Basically, I'm starting this thread so fellow Smogonites can voice their opinions about the actual massacre and other topics such as the LGBTQ community, gun control, Islam and Islam extremists, and provide a place for grieving. Please be respectful of others here. Also, I'ma post my own opinions about all this after I watch the news a bit more, and I advise you all to do the same.
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Serious Orlando mass shooting
- Thread starter Icing On Da Cake
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I just found out myself just moments ago, my heart goes out to the families and loved ones of the victims, simply a tragedy. I know very little of what exactly happened so I'm going to watch more on it before adding any additional opinions to my post, which I'll edit later.
The biggest problem with this shooting is the political ramifications to this. Even though it is by far the worst mass shooting in U.S. history, the GOP will probably focus more on the fact that the shooter was a radical Muslim and not the fact that this has an underlying tone of anti-LGBTQ prejudice.
jrp
Banned deucer.
The underlying issue here is that both sides are equally related. It was certainly a side effect of prejudice, but the prejudice comes from radical islam.
I saw a quote I rather liked on facebook earlier: Religion needs to either adapt itself to LGBT and women's rights, or the religion needs to die. Not the people.
Both sides need to accept that the issue isn't as black and white as they want to make it. The excuses the left keeps making for islamic attacks need to end. The conservatives can't blame this entirely on islam though. It's their lack of desire for gun laws, as well as members of their own ranks that perpetuate the cycle of discrimination against LGBT people.
I saw a quote I rather liked on facebook earlier: Religion needs to either adapt itself to LGBT and women's rights, or the religion needs to die. Not the people.
Both sides need to accept that the issue isn't as black and white as they want to make it. The excuses the left keeps making for islamic attacks need to end. The conservatives can't blame this entirely on islam though. It's their lack of desire for gun laws, as well as members of their own ranks that perpetuate the cycle of discrimination against LGBT people.
THE_IRON_...KENYAN?
Banned deucer.
*puff* dude, like what if... *cough cough* *laughing* SHUT THE FUCK UP DUDE *cough cough* what if like we just BANNED all the guns
I'm not making the argument that the two situations are mutually exclusive. It's more of the fact that the GOP response to the issue is to further clamp down on anti-Muslim policies whilst turning a blind eye to deeper homophobic and transphobic sentiments that's they won't address. This also goes with the issue of some form of gun regulation, which will be used to pressure the GOP.
Either way, I'm still waiting on how either Trump or Clinton will respond to not only the tragedy, but also issues tied into it (i.e. gun control, terror surveillance).
I'm aware that punishments for homosexuality (in a broad sense, so sorry if I offend transpeople on this thread) are prevalent in the Abrahamic religions. Given the scope of the issue as well how it entangled radical islam, homophobia, and guns into one giant mess. I am just waiting to see how each party responds to the event, particularly on the GOP side. The events that happened all stack against what the current GOP believes in, and with a wavering element like Donald Trump as their nominee, they should navigate this issue carefully.
And Stratos , I really don't appreciate the sarcastic one-liners that you tend to post as a form of response. If you want to point out a mistake in my response, can you at least do so civilly? It's not what I expect from a 20-year-old CS major.
The biggest problem with this shooting is the loss of human life.
The term shooting implies the loss of human life. What I meant by problem is moving onwards (i.e. future complications).
Uh, it's possible and indeed common to survive being shot, so shooting doesn't necessarily imply that. But either way, we shouldn't be more concerned with what the GOP might do than with the plight of the victims and their families. We should focus on how we should help.
Speaking of which, if you're in Florida and you want to help, here's a list of blood bank donation centers in Florida. The website is currently appears to be down due to heavy traffic, I'm afraid I can't get a mirror but the link should clear up: http://blood-banks.regionaldirectory.us/florida.htm
Red Cross site for giving blood: http://www.redcross.org/give-blood
Also, here's the official GoFundMe page for the victims, run by Equality Florida: https://www.gofundme.com/PulseVictimsFund
Giving blood and donating are good things you can do right now to help. Even if your blood doesn't reach the hospitals in time, it will help replenish supplies drained by this terrorist attack.
eaglehawk's point, though poorly phrased, is that there is a very long history of gay clubs being attacked in the US and around the world and it will absolutely be ignored who the victims were in this case. The US public didn't care enough apparently when it was kids, and they're certainly not going to care when it was a bunch of homos.
And yes, non-Muslims have continually attacked gay clubs for decades too. Examples:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UpStairs_Lounge_arson_attack
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/special_report/1999/05/99/the_nail_bomb_terror/333913.stm
http://www.nytimes.com/1997/02/23/us/in-latest-atlanta-bombing-5-are-injured-at-a-gay-bar.html
http://www.nytimes.com/1999/07/20/n...de-a-gay-bar-seeks-release-from-hospital.html
http://www.tulsaworld.com/archives/...cle_213e2564-b990-5d5b-ba79-5f8e5c58cb69.html
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/02/02/gay.shooting/index.html
And yes, non-Muslims have continually attacked gay clubs for decades too. Examples:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UpStairs_Lounge_arson_attack
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/special_report/1999/05/99/the_nail_bomb_terror/333913.stm
http://www.nytimes.com/1997/02/23/us/in-latest-atlanta-bombing-5-are-injured-at-a-gay-bar.html
http://www.nytimes.com/1999/07/20/n...de-a-gay-bar-seeks-release-from-hospital.html
http://www.tulsaworld.com/archives/...cle_213e2564-b990-5d5b-ba79-5f8e5c58cb69.html
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/02/02/gay.shooting/index.html
This is such a tragedy... I can't believe 50 people were shot and are now dead. I may not be in the LGBT community, but my condolences are to everyone who is affected by this. I hope the 53 injured will get the blood they need.
I'd post more but I don't really know what to say, this is horrible. First I was informed about Christina Grimmie's shooting and death, and now there is this.
I'd post more but I don't really know what to say, this is horrible. First I was informed about Christina Grimmie's shooting and death, and now there is this.
You really shouldn't be wondering about each party's responses to this shooting. Just look at the demographics of their supporters: GOP supporters mainly consist of white, working/middle class, older (40+), rural, and religious people. Since they're the majority, they don't really care or have compassion for minorities, because they really haven't had too much exposure. They're extremely fearful of Islamic terrorism because a) They're not Christian and b) they think that their town out in podunk land is gna get attacked. They're also vehemently against gun restrictions because they use them to hunt and to defend themselves (a little ok Imo because cops would be far away but still who's gna attack them)
On the other hand, democratic supporters usually consist of minority (not only ethnically but also lgbt-wise) voters that are young and mainly live in urban areas. Many of them don't own firearms given the relative proximity to law enforcement, and have compassion for minorities because many of them are minority themselves.
This is why each party focuses on a different aspect of this mass shooting because of the different circumstances and background of their supporters. Kinda horrible but it's true.
P.S. I'm on a phone so sorry if this post looks sloppy
On the other hand, democratic supporters usually consist of minority (not only ethnically but also lgbt-wise) voters that are young and mainly live in urban areas. Many of them don't own firearms given the relative proximity to law enforcement, and have compassion for minorities because many of them are minority themselves.
This is why each party focuses on a different aspect of this mass shooting because of the different circumstances and background of their supporters. Kinda horrible but it's true.
P.S. I'm on a phone so sorry if this post looks sloppy
HailFall
my cancer is sun and my leo is moon
Islam was not responsible for this massacre. A person who used Islam as a tool to justify their homophobia was. Homophobia is the underlying problem, not Islam. The way to stop homophobic hate crimes is abolishing homophobia, not abolishing Islam. Multiple parts of the Bible are homophobic, but many Christians in the west have accepted that the bible was written by humans, and thus carries human prejudices. The same can be said for the Quran. Do you see people saying that we should fight Christianity too?
Stop using the deaths of LGBT people to push your bigoted anti-Muslim agenda. Stop.
Stop using the deaths of LGBT people to push your bigoted anti-Muslim agenda. Stop.
thesecondbest
Just Kidding I'm First
The guy pledged allegiance to isis on a 911 call just before the shooting. how much more obvious can it get? Liberals are just fucking blind when it comes to Islamic terrorism or black on black crime, and that's why I, as much as sunny004 may believe otherwise, as a young son of immigrants, am supporting trump. Fuck Islam
EDIT: link
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ya...omar-mateen-suspected-orlando-000000893.html#
EDIT: link
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ya...omar-mateen-suspected-orlando-000000893.html#
Yeah, he pledged allegiance to isis, not Islam. Ignore one pattern for the other, sure.
What does black on black crime have to do with this at all?
What does black on black crime have to do with this at all?
Conspiracy theorists would call you crazy, because unless we ban all guns wholesale (no military, no police), they'd argue all it'd take is the right circumstances (a heavy, nuclear or biological attack, whether it is actually a terrorist attack or a false flag would probably be irrelevant. There is also the Yellowstone Cauldera), and we could conceivably end up living under martial law. And while the possibility of it ending isn't 100% impossible, the special interests might pay off the right politicians and military leaders to keep it a police state, and without civil rights, it's not impossible that under such circumstances, force might be required (and the only viable option for) to return to a democratic state.
I hate to admit it, but 2nd Amendment enthusiasts who use this reasoning for keeping military-grade weaponry or assault weapons might have a point, and I'd rather not take the chance that they are right (of course, if any of them have then gone around, shooting people, that's because they are insane).
That said, I think that there needs to be restrictions on who repeating, high-ammunition weaponry. It seems quite clear that this individual, if he was given the right psychological evaluations, would have been found prone to violence, with an inferior regard to the lives of others (sorry anti-LGBT, but gays are still sentient beings with the due rights to life therein), and would have been rejected as unfit as a gun owner except for maybe a single-shot musket, let alone the responsibility in security.
These type of weapons should only be in the hands of those who only would use them to protect themselves, their friend, and family, and hope to never have to use them.
I imagine I should be far more nervous that this sort of thing happened in my own backyard. WTF?
THE_IRON_...KENYAN?
Banned deucer.
I dont trust the government to properly do background checks. That seems like a really easy way to slow down or halt the armament of the citizenry of the united states. There is way too much power there to abuse and I dont trust the typical political sociopath or psychopath to not use that to fuel their ends, like they do with public education and college. People and professors openly calling for the destruction of the white race and blaming whites for every little thing, people virtue signalling against capitalism and in favor of things like marxism or communism - I just cant take it anymore. I want more power back in the hands of the American people
I think your fears might not be unfounded, but then what would you suggest?
THE_IRON_...KENYAN?
Banned deucer.
I would give the citizenry of the united states unrestrained ability to arm and defend themselves, and I would get government out of things like wealth redistribution, education, and fixed wages (minimum wage)
That might not go over well with everyone. To be fair, Corporate America, the military-industrial complex, religious groups, and special interests are the main reason we can't trust the government. That is the reason why wealth distribution, education, and minimum wage is a problem in the first place. It might work, but I think that the affects would be more liable to dial gun violence up to 10.
All right, now that my electricity issues have been resolved and I've watched news covering the tragedy more, I think I'm ready to speak about it and other topics related to it. Agree or disagree with me, at least hear me out.
Overview of the Shooter
(handsome guy, wasn't he?)
On Sunday, June 12, 2016, a scumbag by the name of Omar Mateen, who, with obvious homophobic ideals, murdered 50 people (might rise due to deaths from injuries, etc.) and injured 53 others at a gay bar in Orlando, Florida. It has been reported that the shooter had pledged allegiance to ISIS (or whatever the fuck you want to call these awful people) and was also investigated by the FBI, who obviously dropped the ball in their investigation, seeing that he committed the worst mass shooting in American history, with the death toll surpassing even the Virginia Tech (33 dead) and Sandy Hook related shootings (28 dead).
The LGBTQ Community
This shooting is yet another instance in which innocent people were killed for absolutely no reason other than bigotry. Such a shame that some people in the world still haven't progressed past the horrible practice of eliminating anything they disagree with with little to no viable reason to it. Whether you are a member of the LGBTQ community, a person tolerant of other's sexual orientation, or someone who disagrees with homosexuality, etc., you (as a person) have to agree that killing innocents (no matter their background, beliefs, etc.) is wrong, and if you don't, you are obviously a person that doesn't deserve to interact with the outside world and need to be caged before you kill someone or something.
Muslims and the Islam Faith
Because of the actions of Muslim extremists, followers of Islam constantly face Islamophobia from the hands of bigots who judged a whole group of people based on some bad apples. While it is true I'm not an expert on the Islam faith, I do know some Muslims in my personal life, and they are as kind as anyone else I've met. I ask anyone reading this to judge a person just on their individual personality, actions, etc., rather than sticking them under one umbrella with others who ruin the image of the innocents of those particular groups. Whether you agree with Islam and religion in general or not, everyone please respect everyone else's right to religious freedom.
Gun Control
Oh, boy, what an annoying topic to discuss. While I agree that the 2nd amendment should exist, gun toting idiots like this fool and many, many others, abuse this right and, for some reason, make their own huge fucking arsenal and shit, with automatic weapons and hundreds of rounds of ammunition, like they're preparing for WWIII in their front lawn or something. Completely banning guns and having 0 restrictions are both asking for trouble. People suspected of suspicious activities, like this fool, should have all their shit taken away so more innocent people don't have to die. If you are cool about your guns (not shooting up everything, not showing mental issues), then I don't really care about your gun ownership status.
Conclusion
If there's a part of this you will actually read, read this part. Appreciate all that you have. Enjoy all the time you have on this Earth alive, because it could be snatched away in an instant. Be tolerant of other's beliefs/life styles (unless they greatly negatively affect others). Always stay alert. And, finally, send your condolences to Orlando and the victims' families via Social Media.
Overview of the Shooter
On Sunday, June 12, 2016, a scumbag by the name of Omar Mateen, who, with obvious homophobic ideals, murdered 50 people (might rise due to deaths from injuries, etc.) and injured 53 others at a gay bar in Orlando, Florida. It has been reported that the shooter had pledged allegiance to ISIS (or whatever the fuck you want to call these awful people) and was also investigated by the FBI, who obviously dropped the ball in their investigation, seeing that he committed the worst mass shooting in American history, with the death toll surpassing even the Virginia Tech (33 dead) and Sandy Hook related shootings (28 dead).
The LGBTQ Community
This shooting is yet another instance in which innocent people were killed for absolutely no reason other than bigotry. Such a shame that some people in the world still haven't progressed past the horrible practice of eliminating anything they disagree with with little to no viable reason to it. Whether you are a member of the LGBTQ community, a person tolerant of other's sexual orientation, or someone who disagrees with homosexuality, etc., you (as a person) have to agree that killing innocents (no matter their background, beliefs, etc.) is wrong, and if you don't, you are obviously a person that doesn't deserve to interact with the outside world and need to be caged before you kill someone or something.
Muslims and the Islam Faith
Because of the actions of Muslim extremists, followers of Islam constantly face Islamophobia from the hands of bigots who judged a whole group of people based on some bad apples. While it is true I'm not an expert on the Islam faith, I do know some Muslims in my personal life, and they are as kind as anyone else I've met. I ask anyone reading this to judge a person just on their individual personality, actions, etc., rather than sticking them under one umbrella with others who ruin the image of the innocents of those particular groups. Whether you agree with Islam and religion in general or not, everyone please respect everyone else's right to religious freedom.
Gun Control
Oh, boy, what an annoying topic to discuss. While I agree that the 2nd amendment should exist, gun toting idiots like this fool and many, many others, abuse this right and, for some reason, make their own huge fucking arsenal and shit, with automatic weapons and hundreds of rounds of ammunition, like they're preparing for WWIII in their front lawn or something. Completely banning guns and having 0 restrictions are both asking for trouble. People suspected of suspicious activities, like this fool, should have all their shit taken away so more innocent people don't have to die. If you are cool about your guns (not shooting up everything, not showing mental issues), then I don't really care about your gun ownership status.
Conclusion
If there's a part of this you will actually read, read this part. Appreciate all that you have. Enjoy all the time you have on this Earth alive, because it could be snatched away in an instant. Be tolerant of other's beliefs/life styles (unless they greatly negatively affect others). Always stay alert. And, finally, send your condolences to Orlando and the victims' families via Social Media.
Regardless of what 'discussion' we end up having between politicians, it won't change shit. We didn't manage anything at Sandy Hooke, I doubt it changes here.
There's multiple accounts for this terrorist. His call claiming he was aligned with Isis (obviously not an sleeper cell but still), his 'family' claiming it was because he saw two gays kissing in public and got offended, and their claim he wasn't religious. As far as the FBI investigation on him, it seems it was unrelated to terror. Given what his ex said, it was probably for some restraining order/domestic abuse issues. You can't really blame them for dropping the ball here, he was a security guard at the place he shot up.
The common cause, of course, is some hatred for the LGBT community. America in particular seems to have issues with people handling themselves when they get offended, and whether religion or guns are the catalyst in this case isn't completely relevant. Both are issues, and anyone denying one or the other is just ignoring the shit stain that is Isis or the constant reoccurring theme of mass shootings in the US. This guy had a license for the guns he used, too, so there's obviously issues with the line of thought of 'register all guns'. My personal opinion is you don't need assault 'weapons' (any full auto weapon, which to me includes full auto Glock pistol variants) outside of weapon ranges and military bases. In defending yourself you very rarely need to unload a full clip at 600 rounds per minute.
At the same time, while we have Freedom of Religion, I think we need to have a long talk about where your freedoms end. As it should be, where your freedom infringes on someone else's freedom, you lose it. ie, a religion of hate towards gays isn't allowed to preach hate due to speech/religion that infringes on the LGBT+ community's freedom of expression. Gay marriage is the law of the land and it's about damn time we start enforcing it. Well, obviously a bit late. If a religion like Islam (and Christianity, don't you doubt they're guilty of it too) wants to preach hatred towards a different community, they should be taxed to whatever hell they believe in (and labeled as a cult) or have churches/mosques individually losing the right for congregation.
The scary thing is, after a result like this is when you find an overreach into personal rights. However, I'm a firm believer that you lose your freedoms when you infringe on others, and specific laws need to be made specifically to safeguard the LGBT community. And yes this requires to force people to accept different views. Tough fucking luck, if you want to go slaughter people, do it in a country that doesn't care for it's citizens.
There's multiple accounts for this terrorist. His call claiming he was aligned with Isis (obviously not an sleeper cell but still), his 'family' claiming it was because he saw two gays kissing in public and got offended, and their claim he wasn't religious. As far as the FBI investigation on him, it seems it was unrelated to terror. Given what his ex said, it was probably for some restraining order/domestic abuse issues. You can't really blame them for dropping the ball here, he was a security guard at the place he shot up.
The common cause, of course, is some hatred for the LGBT community. America in particular seems to have issues with people handling themselves when they get offended, and whether religion or guns are the catalyst in this case isn't completely relevant. Both are issues, and anyone denying one or the other is just ignoring the shit stain that is Isis or the constant reoccurring theme of mass shootings in the US. This guy had a license for the guns he used, too, so there's obviously issues with the line of thought of 'register all guns'. My personal opinion is you don't need assault 'weapons' (any full auto weapon, which to me includes full auto Glock pistol variants) outside of weapon ranges and military bases. In defending yourself you very rarely need to unload a full clip at 600 rounds per minute.
At the same time, while we have Freedom of Religion, I think we need to have a long talk about where your freedoms end. As it should be, where your freedom infringes on someone else's freedom, you lose it. ie, a religion of hate towards gays isn't allowed to preach hate due to speech/religion that infringes on the LGBT+ community's freedom of expression. Gay marriage is the law of the land and it's about damn time we start enforcing it. Well, obviously a bit late. If a religion like Islam (and Christianity, don't you doubt they're guilty of it too) wants to preach hatred towards a different community, they should be taxed to whatever hell they believe in (and labeled as a cult) or have churches/mosques individually losing the right for congregation.
The scary thing is, after a result like this is when you find an overreach into personal rights. However, I'm a firm believer that you lose your freedoms when you infringe on others, and specific laws need to be made specifically to safeguard the LGBT community. And yes this requires to force people to accept different views. Tough fucking luck, if you want to go slaughter people, do it in a country that doesn't care for it's citizens.
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