doesnt exactly mean much against it because no defensive pokemon can check everything at once. its splashable, consistent and its defensive assets are very valuable.

Mega Venusaur is definetely a great mon rn, but I disagree with it moving up to A+ for the reasons listed. Grass/Poison is decent coverage, but it still will get walled by many mons, like Klefki and Heatran, unless u run HP Fire or EQ, respectively. Also, Amoonguss gives it competition for a moveslot as it doesn't fill the Mega slot, and while it doesn't have as much of an offensive presence as Mega Venu, it has Regenerator to live longer, SPORE, and as stated earlier, doesn't fill up a mega slot so the team can use other Megas. While Mega Venusaur checks a shitton of mons, sometimes it can do too much in a match and be worn down from repeated switchins, especially if it gets burned from Scald from stuff like Keldeo. Overall, Mega Venusaur is a great mon most definetely, but I can't really see it moving up with it's problems.

Also I disagree with Hoopa-Unbound lowering to A. It's still an awesome wallbreaker that has like no switchins other than Mandibuzz lol, and a well-played Hoopa-U can even threaten offense decently. While it's mediocre matchup against offense and the declining number of bulky teams may hurt it a bit, it still is a monsterous wallbreaker with it's coverage and versatility, ranging from the standard LO and CB sets to Choice Scarf to threaten offense better to even Nasty Plot, it definetely deserves A+.

 

[squirtletheturtle]

Mega Venusaur is definetely a great mon rn, but I disagree with it moving up to A+ for the reasons listed. Grass/Poison is decent coverage, but it still will get walled by many mons, like Klefki and Heatran, unless u run HP Fire or EQ, respectively. Also, Amoonguss gives it competition for a moveslot as it doesn't fill the Mega slot, and while it doesn't have as much of an offensive presence as Mega Venu, it has Regenerator to live longer, SPORE, and as stated earlier, doesn't fill up a mega slot so the team can use other Megas. While Mega Venusaur checks a shitton of mons, sometimes it can do too much in a match and be worn down from repeated switchins, especially if it gets burned from Scald from stuff like Keldeo. Overall, Mega Venusaur is a great mon most definetely, but I can't really see it moving up with it's problems.

getting walled by klefki and heatran? the fact that it can run viable options to actually beat these threats (eq and hp fire) is something it has over amoonguss. and besides, sometimes the switch is so obvious that a well seasoned player can pull a double switch to get the advantage or synthesis/leech seed on the switch. and even then, venusaur's job is to check top tier threats with its bulk, typing and STABs.

and like i said, every mon is walled by something.clefable is hard walled by heatran and venusaur, maybe we should move that down because that's such a big problem. maybe we should keldeo down because bulkly grasses are rising. or how about charizard x because it can't struggles breaking through slowbro, heatran (w/o eq) or defensive landorus t.

venusaur gets sleep powder so i mean the whole spore thing isn't exactly a huge thing amoonguss has above it. venusaur has thick fat, more bulk and offensive presence which are very nice advantages. thick fat means it can actually take keldeo, hp ice thundurus, and overheat mega manectric more reliably. belly drum azumarill can beat amoonguss with knock off, but it can't beat venusaur due to its generally higher speed (unless its jolly...but i mean....). venusaur does have more options meaning that it does have ways of getting around or annoying its checks (namely eq and knock off and a more powerful hp fire). the higher bulk also helps in many places as well with many top tier threats getting hard-walled by this mon. these advantages overweigh the negatives of costing a mega slot.

scald burns are annoying to anyone not named magic guard clefable, conkeldurr/heracross or celebi/starmie. amoonguss' lesser bulk + chip damage can allow many mons to overpower it. tangrowth doesnt really like a weakened earthquake and knock off. no one exactly loves chip damage.

First of all, it's about as splashable as you can get, not just becuase of Defog, but also because it combines a ton of useful resistances with great offensive prowess, it can weaken or lure a bunch of Pokemon, it can seriously damage teams without needing much support, and most of its checks are straightforward to deal with and have pretty viable checks of their own, so you rarely have to accomodate for it by changing your team round when you want to use it. It's one of the most common Pokemon in OU for a very good reason, and when you compare it to Lando-T or Keldeo it actually suffers less competition for its role, or rather, less viable competition : Keldeo has to compete with Azumarill and Manaphy for the role of offensive Water while Lando-T is very simplar to garchomp in what it does, and all 3 of these are pretty dominant threats. Meanwhile, Latios has Latias and Starmie, both of which are generally worse options. My point is, if you want to use sompething like Latios, you're almost always going to use Latios, and that's something that's less true of Lando-T and Keldeo.

The biggest problem with Latios, and the most convincing argument against it moving to S rank, is the prevalence of Pursuit. And yes, the fact that Latios can just be useless vs certain teams defenitely sucks, especially if we're looking for consistency. However, it's not like Pursuit has no counterplay at all, you can use the opportunity to get a free setup or hazards up. Pursuit users are either easily taken advantage of (TTar, Metagross) or have a lot of trouble actually switching into and trapping Latios (Weavile, Bisharp), so there's always a way around it. Also, Pursuit trappers can't actually prevent Latios from Defogging, so it's not completely useless and can still help you win a battle even if it gets trapped.

In fact, Defog almost guarantees that Latios is going to at least be able to do something in a battle. And if you ignore teams with Pursuit trappers, Latios can put in work pretty consistently in general. Like Keldeo, many teams have multiple checks to it, but like Keldeo, it's still able to put in work against teams that are prepared for it. And unlike Keldeo, and even Lando-T and Toprn-T to a lesser extent, it can threaten multiple types of teams at once.
Keldeo can threaten offensive teams with a Scarf and bulkier teams with Specs or SubCM, but it kinda has to choose : Specs and SubCM aren't very good against most offensive teams due to Keldeo's underwhelming speed tier, while Scarf just falls flat on its face vs any bulky team (aka any team with a Clefable on it).
Lando-T sorta has the same problem where Dual Dance and offensive SR setter sets struggle vs offense due to their limited defensive capabilities, but defensive and scarf sets are too easy to switch into and wear down to really be hard for bulky teams to handle.
Heck, even Torn-T has to choose between screwing over bulky teams with LO+Taunt or actually switching into offensive threats with AV. But Latios only really has to choose one set, becuase it only needs one set, one that can switch in on offensive threats and put offensive teams in a tricky situation due to the pretty low number of Dragon resist that actually work on offense, and which can come in multiple times against bulkier teams and chip away at its checks until they can no longer handle it.
Latios doesn't really have to make compromises bewteen threatening team type A and team type B becuase it can do both at once; yes, it has to choose between HP Fire, Roost and EQ sometimes, but none of these are really necessary in order to be effective against a certain team, they just make it easier. And even if Latios faces a team with 3-4 checks to it, it can always fall back on Defog, much like Lando-T can fall back on SR, Keldeo on burning stuff, or Torn-T on its pivoting capabilities.
Latios is something you'll rarely regret using, and that's what makes it S rank worthy more than anything.

Now, a while back, I said I wasn't sure about what the standards for S rank from now on. But now, after thianking about Latios for a while and comparing it to other S rank nominees, as well as A+ ranks in general, I have a pretty clear idea of it, and this final point I want to make about Latios will lead into that, so buckle up.
Okay, so the main reason Latios is so splashable is becuase, alongside its offensive power, it's also capable of supporting its team and switching into things. Granted it's not great defensively, it has trouble switching in on Keldeo more than once for example. But you can say the same thing about Keldeo and Bisharp or Weavile, after all, Knock Off + +2 Sucker Punch and Knock Off+Icicle Crash+Icicle Crash can all KO Keldeo. Same goes for offensive Lando-T variants (particularly Scarf) and LO Torn-T. But the fact that something as threatening offensively as these 4 can switch into such powerful threats is pretty remarkable in the first place.
And to me, that's what the difference bewteen A+ rank and S rank should be. In A+, you have the best offensive threats like Weavile and MLop and MZam, and the best defensive and supportive threats like Heatran and Ferrothorn. What puts a Pokemon above that and in S rank territory is not just excelling offensively, but also being capable defensively / supportively within the same moveset, or vice-versa (and of course, this has to be relative to the metagame, and whether or not said offensive/defensive capabilities are actually effective/useful in it). Torn-T and Lando-T's offensive sets, Keldeo, and yes, Latios, all fit these criteria, what with being very powerful offensive threats with greater defensive capabilities than your Bisharps and your Excadrills.

you make some good points but i have my gripes with latios which ill lay out.
first off, its resistances. we have fighting (can't really abuse this esp. if you're running hasty), fire (helpful against zard y and heatran), water (you have to face a 50-50 with azu's play rough and knock off, and ice coverage from keldeo and manaphy. scald burns + life orb its also kind of problematic), grass, electric (most electrics run hp ice which it doesn't sponge as well, thundurus has the potential knock off, and ofc thunder wave), and psychic (jirachi sometimes runs body slam or u-turn, hoopa switches in rather easily, other psychics like alakazam run shadow ball). plus we have immunities to ground (its a rather shaky switch since lando has uturn and knock off, garchomp has dragon moves and toxic, and gliscor carries knock off. many pokemon it resists can potentially cripple it with paralysis or burn chip damage or have coverage moves that can do a number on it.

secondly, while eq, hp fire, surf, grass knot, thunderbolt, hp fighting and such offer it many ways to get around its checks, it suffers from extreme four moveslot syndrome in order to do so.. in order to effectively run a lure move, you have to give up psyshock, defog or roost which are all very important moves to have. forgoing roost forgoes its longetivity meaning that scald burns, chip damage, stealth rocks and life orb hurt it much more. forgoing defog hurts its splashability a bit. forgoing psyshock is the least detrimental, but not being able to smash through special walls and fairies still hurts it. and not being able to smash through keldeo without resorting to draco meteor can still be hurtful. draco meteor is a strong nuke move, but steel types like jirachi, scizor, metagross, and heatran are very splashable and can easily switch and either heal (in the case of jirachi or scizor), set up rocks or swords dance, or pursuit trap it after draco's nasty side effect. fairies are still very much abundant and if you forgo psyshock for a lure move, latios' effectiveness will hurt a bit.

last but not least, dark spam and pursuit. bisharp's presence hinders how the opportunities can defog and most variants can switch in, and force it into a 50-50. so it isnt a 100% reliable defogger on that matter. manytrappers can switch into draco and leave it helpless. losing latios means losing its offensive capabilities as well. sure, latios can run moves to smack these guys in the face, but it has to forgo an important move to do so.

and i dont ever regret using latios? yea....i could say the same for every for almost every mon in A right now that has served me well.

many of the qualities like luring do have detriments that balance the positives. pursuit trappers being very abundant, the fact that it is very easy to take advantage of a latios after it has draco meteor'ed (this is a bigger problem in scarfed sets), the fact that steel types are very splashable and common (and the fact that to beat these mons, it has to forgo another important move) make it more of an A+ mon.

This also means that Torn-T should be S more for its LO set than anything, and that Lando-T's defensive set (great defensively+deals pretty solid damage) and dual dance set (legitimately terrifying offensively+can switch into a few things) are the sets that make it S rank. Which makes sense to me at least, since those are definitely the sets I've had most success with.

tornadus-t shouldn't deserve S for its inconsistency. i read posts supporting its rise that even admit that it does cost matches. i mentioned before, if you play pokemon, you play to win. there will be a time when you have to hit hurricane (against 2 good players, this can come down to a 1v1). and if it misses, tornadus t has failed. a pokemon in S should be reliable and consistent. its coverage, longetivity from regenerator, and pivoting abilities are balanced out by its unreliability. for this reason, its more A+ than S

And finally, Azumarill should be S rank. It's excellent offensively and well above-average defensively for an offensive Pokemon, so it easily fits my criteria for S rank. It absolutely thrives in an offensive metagame like this, not just becuase of how hard it is for offense to handle, but also becuase of how easily it fits on offensive teams, due to the fact that it checks a bunch of huge threats to offense. It's as good as if not better than Keldeo imo, mostly becuase of how important priority is for offense nowadays.

i second this. in fact, i think azu deserves S more than keldeo does. its defensive typing is better while still being able to check dark types. can lure steels with superpower and annoy switchins with knock off with its customizable 4th moveslot. priority is nice. hits hard with banded sets. and the possibility of a belly drum set is a very scary thought. very splashable. offers a ton with its power and priority offensively and its typing defensively and offensively. wallbreaking and tanky assault vest sets means it is very splashable. i agree move to S.

 

[nameless90]

Literally every Keldeo check is screwed over by Scald. This is not exclusive to Mega Venusaur, though I will admit that it dislikes burns particularly more than others.

The problem I see with Mega Venusaur rising is that is in trouble if its health reaches 40% because is pressured to heal with a base 80 Spe. This is the same problem that put Hippowdon a subrank lower from A+ to A (good recovery but pressured to use it due to low Spe).

Coverage moves have more to do with meta trends than gauging a target's viability. Fitting back-up offensive checks to mons like Manaphy and Mega Diancie is not that difficult to supply, and "surprise coverage" moves really are not as much of an issue with Mega Venusaur as it would a mon like Ferrothorn, especially considering Mega Venusaur is usually paired with mons that can compensate if it gets bopped by the wrong coverage move (there really is no argument to drop here based on "surprise coverage", as surprise coverage would screw over anyone.

The two examples show how Mega Venusaur can be overwhelmed by 2 monster normally checks quite well bar too much switch-ins & outs (= being at low health) or coverage which is uncommon but perfectly fine. Trying to kill a Manaphy at +3 is still a problem even in this meta because this Water type can run many moves and I don't know how it isn't a problem losing your Mega this way.

Amoonguss and Mega Venusaur are seperated by an entire rank, so a comparison between these mons in an attempt to nom a drop is not a very accurate way of discussing a mon's viability.

I'm not talking about Mega Venusaur dropping (I wrote that is fine in A rank where it lies now). I'm against a raise from A to A+.

getting walled by klefki and heatran? the fact that it can run viable options to actually beat these threats (eq and hp fire) is something it has over amoonguss. and besides, sometimes the switch is so obvious that a well seasoned player can pull a double switch to get the advantage or synthesis/leech seed on the switch. and even then, venusaur's job is to check top tier threats with its bulk, typing and STABs.

Mega Venusaur's job is to check top-tier threats with its bulk, but we are trying to show that has trouble keeping itself at high health due to its average recovery.

venusaur gets sleep powder so i mean the whole spore thing isn't exactly a huge thing amoonguss has above it. venusaur has thick fat, more bulk and offensive presence which are very nice advantages. thick fat means it can actually take keldeo, hp ice thundurus, and overheat mega manectric more reliably. belly drum azumarill can beat amoonguss with knock off, but it can't beat venusaur due to its generally higher speed (unless its jolly...but i mean....). venusaur does have more options meaning that it does have ways of getting around or annoying its checks (namely eq and knock off and a more powerful hp fire). the higher bulk also helps in many places as well with many top tier threats getting hard-walled by this mon. these advantages overweigh the negatives of costing a mega slot.

Sleep Powder has a low accuracy when compared to Spore but both become useless when used due to the "sleep clause" ==> when you use it, one moveslot become temporarily unusable. Amoonguss has 2 more weaknesses, is hit harder by Knock Off but can run Regenerator+Giga Drain+Black Sludge at the same time so is bulk is reasonably high for a "non Mega" defensive pokemon. Amoonguss is hindered by some traits and that's why it is B rank (now maybe B+ rank) but can be used as a replacement if you use your Mega slot for other purposes. Not only that, but Regenerator is so useful because Amoonguss is forced in&out often like Mega Venusaur allowing it to free a moveslot.

 

[Subjugator]

It's been a while since I posted in this thread, so why not?
Anyway, this may be an unpopular opinion but I kind of second Mega Venusaur rising to S-Rank. It's a brilliantly designed Pokemon that is the pinnacle of bulk, power, and decent defensive typing and a justifiable movepool to be put to good use. Defensive Mega Venusaur will probably survive a nuclear war and will be able to recover, making it an option on Stall and Defensively-oriented Teams. Offensive Mega Venusaur puts its Base 122 Special Attack to use. Even then, something with 80/123/120 bulk is nothing to undermine, combined with Thick Fat, it actually checks some Ice and Fire Types.
Mega Venusaur in all actuality doesn't mind being burned nearly as much as other bulky Grass Types like Tangrowth and Ferrothorn do. It is a good switch-in to status users, such as Breloom and Thundurus, and is one of the few non-Scarf Pokemon that can come in on a +4 Serperior and have a shot at winning. Should it carry Earthquake, Mega Venusaur no longer has a problem with Heatran.
Mega Venusaur, on the other hand, has many flaws, including low speed, and a slight case of 4 Moveslot Syndrome. The most major problem imo is what nameless90 said:

The problem I see with Mega Venusaur rising is that is in trouble if its health reaches 40% because is pressured to heal with a base 80 Spe. This is the same problem that put Hippowdon a subrank lower from A+ to A (good recovery but pressured to use it due to low Spe).

Overall, I'm basically neutral about the rise. I would enjoy to see more speculation on this, as its an interesting topic in my opinion as of now

 

[Giagantic]

Hoopa-U should absolutely NOT DROP, while its defenses are lackluster as many are aware and its speed not up to snuff, its special defense is pretty damn impressive with 80 hp and 130 spdef, and this isn't even talking about the fact that Hoopa-U is literally one of the hardest Pokemon to handle in OU. This is especially true for slower Balance/stall/semi-stall teams that are already strained by the offensiveness of the meta in addition to threats such as Kyurem-Black and Manaphy, who are already hard enough to deal with and now this monster appeared forcing you into making precarious predictions that could result in a Pokemon being 2hko'd or even 1hko'd. As a person that generally plays fatter styles Hoopa-U is one of the biggest problems I face both in terms of team-building but also in actual matches, if a pokemon can apply such extraordinarily large amount of pressure on your opponent, being almost assured of scoring a KO, hitting from both spectrum's with enough coverage and potential in its movepool to make most Uber's envious I personally don't see how we can even think about dropping this thing to A. All this and more are my reasons for staunchly rejecting the proposal to drop Hoopa-U, I feel that in comparison to every other A+ rank that it isn't any weaker in any shape.


Regarding the Rankings in General: In addition, it is in my opinion that we should not merely view the effectiveness of a pokemon from the perspective of the most dominant style for that skews the results and belittles other playstyles. In this case many view Hoopa-U as being weaker due to the meta being so offensive, and while that is true versus Offensive orientated teams, that is not true for the slower more methodical styles.

 

[squirtletheturtle]

ok, prior to my proposal for hoopa's drop, i didn't notice that the choice band set was currently in the works or was even viable (apologies don't slaughter me lol). i tried the set out, and i must say i was very impressed by its performance.

while it can't easily switch in to save its life, when given a free switch through a weak special attack, volt switch or u-turn, or foddering off a useless teammate, almost nothing bar defensive landorus-t and mandibuzz and maybe some other really defensive dark resist mons is safe from a hyperspace fury and its wide array of moves can easily slaughter the other pokemon. in other words, you will probably defeat something and if not, severely dent it.

the problem i found with it is switching in. my best chances of getting it in was with a really special weak move or voltturn. but the reward is massive once it did get a safe switch. pursuit trappers loved to prey on my hoopa after it used hyperspace fury. so my major gripes with its difficulty switching it and "weakness" to pursuit trapping and being revenge killed still apply, but i find that the reward it brings with its capabilities should give it A+ (not S tho...i saw someone said it deserved S lol)

in other words, i revoke my proposal to drop it for the potency of its choice band set.

 

[CharizardIsMeh]

Latios to S : disagree
Latios is an amazing Pokemon. First of all, the coveted 110 Speed that allowas him to outspeed lots of mons such as Keldeo, Mega Charizard Y, and Landorus laking Choice Scarf, a nice special bulk and an excellent Special Attack.It has access to Defog, an amazing move to remove EHs from the field, to reliable recovery in Roost/Recover to patch up recoil damge from Life Orb, to an extremely powerful stab in Draco Meteor with a power of 195 with STAB and to Psyshock to hit hard Chansey and other specially bulky mons. It can even boost its attacks with Calm Mind. And Latios's got useful resistances such as Fire, Water, Fight, Electric and Grass !

So, why it doesn't deserve S ?
For a simple reason : he's easily walled, and if Latios wants to lure its counters and KO them, it has to forget nor Psyshock (means that's he'll be overrelying on Draco Meteor to inflict damage), nor Roost (so he can't heal from passive damage and attacking damage, so he's worn down easily), nor Defog which is a superb move, and not using it is quite sad because you lose an opportunity to remove EHs.
And the coverage move is also hard to choose :
- EQ : great he will get rid of Heatran, but he'll need to use a Hasty or Naive nature which will dent his natural bulk, and the move is too weak otherwise most of the tame and won't get past Scizor, Ferro, etc. (and EQ doesn't even OHKO Bisharp lol 4 Atk Life Orb Latios Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 174-205 (64.2 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)
- HP Fire : great Ferro, Scizor, non-52 SpD Bisharp and Skarmory are on their toes, but you're desesperely walled by Heatran and AV/52 SpD Bisharp can survive it and OHKO.
- Surf : Useful against Heatran on CM sets, however you need +1 boost to get past other Steel types and you're walled by Ferro.

And there's too much common Pokemon that stop Latios. Tyranitar, Weavile, Bisharp, Clefable, Azumarill, Bulky M-Altaria, Specially Defensive Excadrill... You get the idea. And if you don't run the correct coverage move, you're walled by Steel-types. I'll talk about them below :
- Tyranitar, Weavile, and Bisharp : These 3 Dark types can play mind games with Latios, with Pursuit + Crunch, Pursuit + Icicle Crash, and PURSUIT + Sucker Punch + Knock Off, respectively. You see, if Latios switches, they can trap it, and if he stays in, they can KO it with STAB.
- Clefable : the most common version of Clef right now, CM Clef, is only 3HKOed by Psyshock, and can KO with Moonblast.
- Azumarill : Even if Latios resists Water, Azumarill can 50/5p it with Knock Off and Play Rough.
- Bulky M-Altaria : can survive a Psyshock and retaliate with Fairy-type Return or Hyper Voice.
- SpDef Exca : can take any attack Latios throwas at it bar EQ and severely dent it with Iron Head or EQ (thanks Mold Breaker).