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Metagame NP: RU Stage 15: Gucci Gucci (Honchkrow RU, Amoonguss and Quagsire OU)
- Thread starter atomicllamas
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My ladder run was pretty boring save for a few games, and the suspect arguments are pretty dry, so I'm not too interested in entertaining them, but here are some things that I want to share that I liked using during my suspect run:
Glalie @ Glalitite
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Freeze-Dry
- Double-Edge
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Ice Shard
HP Fire Glalie is a growing meta trend to lure in Durant and isn't unique in and of itself, what's different about this Glalie is that it runs max SpA. There are two types of Pokemon that can check Glalie: the first is bulky Steels such as Bronzong/Registeel and the second is bulky Waters such as Alomomola and Slowking. Running Max SpA in tandem with Freeze Dry (also gives a nice boost to HP Fire, which lets it 2HKO Escavalier after SR) eliminates the second group sans some obscure Slowking. With max SpA, Glalie can 2HKO SpD Alomomola, 252/0 Slowking, and Blastoise, which it would otherwise get 3HKOs on. Aside from not being able to truck Registeel with Earthquake, I've found this Glalie to be far better at wallbreaking since it's significantly less easy to check defensively. Even without Attack investment, Double-Edge is still pretty strong and will 2HKO most neutral targets without much trouble. There are some KOs that uninvested Double-Edge misses out on such on offensive Meloetta after two SR switch-ins, though. The last slot was pretty much filler, but with this thing running HP Fire, it will naturally miss out on Speed ties with Flygon, so I wanted to be able to pick it off with assurance when needed. If Durant gets banned, then Super Fang + Explosion can replace HP Fire and Ice Shard to make it even more dangerous.
Weezing @ Black Sludge
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 212 SpD / 44 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Will-O-Wisp
- Sludge Bomb
- Flamethrower
This is probably the best way to run Weezing in the current meta. With Venusaur and Flygon around, Toxic Spikes aren't as useful as they once were, and Venusaur's presence in general is bothersome for a lot of defensive builds. Max SpD Weezing allows it to hard check Venusaur quite well, in addition to other Grass-types and offensive Diancie. Taunt + Will-O-Wisp lets it break down a lot of slower defensive builds, especially those that rely on Alomomola and Diancie (so almost all of them, basically). Taunt Weezing can also prevent Steelix, Diancie, Bronzong, Registeel, Druddigon, and other slow dudes from setting up SR, which is really useful as well. With Will-O-Wisp and it's high defense, it can still check the same physical attackers it usually checks, just less efficiently; on the flip-side, this Weezing variant doesn't forfeit free turns nearly as often. Not much to say for the attacking moves, although if you're not running it with Alomomola for some reason, then swapping out Flamethrower for Pain Split isn't a bad idea. Sludge Bomb is kind of important so that Weezing can do its job of spreading status and pressuring Wish Passers/Clerics. Flamethrower is more or less auxiliary and not always imperative for Weezing to succeed at accomplishing its goals. The Speed EVs is for minimum Speed Alomomola, although running a little extra Speed creep will do you some good.
Glalie @ Glalitite
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Freeze-Dry
- Double-Edge
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Ice Shard
HP Fire Glalie is a growing meta trend to lure in Durant and isn't unique in and of itself, what's different about this Glalie is that it runs max SpA. There are two types of Pokemon that can check Glalie: the first is bulky Steels such as Bronzong/Registeel and the second is bulky Waters such as Alomomola and Slowking. Running Max SpA in tandem with Freeze Dry (also gives a nice boost to HP Fire, which lets it 2HKO Escavalier after SR) eliminates the second group sans some obscure Slowking. With max SpA, Glalie can 2HKO SpD Alomomola, 252/0 Slowking, and Blastoise, which it would otherwise get 3HKOs on. Aside from not being able to truck Registeel with Earthquake, I've found this Glalie to be far better at wallbreaking since it's significantly less easy to check defensively. Even without Attack investment, Double-Edge is still pretty strong and will 2HKO most neutral targets without much trouble. There are some KOs that uninvested Double-Edge misses out on such on offensive Meloetta after two SR switch-ins, though. The last slot was pretty much filler, but with this thing running HP Fire, it will naturally miss out on Speed ties with Flygon, so I wanted to be able to pick it off with assurance when needed. If Durant gets banned, then Super Fang + Explosion can replace HP Fire and Ice Shard to make it even more dangerous.
Weezing @ Black Sludge
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 212 SpD / 44 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Will-O-Wisp
- Sludge Bomb
- Flamethrower
This is probably the best way to run Weezing in the current meta. With Venusaur and Flygon around, Toxic Spikes aren't as useful as they once were, and Venusaur's presence in general is bothersome for a lot of defensive builds. Max SpD Weezing allows it to hard check Venusaur quite well, in addition to other Grass-types and offensive Diancie. Taunt + Will-O-Wisp lets it break down a lot of slower defensive builds, especially those that rely on Alomomola and Diancie (so almost all of them, basically). Taunt Weezing can also prevent Steelix, Diancie, Bronzong, Registeel, Druddigon, and other slow dudes from setting up SR, which is really useful as well. With Will-O-Wisp and it's high defense, it can still check the same physical attackers it usually checks, just less efficiently; on the flip-side, this Weezing variant doesn't forfeit free turns nearly as often. Not much to say for the attacking moves, although if you're not running it with Alomomola for some reason, then swapping out Flamethrower for Pain Split isn't a bad idea. Sludge Bomb is kind of important so that Weezing can do its job of spreading status and pressuring Wish Passers/Clerics. Flamethrower is more or less auxiliary and not always imperative for Weezing to succeed at accomplishing its goals. The Speed EVs is for minimum Speed Alomomola, although running a little extra Speed creep will do you some good.
I have used stall throghout my entire run and i also used spdef weezing and i have to agree that it is very good, i've seen some people taking a liking to garbodor recently and i'm not sure why since weezing barely sees any play and is, arguably, the better alternative almost all the time, although i can see garb being used on super offensive teams but not for the reasons and on team archetypes that i see it being used at the moment.
I think that sub wisp rotom is also a pretty dang cool set at the moment to use on offense that is barely seeing any play, after using rotom fan for a bit i feel as though its ability to counter durant isnt enough for you to justify using it since everything else it's supposed to do is done better by something else and regular rotom matches up well against the sudden rise of stall teams on the suspect ladder for whatever reason(i blame tehy going 40-3 or something ridiculous), also houndoom/rupt are virtually non-existant from what i've seen(something i fail to understand as well), rotom also complements hoopa/melo nicely since people usually rely on pursuit trappers as their answers to both these pokemon and those can be crippled by rotom; don't really feel the need to post a set here as sub wisp rotom is the standard anyways.
O yeah, i feel like rocky helmet druddigon also deserves a shoutout here, it's one of the best stops for scarf durant(any scarfer, really) on offense, and is really damn reliable at that job, you can pair it with something like virizion which just discourages durant/fletch/emboar from revenge killing you since having these pokemon weakened is usually good for something else on your team(like a durant of your own!).
So yeah, reqs were p easy since the ladder isn't ready for stall at all, use stall if you want easy requirements, peace!
I think that sub wisp rotom is also a pretty dang cool set at the moment to use on offense that is barely seeing any play, after using rotom fan for a bit i feel as though its ability to counter durant isnt enough for you to justify using it since everything else it's supposed to do is done better by something else and regular rotom matches up well against the sudden rise of stall teams on the suspect ladder for whatever reason(i blame tehy going 40-3 or something ridiculous), also houndoom/rupt are virtually non-existant from what i've seen(something i fail to understand as well), rotom also complements hoopa/melo nicely since people usually rely on pursuit trappers as their answers to both these pokemon and those can be crippled by rotom; don't really feel the need to post a set here as sub wisp rotom is the standard anyways.
O yeah, i feel like rocky helmet druddigon also deserves a shoutout here, it's one of the best stops for scarf durant(any scarfer, really) on offense, and is really damn reliable at that job, you can pair it with something like virizion which just discourages durant/fletch/emboar from revenge killing you since having these pokemon weakened is usually good for something else on your team(like a durant of your own!).
So yeah, reqs were p easy since the ladder isn't ready for stall at all, use stall if you want easy requirements, peace!
Just finished getting reqs so I thought I'd post some of my thoughts here. I think other people have summed up my position on Durant previously very well so I'll keep it brief. Its blazing speed and immense hitting power are unparalleled in the tier, especially in tandem with one mon, it has quite a few good sets it can choose from so it has versatility and each one has at least decent match up against all playstyles and incredibly good match up against at least one. All of this together makes Durant pretty overwhelming and unduly constraining on how people build and play in RU.
Backing up what EonX and lighthouses have said regarding some mons that deserve attention. AV Tangrowth was great for me during this ladder run (I used EonX's RMT) and fulfills a highly important defensive role against Ground and Water types and can stomach a ton of neutral hits, while still having offensive utility and Regenerator to top it all off. I've always liked Druddigon, paricularly the Rocky Helmet set which I built an RMT around during the Tyrantrum suspect, and is just a great physical blanket check which discourages opponents from going for contact moves or makes them pay a hefty price for doing so, and its typing gives it useful resistances to water, grass, electric and fire type attacks and its movepool gives it some great options like Dragon Tail, Stealth Rock, Glare and Sucker Punch.
Backing up what EonX and lighthouses have said regarding some mons that deserve attention. AV Tangrowth was great for me during this ladder run (I used EonX's RMT) and fulfills a highly important defensive role against Ground and Water types and can stomach a ton of neutral hits, while still having offensive utility and Regenerator to top it all off. I've always liked Druddigon, paricularly the Rocky Helmet set which I built an RMT around during the Tyrantrum suspect, and is just a great physical blanket check which discourages opponents from going for contact moves or makes them pay a hefty price for doing so, and its typing gives it useful resistances to water, grass, electric and fire type attacks and its movepool gives it some great options like Dragon Tail, Stealth Rock, Glare and Sucker Punch.
Durant is banned
Feel free to use this thread to discuss the metagame post durant. The Immortal since I was SAVAGELY kicked from OM staff room convo I'm gonna tag you here to please make Durant illegal on the RU ladder and move it from RU to BL2 in the team builder. Thanks :)!
Feel free to use this thread to discuss the metagame post durant. The Immortal since I was SAVAGELY kicked from OM staff room convo I'm gonna tag you here to please make Durant illegal on the RU ladder and move it from RU to BL2 in the team builder. Thanks :)!
people still keep using durant and keep getting free wins. PS needs to update asap, haha.
Though in other news, I'm expecting more team diversity as you are no longer limited by durant destroying your team if you mispredict its set. (axe head smashy dino next imo.). Also, anyone seeing the rise of potential psychics?
Though in other news, I'm expecting more team diversity as you are no longer limited by durant destroying your team if you mispredict its set. (axe head smashy dino next imo.). Also, anyone seeing the rise of potential psychics?
No because there are still a ton of hard dark type hitters, glalie should get a boost though
If anything fairies should pick up popularity, more so Diancie, Granbull, and Aromatisse (Sorry Mawile) due to the fact that one of there best offensive counters is gone. Now this doesn't mean that Fairies will rule the meta because we still have things like Mega Steelix and Registeel flying around but there burst of life my influence stall a bit more which gained quite a bit of popularity during the suspect ladder
One Pokemon I expect to get a pretty nice boost in popularity is Assault Vest Tangrowth. Durant was by far the most dangerous offensive Pokemon it let in and it acts as a fantastic check to most special attackers in the tier as well as the typical Mega Steelix + bulky Water core that seems to be extremely common. Aside from that, here's a few offensive Pokemon I expect to get better with Durant being banned:
Mega Glalie just gets better and better. One more offensive check to it is gone and the special set that Spirit posted a few days ago is looking mighty fine without Durant around to pressure its team. HP Fire isn't as necessary anymore, thus opening the door to stuff like Super Fang, Explosion, and Spikes to let it Speed tie opposing Flygons.
While Durant could never hope to switch into Delphox, it was able to easily revenge kill sets that lacked a Sub. With Durant gone, Delphox becomes the fastest mon in the tier that's worth using a Choice Scarf on and Calm Mind / Choice Specs sets lose a revenge killer which is never a bad thing to have happen to you. Obviously it struggles with Pursuit being so common in the tier and Sneasel is still an ass to non-Scarf sets, but Delphox is definitely improved some with Durant gone.
Much like Delphox, Virizion appreciates having one less thing to worry about revenge killing it. Virizion wasn't exactly bad or underrated during the Durant meta, but it certainly appreciates not having to deal with a powerful wallbreaker that also revenge kills it naturally. I'm surprised Calm Mind sets aren't as common with Pursuit being so useful right now, but maybe that'll change. (SD is still better)
One of the main reasons (I feel at least) to not use Manectric previously was because of Durant and the fact Jolteon could outspeed it naturally. While Manectric still has issues with Dugtrio, Sneasel, and Virizion, it does sit just in front of Delphox and greatly appreciates Durant not being around anymore. It should not have dropped to NU in the first place and I think it has a good chance of rising back to RU with Durant gone.
Every non-Scarf Flygon set just got a lot better with Durant gone. In particular, the support Defog set got loads better as Durant could set up on it without fear of anything to speak of really while Life Orb and Choice Band sets fall under the category of Delphox and Virizion; one less revenge killer to worry about. An already amazing Pokemon just got a good bit better
And with that, we have two Pokemon that will likely change in their role greatly:
With Durant gone, Choice Scarf Emboar loses a lot of its appeal imo. Being the slowest Scarfer in the tier and unable to outspeed the likes of Jolteon and Aerodactyl (Accelgor too, but it lives a hit from that) I think Emboar will transition from being a revenge killer (mainly for Durant) to a powerful wallbreaker. Choice Band Flare Blitz is something you don't want to switch into from this thing if you can help it and all possible switch-ins are 2HKOed by Superpower or Wild Charge respectively. It still has Sucker Punch to circumvent the Speed problem, but being choice-locked into that is unappealing, which may make Heavy Slam a good niche 4th move to completely trash Diancie or Sleep Talk to absorb Spore and Sleep Powder from Amoonguss and Venusaur respectively
And finally, Rotom-Fan. Rotom-Fan in general loses a LOT of its appeal as it was easily the best defensive check to Durant that the tier had. While it is still a nice soft check to Fighting-types and Mega Steelix, they are simply not as hard to deal with as Durant was. It may still be viable for specific teams as a blanket check for Fighting-types and Mega Steelix, but there's no doubt that it won't see nearly as much usage without Durant around.
Mega Glalie just gets better and better. One more offensive check to it is gone and the special set that Spirit posted a few days ago is looking mighty fine without Durant around to pressure its team. HP Fire isn't as necessary anymore, thus opening the door to stuff like Super Fang, Explosion, and Spikes to let it Speed tie opposing Flygons.
While Durant could never hope to switch into Delphox, it was able to easily revenge kill sets that lacked a Sub. With Durant gone, Delphox becomes the fastest mon in the tier that's worth using a Choice Scarf on and Calm Mind / Choice Specs sets lose a revenge killer which is never a bad thing to have happen to you. Obviously it struggles with Pursuit being so common in the tier and Sneasel is still an ass to non-Scarf sets, but Delphox is definitely improved some with Durant gone.
Much like Delphox, Virizion appreciates having one less thing to worry about revenge killing it. Virizion wasn't exactly bad or underrated during the Durant meta, but it certainly appreciates not having to deal with a powerful wallbreaker that also revenge kills it naturally. I'm surprised Calm Mind sets aren't as common with Pursuit being so useful right now, but maybe that'll change. (SD is still better)
One of the main reasons (I feel at least) to not use Manectric previously was because of Durant and the fact Jolteon could outspeed it naturally. While Manectric still has issues with Dugtrio, Sneasel, and Virizion, it does sit just in front of Delphox and greatly appreciates Durant not being around anymore. It should not have dropped to NU in the first place and I think it has a good chance of rising back to RU with Durant gone.
Every non-Scarf Flygon set just got a lot better with Durant gone. In particular, the support Defog set got loads better as Durant could set up on it without fear of anything to speak of really while Life Orb and Choice Band sets fall under the category of Delphox and Virizion; one less revenge killer to worry about. An already amazing Pokemon just got a good bit better
And with that, we have two Pokemon that will likely change in their role greatly:
With Durant gone, Choice Scarf Emboar loses a lot of its appeal imo. Being the slowest Scarfer in the tier and unable to outspeed the likes of Jolteon and Aerodactyl (Accelgor too, but it lives a hit from that) I think Emboar will transition from being a revenge killer (mainly for Durant) to a powerful wallbreaker. Choice Band Flare Blitz is something you don't want to switch into from this thing if you can help it and all possible switch-ins are 2HKOed by Superpower or Wild Charge respectively. It still has Sucker Punch to circumvent the Speed problem, but being choice-locked into that is unappealing, which may make Heavy Slam a good niche 4th move to completely trash Diancie or Sleep Talk to absorb Spore and Sleep Powder from Amoonguss and Venusaur respectively
And finally, Rotom-Fan. Rotom-Fan in general loses a LOT of its appeal as it was easily the best defensive check to Durant that the tier had. While it is still a nice soft check to Fighting-types and Mega Steelix, they are simply not as hard to deal with as Durant was. It may still be viable for specific teams as a blanket check for Fighting-types and Mega Steelix, but there's no doubt that it won't see nearly as much usage without Durant around.
i mean i cant speak for others, but me personally, i try to avoid the special set as much as possible because your main offensive stab being focus blast sucks :/ some mons like meloetta use it as useful coverage, but its not the same because giga and coverage for virizon are far weaker and you can't really avoid focus blast a lot of the time. i get sometimes this cant be avoided and mons can still be good with a low acc main stab (tornt in ou comes to mind especially), but virizon has a perfectly good physical set as well that doesnt rely on any low accuracy moves besides an occasional stone edge.
Much like Delphox, Virizion appreciates having one less thing to worry about revenge killing it. Virizion wasn't exactly bad or underrated during the Durant meta, but it certainly appreciates not having to deal with a powerful wallbreaker that also revenge kills it naturally. I'm surprised Calm Mind sets aren't as common with Pursuit being so useful right now, but maybe that'll change. (SD is still better)
gee, another suspected mon ended up getting banned, how shocking. these suspect tests are just formalities at this point, has anything suspected actually avoided a ban? although some bans were probably deserving, this pseudo auto ban is kind of ridiculous IMO. how do we define what's even ban worth anymore? something like Durant, who had switchins, plenty of checks/revenge killers, no priority, and was extremely set dependent gets the near unanimous boot. meanwhile shit like hitmonlee, medicham, exploud decimate half the tier with resisted moves and remain "unsuspected". the council or w/e smogon calls it now has great ability to shape the metagame in the tier by cherrypicking suspected mons, not an inherent problem, but one that can become a problem if the hivemind just keeps banning everything. lets keep banning every half competent offensive mon because "es too stonk" and see what happens. meanwhile the tier has good regen mons up the ass, and shit like mega Lix, mega Dino, bronzong and Reginazi which effortlessly walls like 3/4 of the tier. none of which will likely get suspected. stall is the future, and if you enjoy playing stall, then hell, lets keep banning everything. but if you shudder at the thought of elongated 6v6 drudging fuckfests, perhaps it is time to break from the status quo of suspecting = instantaneous banning.
Tyrantrum and Mega Sableye got suspected and not banned also the thing about Durant was that it could outspeed all of its checks if it wanted to with scarf. another thing that was so deadly. Durant had 1 true switch which was Rotom-Fan which isn't the best. Also the statement about the steels walling 75% of the tier is pretty innacurate as a lot of Pokemon could use Substitute on incoming status effects and Mega Steelix is weak to a plentiful amount of things like Fighting and Water-types.
It's because he didn't use caps didn't he, 49
Dude all the mons you mentioned which according to you need to be suspected have pretty clear flaws.
Both Medicham and Hitmonlee have pretty average speed tiers and are frail af. Lee's lack of great coverage means bulky mons like Aromatisse and Amoonguss are gonna have a decently good score walling it and the fact that cham's STABs have immunities (spiritomb says hello) is a pretty big buzzkill. Exploud's got a pretty bad typing defensively and is also lacking in the speed department for an offensive Pokemon. Just as Take an Azelfie mentioned, there are still a plentiful ways to deal with all the bulky Pokemon you mentioned (Steelix and Registeel can be dealt with Fighters and in Steelix's case, water-types, Bronzong has a pretty annoying dark-type weakness, Audino and Alomomola are pretty much shut down cold by taunt and both are Venusaur food, etc etc). Really, Durant's ability to beat complete playstyles depending on its set is just appaling, hence why it was brought up to suspect. Honestly right now I'm even doubting you have any sort of dedication with this tier if you're bringing up Pokemon which, again, have pretty noticeable flaws for suspecting.
edit @ below: are you really gonna bring up high ladder when most
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hey hitman
i'm a stall player and stall is garbage in this tier right now. call me back when the hoopa exploud sigilyph emboar jellicent quintuple suspect test is going on and i might concede you have a point though
anyhow hate to break it to you but you are totally wrong, to the point where everyone is treating your post as a meme. by the way this post is also a call for people to stop doing that because it was fun for like an hour but.
i'm a stall player and stall is garbage in this tier right now. call me back when the hoopa exploud sigilyph emboar jellicent quintuple suspect test is going on and i might concede you have a point though
anyhow hate to break it to you but you are totally wrong, to the point where everyone is treating your post as a meme. by the way this post is also a call for people to stop doing that because it was fun for like an hour but.
"garbage"? really that bad? anecdotal evidence, but most of the high ladder seemed to me to be some variant of stall. what is it exactly that makes stall so unviable in your opinion? Virizion/Exploud/Boar are all nice wallbreakers, but it's not as if they can't be worn down.
not going to specifically address the other posts at great length, you guys our largely correct. the original intent of my post was not calling for those mons to be suspected, just to try and pinpoint exactly why is it that certain things are given priority as suspects over others, and why the tier (or all suspect tests really) are so ban happy. you can nitpick pokemon as much as you'd like. yes exploud has poor speed, yes the fighting mons don't have the best speed tier. this does not negate the fact that they are extremely potent at what they do. every mon has it's pros and cons, and simpling stating "Exploud is slow" ignores the fact that it can 2hko everything barring bulky steels for free.
does Durant not have clear weaknesses as well? what skews it's cost benefit ratio highly enough toward beneficial to warrant a ban? it was dangerous in the sense that you had to play a guessing game at first, but let's not act like it was Zoroark level. Durant had very bad 4mss. what is the main criteria used to determine a ban anymore? certainly don't think Durant caused overcentralization, nor was it extremely detrimental to the meta. those of course are not objective truths, and in reality I don't feel strongly about Durant either way. I'm just moreso curious about what this ban means about the meta moving forward.
Durant was one of the tier's most potent wallbreakers and it could revenge kill shit like virizion lol
Also the fact that it got banned out of a 80% majority doesn't mean that "smogon is ban happy" it just meant that 80% of voters, who are competent enough to get reqs within the games limit thought durant to be broken, the fact that most suspects get banned is probably a sign that we have a lot of potentially broken stuff in the metagame, which very much used to be the case. Everyone likes their free wins, i get it, that's why tyrantrum wasn't banned, but come on now.
Also not having to run hp fire on special glalie sounds amazing tbh, scarf dino is probably the best its ever been as well
Also the fact that it got banned out of a 80% majority doesn't mean that "smogon is ban happy" it just meant that 80% of voters, who are competent enough to get reqs within the games limit thought durant to be broken, the fact that most suspects get banned is probably a sign that we have a lot of potentially broken stuff in the metagame, which very much used to be the case. Everyone likes their free wins, i get it, that's why tyrantrum wasn't banned, but come on now.
Also not having to run hp fire on special glalie sounds amazing tbh, scarf dino is probably the best its ever been as well
hey. ru councilmen bum mcdoesbothing here. suspects aren't meant to be formalities. generally speaking, there will be a fair amount of debate one way or another before we decide on a course of action with a particular mon or group of mons. for instance, I wanted a qb of moth b.c no duh it was broken and skewed the meta, why waste people's time. but beyond tryna drive home that im right all the time forever (except w/a scrafty, i know when to admit my goofs n gaffs), i wanna get across that we suspect when we feel something isn't black and white, even if there a clear majority of an opinion; dudes can get swayed one way or another b.c tiering philosophy is hella objective, and some folks could stand to benefit from the viewpoints of others. myself, nails, and a few others felt that under slightly different conditions (say, the introduction of a few more splash able checks, ex: doublade), durant would in fact have been a wholly positive facet of the tier, but due to increasing demand and a lack of certain elements in the tier, we decided it best to introduce that debate on a broader scale. it turned out one sided, and that's cool, but with others (ttrum being the big go-to) it wasn't as straightforward. what I'd say we as a council are shooting for is to play as a guiding force moreso than some heavy-handed kokoloko system b.c we want this to be a tier as representative of the communities interest as we can. that said, itd be rad if you don't shun hit man either; the post was maybe a bit more aggro than needed, but ultimately it's just a call for visibility, and I think it's important to keep those lines of communication clear. so if you have any questions or concerns, hit us up, cuz we all just kids tryna pass time w/mons. all bound to make some missteps, ya know? just maybe keep a better tone, good for communication
Tyrantrum absolutely slipped through the cracks. in the history of XY RU, from what I can tell, there have been 15 suspects.
Durant
Sharpedo
Mega Aboma
Tyrantrum
Venomoth
Noivern
Reuniclus
Pangoro
Moltres
Pidegotite
Dragalge
Serp
Yanmega
Zoroark
Shuckle
Sharpedo
Mega Aboma
Tyrantrum
Venomoth
Noivern
Reuniclus
Pangoro
Moltres
Pidegotite
Dragalge
Serp
Yanmega
Zoroark
Shuckle
@49 certainly it's not easy to decide on suspects as an RU higher up, and I get that. my original post was overly dramatized and somewhat unfounded. not tryna be confrontative, so My B for that. but I think it got the message across. just voting in test after test w/ the largely same results had me disillusioned. the suspect process designed by yall or Smogon or w/e was not designed to be a unilateral ban, as you acknowledged. it just seems to me anymore that it basically is. I'm not naive enough to think that none of the banned shit was "broken" but 14/15 is enough of a sample IMO to not be coincidental. The suspect system itself is great, and the only reason I care is because RU can be mad fun, it's a tier where the massive OU and even UU mega-fueled power creep has been largely avoided, in large part due to the suspecting system. I would just like to see a little more skepticism and pushback when the next batch of mons are suspected. many voters do that already, and there is almost always good back and forth in these threads. i'm probably barking up the wrong tree, as it's more than likely the lurkers (myself included), who are more of the "problem" than all of yall who actively post here.
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As much as I hate missing, Special Virizion is really cool right now because it really pressures Lix much harder than Lum SD (and LO SD gets burned 100% of the time, that's just a fact), sets up easily on Diancie/Mola cores, does a lot better versus Sigilyph+Venusaur cores attempts at walling Virizion since you just need a little chip damage on sigilyph.
also shoutouts Natural Talent, we did it.
I also think tiers are very apprehensive to suspect mons that they don't think have a good shot at being banned, otherwise we'd probably have had suspects for Meloetta, Delphox and Scrafty at various points in the tier's history. In addition, many suspects are often supported by players well before they even got suspected (like Durant; some people have wanted a Durant suspect since the second Doublade left). Who wants to wast everyone's time and energy without something being banned? Especially considering how small and somewhat insular RU is compared to other official tiers.
lol
Every single one of these mons was absurdly broken during the time of their suspects, the fact that they were banned by a majority ~almost~ every single time should tell you that this isn't about smogon being ban happy, it's about obviously broken pokemon being suspected and banned
Every single one of these mons was absurdly broken during the time of their suspects, the fact that they were banned by a majority ~almost~ every single time should tell you that this isn't about smogon being ban happy, it's about obviously broken pokemon being suspected and banned
Not sure if you actually think this is why people voted no ban on Tyrantrum but its a little ridiculous and a lot insulting to the 48 (49 if you count the fact scythe. was gonna vote no ban but missed the vote) people who didn't vote ban on Tyrantrum. This thought wouldn't even make logical sense because even if Tyrantrum were giving "free wins" (come on, lol), your opponent is equally capable of using it thus giving you "free losses". 49 and I were talking about Tyrantrum like 3 weeks ago, and he was able to much more succinctly sum up my thoughts on why I didn't end up voting ban on Tyrantrum, and without digging through 3 weeks of skype logs it essentially boils down to, that while Tyrantrum is a very powerful Pokemon, and good in the RU metagame, it doesn't exactly generate or capitalize on free turns to an unhealthy degree, and many facets of the meta game mean that you'll often be preparing for Tyrantrum without trying to. This isn't a super great explanation, 49 definitely said it better. Aside from this, lets assume that "people love free wins" wasn't a logically flawed premise because anyone can use that mon, meaning it would hypothetically also cause "free losses". It actually appears that people really don't love "free wins" and that "free wins" are hardly representative of whats happening based on the fact that Tyrantrum had 11 uses in 48 games in SPL (11.5% usage) and went 6-5. I'm not gonna pretend that 48 games is a highly accurate representation of the RU meta game, but in the 1630 stats apparently only 14.1% of people actually like their "free wins". Before you respond "usage stats don't mean anything about whether or not a pokemon is broken," I agree, but if you agree with that you are fundamentally disagreeing with your own statement that Tyrantrum was banned because people want "free wins". So yeah, lets cut that kind of shit in these kind of threads moving forward, as it is at best a misguided view on opposing beliefs about tiering (which is at the end of the day subjective), and at worst a malicious attempt to label anyone who disagrees with your opinion as "seeking free wins" or "cheap". You would never catch me saying people who voted ban need to "get good" and stop losing to Tyrantrum, because I don't think people that voted ban on Tyrantrum did so because they are unable to beat it, and I'm not about to imply that.
In regards to the rest of your post, I really do agree Mega Glalie is about to get a whole hell of a lot better in the RU meta game, as Durant was far and away its best offensive check. Mega Glalie with heavy SpA investment and Freeze Dry / Ice Shard / Double Edge / filler is almost certainly gonna be the best set as with SpA investment no water can actually switch into you, and Double Edge hits hard without much investment. I'd say the scarfer that improves the most in this situation is Delphox as it is a (granted much shittier than durant) offensive check to Mega Glalie, and it can take down Scarf Tyrantrum w/ Dazzling Gleam ~50% of the time after rocks. The nice thing about being locked into dazzling gleam is that you aren't as much pursuit bait I guess, but otherwise that's not a super fun move to be locked into. Scarf Tyrantrum also improves as it has the physical bulk to RKO Mega Glalie w/o fear. Basically all scarfers slower than Durant (so all) improve in this meta, Medicham also RKO's M Glalie and KOes Tyrantrum which is nice for offense, though not enough on its own for either. But that's to be expected when you ban the best scarfer in the tier I guess.
Nor did i ever had any "malicious" intent with just a simple coment such as that one. And yea i did follow the ru spl games as this is my favorite tier and i am very much aware that tyrantrum did very badly as far as w/l ratio goes, but then again, nobody used any tyrantrum set that wasn't scarf if i'm not mistaken(pretty sure that i'm not but who knows), so yeah, thats as valid of an argument on the mon's viability as the usage stats. I might have sounded a little too agressive on my post though so i appoligize, didn't mean to offend anyone; Scythe told me a couple weeks ago he was going to vote ban on tyrantrum though, and killintime already admited to have told someone to vote no ban as joke when they would have done otherwise, but yea, went a little over the top w the passive aggressiveness there, sorry
For the record, Dice used a choice band tyrantrum against Meru which pretty much destroyed that rhyperior switch-in like it was nothing. And that game was lost not because of tyrantrum´s fault or anything, but pretty sure the rest of the tyrantrums were scarf. It doesnt matter since the metagame has been well prepared to dealing with scarf dino like it was the only set.
Looking forward to this new metagame, lot of things are gonna be really interesting (Gosh, virizion is a monster!). Fun, fun, fun!
Looking forward to this new metagame, lot of things are gonna be really interesting (Gosh, virizion is a monster!). Fun, fun, fun!
I don't necessarily agree with llamas that ttrum isn't a problem, but he does make a good point elsewhere in that people need to stop demonizing others for having different opinions, which I've been seeing a lot lately on the forums and RU room. I think it's one thing to joke about it (which I do a lot), but it's another to insinuate that people voted one way or the other because they "like free wins" or something, although some people do vote ban/no ban for questionable reasons. Let's be real though, I wasn't too happy with the outcome of the ttrum suspect myself, but even I admit it's the most borderline Pokemon RU has ever suspected. As for the hitman's post, I think he brings up some legitimate points and this is the first time that people are really discussing the tier more in depth since the Moltres thing in XY. I'd really like to see more of this kind of discussion since it makes this thread a bit more interesting when people are talking about the tier and certain Pokemon outside of the realm of "is this broken or not", so please don't be so quick to shut people down like that when their post can catalyze the discussion in a positive way.
I don't entirely agree with The Hitman's posts, but I do think that he brings up an important discussion point that hasn't been touched upon recently in RU, namely the propensity of bans in suspect tests and the role of the community during the test. I've had some thoughts about these things drifting around my head for a while, so now seems like a good time to air them.
I feel like a systemic problem with the suspecting process is that, in some ways, there are more incentives for the common player from a ban than from a decision not to ban. Pokemon as a game does not receive regular updates, and to some degree that means the metagame is entirely dependent by it's natural subtle change over time. The closest thing we have is usage drops/rises, and every time one comes around you can almost hear the prayers of consistent players for 'drops'. I think it's natural for players to want more immediate changes dropped/removed in their tiers to add a little bit of new life every now and again. Unfortunately, this is tied towards banning a Pokemon too - by removing a strong Pokemon from the tier, it changes the dynamics of play and shifts the metagame more rapidly. It's not unreasonable to suspect that some of these pro-ban votes may be directly related to a desire for this change. To reveal a little bit of my own 'evil', when I was less experienced I always secretly hoped the suspect process would result in bans because I wanted the 'freshness' that it would provide. Obviously I know believe that impulse to be unhealthy, and fortunately I wasn't good enough/dedicated enough to vote in suspect tests during that time. I don't think I need to explain why this isn't a healthy reason for justifying a suspect ban - it's independent of the tiers balance. But it's a factor I definitely can see impacting the suspect results regardless of the suspect in question - it's an implicit and, in all honesty, possibly subconscious bias among players weak and strong. Whilst it could be that all of those Pokemon were in fact meriting a ban, this could be a potential explanation in part for why this is the case.
If we assume that there are unhealthy factors that impact the suspect votes negatively, it's natural to want to remove these voters. Those who actively engage and are accepted into the greater RU community generally speaking know the active presences on the forums and trust them to make educated decisions, even if they disagree with those decisions. As they should. However, there is an impulse to place blame on the nebulous community of 'lurkers' of whom often determine suspect tests. It's easy to blame this group for the problems with suspect votes and claim that they are uneducated or are voting for weak reasons such as the aforementioned one. But the majority of voters are genuinely voting for what they think is the truth, even if their reasoning isn't particularly strong. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt, and I don't think hardly anyone is voting maliciously or selfishly on a conscious level. However, I still see people complaining about this group of 'lurkers' instead of trying to address the problem directly and engage the voting base.
I obviously lack the statistics, but I think it seems likely that most lurkers who qualify for suspect tests check the forums and would probably use it's resources for teambuilding. I feel as though the role of the np: thread is dualfold - it's a general common area for metagame discussion and during suspect season the center for suspect discussion in particular. I wouldn't be surprised if most voters read through the suspect thread and the arguments before voting. But when your suspect thread is only two pages long, there really isn't much for somebody not initiated into the community to look at. I suppose that was what irked me looking back at this suspect - people expressed some well formulated arguments in the thread, but compared to the voting base it was very little. Also, a collection of individual arguments isn't the same as a discussion in which users interact with other users and argue over strong/weak points in the argument. Maybe this points to the fact that there was widespread agreement that Durant was broken this time, but if we acknowledge that the situation was even remotely gray than surely there should be discussion?
I'm not trying to call the community out - that would be the pot calling the kettle black. However, I do think that if the community wants to be sure that it's suspect tests are educated, it ideally should have a public utility where everyone chips in and interacts with each other that isn't irc or PS chat (The former is ideal but honestly not as accessible/known for most as the forums whereas the latter is active but perhaps too informal). For experienced players, this means more wading through similar and perhaps boring discussion about suspects and brokenness, but maybe it's something that has to be sacrificed for general health of the community. I realize this is a tall order, as there are constraints in that RU doesn't have as large a player base and that likes make it really (perhaps too) easy to just agree with something tacitly and save the time of writing it up one's self. But as a whole, the more intelligent discussion during a suspect test in all media (especially this thread) and the more tolerant the community is to outside opinions, the more people will want to engage and the remaining lurkers will have more information to sift through if they so chose (which most probably will, at least a bit). The recent suspect threads have mostly been "here's my opinion" and a little bit less of "here's how I, with my opinion, interpret other people's opinions (respectfully) and leverage them with my own". This doesn't mean that every post in the forum must address another person's argument or even brokenness itself, but it certainly would help those that do.
I suppose this all boils down to 'there may be implicit biases in the suspect process itself that help explain the frequency of bans, the best (or at least a very good) way to improve the average voter's arguments in suspect tests is to provide as much public discussion as possible, especially for those new or uninitiated into the community'.
Only a slightly different note, I was wondering if the RU council would be willing to provide a little bit more than a few paragraphs explaining the suspect going forward for the future. I do think the RU council has been doing a great job with suspect nomination/matters pertaining to RU from the outside, don't get me wrong. And I understand that a formal log of proceedings is asking for way to much, but something like a formal irc/maybe even PS discussion discussing the rationale for the suspect/ the suspect (or even just the metagame) itself between the council and the community couldn't hurt/might be useful for some people. I realize that this requires a lot of organization, might have attendance problems, and might be seen as influencing the vote too much, so it may be completely unfeasible, so consider this more a suggestion rather than 'complete openness or riot' type of thing - I just think that if it does work or something similar could work, it could be cool.
I feel like a systemic problem with the suspecting process is that, in some ways, there are more incentives for the common player from a ban than from a decision not to ban. Pokemon as a game does not receive regular updates, and to some degree that means the metagame is entirely dependent by it's natural subtle change over time. The closest thing we have is usage drops/rises, and every time one comes around you can almost hear the prayers of consistent players for 'drops'. I think it's natural for players to want more immediate changes dropped/removed in their tiers to add a little bit of new life every now and again. Unfortunately, this is tied towards banning a Pokemon too - by removing a strong Pokemon from the tier, it changes the dynamics of play and shifts the metagame more rapidly. It's not unreasonable to suspect that some of these pro-ban votes may be directly related to a desire for this change. To reveal a little bit of my own 'evil', when I was less experienced I always secretly hoped the suspect process would result in bans because I wanted the 'freshness' that it would provide. Obviously I know believe that impulse to be unhealthy, and fortunately I wasn't good enough/dedicated enough to vote in suspect tests during that time. I don't think I need to explain why this isn't a healthy reason for justifying a suspect ban - it's independent of the tiers balance. But it's a factor I definitely can see impacting the suspect results regardless of the suspect in question - it's an implicit and, in all honesty, possibly subconscious bias among players weak and strong. Whilst it could be that all of those Pokemon were in fact meriting a ban, this could be a potential explanation in part for why this is the case.
If we assume that there are unhealthy factors that impact the suspect votes negatively, it's natural to want to remove these voters. Those who actively engage and are accepted into the greater RU community generally speaking know the active presences on the forums and trust them to make educated decisions, even if they disagree with those decisions. As they should. However, there is an impulse to place blame on the nebulous community of 'lurkers' of whom often determine suspect tests. It's easy to blame this group for the problems with suspect votes and claim that they are uneducated or are voting for weak reasons such as the aforementioned one. But the majority of voters are genuinely voting for what they think is the truth, even if their reasoning isn't particularly strong. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt, and I don't think hardly anyone is voting maliciously or selfishly on a conscious level. However, I still see people complaining about this group of 'lurkers' instead of trying to address the problem directly and engage the voting base.
I obviously lack the statistics, but I think it seems likely that most lurkers who qualify for suspect tests check the forums and would probably use it's resources for teambuilding. I feel as though the role of the np: thread is dualfold - it's a general common area for metagame discussion and during suspect season the center for suspect discussion in particular. I wouldn't be surprised if most voters read through the suspect thread and the arguments before voting. But when your suspect thread is only two pages long, there really isn't much for somebody not initiated into the community to look at. I suppose that was what irked me looking back at this suspect - people expressed some well formulated arguments in the thread, but compared to the voting base it was very little. Also, a collection of individual arguments isn't the same as a discussion in which users interact with other users and argue over strong/weak points in the argument. Maybe this points to the fact that there was widespread agreement that Durant was broken this time, but if we acknowledge that the situation was even remotely gray than surely there should be discussion?
I'm not trying to call the community out - that would be the pot calling the kettle black. However, I do think that if the community wants to be sure that it's suspect tests are educated, it ideally should have a public utility where everyone chips in and interacts with each other that isn't irc or PS chat (The former is ideal but honestly not as accessible/known for most as the forums whereas the latter is active but perhaps too informal). For experienced players, this means more wading through similar and perhaps boring discussion about suspects and brokenness, but maybe it's something that has to be sacrificed for general health of the community. I realize this is a tall order, as there are constraints in that RU doesn't have as large a player base and that likes make it really (perhaps too) easy to just agree with something tacitly and save the time of writing it up one's self. But as a whole, the more intelligent discussion during a suspect test in all media (especially this thread) and the more tolerant the community is to outside opinions, the more people will want to engage and the remaining lurkers will have more information to sift through if they so chose (which most probably will, at least a bit). The recent suspect threads have mostly been "here's my opinion" and a little bit less of "here's how I, with my opinion, interpret other people's opinions (respectfully) and leverage them with my own". This doesn't mean that every post in the forum must address another person's argument or even brokenness itself, but it certainly would help those that do.
I suppose this all boils down to 'there may be implicit biases in the suspect process itself that help explain the frequency of bans, the best (or at least a very good) way to improve the average voter's arguments in suspect tests is to provide as much public discussion as possible, especially for those new or uninitiated into the community'.
Only a slightly different note, I was wondering if the RU council would be willing to provide a little bit more than a few paragraphs explaining the suspect going forward for the future. I do think the RU council has been doing a great job with suspect nomination/matters pertaining to RU from the outside, don't get me wrong. And I understand that a formal log of proceedings is asking for way to much, but something like a formal irc/maybe even PS discussion discussing the rationale for the suspect/ the suspect (or even just the metagame) itself between the council and the community couldn't hurt/might be useful for some people. I realize that this requires a lot of organization, might have attendance problems, and might be seen as influencing the vote too much, so it may be completely unfeasible, so consider this more a suggestion rather than 'complete openness or riot' type of thing - I just think that if it does work or something similar could work, it could be cool.
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