Unpopular opinions

[Pikachu315111]

IMO that gimmick was executed pretty poorly due to practically forcing you to use the elemental monkeys which kind of defeats the purpose of making a gym your starter is weak to. I mean sure you didn't have to use them but otherwise the route give you a poor selection of Pokémon available to work with. Very unappealing and extremely weak options in Purrloin and Patrat (would anyone really use these...?) or Lillipup, which is an... okay Pokémon, but...

I always saw the first two Gyms in BW as "tutorial" Gyms. Striaton Gym was reinforcing the Starter Type triangle by showing you can't rely on your Starter to pull you through, you need more Pokemon and/or a Pokemon with type advantage (as a gift Pokemon). Nacrene Gym was a semi-tutorial as I think somewhere it was said the Normal-types were weak to Fighting-types and it just so happens the next route over has a Fighting-type you can capture. A little excessive? A bit, battling the rivals would teach you about type match-ups (as seen in XY) and they did cut it down to just the first Gym in BW2. Maybe instead of just gifting the Pokemon they should have required us to catch them, the elemental monkeys become available soon after anyway.

 

[stage7_4]

Were you a fan then of the fact that in Diamond and Pearl Volkner and Flint really didn't even have enough Pokemon to make a full team? I have to admit that seeing the electric gym leader have an Octillary and Ambipom was...something else at least.


Also, I have to say I liked Striaton's gimmick: subverting the "only use your starter Pokemon" crowd.

Yes, no, maybe so?

First of all, I waited for Platinum. While it was cool to have gym leaders with other pokemon, I think they only one that benefited from it was Candace's Medicham. But I could be wrong, I didn't actually play it. And while it was a neat side-effect, it still stemmed from bad game design (i.e. that the regional pokedex was messed up pretty bad). While it could make a comeback, I'd like to see something along the lines of the Colloseaum/XD bosses with their strategy teams (rain dance & swift swim/rain dish, doubles earthquake + protect, Slaking + Skill Swap) just without the "Please oh please don't kill your own Entei before I can catch it!" Doesn't have to be doubles either, though I wish that was used in-game more too, especially since it's the official format.

I did like the Striaton gimmick too. Sure it was somewhat subverted by monkey business, but it did hammer in type basics allowing for newbie training quickly, instead of a slow build throughout the entire game. Just wish they took this theme a bit further, although you could argue that Elsa was to hammer in "type advantage isn't everything" with her volt switch Emolga's.

In my theoretical "in game trains noobs for metagame" a Striaton gimmick would probably be the first gym again.

 

[EsurioXY]

In my theoretical "in game trains noobs for metagame" a Striaton gimmick would probably be the first gym again.

I actually enjoy that the base game is absurdly different from the competitive game. In fact I'd go so far as to continue into what I assume is an unpopular opinion: "I hope the games get effectively easier as time goes on in order to let people get to the 'end-game' and 'competitive' scenes faster/with less difficulty." This is tied to a wish that they provide a deeper experience 'online' in future installments where the community defines the meta in obvious ways, but with low barriers to entry (but that approaches wishlisting).


BTW what does your sig mean? Its fun to stay at the Omankeepzaam?

 

[Karxrida]

Making the games even easier than they already are is not a good idea. I wouldn't mind having a well-implemented difficulty setting so more hardcore gamers can enjoy themselves more while still pandering to filthy casual players, but making the games a cakewalk to beat will just turn away everyone since it'd be no fun.

 

[stage7_4]

BTW what does your sig mean? Its fun to stay at the Omankeepzaam?

Look very closely at the poses, then listen to The Village People.

 

[Kurona]

While it could make a comeback, I'd like to see something along the lines of the Colloseaum/XD bosses with their strategy teams (rain dance & swift swim/rain dish, doubles earthquake + protect, Slaking + Skill Swap) just without the "Please oh please don't kill your own Entei before I can catch it!" Doesn't have to be doubles either, though I wish that was used in-game more too, especially since it's the official format.

You saying that brings to mind why I like Colosseum the most and why I want to see a comeback of the sort of style it had - while the main games pretty much have to be easy, the GC games let them experiment with new ideas, going outside the formula and a more difficult setting - shadow Pokémon, strategic bosses, no gyms, barren region, limited selection... it was the sort of thing Pokémon Veterans could play with the mindset that it's a more difficult game without being the Battle Facilities - which, to be quite frank, can be very stupid with their restrictions and their evasion bullshit. It's not the same sort of challenge as an in-game run and nowhere near as fun; Colosseum was able to perfectly balance difficulty and restrictions with progress and enjoyability.

 

[Pikachu315111]

You saying that brings to mind why I like Colosseum the most and why I want to see a comeback of the sort of style it had - while the main games pretty much have to be easy, the GC games let them experiment with new ideas, going outside the formula and a more difficult setting - shadow Pokémon, strategic bosses, no gyms, barren region, limited selection... it was the sort of thing Pokémon Veterans could play with the mindset that it's a more difficult game without being the Battle Facilities - which, to be quite frank, can be very stupid with their restrictions and their evasion bullshit. It's not the same sort of challenge as an in-game run and nowhere near as fun; Colosseum was able to perfectly balance difficulty and restrictions with progress and enjoyability.

Hmm, but here's a major question you gotta think about: if they do bring back Colosseum, would they try to implement more Triple/Rotational Battles? One notable departure the Colosseum series did was having Double Battles be the norm instead of single. But that was back in Gen III when that mechanic was new. But since then we have 4 new battling styles: Triple, Rotational, Sky, and Inverse (or 5 if you count Horde). So if they do a Colosseum now would they stick with Doubles being the norm or would they somehow implement it so that all sorts of battling styles could be used? Orre is based on Arizona, part of the wild west, and there's no rules in the wild west. *puts on a cowboy's hat*

 

[Kurona]

Hmm, but here's a major question you gotta think about: if they do bring back Colosseum, would they try to implement more Triple/Rotational Battles? One notable departure the Colosseum series did was having Double Battles be the norm instead of single. But that was back in Gen III when that mechanic was new. But since then we have 4 new battling styles: Triple, Rotational, Sky, and Inverse (or 5 if you count Horde). So if they do a Colosseum now would they stick with Doubles being the norm or would they somehow implement it so that all sorts of battling styles could be used? Orre is based on Arizona, part of the wild west, and there's no rules in the wild west. *puts on a cowboy's hat*

Ehhhh... honestly, maybe it's just the pessimistic side to me, but if they brought back the Colosseum/XD style of games they'd probably just make it as easy as Gen 6 to sell more copies. Maybe we'd get really surprised but I doubt it.
Going under the assumption that they both decide to revive those games and not water them down, I can see them either going Doubles for nostalgia or using one of the recent triples/rotation as you suggested. Could go either way... if both pre-requisites I mentioned are met which I think there is unfortunately no chance of.

 

[Codraroll]

I'm actually a little puzzled that they're not pushing the Doubles format harder in-game, especially since it's the official format for competitive battling.

You see, the main problem with Singles is that every Pokémon has to pull its own weight. This means that the game favours offensive Pokémon which can defeat the opponent quickly, and heavily disfavours defensive ones. Since you have to backtrack a bit to heal, taking damage at all is a liability. It's no fun having to return to the Poké Center after every battle. Thus, it's better to end the battle without taking damage, than winning by wearing the opponent down. Or put another way: The longer time your Pokémon takes to defeat the opponent, the worse it is. There's also the time aspect itself, it's no fun to spend 20 turns defeating every random trainer by sponging attacks and Toxic-ing. Stall-fests are no fun, no matter how good your Pokémon are at it.

Support Pokémon are rarely seen too. I mean, in some situations moves like Simple Beam, Wide Guard or Helping Hand are awesome. When you're alone on the field, they're the exact opposite. A Pokémon in a Singles support role is entirely dependant on Baton Pass to do its job, and even when it does it well, the supported Pokémon is usually good enough to win the battle without help. The turns spent setting up with one Pokémon and then Baton Passing could have been better spent just dealing damage. The games are too easy for support to be required, and support is hard to pull off effectively anyway.

As such, people tend to disfavour defensive or supportive Pokémon in Singles. Pokémon that don't see use in Singles battles won't gain experience, fall even further below the power curve, and are therefore even more likely to be removed from the team in favour of more offensively-oriented Pokémon. The likes of Audino, Steelix or Shuckle are practically useless since they're judged by their ability to inflict direct damage, rather than the job they do well. In an apparent attempt to offset the inherent advantage of offensive play styles, Game Freak has kept boosting the defensive stats of defensive Pokémon way above what is the norm for offensive stats of offensive Pokémon. Have a look for yourself. Base 140+ offenses almost exclusively belong to Megas or Legendaries. Random stuff like Torkoal, Onix and Lairon sport defensive stats above 140. There are ten Pokémon with Defense above 180 and five above 200, but only five 'mons with Attack stats above 180 (all of which are "super formes"), and none above the 200 mark. Despite these Defense boosts, though, defensive behemoths remain near-useless unless they also have decent offensive stats.

However... in Doubles it's a different playing field. Suddenly, a Pokémon doesn't have to defeat an opponent directly to gain experience. It's enough that they stay on the field. Support moves help mediocre Pokémon become hard hitters. Defensive 'mons that stay on the field practically forever can be really useful, dishing out status moves while the teammate helps with direct damage. The impressive, but nowadays rarely seen, arsenals of support moves of some Pokémon are actually good in Doubles, but the games give us so few opportunities to utilize them. So few chances to learn the strategies. So few competent opponents to try them against (most Doubles trainers in the games sport only one set of two Pokémon). And even though they're useful in official competitive battles, actually training a competitive-level defensive or support 'mon is such a chore, since they have to gain Exp. mostly through Singles battles, or hitchhike on the back of the Exp. Share. Ironically enough, a good Doubles Pokémon will have to go through a Singles training regimen in order to become useful.

There's also the inherent issue of the physical/special spectrum, though. A physical offensive Pokémon may never have to use its Sp.Atk, but a physical defensive Pokémon will have to use its Sp.Def, and vice versa. Offensive 'mons dish out damage at the one side of the spectrum they specialize for. Defensive 'mons take damage from both sides, and will crumple like paper if they're too specialized. This simple issue means defensive Pokémon will never be just as good as their offensive counterparts, but either way I believe they would pull their weight a lot better in a Doubles-oriented game than in Singles.

 

[Oriolous]

I'm actually a little puzzled that they're not pushing the Doubles format harder in-game, especially since it's the official format for competitive battling.

You see, the main problem with Singles is that every Pokémon has to pull its own weight. This means that the game favours offensive Pokémon which can defeat the opponent quickly, and heavily disfavours defensive ones. Since you have to backtrack a bit to heal, taking damage at all is a liability. It's no fun having to return to the Poké Center after every battle. Thus, it's better to end the battle without taking damage, than winning by wearing the opponent down. Or put another way: The longer time your Pokémon takes to defeat the opponent, the worse it is. There's also the time aspect itself, it's no fun to spend 20 turns defeating every random trainer by sponging attacks and Toxic-ing. Stall-fests are no fun, no matter how good your Pokémon are at it.

Support Pokémon are rarely seen too. I mean, in some situations moves like Simple Beam, Wide Guard or Helping Hand are awesome. When you're alone on the field, they're the exact opposite. A Pokémon in a Singles support role is entirely dependant on Baton Pass to do its job, and even when it does it well, the supported Pokémon is usually good enough to win the battle without help. The turns spent setting up with one Pokémon and then Baton Passing could have been better spent just dealing damage. The games are too easy for support to be required, and support is hard to pull off effectively anyway.

As such, people tend to disfavour defensive or supportive Pokémon in Singles. Pokémon that don't see use in Singles battles won't gain experience, fall even further below the power curve, and are therefore even more likely to be removed from the team in favour of more offensively-oriented Pokémon. The likes of Audino, Steelix or Shuckle are practically useless since they're judged by their ability to inflict direct damage, rather than the job they do well. In an apparent attempt to offset the inherent advantage of offensive play styles, Game Freak has kept boosting the defensive stats of defensive Pokémon way above what is the norm for offensive stats of offensive Pokémon. Have a look for yourself. Base 140+ offenses almost exclusively belong to Megas or Legendaries. Random stuff like Torkoal, Onix and Lairon sport defensive stats above 140. There are ten Pokémon with Defense above 180 and five above 200, but only five 'mons with Attack stats above 180 (all of which are "super formes"), and none above the 200 mark. Despite these Defense boosts, though, defensive behemoths remain near-useless unless they also have decent offensive stats.

However... in Doubles it's a different playing field. Suddenly, a Pokémon doesn't have to defeat an opponent directly to gain experience. It's enough that they stay on the field. Support moves help mediocre Pokémon become hard hitters. Defensive 'mons that stay on the field practically forever can be really useful, dishing out status moves while the teammate helps with direct damage. The impressive, but nowadays rarely seen, arsenals of support moves of some Pokémon are actually good in Doubles, but the games give us so few opportunities to utilize them. So few chances to learn the strategies. So few competent opponents to try them against (most Doubles trainers in the games sport only one set of two Pokémon). And even though they're useful in official competitive battles, actually training a competitive-level defensive or support 'mon is such a chore, since they have to gain Exp. mostly through Singles battles, or hitchhike on the back of the Exp. Share. Ironically enough, a good Doubles Pokémon will have to go through a Singles training regimen in order to become useful.

There's also the inherent issue of the physical/special spectrum, though. A physical offensive Pokémon may never have to use its Sp.Atk, but a physical defensive Pokémon will have to use its Sp.Def, and vice versa. Offensive 'mons dish out damage at the one side of the spectrum they specialize for. Defensive 'mons take damage from both sides, and will crumple like paper if they're too specialized. This simple issue means defensive Pokémon will never be just as good as their offensive counterparts, but either way I believe they would pull their weight a lot better in a Doubles-oriented game than in Singles.

And honestly, this is why I wish the official format was Single battles, even if it was 4v4 rather than my preferred 6v6. The games themselves condition us to play Singles. How many of us actually know and understand Triples/Rotations?

*looks to random guy raising his hand* No, put your hand down. You don't know shit.

If we had a main series game (not THE main series game like XY/ORAS, but A main series handheld game) that was Doubles oriented much like Colosseum, then I'd actually be more willing to work for a VGC team.

That being said, I still want a VGC team, but since I don't KNOW anything thanks to being conditioned for Singles, I need help making Doubles Pokemon, and even more help learning how they work.

 

[Pikachu315111]

Codraroll:
With Doubles being the official VGC format the game really should work on having an equal amount of singles and doubles (with Triples and Rotation thrown in to spice things up, maybe have Sky and Inverse by battle facilities or something). That said I do understand why a lot of the game is Single. It's easier to understand, faster (since most players will just use offensive Pokemon on their team), and the game's message of bonding with your Pokemon works better when there's one Pokemon out instead of two or three (you're never judged by your entire team, whenever a NPC examines your Pokemon they only examine one that you usually choose or have first in your party). It's a tricky balance where you don't want to slow down the game but if you want to encourage competitive battling you should put at least equal focus on the format VGC uses. Also we have other problems such as what do you do with important battles like League (Gym, Elite Four, Champion), Rivals, and the Villain team/antagonistic force.

Oriolous:
Or maybe VGC can have multiple tournament brackets: Single, Double, Triple, & Rotational. They're not live tournaments, they're online so why not have multiple tournaments?

What do you want to know about Triple/Rotational Battle? While I don't claim to be an expert I know the basics and then some.

 

[Karxrida]

Doubles is actually way faster than Singles and more offensive (compare VGC/Doubles OU to OU and you'll see many more successful teams based on stall or semi-stall in the latter), it's just that the story does not foster any kind of defensive play because it's slow as fuck, makes any sort of grinding a chore, and is just boring. It's much easier to exploit the AI, overlevel a couple of things, and abuse and type chart than win every game with Toxic/PP stall.

The likely reason for Singles being the default is because of Grandfather Clause and simplicity.

 

[flargananddingle]

Or maybe VGC can have multiple tournament brackets: Single, Double, Triple, & Rotational. They're not live tournaments, they're online so why not have multiple tournaments?

Most vgc events are in fact live tournaments

 

[JES]

Mega evolution corner, Maron was talking about it and Alain just walked out of scene as we see Mega slowbro anihilate mega Charizard X nearly effortlessly with psychic.

Managed to find it on Youtube. He actually seemed far less upset than I imagine I'd be!

 

[stage7_4]

How many of us actually know and understand Triples/Rotations?

Aw, Triples is my favorite in the Maison. For one, it is the only format that does allow a team of six, and it isn't that hard to wrap your head around if you think of it as two "core" pokemon in the center and 4 supporting teammates. Plus it is the format least likely to get you RNG/luck screwed, since a full team of 6 is hard to fall to one singular element of bad luck.

Drawback is that the battles take forever.

I can't defend Rotations though. The only strategy I seem to run in the Maison is Dual Screens and Mega Kangaskhan. In theory it would be like a regular fight but without switching costing you a turn, but in practice it's a whole other can of worms.

Which is why I feel both need to be explored more.

 

[Karxrida]

Doesn't Triples (and/or Rotation) also kind of kill the framerate in X and Y and ORAS? I'd image that Game Freak wouldn't want to focus on something that showcases their inability to optimize the hardware, especially when Smash for 3DS makes them look like chumps.

 

[stage7_4]

Doesn't Triples (and/or Rotation) also kind of kill the framerate in X and Y and ORAS? I'd image that Game Freak wouldn't want to focus on something that showcases their inability to optimize the hardware, especially when Smash for 3DS makes them look like chumps.

I'd be lying if I said it wasn't an infrequent annoyance, but I hardly find deal breaking. Kind of a weak reason to hold two formats back forever due to hardware limits.

Plus isn't it the goal of a new generation to fix the hardware issues of the past? And I'm hardly asking for "focus," just more fair representation of all formats presented. I feel these have potential and I'd rather not see them drift into obscurity like the Wonder Launcher or even the way Sky Battles are heading. Inverse as well, although that one seems to be holding on, maybe.

 

[Gabe]

I like the mechanics in the game (natures, individual values, hidden power, effort values, ability ratio, gender ratio, breeding, etc) and do not think they need to be changed. I see a lot of posters saying that these things should be scrapped but I think it would ruin a core aspect of the franchise - trading. Pokemon is a game that encourages social interactions and diluting the species mechanics makes the game entirely too easy and discourages trading. Why trade when you can get anything yourself? Gen 6 made it nearly that easy already. I don't think it needs to get any further. Complaining about it is just laziness.

Now, the one thing that should be improved on is the addition of past gen event-only moves to movepools. Extremespeed should be part of Zigzagoon's level-up moves, Wish for Chansey, Baton pass for Zapdos, etc. Those things are nearly impossible to attain and even harder to get with a desirable nature & IV spread.

 

[Kurona]

I like the mechanics in the game (natures, individual values, hidden power, effort values, ability ratio, gender ratio, breeding, etc) and do not think they need to be changed. I see a lot of posters saying that these things should be scrapped but I think it would ruin a core aspect of the franchise - trading. Pokemon is a game that encourages social interactions and diluting the species mechanics makes the game entirely too easy and discourages trading. Why trade when you can get anything yourself? Gen 6 made it nearly that easy already. I don't think it needs to get any further. Complaining about it is just laziness.

Now, the one thing that should be improved on is the addition of past gen event-only moves to movepools. Extremespeed should be part of Zigzagoon's level-up moves, Wish for Chansey, Baton pass for Zapdos, etc. Those things are nearly impossible to attain and even harder to get with a desirable nature & IV spread.

Nnnnnno, it's not laziness, it's just I don't wanna spend the better part of a month cycling up and down the Battle Resort in the hope that this 23rd egg will have the exact IVs I want. That's not lazy, that's me wanting to do something much better with my time that's not tedious and really I'm not getting anything real for or contributing to anything real. I'm fine with you liking IVs but please don't accuse anyone who doesn't agree with that notion of just being lazy because that's just the weakest argument. It wouldn't really ruin trading either if it disappeared; the competitive side of Pokémon is microscopic compared to people who don't even know what an IV is. And it's not even like those are the only things worth trading for; hidden abilities, natures, EV training, even different Poké Ball combinations - you talked about encouraging social interaction; well I've had a lot more social interaction since I stopped caring about IVs.

 

[Gabe]

Nnnnnno, it's not laziness, it's just I don't wanna spend the better part of a month cycling up and down the Battle Resort in the hope that this 23rd egg will have the exact IVs I want. That's not lazy, that's me wanting to do something much better with my time that's not tedious and really I'm not getting anything real for or contributing to anything real. I'm fine with you liking IVs but please don't accuse anyone who doesn't agree with that notion of just being lazy because that's just the weakest argument. It wouldn't really ruin trading either if it disappeared; the competitive side of Pokémon is microscopic compared to people who don't even know what an IV is. And it's not even like those are the only things worth trading for; hidden abilities, natures, EV training, even different Poké Ball combinations - you talked about encouraging social interaction; well I've had a lot more social interaction since I stopped caring about IVs.

Uhh, it takes an hour tops to get a desirable spread lol.

 

[Lady Vader]

Here's one: I actually enjoy Sinnoh's layout. It just felt dense, like there is something around every corner, something that I felt was lacking about Unova (Black 2 and White 2 actually helped a lot, to be fair) and Kalos was even worse (and may never be fixed unless Sun and Moon pull off a Johto/Kanto). Hell, my only real complain with HMs was Defog since it was useless at the time (and even now, it still isn't good playing through the game, just competitively).
Of course, Platinum was my first actual experience exploring a region, so I might be a little bit biased.

Nnnnnno, it's not laziness, it's just I don't wanna spend the better part of a month cycling up and down the Battle Resort in the hope that this 23rd egg will have the exact IVs I want.

It doesn't take the better part of a month if you are only on your 23rd egg (that's more of a night of breeding). That's more of your 323rd egg. And that's not an egg-aggeration.

 

[Kurona]

Uhh, it takes an hour tops to get a desirable spread lol.

An hour tops to get one Pokémon. And then another hour to get another. One more hour for a third. Six hours for a full team; but that's not enough, competitive is changing constantly. I'll need to breed a brand new team; and that's not to mention I don't wanna be using the exact same team all the time, I'll be wanting a few more teams and then those'll be outdated in a matter of weeks...
And that's on top of training, egg move chaining, getting BP for items and TMs, obtaining hidden abilities; let's not even get started on SRing legendaries. A ridiculous amount of work and time goes into getting a team - my point here is that this amount of time means you really, really can't call anyone who doesn't want to get into it lazy. That accusation in itself is lazy.

 

[Oriolous]

Uhh, it takes an hour tops to get a desirable spread lol.

It took me literally 3 months to get a pentaperfect Pokemon with a 6 IV Ditto and 5 IV parent. And such a long spread has occured for several of my breeding projects. There have also been several instances of two 6 IV parents trying to get a 6 IV child that takes more than a month. If it only ever takes you an hour, good for you. But for a lot of us, it takes a lot longer.

Plus that isn't including the OTHER five Pokemon for a team, plus the training and getting the items, some of which being BP items only...

Yeah. It takes a lot longer to get a team.

 

[Gabe]

An hour tops to get one Pokémon. And then another hour to get another. One more hour for a third. Six hours for a full team; but that's not enough, competitive is changing constantly. I'll need to breed a brand new team; and that's not to mention I don't wanna be using the exact same team all the time, I'll be wanting a few more teams and then those'll be outdated in a matter of weeks...
And that's on top of training, egg move chaining, getting BP for items and TMs, obtaining hidden abilities; let's not even get started on SRing legendaries. A ridiculous amount of work and time goes into getting a team - my point here is that this amount of time means you really, really can't call anyone who doesn't want to get into it lazy. That accusation in itself is lazy.

It does not take long to breed or RNG abuse something. Hacking is lazy.

 

[Lady Vader]

It took me literally 3 months to get a pentaperfect Pokemon with a 6 IV Ditto and 5 IV parent. And such a long spread has occured for several of my breeding projects. There have also been several instances of two 6 IV parents trying to get a 6 IV child that takes more than a month. If it only ever takes you an hour, good for you. But for a lot of us, it takes a lot longer.

Plus that isn't including the OTHER five Pokemon for a team, plus the training and getting the items, some of which being BP items only...

Yeah. It takes a lot longer to get a team.

That's honestly just an absurd amount of bad luck. I mean, that's about 1 in 5-6 eggs (baring ability).