Metagame NP: RU Stage 15: Gucci Gucci (Honchkrow RU, Amoonguss and Quagsire OU)

[Lord Death Man]

I obviously lack the statistics, but I think it seems likely that most lurkers who qualify for suspect tests check the forums and would probably use it's resources for teambuilding. I feel as though the role of the np: thread is dualfold - it's a general common area for metagame discussion and during suspect season the center for suspect discussion in particular. I wouldn't be surprised if most voters read through the suspect thread and the arguments before voting. But when your suspect thread is only two pages long, there really isn't much for somebody not initiated into the community to look at. I suppose that was what irked me looking back at this suspect - people expressed some well formulated arguments in the thread, but compared to the voting base it was very little. Also, a collection of individual arguments isn't the same as a discussion in which users interact with other users and argue over strong/weak points in the argument. Maybe this points to the fact that there was widespread agreement that Durant was broken this time, but if we acknowledge that the situation was even remotely gray than surely there should be discussion?

This reminds me a little of the NP posting reqs in the doubles Skymin suspect; it forced readers to articulate a new opinion and also to read the thread. However, I think this system was really flawed and felt arbitrary; note user tehy 's posts re: Skymin and his obvious frustration that people (not really TDs to my knowledge) essentially said that his reasoning "wasn't good enough". If a TD was to mysteriously not add someone w/a "bad" opinion to the voting section and justified it with a "your post sucked", then they can essentially pick and choose the vote and should just quickban or not do a suspect, in my opinion. I'm very much of the opinion that subjectivity should be removed as much as possible from the suspect decision, so I would never advocate for those kinds of reqs, but I see the appeal.

I think its notable that one of the most controversial suspects, Tyrantrum, only got about 4 pages of discussion. I think a big part of this is that RU is just not very active as a subforum. Because of that, I stopped freely giving people teams near RU suspects (there's other reasons) because I often feel that people are confused that a team engineered around handling a suspect as easily as possible steamrolls said suspect, which I believe is somewhat related to Tyrantrum staying (solely because it was just such a close vote).

Personally, during suspects I use the VR to make choices more than the NP anymore; many times viability threads mention suspects nonstop once they're announced, which gives me a clearer idea of its meta impact.

 

[Funbot28]

Since BL2 is becoming considerably large, maybe re-suspecting certain mons can be a valid idea for the metagame (think Crawdaunt in UU), which can help relieve this negative stigma when it comes to RU suspect tests.

P.S I can see Dragalge or Pangoro being suspected back

 

[freezai]

So with Durant banned I was on the look out for another strong bug type and I stumbled on what I believe to be a hidden gem in Pinsir.(its not even ranked on teh VR :o) While the similarities end with the fact that they're both bugs Pinsir definitely has tools to work with. Pinsir can use a moxie scarf set with a base 125 atk stat as well as spammable moves like Close Combat to back it up. Pinsir hits a real sweet spot at 295 which makes it a load especially because common scarfers like Medicham and Tyrantrum lose to it speedwise. It is also capable of running a Mold breaker SD set which can burn through stall and is augmented by the fact that mold breaker can break stall teams which rely on quagsire to check threats.

Pinsir @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- X-Scissor
- Close Combat
- Earthquake
- Knock Off

Pinsir @ Life Orb/Lum Berry
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- X-Scissor
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge/Earthquake

 

[Thatwackycruton]

gee, another suspected mon ended up getting banned, how shocking. these suspect tests are just formalities at this point, has anything suspected actually avoided a ban? although some bans were probably deserving, this pseudo auto ban is kind of ridiculous IMO. how do we define what's even ban worth anymore? something like Durant, who had switchins, plenty of checks/revenge killers, no priority, and was extremely set dependent gets the near unanimous boot. meanwhile shit like hitmonlee, medicham, exploud decimate half the tier with resisted moves and remain "unsuspected". the council or w/e smogon calls it now has great ability to shape the metagame in the tier by cherrypicking suspected mons, not an inherent problem, but one that can become a problem if the hivemind just keeps banning everything. lets keep banning every half competent offensive mon because "es too stonk" and see what happens. meanwhile the tier has good regen mons up the ass, and shit like mega Lix, mega Dino, bronzong and Reginazi which effortlessly walls like 3/4 of the tier. none of which will likely get suspected. stall is the future, and if you enjoy playing stall, then hell, lets keep banning everything. but if you shudder at the thought of elongated 6v6 drudging fuckfests, perhaps it is time to break from the status quo of suspecting = instantaneous banning.

Alright.

It seems to me that many player who post things like this seem to forget that the suspect test is, in fact, a vote. That means that the majority of people who cared enough to get reqs thought that Durant was too strong for the tier, meaning, by extension, more people end up happy with the metagame and we only get a few flamers like you and not half of the forum members. To be honest, the pokemon that you mentioned (outside of Exploud) have a much larger pool of switchins. For instance, Fat psychics (Colbur in the case of lee) Spiritomb, and Granbull are all acceptable stops to Hitmonlee and Medicham. Meanwhile, for your switchin options to Durant you had the SR weak Rotom-F. Anything else was shaky at best. Even exploud is always locked into a move after one turn and can be walled thereafter by Registeel and Diance. However, the main reason these pokemon weren't suspected was largely due to the extreme speed tier durant possessed along with its unbelievable power. I'd also like to refute your point about Durant being easy to revenge kill, as the scarf set may have been the single hardest pokemon to RK in the Tier.

There are many pokemon that can wall large portions of the metagame, such as chansey in OU, but it surely doesn't make it broken. Heck, Registeel and Zong lack reliable recovery, making them Vulnerable to burns, knock off and (in regi's case) hazards. There's plently of things they lose to. Power fire types, ground types, Fightiong types, and really just constant offensive pressure is more than enough to keep them around. Also, if you check the viability rankings, you'll note that both of them hover in the B ranks- far from being broken by any stretch of the Imagination.

There's two more points I'd like to touch up on, the first of which being that you seem to forget that Durant was banned with something resembling an 80% majority. That's an overwhelmingly large portion of voters who thought durant needed to go, which means it's really only 20% of voters who actually thought durant wasn't broken. Also, you totally contradicted yourself in saying that there are pokemon with next to no counters, but you still believe stall is the future. Stall is certainly not the future of RU, almost regardless of what they ban. Manectric, Venusaur, Hoopa, and the fighting types you mentioned above are more than enough to keep stall from ravaging the tier or even being a top playstyle.

Remember that this thread isn't a place for flaming, and while you did make some notable points, I feel that your argument was a bit too belligerent for a discussion-oriented environment like this.

 

[DTC]

So Pursuit is a pretty big part of this metagame because of Hoopa and other Pursuit weak Pokemon like Meloetta and Sigilyph. What Pursuit users do you guys like to use on teams? Personally I like Sneasel on more offensively inclined teams because of how fast it is, and Spiritomb on more defensive because it beats a lot of otherwise hard to beat Pokemon like Hitmonlee and Medicham.

Also, how important is Pursuit on a team? I find most of my teams are improved by having a Pursuit user on them, because there are many good Pursuiters in RU and Hoopa/Meloetta are a really big threat otherwise, but maybe I'm just using them too much as a crutch.

 

[Lord Death Man]

Aerodactyl is a mon who I think is only really worth using if you have pursuit; it pursuits Sigilyph, Hoopa, Delphox and Fletchinder pretty easily, though you don't really take them out. I've used it a few times to teams where I didn't feel Scarf Tyrantrum "fit" and really wanted Fletch + Sigilyph covered in the same slot.

I've noticed a sharp decline in AV Pursuit Escavalier lately; I think this is because it's terrible personally. In contrast, scarf Drapion is sort of trendy right now too. I haven't seen an Absol at all in forever, too; I think Sneasel and Spiritomb represent the pursuit trappers for 90% of teams utilizing them.

I tried Pursuit on Hitmonlee and Druddigon and I personally think it's sort of mediocre on both, and I wouldn't consider it for a second on anything else that learns it in RU. I tried Pursuit on Ambipom and no one ever switched (??).

Edit: Oh and I think Pursuit is intensely vital for offensive teams right now, because they can remove a lot of very troubling mons for offense, both in terms of offense vs offense's matchup, and in terms of offense vs other teams; like you said, notable threats like Hitmonlee, Medicham, Meloetta, etc, but it's also helped suppress defensive annoyances like Bronzong.

 

[rau]

As someone who has used Absol extensively, I've honestly just found no favor in running Pursuit and instead have always opted for a secondary coverage option such as Iron Tail and Play Rough (fsr I've yet to encounter someone who hasn't avoided falling to Iron Tail barring misses).

When looking for Pursuit trappers, agreeing with LDM that it'll usually come to using Spiritomb or Sneasel; Aerodactyl is pretty nice too for offensive builds (as mentioned, trapping Sigilyph and Delphox is nice, plus it outspeed CS hoops). On fatter teams, while I've mostly gone with using tomber, I feel like SpDef Drapion works pretty nicely too imo. Knock Off is Knock Off, Removing Toxic Spikes eases me on not having to exhaust Heal Bell (+ it sets em too), traps Hoopa a bit better than Spiritomb due to being able to invest to outspeed it and resisting both STABs and Whirlwind can be pretty clutch sometimes against mons who think drap's a free set-up (saved me from a few fletch cleans). The EV spread I use on Drap is nothing too creative, tbh. Max HP for bulk, 56 Speed with a Jolly nature allows me to outspeed Timid Hoopa (and neutral base 80s by that standard), and the remaining EVs are just dumped into SpDef for switching into Psychic-types better.

 

[EonX]

Pursuit is definitely a big part of the current metagame. Without it, Hoopa, Sigilyph, Meloetta, and Delphox would be much bigger threats than they already are. While Sneasel and Spiritomb are definitely the most common Pursuit users in the tier, there's definitely some other choices that I feel deserve some love:

Aerodactyl @ Life Orb
Ability: Unnerve
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge
- Aerial Ace
- Pursuit / Roost
- Earthquake / Aqua Tail / Roost

Aerodactyl has a high base Speed and can use Pursuit much in the same vein that its Mega counterpart does in UU; utilize the high Speed it has to scare out frail Ghosts and Psychics. Stone Edge and Aerial Ace are obvious STAB moves. EQ and Aqua Tail give coverage on the likes of Mega Steelix, Rhyperior, and Registeel. EQ is preferred due to hitting Registeel a good bit harder, allowing Aerodactyl to muscle through it when it's weakened. Roost is an option to get some reliable recovery vs more passive teams, but Aero usually just wants to clean late-game or punish frail Psychics with Pursuit.

Houndoom @ Life Orb
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 36 Atk / 220 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Fire Blast
- Dark Pulse
- Pursuit / Iron Tail

A lot of people hate on Houndoom as a Pursuit trapper, but I think that's largely because of the on-site spread, which is kind of a relic of Reuniclus meta. Houndoom no longer needs the heavy Attack investment and Crunch since that was primarily used to allow Houndoom to check +1 Reuniclus (they didn't run Focus Blast bc Spiritomb) and I feel this is a much better way to go about using Houndoom as a Pursuit trapper in the current meta. Sucker Punch creates a 50 / 50 scenario with Ghost and Psychic mons with Pursuit as they can either risk staying in to get hit with Sucker or try to switch out and risk Pursuit. Win the 50 / 50, and you've got a dead / heavily weakened Ghost or Psychic mon on our hands. Fire Blast and Dark Pulse give Houndoom its primary STAB options to hit extremely hard. Alternatively, Iron Tail is an option over Pursuit to lure in and hit Diancie extremely hard, as it will KO it should it switch into Dark Pulse or Fire Blast. EVs primarily focus on Special Attack and Speed while ensuring that Specs Meloetta either dies to Pursuit after Rocks, or dies to the next Rocks switch-in while also having a solid chance to OHKO Sigilyph if you play the guessing game right with Pursuit and Sucker Punch.

As for a couple of others, Escavalier isn't terrible, but it's really held back by how common Mega Steelix is. Druddigon has much better things to do and Hitmonee is strapped for moveslots as it is. Drapion is ok, but also suffers from Mega Steelix being as good as it is. So yeah, Spiritomb and Sneasel are definitely the class of Pursuit users in RU, but I think Aerodactyl and Houndoom have their own merits.

 

[DaKakz]

I think when people think Honchkrow they think SuckerPunch and BB, but people tend to forget about its two other moveslots so let's look at some possible options.

Steel Wing: IMO Steel Wing is the best move for the 3rd slot as it hits Diancie a super common mon that resists both of Honchkrow's STABs

252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Steel Wing vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Diancie: 296-354 (97.3 - 116.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

Superpower: this move straight up OHKOs Tyrantrum on the switch and is the best move that Honchkrow has to hit Rhyperior, MSteelix and Registeel

252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Superpower vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tyrantrum: 312-369 (102.2 - 120.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Superpower vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 218-257 (50.3 - 59.3%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Steelix: 174-205 (49.1 - 57.9%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Superpower vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Registeel: 255-302 (70 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


Pursuit: with pursuit Honchkrow turns almost every turn into a 50/50, you stay in with your mon and risk getting sucker punched (giving Honch a moxie boost if it kills) or switch out and get Pursuit trapped (also giving it a moxie boost if it kills)

Heat Wave: this move with a Naughty nature could be an option as it allows the krow to 2HKO MSteelix without dropping your attack with Superpower making it easier to sweep.

Substitute: this could fit in the fourth moveslot as it allows krow to not only evade status moves but it also forces the opponent to attack in order to break your sub allowing krow to sucker punch freely

Honchkrow also has other moves like Taunt, Perish Song (and lol TWave) in order to help it break stall I guess but I think the main set will consist of Sucker, BB, Steel Wing and Superpower but I could be wrong, let's just wait and see.

 

[Wandering Wobbuffet]

I think when people think Honchkrow they think SuckerPunch and BB, but people tend to forget about its two other moveslots so let's look at some possible options.

Steel Wing: IMO Steel Wing is the best move for the 3rd slot as it hits Diancie a super common mon that resists both of Honchkrow's STABs

252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Steel Wing vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Diancie: 296-354 (97.3 - 116.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

Superpower: this move straight up OHKOs Tyrantrum on the switch and is the best move that Honchkrow has to hit Rhyperior, MSteelix and Registeel

252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Superpower vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tyrantrum: 312-369 (102.2 - 120.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Superpower vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 218-257 (50.3 - 59.3%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Steelix: 174-205 (49.1 - 57.9%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Superpower vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Registeel: 255-302 (70 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Pursuit: with pursuit Honchkrow turns almost every turn into a 50/50, you stay in with your mon and risk getting sucker punched (giving Honch a moxie boost if it kills) or switch out and get Pursuit trapped (also giving it a moxie boost if it kills)

Heat Wave: this move with a Naughty nature could be an option as it allows the krow to 2HKO MSteelix without dropping your attack with Superpower making it easier to sweep.
Substitute: this could fit in the fourth moveslot as it allows krow to not only evade status moves but it also forces the opponent to attack in order to break your sub allowing krow to sucker punch freely

Honchkrow also has other moves like Taunt, Perish Song (and lol TWave) in order to help it break stall I guess but I think the main set will consist of Sucker, BB, Steel Wing and Superpower but I could be wrong, let's just wait and see.

Heat wave is almost definitely going to be a staple on Krow. The ability to 2HKO mega steelix one of the most common mons in the tier which otherwise would be a pretty decent stop is invaluable.

 

[feen]

Honchkrow I think will be one of those mons that's gonna be overhyped to the point where people will say it's broken, similar to the Hoopa case. Honchkrow, having great STAB in Brave Bird and Sucker Punch, also has useful coverage in Heat Wave, Pursuit, and Steel Wing. It also benefits from Moxie, which gives it a better edge than Absol.

However, Honchkrow isn't really considered as a Dark-type when building, as Dark-types in RU tend to either trap Pokemon reliably (Spiritomb), or have powerful reliable STABs to back it up (Houndoom, Drapion [a bit of a special case, Band / SD falls in the category here], and Absol). So one should either build a team around it (which most of us will do, as it is a new Pokemon), or use it as a Flying-type. If you're using it as a Flying-type, you're still facing competition from Fletchinder, because more reliable priority and obvious reasons (wisp, sd), and also from Braviary and Sigilyph because it's a solid setup sweeper.

That being said, I don't see Honchkrow being used much differently than Absol is right now. Moving on, Virizion looks more dangerous than ever due to it being the only Grass-type that wouldn't wanna switch out vs Honchkrow. This is all speculation, I might be completely wrong but only time will say that.

 

[eren]

Hi I will like to discuss the possibility of a quick ban on the illustrious crow:

Here's what will become the best honch set if it isn't quick banned though

Honchkrow (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Brave Bird
- Heat Wave / Superpower
- Steel Wing / Pursuit / Roost

Honch cores:

Honchkrow + Mesprit + Spikes
Honchkrow + VoltTurn + Spikes

Let's look at every single viable flying resist in the tier and Honch's abilities versus them:

calcs

: Steelix

Steelix, definitely the most common flying resist, can not switch in on the krow. It fears multiple moves, heat wave and superpower.

I'll show you some calcs with an extremely SpD version of Lix which I've never seen anyone run of my life (to be generous to krow)

4- SpA Life Orb Honchkrow Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 200 SpD Mega Steelix: 146-172 (41.2 - 48.5%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes

252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Superpower vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Mega Steelix: 153-182 (43.2 - 51.4%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes

Tyrantrum can't come in as well, as it is 2HKOed by Life Orb Brave Bird + Sucker Punch without HP investment

252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tyrantrum: 117-138 (38.2 - 45%) -- 9% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes

252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tyrantrum: 156-185 (50.9 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes

I'll show max def diancie but no one runs that garb set

252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Steel Wing vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Diancie: 234-276 (76.9 - 90.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Manectric: 203-240 (72.2 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

moving on

probably one of the better checks, but still loses on the switch in:

252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Superpower vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 218-257 (50.3 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery

-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Superpower vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 144-172 (33.2 - 39.7%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery

min roll for 2 superpowers versus standard tank rhyperior is 83.2 while max is 100

252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aerodactyl: 192-227 (63.7 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

either you are roost or you die, but crow can just switch freely or it takes an astonishing:

252 Atk Aerodactyl Pursuit vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Honchkrow: 32-38 (9.3 - 11.1%) -- possible 9HKO

20% on the switch.

252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jolteon: 205-242 (75.6 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

moving on

252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 124 HP / 0 Def Rotom: 169-199 (62.1 - 73.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

and honch just switch

superpower

252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eelektross: 164-192 (43.8 - 51.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eelektross: 218-257 (58.2 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

goodbye

Honch versus spirit's registeel spread:

252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Superpower vs. 252 HP / 40+ Def Registeel: 226-268 (62 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery

SpA Life Orb Honchkrow Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 216 SpD Registeel: 101-122 (27.7 - 33.5%) -- 33.3% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery

4- SpA Life Orb Honchkrow Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Mawile: 244-289 (80.2 - 95%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

it's a lead or a sweeper but:

Omastar: 299-354 (106.4 - 125.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

literally the only good check in the whole tier,

252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 208 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-S: 94-110 (32 - 37.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

but can still be chunked

252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Superpower vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kabutops: 348-411 (133.3 - 157.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kabutops: 175-207 (67 - 79.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

O.O

252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 40 HP / 252 Def Lanturn: 148-175 (36.9 - 43.6%) -- 46.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, 1 layer of Spikes, and Leftovers recovery

Whoops forgot bronzong

0- SpA Life Orb Honchkrow Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 82+ SpD Bronzong: 125-148 (36.9 - 43.7%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Bronzong: 133-156 (39.3 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

tl;dr the majority of times, you click brave bird because the mons that solidly resist it are KOd or 2HKOed by coverage later because they are slower
That's how it's different Arifeen



Now after seeing these stupidly large amount of calcs, your main question is: how often can Honch come in? If it can't come in, it cant massacre teams.

And since I'm posting a rhetorical question, I'm here to answer your hypothetical question about a hypothetical situation!

I'll show you a list since I'm too lazy

list

Defensive

if you are roost

Defensive or Superpower Locked

free switch on this and u force it out or it dies and gives u +1

^ you need a free switch versus these dudes

Tl;dr anything: honch is broke as fuck ban right now

 

[toaster22]

Hi everyone! I have been recently lurking around the RU forum.
Honchkrow just dropped from UU to RU, so I'd like to talk about Honchkrow and its impact.

All Out Attacker
Honchkrow @ Life Orb
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Sucker Punch
- Steel Wing
- Superpower


Honchkrow is really strong especially with its 125 Base Attack combined with a high powered STAB in Brave Bird. The most obvious comparison you're going to make is to compare Honchkrow with Absol. Both share a Dark typing and somewhat have a similar movepool. Stats wise Absol is slightly stronger and faster. The notable difference is that Honchkrow has a strong Flying STAB, which gives it an ability to smash Fighting types, which Absol requires Play Rough to do so. Honchkrow with an Adamant Life Orb - boosted Brave Bird can also 2HKO Alomomola with a good chance after a Stealth Rock+ Protect, something which a Non-SD Absol cannot do. Moxie is also a huge difference and can give it some really good late game cleaning potential as it is really hard to stop Honchkrow after an Moxie boost. Main problem is that Honchkrow isn't very durable as an hit and run hitter or as a cleaner since between Life Orb, Stealth Rocks damage and Brave Bird recoil it incurs way too much damage. It is also frail like Absol and provide no real defensive utility. Having Steel Wing is really nice though as it is 100% accurate way of hitting Diancie. It's a pretty nice drop. Can break some balance builds pretty well, but i don't think its really broken because it is plagued with similar problems Absol have, while having slightly better capabilities, but more frail and gets worn down much easier. It isn't going to straight up 6-0 teams from the matchup. IMO Heat Wave isn't very good because it misses coverage on like Registeel and Bronzong as it is unable to 2HKO them, but definately usable. Nasty Plot attacker maybe viable with a decent SpA, but has tons of flaws alongside it.

On the other hand Virizion is really good right now, being able to revenge Honchkrow and with Amoongus gone from the tier it loses one of its common answer on defensive teams.

 

[atomicllamas]

Hi I will like to discuss the possibility of a quick ban on the illustrious crow:


Tl;dr anything: honch is broke as fuck ban right now

I'm gonna ask we not do this before the ladder is even updated, maybe it turns out Honchkrow is broken, but this isn't haxorus, so I don't think we need to discuss quickbanning it before it's even in the tier.

Additionally, that list of stuff honchkrow comes in on is flawed in that it actually switches in to 0 of those things (flygon has u turn, defensive emboar can wisp / use any move that isn't protect, and superpower locked CS boar is still doing a crap ton). The stuff honchkrow can do stuff vs after a free switch in is also kind of exaggerated. Needs sturdy to be broken on sawk or it be locked into eq/zhb. The next four + top are also true, but it has to watch out for Timid exploud and Mach punch from gurdurr if it's too low. Poliwrath, trevenant and roselia are all garbage and mostly irrelevant at this point regardless.

 

[tehy]

My personal feelings on honchkrow is that, even if offense ends up able to deal with it, it's just another threat beating on stall. Which by the way just lost amoonguss (and quagsire I guess). So really hoping it gets the boot with a quickness but we'll see I guess.

 

[Funbot28]

I don't agree with a quick ban at all this point even before the ladder is updated. Honestly it's a nice wall breaker and all, but it's reliance on Sucker Punch vs Offense can easily be worked with. 4MSS also plays into factor hear as choosing Superpower, Steel Wing or Heat Wave can be crucial from the looks of it at this moment. It's definitely suspect-worthy, but people need to calm down and actually test it out before making audacious claims. This isn't a Mega Pinsir or Mega Gyarados situation.

 

[Take Azelfie]

Wait, is the fan gonna be able to check one of the tiers most deadliest threats?!?!?!

But in all seriousness this is getting a little bit too much hype. It has a rocks weakness and takes LO damage leaving it prone to priority / scarf lures. Also if your team is super weak to Honchkrow use Babiri Diancie, the best lure of all time. Grabodor as a spiker seems a lot more appealing due to the amount of recoil that Honchkrow is gonna have to cost itself.

I am going to miss the hell out of Amoonguss. Even though Venusaur has been overshadowing it for quite some time and most people thought it was incredibly annoying but this really puts a change on some things. First of all CM Virizion is now even better, Emboar has less stress to run Sleep Talk, Stall loses a great asset. This is feel is more impactful than Honchkrow if I am being honest here.

 

[Aberforth]

What reason is there to run Superpower over heat wave? Aggron?

Brave Bird Sucker Steel Wing Heat Wave has all of one switch in. Rhyperior.

 

[tehy]

registeel

SpD bronzong

escavalier getting brave birded regardless

magneton

strongest move for eelektross

if people still use it klinklang

 

[lighthouses]

The best answer is by far rhyperior, but i really can't think of anything else, so that's probably a bad sign
Also can someone explain to me why not just run superpower on honch instead of heat wave? I dislike the thought of being completely walled by diancie and rhyperior, although yes, you can run steel wing, i feel like thats a huuuge waste when pursuit/roost are so much more useful and you can just superpower diancie a couple times.

 

[phantom]

Avoid making a list of damage calcs and avoid making one liners when you can. I get that it's exciting that a new Pokemon dropped to the tier, but please try and maintain the quality of discussion that this thread had before.

 

[EonX]

All I see is people talking about physically-based mixed sets, and while I feel that is Honchkrow's best way to go, it does have another attacking stat you know...

Honchkrow @ Life Orb / Expert Belt
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Naive / Rash
- Dark Pulse
- Heat Wave
- Hidden Power Steel / Nasty Plot
- Sucker Punch / Brave Bird

So remember those switch-ins for physical Krow? Yeah, just throw them away here. Seriously, RU is so short on special walls it's ridiculous. The first three moves are pretty mandatory for Krow and teams have literally one switch-in; and it depends on the 3rd move that's used. Dark Pulse rips into Bronzong and can 2HKO Rhyperior with some chip damage. Heat Wave pushes damage on Registeel and ensures that it gets 3HKOed without question. Catching it with a Dark Pulse will throw it into 2HKO range the next time it comes in. HP Steel easily 2HKOes Diancie and will weaken it at the very least for something else to take advantage of. Nasty Plot is a fine alternative if you want Honchkrow to push through Alomomola as Dark Pulse misses out on the 2HKO after Stealth Rock, but it will be left unable to deal with Diancie. Sucker Punch gives Krow a priority move that's still p. damn strong off of base 125 Attack (and possibly backed by Moxie) and Brave Bird allows Krow to fill a pure wallbreaking role. Life Orb should be used with Sucker Punch while EBelt is advised with Brave Bird. As far as the nature goes, Rash allows Honchkrow to get many more kills, but Naive can let it outspeed positive-natured Hoopa. Naive should undoubtedly be used if Sucker Punch is not on the set. Moxie is the main ability on this set as it allows Honchkrow's form of priority to get a boost if it gets a KO, making it much harder to revenge kill. Super Luck and Insomnia have niche uses on the set. Insomnia can let Honchkrow switch into sleep inducers, but this isn't as important with Amoonguss out of the tier. Super Luck is even more situational, but does boost the power of critical hits. That said, Moxie is easily the most reliable ability as it will usually get use every battle, even with the special-based set. Also, as a whole, Honchkrow is going to want a + Speed nature, if only for Hoopa.

Amoonguss - This isn't the biggest deal in the world, but it was the tier's main sleep inducer. Fighting-types get a fair bit better since Amoonguss could serve as a nice blanket check to the vast majority of them. Virizion and Hitmonlee are the two that stand to gain the most in my mind from Amoonguss leaving. In particular, Calm Mind Virizion loses a nice check to it and becomes much more dangerous against more defensive teams. Hitmonlee is very happy to see Amoonguss go considering it's had to use a Jolly nature on Reckless sets lately to beat Venusaur and Scarf sets get some more breathing room with one less switch-in. On the subject of Venusaur, defensive sets become a real possibility as it has the same typing and similar bulk, trading in Regenerator for better offensive presence.

Quagsire - Considering RU's best sweeper is a Grass-type (Virizion) this isn't a big deal at all. There were better options to beat Fletchinder as well and Seismitoad largely overshadowed it as a Water / Ground type thanks to Water Absorb and better offensive presence. I guess SD Samurott is helped a little bit by this, but it's got more issues with Venusaur as it is and Quagsire was just not that common in RU, thus making the loss of it incredibly minimal.

Also, with Celebi in UU, we MIGHT get Shaymin in a few months. Too early to really contemplate it, but just an early thought.