Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V5 (See Page 43 - Post #1063)

Also, Talonflame has base 81 Attack and it still manages to manifest itself as an offensive threat.
Except Talonflame can afford to run Choice Band and it has a setup move.


Also you say that Tangrowth does not always run Assault Vest, but Starmie does not always run Ice Beam either. It sometimes runs Dazzling Gleam instead to hit Dark types, and even then, Bisharp isn't weak to it.
 
B+ to B/B- hell I'd even be OK with C+ but that's not happening

Starmie is good for one thing and one thing only: Rapid Spin. Seriously. Rapid Spin is literally the only reason why this thing is even OU in the first place. This thing has nice speed but it has garbage Special Attack which hinders it from doing its secondary job: All-Out Attacking. I mean, take a look at some other hazard removers in the tier. Excadrill is much more threatening with an ability that it can abuse and a much higher attack stat, Latias has Healing Wish, Scizor has much better bulk and a much better offensive presence coupled with a priority move, etc. I also really do NOT see it on par with the rest of B+. Also, did I mention that Tangrowth has risen and that nasty Pursuit weakness?

I swear Gen 7 better introduce some actually decent spinners

So yeah, Starmie sucks ass
Huh? Starmie seems fine in B+ atm, it's a good poke but not great enough for the A ranks, looking at the ranks, it seems more suitable in A- than in B tho but isn't it why it is in B+? B-/C+ is exaggerating, it rank seems fine how it is now to be honest, it has a cool speed tier yeah but "garbage special attack" doesn't make it bad offensively, it may not have the greatest sp. atk of all powerful attackers but Hydro Pump + Life Orb + Analytic lets it hit really hard, not to mention that it has many coverage options in STAB psychic/shock, thunderbolt and ice beam. It may be used offensively or defensively but tell me something, isn't rapid spinning cool enough? It is not easy to spinblock against Starmie, it outspeeds and beats Gengar, the offensive set deals alot of damage with Hydro Pump against Mega Sableye and other ghost types are really uncommon and pretty niche in OU and i talk about pokemon such as Jellicent.

You cannot directly compare it with Excadrill, they have really different typings and spinning is the same thing they have in common, Mega Scizor isn't really suitable for Defog, it spends your mega slot and is pressured by many rockers and more vulnerable to status, Heatran is an example of a pokemon that defeats Scizor but that Starmie deals with and that's a reason to use Starmie over Lati@s too, water typing is cool and the defensive set i think that's pretty awesome, counters most Heatran sets, has Recover, deals with Keldeo really well and Natural Cure helps it set apart from other pokemon, you burn Starmie with Lava Plume or Scald? Natural Cure. You use Toxic on Starmie? Natural Cure. You use Thunder Wave on Starmie? Natural Cure.

Also, Tangrowth only beats Starmie if it's running Assault Vest which is a cool set to deal with water type attackers like it but phys. def is more common now and Ice Beam is 1HKO on that one i guess, given that's very frail on the spdef if not using AV and Pursuit doesn't seem the best argument since Latios is even more vulnerable to it and is A+, Starmie has STAB water moves to heavily damage Tyranitar so i guess that it helps. Starmie seems a totally fine pokemon to use and you are underestimating it alot for sure.

And tell me something, what does Dazzling Gleam achieve? That seems a bad move, i don't know relevant targets for that attack since Hydro Pump deals heavy damage to most Dark Types anwyay.
 

CrashinBoomBang

außerirdisch, anunnaki
is a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
i'm honestly shocked that the starmie post even exists and the 2 people before me made a good effort to respond to your post, but i want you to answer a few questions if you really do think starmie should move down

a) assume u have a hyper offensive team and you have a charizard x/sd talonflame (both fantastic pokemon on HO). do you just forgo hazard removal or do you get rid of your own stealth rocks via defog scizor which has you running around with regular defog scizor on HO (??????????), defog latias which is a fucking joke offensively and hits WEAKER THAN ANALYTIC STARMIE, or do you use scarf rapid spin excadrill sapping all of your momentum and having you get set up on? there's honestly nothing that does anything close to what starmie does on HO teams, aka spin with reliability because it actually destroys most SR users 1 on 1, not to mention that stuff like clefable aka THE mon to switch into strong, neutral stab moves, don't really want anything to do with LO analytic hydro pumps. oh and you get to pick your counters thanks to starmie having like 5 viable attacking moves in pump/shock/hp fire/ice beam/tbolt and no not dazzling gleam. what even replaces starmie??

b) vest tangrowth is 2HKO'd by ice beam after SR so i don't know why you even mention that lol. no, starmie doesn't always carry ice beam. tangrowth, even if it was everywhere, which is what you seem to imply, also doesn't even carry assault vest most of the time because people run physdef rocky helmet a ton, and even if it was, spin into zard x/talon sounds like a good fucking trade considering that tang can't do anything to either of them. how is tangrowth even relevant to this discussion?

c) i can't believe that starmie being as underwhelming and actually bad as dragalge is your honest opinion but, like, really? if anything I view it as better than half the garbage in B+ like manectric and regular latias, and it's definitely a few steps above the whole rain crew not to mention stuff like celebi and raikou. really?

d) dazzling gleam starmie okay what the fuck???? there's like 4 1/2 viable pursuit trappers (tyranitar, weavile, metagross, mega metagross, and bisharp even though pursuit bisharp is a fucking waste). out of these, the only one that wants to switch into starmie at all is assault vest bisharp (scarftar ~dies to hpump with pretty much any prior damage, weavile dies, metagross doesnt do enough damage, mega meta gets fucking obliterated), and assault vest bisharp is fucking terrible. mentioning dazzling gleam at all pretty much killed all of your credibility because every single dark type in OU with the exception of hydreigon? is hit harder by hydro pump and, in the case of their standard sets, either OHKO'd or outsped and 2HKOd. yes, they can trap starmie after something dies (although any non scarftar or weavile coming in to trap starmie even after a kill is suspect as fuck already), but considering that those pursuits are gonna be choiced a majority of the time you're gonna be fine anyway. thanks for the free setup fodder on choice locked pursuit i guess. why is this a thing?

e) cb talonflame exists on 1 bad ladder team and guess what? against something with exactly equal defenses, LO analytic hpump from starmie still outdamages talonflame, by a fair bit even. this comparison doesn't make any sense either way but i felt like i needed to address this considering that you called starmie weak and talonflame and latias "more offensively capable" lol. how exactly is starmie weak?

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 174 HP / 0 Def Escavalier: 226-267 (69.7 - 82.4%)
252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 174 HP / 0 SpD Escavalier: 242-286 (74.6 - 88.2%)

(cals not relevant, just showing that you outdamage cb talonflame by a fair bit)
 
Factor in analytic and you essentially have a free sheer-force boosted hydro pump coming off of 100 base special attack. What's switching in?

Take alook at what you said:

Starmie is good for one thing and one thing only: Rapid Spin. Seriously. Rapid Spin is literally the only reason why this thing is even OU in the first place. This thing has nice speed but it has garbage Special Attack which hinders it from doing its secondary job: All-Out Attacking. I mean, take a look at some other hazard removers in the tier. Excadrill is much more threatening with an ability that it can abuse and a much higher attack stat, Latias has Healing Wish, Scizor has much better bulk and a much better offensive presence coupled with a priority move, etc. I also really do NOT see it on par with the rest of B+. Also, did I mention that Tangrowth has risen and that nasty Pursuit weakness?

You mention AoA sets. Offensive Starmie runs either spin or recover so this isn't true/possible.

Offensive Starmie is more powerful than defog sciz.

Starmie can't abuse Analytic? What the fuck?

In order for Excadrill to become faster, it needs to be put on sand or be given scarf. scarf exca vs LO/def starmie is a debate, but tbh scarf exca isn't the most reliable spinner, and using bulky exca vs bulky starmie is no contest; bulky starmie wins for its ability to spread status, spin, and recover while still maintaining that crucial speed tier, while exca is forced to invest in bulk and taken advantage of by crap like specs volc and specs keld. If running sand rush exca, you're prety much pigeonholed into one playstyle, which is sand. And some people don't want to use sand 100% of the time.

You bring up Lati and Healing Wish; Lati's only niche is Healing Wish + Defog. Starmie has the perk of not being forced out immediately after dropping a Hydro or Scald, and being able to force a ton of switches and get far more oppurtunities to defog. It's also less vulnerable to Pursuit than other mons because PUrsuit users like Bish and Ttar can't directly switch in on it, for fear of burn or death. I'll also have you know that again, due to its ability to force switches, it gets plenty of oppurtunities to use and abuse analytic and rapid spin.
 

MegaStarUniverse

Banned deucer.
Heatran to A+ as a person who uses Heatran on 95% of all my teams i can say it deserves A+. Its extremly splashable, versatile, has great defensive presence while still having good offensive presence and offers stealth rocks and toxic to almost every battle. It Can stall break with taunt + Magma Storm. and is a great way to handle Clefable, Talonflame, M-Venusaur etc. my point is you can't go wrong with Heatran most of the time. my opinion on this.
 
B+ to B/B- hell I'd even be OK with C+ but that's not happening

Starmie is good for one thing and one thing only: Rapid Spin. Seriously. Rapid Spin is literally the only reason why this thing is even OU in the first place. This thing has nice speed but it has garbage Special Attack which hinders it from doing its secondary job: All-Out Attacking. I mean, take a look at some other hazard removers in the tier. Excadrill is much more threatening with an ability that it can abuse and a much higher attack stat, Latias has Healing Wish, Scizor has much better bulk and a much better offensive presence coupled with a priority move, etc. I also really do NOT see it on par with the rest of B+. Also, did I mention that Tangrowth has risen and that nasty Pursuit weakness?

I swear Gen 7 better introduce some actually decent spinners

So yeah, Starmie sucks ass
You are not serious I hope. Starmie on B- or C+? The only disadvantage of Starmie that keeps him from getting A- is a severe case of 4 moveslot syndrome. That thing hits like a truck on switches, or did you forget Analytic activates if Starmie attacks after the enemy action, including switches? (and maybe in the future even Mega Evolutions, but let's work with what we have).

Dazzling Gleam on Starmie? LOL. Starmie has access every coverage move a special water type would desire: Thunderbolt for oposing waters, Ice Beam for dragons and most importantly a STAB Psyshock for the fat blobs, and he can even run HP fire if you really hate Ferrothorn. Who do you want to hit with Dazzing Gleam? The only thing I can think off that is not treathened by any coverage move and that can tank Hydro Pump and the burns from Scald is Shed Skin Assault Vest Scrafty that is COMPLETELY useless.

Not even Assault Vest Tyranitar, the specially bulkiest Dark type on OU, likes to get shot by Hydro Pump, even with the support EV spread, and that is discounting the fact that AV Tyranitar sucks just like Scrafty:
252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. +1 248 HP / 180 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 190-226 (47.1 - 56%)
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. +1 248 HP / 180 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 148-174 (36.7 - 43.1%)

Nor Assault Vest Metagross. Any prior damage lets Starmie easily KO it:
252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Metagross: 165-196 (45.3 - 53.8%)
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Metagross: 129-152 (35.4 - 41.7%)

Any Dragon type gets shot down by Ice Beam, and any fighting type gets obliterated by the Psychic STAB move of choice.

Except Talonflame can afford to run Choice Band and it has a setup move.


Also you say that Tangrowth does not always run Assault Vest, but Starmie does not always run Ice Beam either. It sometimes runs Dazzling Gleam instead to hit Dark types, and even then, Bisharp isn't weak to it.
I find Choiced Talonflame ridiculous. I nickname that set TalonLame because of how ridiculously easy to take advantage of is.

I tried to use it countless times, with all times changing it to a SD set, I even tried to use it as the "flying resists destroyer" on a birdspam, and I ended giving the role to Staraptor instead, who has better coverage to hit flying resists in STAB Double Edge, Close Combat and Final Gambit,and has sligtly more immediate power even without a choice band, with the benefit of being able to use U-turn in combination with a Volt Switch user more efficiently due to being half as weak to stealth rock as Talonflame is. The phoenix-falcon got instead the role of main flying sweeper with a Bulk Up set.

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 235-277 (68.9 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 244-288 (71.5 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Speaking of it, I find Brave Bird in general underwhelming on Talonflame. The lack of recoil of Acrobatics should make it the preferent move on any not-Choice Band (IE any usefull) set.


And about hazard control. I find myself running Empoleon on any team with rock-weak pokémon, except the ones that carry too many electric-weak pokémon. That thing can outstall any defensive stealth rock user with Toxic and can defeat 1-on-1 most of the offensive ones, and he can also put his own rocks in the face of any offensive spinner and defogger not named Excadrill, who hates to switch on him due to Scald almost one-shoting, or Thunderbolt Starmie who is the only one that can heal off the status effects that Empoleon loves to spread with Scald and Toxic. He deserves more than a C+.


On the opposite side, Magnezone should drop from B+. Skarmory and Ferrothorn are becoming more rare every day, and some Skarmory carry Shed Shell anyway. The poor magnet's glory days are out for good in my opinion. I sincerely hope that he gets a cool mega or at least some decent coverage or set-up moves on the next gen to properly abuse his unique ability.

EDIT: bludz The post is not ONLY about Starmie...
 
Last edited:
The banner is outdated as fuck. Hopefully we can get an artist to do a profesionally drawn one soon, but in the meantime, I think this will be suitable for now. It's supposed to look like a massive clusterfuck by the way, seeing how OU is massively inflated with threats. Hope it's enough to get us by for now.

Here's my take on a new banner (with some ideas blatantly ripped from yours, namely the Clef centerpiece--but it is the centerpiece of the meta so idk):

 
really like the changes in the latest update n_n

B+ -> B
while it might be strange to see mega altaria so low (compared to where it used to be), this definitely seems appropriate. when it comes to the dragon dance mega altaria variants, teams are much better prepared (and they have been for awhile now lol), so to actually use it you usually end up having to sacrifice something. if you choose to forego refresh / heal bell for earthquake and / or roost for fire blast for optimal coverage, you lack longevity and are susceptible to burns. if you go with those moves, you get walled by pretty much every steel in the game... additionally, the more offensive dragon dance variants can't efficiently check all the stuff mega alt checks on paper (keldeo, electrics, zard-x, etc.) because you get easily overwhelmed. if you go with a set that only has fairy coverage, you sorta get stuck running magnezone to trap annoying steels; the issue here is that magnezone doesn't provide the defensive utility / general glue that other steels like jirachi and mega scizor provide for more offensive / bulky offensive teams. this severely restricts building, and while alt better checks the stuff you want it to check to make up for this, you also have to factor in how prior to mega evolving, alt can't really check a lot of the stuff you want it to due to different typing, shitty defenses, and a SR weakness. note: i know you don't have to run magnezone with mega alt, but it's definitely appreciated to the point where it's worth mentioning... it isn't something super major!

with the specially offensive sets, you have a few more options with the ability to go a bit bulkier with moves like heal bell and roost or more aggressive with EQ for coverage. however, specially offensive variants face the same problems dragon dance variants face: the more offensive ones struggle to check all the stuff you typically want alt to check & the more defensive / supportive ones are underwhelming offensively... this issue isn't nearly as bad here as it is with dragon dance variants though since you really shouldn't be expecting too much from specially offensive mega alt as an offensive mon on your team rofl.

finally, i really think alt lines up better with the stuff in B rank compared to the stuff in B+. everything in B+ (except maybe hippo and mew imo) is quite a bit better than it; nidoking, tangrowth, amoonguss, kyurem-b, latias, and the recent drops (mega bro and mega venu) are all quite a bit better. in B, you have things like mega aerodactyl, breloom, volc, and gastro: all of which i think are about as good as alt. i'm not comparing any of these things to mega altaria, but i think looking at what is in a certain rank is sorta necessary. simply put: a good chunk of the stuff in B+ is a lot better than alt, and a lot of the stuff in B is closer to being on the same level as alt (compared to the stuff in B+).

i think seeing dragonite next to altaria is really weird though, but whatever.

A- -> A
like mega altaria, it might be strange to some people seeing mega metagross in A-. however, i really just don't think meta is deserving of A rank. yeah it's powerful, bulky, and has a nice movepool. yeah, people have been running double punches on the thing for awhile. these things aren't new though... there haven't really been many changes to warrant a rise for metagross. if anything, the rise in rotom-w and mega scizor hurts mega metagross. furthermore, mega metagross isn't really on the same level as a lot of the pokemon in A rank. it's hard to argue that it isn't one of the more consistent performers in A-, but i think meta fits in better with pokemon like mega latias, mega heracross, terrakion, bisharp, skarmory, and jirachi. looking at A rank, you have some insanely consistent and / or threatening pokemon like mega medicham, zard-x, talonflame, mega sableye, and mega lopunny... is mega metagross really on the same level as these pokemon?

i can really see this one going either way, but i think megagross just fits in a bit better with the stuff in A- than the stuff in A.

A- -> A
while i don't really see thundurus-i as a "staple of offense" as Koiro. put it, i do think thundurus is a very threatening pokemon that can fit on quite a few offensive builds. yeah, electrics in general struggle with the omnipresent clefable and the sorta recent but not-so-recent rises in mega latias and tyranitar, but like a lot of people have pointed out already, it doesn't really struggle with the same things that these other electrics struggle with. thundurus-i has much better coverage than raikou and mega manectric, and with that comes a bit more unpredictability in what moves it's running. finally, i think thundurus not only stands out as one of the best A- rank pokemon, but it also fits in right at home with pokemon in A like weavile, mega lopunny, azumarill, etc..

i don't really think too much has changed in thundurus's favor, but i do think this is just an issue of thundurus being placed a bit too low initially in the update to the VR thread lol.

(some other things i want to bring up but don't really have that much to say on:)

A -> A+
heatran is a super splashable, versatile rocker and glue mon that really fits in with a lot of the more staple-y mons in A+ like keldeo, latios, landorus-t, rotom-w, etc.. there seriously isn't too much to say here it's pretty straightforward lol.

A- -> A
previously i really thought bisharp should rise to A rank, but my opinion on that has sorta changed over time (mainly cause the new standards for rankings are sitting with me better now). i think Koiro. really summarizes why bisharp should stay in A- well here.

A -> A-
a nom of my own i guess, but i don't really have too much to say :x. now that we've had volcanion to play with for quite awhile, it really seems like it was somewhat overhyped as this super good glue mon that really fixes a lot of problems in 1 when building a la heatran and stuff. however, volc just really isn't that great. it was a new mon and it sorta got placed highly, but now that we've had it, we can see that this placement wasn't the best. is volc really on the same level as... every pokemon in A rank? honestly i think a lot of pokemon in A- are quite a bit better than volc, but it does fit in nicely with some mons there like gliscor :p.

edit: also why the fuck is roserade still ranked i seriously don't get it this thing is so bad all it has going on is toxic spikes D:
 
Last edited:
Heatran A---> A+: agree

Heatran is a pretty splashable mon being able to blanket check a large majority of the bulky grass types blanket check clefable, destroy a lot of fat balance cores, amazing stealth rocker amazing defensive typing and also being able to be a nice splashable answer to electrics birds and stall.

Mega metagross A- -->A rank: Agree

With the drop of usage in Hippo and tank chomp mega gross has made a return once again as a threat in the ORAS OU meta. A lot of skarmory right now on fat balance are sp def hippo isn't used much rn and rotom wash is 2 hit Koed by men after rocks. Mega metagross also checks a lot of the top threats in A rank and is able to some what switch into some notable threats like mega diancie latios clef and check the likes of keldeo and Lo torn who never can switch in and check torn who lacks heat wave. Mega gross also has the bulk to live strong attacks break down a lot of fat shit as well as check some lower tier threats like breloom amoongus and mega cham. On top of all this, mega gross has the bulk to live things like scarf lando EQ balloon exca EQ life orb bisharp sucker punch and also being able to check and nearly KO a lot of walls on balance such as Heatran ferrothorn 2 hit KO standard Sab 2 hit ko rotom w after rocks act. Over all mega gross is a very underrated unprepared threat and a lot of teams who lack phys def skarm and bulky SD mega scizor see to struggle and 1 hit KO mega gross (very hard and very rare to do without some sort of item or move boost) and as well as a hard take switching into him. Mega alakazam and mega gross has different roles. Mega Sam late game cleans up and mega gross wall breaks. Both wall break and can late game clean up easily and do well on their own with the right team support and are underrated
 
yo,yo,yo so you know, i'm back but won't be as active as before, but i am liking these viability rankings for real. damn, that hippowdon in b though 0.0

been playing some ou for like the past week and i got to say heatran should be a+ for real. if you don't knock this shits leftovers off, it keeps restoring itself back up to full becoming a HUGE bitch to take down especially when your opponent has like a clefable and slowbro to pair with it. it's a monster and can take down stall teams too if you aren't dumb and let it preserve its leftovers. many people have a misconception of using heatran against stall and it can be a super valuable asset. ya'll usually just let the sableye knock off your heatran's leftovers and a no leftover heatran is not an a+ rank heatran. that is also probably a reason why people bitch about stall too

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-391474141

a competent stall player who thought wasting 40 minutes of his life to lose points was a good idea. this replay kind of shows how leftovers just brings heatran slowly to full hp again while the opponent has to deal with an onslaught of taunts and lava plumes leading to the opponent's demise. i've been blabbing of its matchup against stall a lot, but yea, leftovers heatran is the reason this pokemon should be a+ because it is the single best user of the item in ou to be honest with clefable. fire / steel typing with flash fire gives you the necessary typing to wall the best pokemon in ou in clefable. wisp sets and utility magma storm sets (not power herb beam) are great too. never have i seen a pokemon other than clef that can put work in every match as consistently as heatran. i could possible argue this thing for s rank, but i'll save that craziness for another time. so ye, a+ for heatran

also, i 100% agree with my dudet starry blanket (congratz on cc btw) with mega altaria dropping. i never thought this thing was good because mono-fairy stab is trash and the only good set is offensive dd which which asks me why not use so more powerful shit like zardx or dnite. special sets are not outclassed but there is no point when the set is mediocre to begin with. susceptibility to hazards and status with slow speed.

when i first got back, i was surprised mega metagross was in a- rank. this thing is a monster and should rise! damn chollo, you can run standard, thunder-icepunch, and even earthquake to surprise jirachis which like to switch into this these days. this thing has monstrous bulk and gets hella free switchins especially considering how powerful clefable is these days and knock off clefable getting a lot more usage means metagross has more free switch-ins. it is just a great pokemon. i don't know why it shouldn't be at least a solid a rank.
 
C+ -> B-
Mega sceptile is actually insanely threatening right now with so much stuff like Ttar, Latis, Grounds, and fat Waters roaming the tier. This thing is an absolute menace for your standard bulky offense to face, and not even your precious steels are safe from this thing thanks to the fact that it runs hidden power fire and earthquake, making its pool of consistent switchins on bulky offense very limited. It has absolutely insane speed, only outpaced by mega zam aero and certain scarfers, and more power than you'd expect backing up those leaf storms. This is definitely a very solid mon right now (better than garb like thund-t and mega gallade at least) and the vrs should reflect this imo.
I'm all for the increase in rank for Sceptile. Most switch ins against it get absolutely destroyed by its 145 SPA and Speed and stab Leaf Storm. I feel the few counters for it are skarmory to an extent, m-altaria which isn't played as much, and togekiss which is also not seeing as much play. When built around it gets arguably better than M-Manectric, but I digress. It shouldn't be a C+ mon when it is more dangerous than many of the other B- mons (crawdaunt, hydeigon, scizor, and m-Swampert). Its also a great FWG core alongside volcanion, where those two cover each other's weaknesses greatly, for those reasons, i think M-Sceptile deserves a boost in ranking.
 
Raikou should be A-. (I'm not sure if this will get deleted) It has seen an increased use due to its blistering speed and incredible special attack. Yes, it's defenses may be its weak point, but those are easily overlooked. It counters and checks many Pokemon as well as having few counters due to hidden power ice killing the main ground type threats in the meta (Landorus-Therian, Garchomp, etc etc.) It has a wide moveset too having the moves extrasensory and shadow ball which can prove effective for teams that are weak to certain Pokemon weak to those types. As electric typing is an amazing typing, having only one weakness, it's checks are also significantly reduced. It's has a decent special defense too, allowing it to live hits and dish out powerful ones with 115 base speed.It has many viable movesets such as specs, assault vest, leftovers. These sets can fit on a variety of different teams. Overall, Raikou is an excellent mon who's pros severely overshadow the cons.
 
  • Like
Reactions: amg
Raikou should be A-. (I'm not sure if this will get deleted) It has seen an increased use due to its blistering speed and incredible special attack. Yes, it's defenses may be its weak point, but those are easily overlooked. It counters and checks many Pokemon as well as having few counters due to hidden power ice killing the main ground type threats in the meta (Landorus-Therian, Garchomp, etc etc.) It has a wide moveset too having the moves extrasensory and shadow ball which can prove effective for teams that are weak to certain Pokemon weak to those types. As electric typing is an amazing typing, having only one weakness, it's checks are also significantly reduced. It's has a decent special defense too, allowing it to live hits and dish out powerful ones with 115 base speed.It has many viable movesets such as specs, assault vest, leftovers. These sets can fit on a variety of different teams. Overall, Raikou is an excellent mon who's pros severely overshadow the cons.
Sorry but you are wrong in some aspects and you are exaggerating, you want it to jump to A-, a rank that's actually really good and has many top threats o: that's a huge jump and it recently dropped to B- and a drop to C+ doesn't seem out of question either.

Offensive electrics are worse in this meta and most teams are better with the defensive utility that Rotom-W provides, mainly due to the increase of sand teams, Tyranitar and offensive grounds such as Excadrill and Landorus-T don't let Raikou shine and even if you aren't facing a sand team (ttar + exca), your opponent may have Tyranitar since it is very splashable and you don't only see it on teams with Excadrill, Hippowdon, Mega Latias and most importantly: Ferrothorn since Thundurus and Manectric beat it with Focus Blast or Flamethrower respectively.

HP Ice isn't a good argument in favor of it since more than 98% of all pokemon learn Hidden Power, i don't see it having a "wide moveset" that is really helpful for it, has the standard offense elec movepool (like Jolteon in RU for example): volt switch, tbolt, hidden power (which is ice) and some extra move (and i'm talking about the specs set here) Shadow Ball being that move, not the best thing since you don't click it often and is used to deal more damage against Lati@s who already take some damage from hp ice but shadow ball's extra damage helps yeah but sucks to be locked on it and its use is rather situational and i don't see how Extrasensory is a cool move when pokemon like Mega Venusaur and Dragalge are uncommon. Raikou's true niche in OU is Calm Mind, a rare move among electric types but i don't think it's easy to setup and a reliable boosting move, weak when unboosted and still faces competition from Nasty Plot Thundurus as an electric type

Now compare this with Thundurus and Mega Manectric, two electric types that are better, Thundurus is great and that's why it's ranked A-, the rank you suggested for Raikou and that doesn't fit it, Thundurus has more attributes since Prankster Thunder Wave is a good speed control move, if you are about to get swept you can use Thunder Wave to slow down the opponent, Nasty Plot is cool and i already told you that and has a great coverage move for electric types, Focus Blast. While this move doesn't have the greatest accuracy, it is a great coverage move on Thundurus, it hurts so many pokemon! Heatran, Kyurem-B, Mamoswine, Ferrothorn, Excadrill, Magnezone and is cool for netural coverage since 120 BP without STAB hits really hard on pokemon that don't resist it, pokemon such as Charizard X and Quagsire and not to mention that Thundurus can also run Grass Knot, HP Flying or mixed sets with Knock Off that may also include Superpower. Mega Manectric, while spending your mega slot has Flamethrower/Overheat to defeat Ferrothorn and Excadrill, a useful ability in Intimidate and more speed but still, it isn't really great, Raikou is even worse and less splashable since you only include it if you really need a pure electric type with those traits, the main excuse to use Raikou being Calm Mind.

And oh, Assault Vest isn't a good item on Raikou, what does that check anyway? Offensive electrics are uncommon now and if you badly want an Electric type that may deal with those, might as well use another set on Raikou, AV's damage is pretty underwhelming due to the lack of a boosting item and it's not hard to play around it, if you want an AV user to check sp. attackers in general, that job is better suited to Tornadus-T or Tangrowth.

Basically, it doesn't have many great attributes and faces alot of competition from other pokemon, leaving it without many use in this meta, it should drop instead of rising if anything but eh, leave it in B- for now i guess.
 
  • Like
Reactions: amg
Raikou should be A-. (I'm not sure if this will get deleted) It has seen an increased use due to its blistering speed and incredible special attack. Yes, it's defenses may be its weak point, but those are easily overlooked. It counters and checks many Pokemon as well as having few counters due to hidden power ice killing the main ground type threats in the meta (Landorus-Therian, Garchomp, etc etc.) It has a wide moveset too having the moves extrasensory and shadow ball which can prove effective for teams that are weak to certain Pokemon weak to those types. As electric typing is an amazing typing, having only one weakness, it's checks are also significantly reduced. It's has a decent special defense too, allowing it to live hits and dish out powerful ones with 115 base speed.It has many viable movesets such as specs, assault vest, leftovers. These sets can fit on a variety of different teams. Overall, Raikou is an excellent mon who's pros severely overshadow the cons.
I disagree with this rise, as I feel even B+ is a bit too generous for Raikou, let alone A- with such Pokemon as Serperior, Jirachi, and Mega Gardevoir (of the ones that aren't basically guaranteed to move up in the near future). The biggest reason is that the meta is getting bulkier, as opposed to the faster, more offensive metas that Raikou thrives in, and the kind that was running around a few months back, as it's simply too weak (115 special attack just isn't that great without a very powerful STAB or an amazing movepool/good amount of coverage, so it's far from incredible like you make it out to be) to break bulkier playstyles without or even WITH Life Orb, which, by the way, makes it even more outclassed by Thundurus (who's a far superior Life Orb attacker, as I'll go into soon).

Furthermore, it faces immense competition from Thundurus as a fast offensive electric type, who can cripple faster sweepers with Prankster TWave, is far stronger, and sets up two times faster than even CM Raikou with Nasty Plot. Also, Thundurus has a TONNE more coverage, getting options to nail many of Raikou's typical checks, such as Grass Knot for Hippowdon (who Raikou really struggles vs in particular), Focus Blast for Ferrothorn and Tyranitar, hell, Thund-I can even go MIXED, with Knock Off nailing the Latis pretty adequately and Superpower being a more reliable answer to non-Scarf Tar. Of course, Thundurus is rather low for how good it is atm, but I feel it'll rise in due time. Hell, it even faces competition from Mega Manectric, which, while it itself faces competition from Thundurus, still has better coverage in Flamethrower/Overheat, Intimidate, and a far superior speed tier. Furthermore, the only really relevant 'mon that Raikou outspeeds that Thundurus doesn't is Serperior, which Raikou isn't a fantastic check to due to how weak it is without a CM or Specs. Hell, being generous and giving Raikou a Specs or free +1 isn't even enough to be a fantastic check, as, due to the fact Serperior is VERY likely to be +2 by the time Raikou gets in, Serp OHKOs all non AV variants while Specs Raikou fails to OHKO even after Rocks and a round of Life Orb (252 SpA Choice Specs Raikou Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Serperior: 188-222 (64.6 - 76.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO), though admittedly, Serp will go down to it's own LO recoil after rocks.

Overall, it's far too niche for even B+ and is closer to B- imo, as a CMing Electric isn't that great atm, especially with Exca running rampant (though that's not a particularly huge reason, Exca's not freaking Aegislash or Primal Donner now is it) and NP Thund boosting it's special attack faster with more (and better) coverage options, and it should be nowhere near A- right now. The only thing it really has over Thundurus is being, ironically enough, a decent electric check that can beat Thundurus via SubCM sets, and there are better Electric checks out there, such as Exca in sand, Tyranitar, though it needs to be scarfed to reliably beat Thundurus, Latios, Xard (kind of), and, to a degree, Clefable (ie. the best thing in the tier). Basically, keep it B, and use Thundurus instead.

EDIT: gdi ninjad
 
Sorry but you are wrong in some aspects and you are exaggerating, you want it to jump to A-, a rank that's actually really good and has many top threats o: that's a huge jump and it recently dropped to B- and a drop to C+ doesn't seem out of question either.

Offensive electrics are worse in this meta and most teams are better with the defensive utility that Rotom-W provides, mainly due to the increase of sand teams, Tyranitar and offensive grounds such as Excadrill and Landorus-T don't let Raikou shine and even if you aren't facing a sand team (ttar + exca), your opponent may have Tyranitar since it is very splashable and you don't only see it on teams with Excadrill, Hippowdon, Mega Latias and most importantly: Ferrothorn since Thundurus and Manectric beat it with Focus Blast or Flamethrower respectively.

HP Ice isn't a good argument in favor of it since more than 98% of all pokemon learn Hidden Power, i don't see it having a "wide moveset" that is really helpful for it, has the standard offense elec movepool (like Jolteon in RU for example): volt switch, tbolt, hidden power (which is ice) and some extra move (and i'm talking about the specs set here) Shadow Ball being that move, not the best thing since you don't click it often and is used to deal more damage against Lati@s who already take some damage from hp ice but shadow ball's extra damage helps yeah but sucks to be locked on it and its use is rather situational and i don't see how Extrasensory is a cool move when pokemon like Mega Venusaur and Dragalge are uncommon. Raikou's true niche in OU is Calm Mind, a rare move among electric types but i don't think it's easy to setup and a reliable boosting move, weak when unboosted and still faces competition from Nasty Plot Thundurus as an electric type

Now compare this with Thundurus and Mega Manectric, two electric types that are better, Thundurus is great and that's why it's ranked A-, the rank you suggested for Raikou and that doesn't fit it, Thundurus has more attributes since Prankster Thunder Wave is a good speed control move, if you are about to get swept you can use Thunder Wave to slow down the opponent, Nasty Plot is cool and i already told you that and has a great coverage move for electric types, Focus Blast. While this move doesn't have the greatest accuracy, it is a great coverage move on Thundurus, it hurts so many pokemon! Heatran, Kyurem-B, Mamoswine, Ferrothorn, Excadrill, Magnezone and is cool for netural coverage since 120 BP without STAB hits really hard on pokemon that don't resist it, pokemon such as Charizard X and Quagsire and not to mention that Thundurus can also run Grass Knot, HP Flying or mixed sets with Knock Off that may also include Superpower. Mega Manectric, while spending your mega slot has Flamethrower/Overheat to defeat Ferrothorn and Excadrill, a useful ability in Intimidate and more speed but still, it isn't really great, Raikou is even worse and less splashable since you only include it if you really need a pure electric type with those traits, the main excuse to use Raikou being Calm Mind.

And oh, Assault Vest isn't a good item on Raikou, what does that check anyway? Offensive electrics are uncommon now and if you badly want an Electric type that may deal with those, might as well use another set on Raikou, AV's damage is pretty underwhelming due to the lack of a boosting item and it's not hard to play around it, if you want an AV user to check sp. attackers in general, that job is better suited to Tornadus-T or Tangrowth.

Basically, it doesn't have many great attributes and faces alot of competition from other pokemon, leaving it without many use in this meta, it should drop instead of rising if anything but eh, leave it in B- for now i guess.
Assault vest Raikou lets it take 2 hits from Azumarill, which is enough to kill it. Mega Manectric takes up a mega spot, which can be annoying especially if you've started out building with another Pokemon. Thundurus is fitted for other duties such as Prankster Twaving. Though after reading your and Niadev's comment, I can see why Raikou should stay where it is. Thank you for explaining it to me.[/quote]
 
  • Like
Reactions: amg
Assault vest Raikou lets it take 2 hits from Azumarill, which is enough to kill it. Mega Manectric takes up a mega spot, which can be annoying especially if you've started out building with another Pokemon. Thundurus is fitted for other duties such as Prankster Twaving. Though after reading your and Niadev's comment, I can see why Raikou should stay where it is. Thank you for explaining it to me.
AV doesn't have anything to do with Azumarill since that item boosts spD and Azuma is a physical attacker.
 
  • Like
Reactions: amg

Hydreigon for B rank:Very good Wallbreaker,his only hard counter is azumarill.Very good imunnity to ground types thanks to levitate and a imunnity to psychic.Has flash canoon to hit the faries, dark pulse to hit jirachi,latais,slowbro and mega metagross, earth power and superpower to hit heatran(a very commum in this meta)and fire blast for extra coverage.Many teams aren't prepared for this mon,therefore losing to him.With all being said,it's easy to see why hydreigon is decent in this meta,and i definitely can see this mon in B rank
While I think Hydreigon is better than everything in B- and actually should get bumped to B, it isn't for the reasons you mentioned.

Hydreigon excels in a bulky meta. What you have here is a fantastic bulky pivot with no SR weakness, immunity to spikes, two immunities and six resistances. Why this is so nice is because Hydreigon has a few tools that make it great against BO, stall and many balance teams. Hydreigon has access to Taunt and Roost. With its very decent 98 speed tier and the right investment, it can switch into tons of slower set up mon like Slowbro, Hippowdon, Celebi, Slowking, Heatran, Skarmory, Chansey, Mew and shut them down with Taunt. Roost and Leftovers help you last a long time this way. Also, you have a very spammable Dark Pulse STAB, strong enough to win over stall wars when they can't recover with Taunt, and with paralysis support, goes much easier with a good paraflinch rate. It's also one of the safer Volcanion switch ins. It very much benefits from a decline in Mega Altaria, and it remains a very good answer to Mega Gyarados and Mega Manectric (HP Ice is 3HKO with Leftovers with full HP, you can always Roost to full).

The other thing to note is just how good he synergizes with several great pokemon. Mega Metagross (or AV Metagross) take Dragon, Fairy and Ice attacks and can Pursuit trap the Latis and threatens Clefable and Mega Diancie with Steel STAB. a bulky Mega Scizor is another great partner, making for better blocks with U-Turn and Bullet Punch for faster threats. Jirachi of course is good for spreading paralysis and Wish. Rotom-W is another naturally bulky partner that can burn or paralyze. While these games are admittedly quite old, they still do demonstrate what its capable of.

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou-231438733
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-216318015
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-231674833
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou-242793882
Naturally it suffers against fast offensive threats and Fairies like Weavile, Terrakion, Volcarona, Keldeo, Clefable, etc. But it really does pull its weight, and I mean consistently. The current meta is the best its been in a while for Hydra.

Also, I second nominate Mega Sceptile to B-. Biggest thing against it is the opportunity cost, but it plays very well on a Voltturn team with hazards. A decline in Mega Venusaur and Mega Altaria are both good news for it, as is a rise in bulky Ground and Waters, particularly Rotom-W.
 
rotom wash thundurus and magnezone are the only good electrics In The current meta especially rotom wash. Thundurus is very good against stall and balance depending on its move set and is a very hard mons to switch into. Magnezone has a niche of being able to trap ferro skarmory and scizor. Also it can trap jirachi sometimes too the only steel type it can trap is mega metagross and can very rarely trap Heatran. Lastly rotom w is the best pivot in ORAS OU and is very splashable thanks to its amazing typing. raikou and mega manectric on the other hand are only good against offense require a lot of support right now and fall flat versus balance aand cant break through mega latias clef and t tar. All 3 electrics i mentiowned can check and rarely trapped by t tar while none of them can break through mega latias unless sometimes magnezone and magnezone and NP thundurus being able to break through clef the rotom w is a pivot still it hates mega latias or dragons and fairies in general
 
  • Like
Reactions: amg
Can someone please educate me on why you'd use Mega Sceptile over Serperior? Stronger base damage? It just seems like there is no reason to use him over Serp but I don't know a lot about Mega Sceptile so I'd like to know. (I like Sceptile too so maybe I can use this knowledge to build a squad idk)
 

HailFall

my cancer is sun and my leo is moon
Can someone please educate me on why you'd use Mega Sceptile over Serperior? Stronger base damage? It just seems like there is no reason to use him over Serp but I don't know a lot about Mega Sceptile so I'd like to know. (I like Sceptile too so maybe I can use this knowledge to build a squad idk)
Much better speed to outspeed slow scarfers like ttar and fast mons like manectric and lop, stab dragon pulse, having fire and ground coverage at the same time, and much more immediate power (almost double) are the main reasons. No one is arguing for it to be ranked the same, it's three subranks lower even if a rise were to happen.

Edit: also immunity to twave is a very big deal
 
Can someone please educate me on why you'd use Mega Sceptile over Serperior? Stronger base damage? It just seems like there is no reason to use him over Serp but I don't know a lot about Mega Sceptile so I'd like to know. (I like Sceptile too so maybe I can use this knowledge to build a squad idk)
It may spend your mega slot and not have contrary but dang it, it's worth it. The speed tier is really high, being one of the fastest pokemon in the tier, more immediate power yeah, that's important since it can fire a strong Leaf Storm/D Pulse right away and standard attacker Serperior can use HP Fire but that leaves it walled by Heatran, Sceptile has EQ to deal with it and still has Lightning Rod as an ability, may be helpful against Thunder Wave, mainly from Thundurus, i love using Sceptile in this meta and it seems great, agree that it should rise to B- rank.
 

bludz

a waffle is like a pancake with a syrup trap
is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
We have a new banner now. Thanks to Emrysthemay for the artwork!

Also the ranking team has agreed to do a mini-mini-update.

Heatran A -> A+

We all pretty much agreed that Heatran fits the bill for A+. It's a strong glue mon that compresses a lot of roles. It's good at applying to offensive pressure (particularly to Steels) without requiring offensive EVs which is part of why it's a good mon at breaking down fatter builds, along with Lava Plume + Toxic killing just about everything bar other Heatrans lol. Being one of the best Scizor checks (rise of speedy tran) is pretty big given how threatening Scizor is to a lot of teams.
 
AV doesn't have anything to do with Azumarill since that item boosts spD and Azuma is a physical attacker.
That statement was incorrect I meant thought it raised Special Defense. But it helps switch into Mega Manectric, Manaphy, Keld and Charizard Y!

It may spend your mega slot and not have contrary but dang it, it's worth it. The speed tier is really high, being one of the fastest pokemon in the tier, more immediate power yeah, that's important since it can fire a strong Leaf Storm/D Pulse right away and standard attacker Serperior can use HP Fire but that leaves it walled by Heatran, Sceptile has EQ to deal with it and still has Lightning Rod as an ability, may be helpful against Thunder Wave, mainly from Thundurus, i love using Sceptile in this meta and it seems great, agree that it should rise to B- rank.
I disagree. I do not have enough time to explain to you now, but I will reply to you later. Though Mega Sceptile boasts amazing speed and great typing, it's ability isn't the best. Having lightning rod is not useful as it 4x resists electric. It is out sped by many scarf users and is a frail Pokemon in general, being 4 times weak to ice and having many many more weaknesses. Especially when trying to make use of it's Lightning Rod ability, it can switch into electric types, though getting punished if the Pokemon has a move that covers its weakness. It makes it a 50/50 and quite dangerous for Mega Sceptile. Personally, I don't believe that Mega Sceptile belongs up there with the likes of Metagross and Scizor. Furthermore, it's moveset is small and its not too diverse either.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • Like
Reactions: amg
That statement was incorrect I meant thought it raised Special Defense. But it helps switch into Mega Manectric, Manaphy, Keld and Charizard Y!



I disagree. I do not have enough time to explain to you now, but I will reply to you later. Though Mega Sceptile boasts amazing speed and great typing, it's ability isn't the best. Having lightning rod is not useful as it 4x resists electric. It is out sped by many scarf users and is a frail Pokemon in general, being 4 times weak to ice and having many many more weaknesses. Especially when trying to make use of it's Lightning Rod ability, it can switch into electric types, though getting punished if the Pokemon has a move that covers its weakness. It makes it a 50/50 and quite dangerous for Mega Sceptile. Personally, I don't believe that Mega Sceptile belongs up there with the likes of Metagross and Scizor. Furthermore, it's moveset is small and its not too diverse either.
Citing basic flaws about a Pokemon that everybody is aware about is not going to convince anybody. Being 4x weak to Ice isn't as disastrous as you state it to be because Landorus-I was 4x weak to Ice, yet it was banned from OU. Mega Sceptile may not be able to utilize Lightning Rod as well as other Pokemon, but discouraging Prankster Thunder Wave from Klefki and Thundurus is pretty huge, especially since Mega Sceptile relies on its speed as much as it does. Mega Sceptile is a revenge killer by nature and is not going to be switching into many attacks to begin with. Having a small movepool is also irrelevant because Mega Sceptile can at least make use of the coverage it has with proficiency, only really having an issue with bulky Grass-types (with the exception of Ferrothorn).
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top