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I'm 100% accepting of any member of the LGBTQ community but I seriously don't get or feel comfortable calling people ze/ve/ge or any other pronoun other than he/she/they or other regularly used pronouns. Would they be fine with gender neutral pronouns or am I just being a dick?
I identify as male, but I don't know how someone who identifies off the gender binary can seriously expect to be called by their preferred gender in a one or two time setting, or even those that identify as one gender but appear as another. The most poignant example for me was this person that identified as male, but lived in an all-female dorm. They demanded to be referred to as male, but also demanded that they be allowed to live in the all-female dorm so they could live with their girlfriend. So obviously in the first two meetings I refer to them as female because not only did they look female, they lived in the specific all-female dorm, but they would get annoyed at being referred to as female. I feel like that should be reserved to people they meet on a regular basis, ie. at the friend level so you should feel a bit more obligated or comfortable with using it, but to expect people to "adapt" immediately I think is a little ridiculous, especially if it's some bizarre gender like ze/ve/ge/whateverthefucke.
Like, I get marginalization and how it feels to be a minority, but come the fuck on you're not a dick for just defaulting to gender neutral.
Oh it's that exciting time of year when this thread is full of non-trans and binary people explaining the trans nb experience. Thrilled to be here you all
Oglemi you might know what marginalisation feels like but you don't know what it feels like to be nb, or what dysphoria feels like I'm assuming. I know I don't expect to be read correctly. I expect to be read as a girl in all irl settings. I tolerate it. I hate it. My dysphoria makes me suicidal.
Whenever I am asked how I would like to be referred to, or given the opportunity to refer to myself, or am talking to someone in my family, I correct them to gender-neutral terms of address. If I'm given the option on a form, I'll select non-binary/other/prefer not to say, Mx., things like that. Paperwork is agonising because I often have to give myself a feminine title. Note that we already ask people how they want to be addressed! One of the things that makes me happiest, that I think should be a fairly basic courtesy, is asking if you don't know, or at least being graceful about being corrected. You know, like if you got someone's name wrong for example, or mispronounced the name of someone with a name from a culture you're unfamiliar with, or a cis person who is often mistaken for the wrong gender corrects you, except there's a component to gender where it's so deeply embedded in society and the way we identify that while many people don't care how they're addressed, some people really do. If someone is irritable when they correct you why do you assume it's something wrong with their transness instead of one of the millions of things that could be informing their mood or attitude at the time? Consider also that you're just one straw in a huge bundle
'How should I refer to you?' isn't so far from 'What's your name so I know what to call you'. And if you're unsure, it's a great one
Also if someone wants neopronouns and doesn't want they/ze whatever sure it's hard to adapt but yes you're being a dick if you intentionally ignore that request sorry. I personally only want they used for me and something like ze/hir/etc. would feel wrong and I wouldn't even know I was being addressed by it but if it were being used by someone who didn't know me and just used that as their default gender neutral it has never bothered me. Another analogy that isn't the same but might help is that of people who make unusual name changes; you're a dick for disregarding it if they really want to be called that, but maybe you don't care for them or their acquaintance so you don't mind being a dick, that's on you and you're choosing to be a dick for your own reasons. Maybe you fuck up once or twice because you knew them as something else but if they matter to you you make an effort to learn to think of them as their new name
Finally it's actually quite easy to default to gender neutral sorry, it's a change you can yourself make, and it's pretty horrible to call someone's gender 'bizarre' because they prefer different pronouns, so I'm kind of shocked you made that post, Oglemi. Here's another analogy: the adaptation of singular they vs. he/she, and gender-neutral names for jobs, stripped of transness and viewed in the context of cisness
Being nb myself the change was easier since it's how I think about myself, and I don't think many people expect perfection, but it's equally unreasonable to expect people not to feel hurt when you're wrong, even if they know it's not your fault, because it's painful that you can't automatically get it right, it's painful to realise that you're not perceived that way. It's a chronic hurt that's acutely provoked. And it's outright illogical to expect people not to be hurt when you intentionally ignore their wishes about their identity
As for the person in the dorms no comment because I don't know their gender id and it doesn't look like you made a lot of effort to find out
talking about complex gender ids
I know a guy who ids as agender, is trans-masculine, and is sometimes ok with she pronouns but prefers he, but hates they
It actually makes perfect sense if you know him and there's a lot of logic behind it wrt. how he thinks about gender, and he's extremely reasonable I assure you. It's also extremely easy to deal with him because you just call him 'he' but for example you wouldn't say he's a man, he's a person. That's literally the only adjustment you have to make and knowing the logic it's just how I've come to think of him. He just corrects people periodically when people start getting confused that he's agender but wants masculine terms of address and that's a-ok. If he were just an acquaintance it would be easy to make mistakes, as people do, but if I met him repeatedly I would stop making them, as I have since he is a friend
Fyi when I first discovered non-binariness and that it resonated with me (age 14), I asked people rather frivolously to refer to me as male on certain days of the week and female on the other days so I could pass it off as a joke (I was quite ashamed) and test out gender performance. I never expected people to remember that, I'd just announce what today's gender was, but it was serious and led to an evolution of my gender id. Why am I telling this story? To explain that stuff that looks stupid outwardly might have a reason
Naming and labeling has always struck me as a bit odd.
My IRL name is abbreviated quite often (it's a very common name). In a couple of situations, I've introduced myself with the unabbreviated form, and some of my friends were shocked and I got a few people ask 'is that what I should call you?', is 'variation' ok? They seemed to place more importance on my name than I ever had. I've changed my name for irc/smogon, and used whatever variations people came up with. But I've never gotten the impression this is the same for everyone. I generally call people whatever I want to call them, but if a strict preference is made then I'll try to follow it.
To me a name is just another part of language, used to clarify exactly who is being referred to. I grew up with a few people with difficult names, such that they ended up using a variety anglicized names instead. Being particular about names never really struck me as important, but I understand this is not the case for everyone. I tend to view pronouns from the same angle.
I think there should be only 1 (or 2 pronouns, I think singular/plural is an important split) that can be used for anyone. Grammatically that seems like it would be sufficient. But from my perspective, this is a thought along the same lines as abolishing time zones and embracing the metric system. It seems like a decent idea, but it affects me so little that I haven't thought about the potential issues it might cause others. I don't understand the importance people associate to names or to pronouns, but there's no real problem with using them as requested. I'll get annoyed when someone has a name that isn't pronounced phonetically (fuck Geoff), but if its my friend I'll deal with it. At the same time I will forget who prefers to be referred to by which pronouns, but I'll probably make an effort to remember.
I don't know how I would feel in a world with only one mode of pronoun, or how language would change; I would prefer it, I think, but I know many people wouldn't. How do I know this? Because of the impetus behind how people don't like how it is now. I know how I feel in this one, with the English language constantly evolving. I would rather pronouns be gender-agnostic (rather than explicitly gender-neutral, just totally irrelevant to gender: singular vs. plural, btw). Of course, in this world that's affected by the contrast that in our language pronouns are determined by gender (which is why some people don't like gender-neutral pronouns, that feeling of being 'degendered').
I really like Japanese because of the emphasis on names, relations, and context, even though it is gendered and increasingly gendered as it adapts to Western norms; I'm only otherwise familiar with French, which I find really difficult to deal with (languages that assign gender to words).
It's an interesting thing to me to think about, I guess. I'd love it if I could just be called Alice and a singular universal pronoun without 'she' just logically following from my name being a 'girl's name'
If we're to take 'everyone has a personal pronoun and that's their name [+ a universal pronoun]' at face value then consider that while changing to use people's names would be extremely awkward and radical for us now, in another world there's no reason why it wouldn't work
But it doesn't in this one
edit: that being said, it's interesting nb people make people think about the arbitrariness of gender-based pronouns,.....
in that case, isn't there an imperative for fully neutral pronouns? Something that doesn't even convey gender (like he/she/ze). Let's face it, you can tie yourself up in knots trying to guess which pronoun is appropriate: you could offend a staunchly feminine/masculine person by using a genderfluid pronoun, just like you could offend someone genderfluid by using he/she. Avoiding the topic of gender entirely seems the most sensible thing to do, because it doesn't get brought up implicitly.
Honestly thinking about it a bit the idea of using gender-based pronouns is utterly pointless and is purely convention we've adopted. In conversation if gender needs to be conveyed that can be done explicitly - in a way the implicit conveyance of this information provides a vector for discrimination. Gender is not necessary for a pronoun to fulfill its grammatical purpose, is it?
We do have a fully neutral pronoun - it. It's just offensive to use it because it's dehumanizing. Gender is sort of part of the function of pronouns presently, though I agree that it doesn't have to be tha way and its pretty arbitrary that gender identity and pronouns are linked. I believe that in some languages, age is a part of pronoun function, for example - do we really need to know how old someone is while also revealing tense? (of course not)
It is offensive but it is also very confusing. When the same pronoun applies to the subject and all of the objects in every sentence, meaning will get lost very quickly. Look at how many times the above posts have used it already. There is no need to add yet another use to it.
We wouldn't add another use to it because of the social stigma anyways; tons of people won't even use it to refer to animals. I just think its difficult to try to create a word that fills a technical niche that already exists, espcially since any use of that word would be politicized instantly.
We do have a fully neutral pronoun - it. It's just offensive to use it because it's dehumanizing. Gender is sort of part of the function of pronouns presently, though I agree that it doesn't have to be tha way and its pretty arbitrary that gender identity and pronouns are linked. I believe that in some languages, age is a part of pronoun function, for example - do we really need to know how old someone is while also revealing tense? (of course not)
yeah sorry I did not mean using "it" - rather, using a gender-neutral pronoun that is reserved for people, where no assumptions about the person are made apart from being a person.
Oh it's that exciting time of year when this thread is full of non-trans and binary people explaining the trans nb experience. Thrilled to be here you all
disappointing to see you're as snarky as ever. Especially since a lot strife from mislabelling people comes from ignorance as well as xenophobia, which you're not doing any favours for by coming out with hostility. I mean for fuck's sake, you just mentioned someone who considers themselves agender yet is masculine? That might be completely logical to you, but for us cisgender plebs it makes no sense. Why not share the wealth and enlighten us to help prevent this kind of conflict. (I appreciate that you are generally contributing to the discussion but that snark is really needless, I expect better from moderators)
I have as much right to feel hostile as you do to intentionally abdicate empathy for convenience, possibly more, and I think it's sad you chose to focus on a throwaway one liner where I expressed dry frustration with the rudeness in the thread over the rest of my conciliatory post. The tone wasn't over the line at all
The reason I mentioned that person was to say that I've known people with identities like that in good faith, because Oglemi's post seemed to imply bad faith. If my explanation was unclear I apologise. The reason is the difference between masculinity, which someone of any gender may strongly identify or present with, and being a man
And there's no reason a cis person can't understand anything a trans person can, even if they don't innately
I'm probably going to get a lot of hate for saying this, but I feel that I need to say something.
It is human nature to judge a book by its cover; if someone's physical appearance has characteristics of what we would commonly associate with one of the two sexes (intersex being excluded since there aren't really common tropes appearance-wise associated with that sex) using the term "sex" in place of "gender" since someone's sex is their biological "gender", rather than their "gender identity" or however they feel about themselves mentally, then more often than not, we'll automatically come to the conclusion that the person we're examining is whatever sex we assume them to be until proven otherwise, even if it goes against our normal morals, the human brain automatically assesses people before we can even think twice.
Ultimately, there's no way around it without wearing a shirt that displays to everyone to refer you to by something in particular. The best thing to do is understand that people will get things wrong, and that morals of what the world should be have little to no application to what the world really is, all we can do is accept the world for its flaws and try to live a content life. The only people that would ever be at fault for simply referring to someone would be people purposefully wrongly referring to a person in an attempt to trigger a response from them, those people are dicks.
The whole concept of gender-based pronouns really confuses me, as well. It seems like these should be very rare situations, yet there seem to be so many instances... the whole convention would really only apply to conversations involving 3 or more people, since with just 2, you only need to use 2nd person speech.
I mean, I understand that I'm sending this statement through a system that directly involves conversing with several people, but the thing is, nobody online really knows you and your life, so it can't really be applied here since most people online have the innocence of not knowing otherwise.
It's likely just my personal life experiences that are molding my judgment here, since I'm a little bit of an introverted person that doesn't really interact with people in real life all that much.
I also can't really say that I'm well acquainted with all the intricacies of the lgbtq realm, so if there's anything misinformed and/or unintentionally insensitive that I said above, please know that I meant no offense and I would be delighted to be taught otherwise.
Finally it's actually quite easy to default to gender neutral sorry, it's a change you can yourself make, and it's pretty horrible to call someone's gender 'bizarre' because they prefer different pronouns, so I'm kind of shocked you made that post, Oglemi. Here's another analogy: the adaptation of singular they vs. he/she, and gender-neutral names for jobs, stripped of transness and viewed in the context of cisness
I used bizarre because to me they're entirely made up. There is no complete collection available or any way to properly use or identify on sight what pronoun to use with someone when they prefer one of the ze/ve things. I would call you obstinate if you ignore the fact that these genders seem pop up out of nowhere to match specifically how an extremely tiny population of people feel in regards to gender.
If you actually read the last line of my post though, you'd see I said you're not a dick if you default to gender neutral, and no it's not difficult to. I used my anecdote to detail though how sometimes it's completely ridiculous how someone who identifies off the norm of the gender binary to expect on first contact to be properly referred to by their preferred gender.
And no, I am absolutely not going to ask "And what gender do you prefer?" after I ask for someone's name. Not at this time, because in the current climate, asking that question would get me more hatred than not asking it for the tiny population that would actually appreciate it.
Sorry your dysphoria makes you suicidal, but I think that has more to do with your depression and need for clinical help than being dysphoric alone.
I used bizarre because to me they're entirely made up. There is no complete collection available or any way to properly use or identify on sight what pronoun to use with someone when they prefer one of the ze/ve things. I would call you obstinate if you ignore the fact that these genders seem pop up out of nowhere to match specifically how an extremely tiny population of people feel in regards to gender.
You don't have to identify people on sight, though. If they correct you regarding what they prefer, just listen and move on. If you make a mistake, apologize. Nobody actually wants to argue that point unless it keeps happening: from my own experience it's mostly just a matter of wanting the conversation to be over.
Nobody's really asking to have the pronoun conversation inserted into regular language, except maybe in the context of a full-scale paradigm shift regarding how western culture looks at gender (which, surprisingly, has benefits for more than just trans/NB folks). They're just asking that you (collective you) keep an open mind regarding identities and pronouns. Gender is a mess and it's impossible to fully explain it without abstract terms or compare it to others' experiences, it shouldn't be surprising that people use abstract terms that fit their own life. Even moreso because gender's pretty strongly tied to culture in a way that is definitely not universal. Language is "made up" and constantly evolving, trying to enforce a standard that you (collective again) don't really want to understand hurts more people than whatever small minority it directly relates to (never mind that not bothering with respect and understanding because it only affects a small population is kind of questionable in its own right - it's tantamount to telling someone you won't use their name because you don't like the way it sounds).
I mean, a quick Google search confirms that dysphoria =/= suicidal thoughts or depression, though it may accompany it like how many emotional, behavioral and cognitive disorders tend to accompany each other. As far as I'm aware dysphoria is the state a person feels when they feel they don't fit the currently defined roles that society has created for people to fit in, in this case gender dysphoria being those that don't fit the gender binary. (and if you argue that dysphoria isn't a disorder like how homosexuality isn't a disorder, then it really shouldn't be = to depression, which is a disorder, should it)
I mean, a quick Google search confirms that dysphoria =/= suicidal thoughts or depression, though it may accompany it like how many emotional, behavioral and cognitive disorders tend to accompany each other. As far as I'm aware dysphoria is the state a person feels when they feel they don't fit the currently defined roles that society has created for people to fit in, in this case gender dysphoria being those that don't fit the gender binary. (and if you argue that dysphoria isn't a disorder like how homosexuality isn't a disorder, then it really shouldn't be = to depression, which is a disorder, should it)
I mean, this goes back to Jumpluff's point about people explaining the trans/NB experience over trans/NB people. A "quick google search" shouldn't invalidate what people are actually saying, nor does your own lack of understanding invalidate something that they can actually feel.
It's sort of the same thing with pronouns; arguing that people should fit into neat boxes without giving them a say in it, and then complaining when they try to adapt the boxes to suit themselves or refuse the comparison outright. It's very hard to assume good faith under those circumstances: even the argument about how trans/NB people should teach is hollow when people refuse to listen and learn, at least from my experience.
I mean, this goes back to Jumpluff's point about people explaining the trans/NB experience over trans/NB people. A "quick google search" shouldn't invalidate what people are actually saying, nor does your own lack of understanding invalidate something that they can actually feel.
It's sort of the same thing with pronouns; arguing that people should fit into neat boxes without giving them a say in it, and then complaining when they try to adapt the boxes to suit themselves or refuse the comparison outright. It's very hard to assume good faith under those circumstances: even the argument about how trans/NB people should teach is hollow when people refuse to listen and learn, at least from my experience.
So do you think dysphoria is a disorder then? Do you think it's directly linked to depression and that you (or if not you personally they) should seek help for it?
Because depression and suicidal thoughts are not healthy.
Also I don't know where I said that people need to fit certain boxes, you can prefer whatever pronoun you want and ask me to follow it, my point was that you shouldn't expect to be called what you want at face value, especially when there's no classification for what it is that you want to be called, and that people are not dicks for defaulting to using gender neutral when faced with uncertainty or uncomfortability on how to refer to someone due to unfamiliarity.
So do you think dysphoria is a disorder then? Do you think it's directly linked to depression and that you (or if not you personally they) should seek help for it?
Because depression and suicidal thoughts are not healthy.
I mean... just as a whole, the comparison is pretty disrespectful. It doesn't matter how one relates to the other or whether it's worse if it's only being brought up to discredit them. If that wasn't your intent, it's hard to read anything else out of it.
Also I don't know where I said that people need to fit certain boxes, you can prefer whatever pronoun you want and ask me to follow it, my point was that you shouldn't expect to be called what you want at face value, especially when there's no classification for what it is that you want to be called, and that people are not dicks for defaulting to using gender neutral when faced with uncertainty or uncomfortability on how to refer to someone due to unfamiliarity.
I'd agree that people aren't dicks for defaulting to neutral pronouns. They're not really even dicks for defaulting to a gendered pronoun, realistically speaking - that sort of thing is so ingrained in western society that it's pretty hard to unlearn. The point is what happens after: making excuses or complaining that the whole thing is made up is fairly dickish: their identity is their identity, it's not something they would make up solely to inconvenience people or provoke arguments.
I mean... just as a whole, the comparison is pretty disrespectful. It doesn't matter how one relates to the other or whether it's worse if it's only being brought up to discredit them. If that wasn't your intent, it's hard to read anything else out of it.
pluff said directly "my dysphoria makes me suicidal"; no, that's something else, not the dysphoria. The dysphoria may be contributing to the depression and wanting to commit suicide, but it's not equal to depression or having suicidal thoughts, which you seemed to imply in your response.
I'd agree that people aren't dicks for defaulting to neutral pronouns. They're not really even dicks for defaulting to a gendered pronoun, realistically speaking - that sort of thing is so ingrained in western society that it's pretty hard to unlearn. The point is what happens after: making excuses or complaining that the whole thing is made up is fairly dickish: their identity is their identity, it's not something they would make up solely to inconvenience people or provoke arguments.
when words have to be created to describe yourself, you're literally making up an identify to fit yourself to describe to others. i'm complaining about the fact that there does not exist a compendium of what these are, and that new ones seem to pop up all the time, not complaining that people may not fit the gender binary and need something to identify with.
pluff said directly "my dysphoria makes me suicidal"; no, that's something else, not the dysphoria. The dysphoria may be contributing to the depression and wanting to commit suicide, but it's not equal to depression or having suicidal thoughts, which you seemed to imply in your response.
Worth mentioning that different people experience dysphoria at different levels of severity, and for many it is enough to actually cause suicidal thoughts/tendencies or depression. At this point you're just being pedantic because even though dysphoria alone isn't always the only cause of suicidal thoughts/tendencies in people that experience it, its is almost always a major factor.
As for language and identity. Above all else words are tools, and with regards to identity they are tools to help a person describe and understand how they personally experience attraction, gender, etc. Sometimes they can't find a word that adequately explains their experience, so they create a word that does. This isn't "inventing a new identity" it's naming an experience that already exists. It's the natural evolution of language.
Things can get a bit heated in discussions about social issues (particularly when LGBTQIA+ people are the topic), but for the most part people here are very supportive. If there's anything you want to discuss here, feel free to bring it up. I know I'm not the best at welcoming people, but I hope you find whatever it is you need here.
1. Stop assuming about the choices other people have or have not made in regards to their struggles with their lgbtqia experience.
2. Stop pushing the straw man of non-binary people who are murdering your firstborn and salting your crop fields when you refer to them as the wrong pronoun without any prior warning. It doesn't fucking happen remotely as often as its claimed and if it does the one blowing it out of proportion is probably you in how offended you are by their brief exhibition of impatience and frustration.
I'm going to bow out of this conversation now that I'm being gaslit about my mental health, which is severely below the belt and assumes psychiatric knowledge superior to that of my own doctors, rather than people actually wanting to be educated about dysphoria.
Agender Nerd's post is accurate, and a cursory investigation will reveal that it is normal for dysphoria to manifest with depressive symptoms.
Incidentally, I'd say it's pretty functionally anti-queer to ignore suicidal queer people on the basis of their ideation (mine is being treated, not that anyone had a right to know), as the proportion of queer people who are suicidal is at crisis level. So I'd implore people to at least alter their thinking on that, given the suicide of LGBTQ youth is one of the more pressing issue the community faces.
