Announcement SM OU Suspect Process, Round 2 - Dirt

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I saw this coming at some point, and when even actual Stall Players are noting the uncompetitive arguments against one of Stall's greatest assets, it says something about this mon's effect on the metagame.

Dugtrio's boost to attack and the metagame slowing down just a tad compared to last gen does it a lot of favors as a trapper. As of right now, the only OU relevant mons that outrun Dugtrio without an item or boost as Tapu Koko, both Greninjas, and Pheromosa, and I think it fair to say these aren't what come to mind when Defensive teams prepare for Stallbreakers in particular. Dugtrio's Base 100 Attack doesn't seem like much, but STAB Earthquake off of that is enough for its role, in which unlike other offensive mons Dugtrio isn't dealing with prediction or switches to bulky walls. It's not cracking down entire cores, but it's enough to deal with offensive threats after at most a bit of wear and tear, which is the name of the game for Stall teams.

With the increasing number of (viable) threats in OU, the load on each individual team slot only gets greater and greater. Thus, the cost of losing a mon in (optimistically) a 1-v-1 to Duggy becomes a larger hit to the team's performance as well. With the increase in ATK from "needs to hit SE" to "actually kind of passable with high BP coverage", the list of mons it can be considered a solution to got larger, while they have more weight on their backs in the metagame at large to value their preservation. It's also a Catch-22 to play against Dugtrio: the less important a mon is to the opposing team match up, the less ideal a choice it can be to bring them in for momentum reasons or risk of offering set up bait, and vice versa. Since Dugtrio doesn't allow switch counterplay, there's not really a risk to bringing it in if the chance is created, meanwhile you have to keep your most valuable mons vs the Duggy team off the field because of it, so the ones who in theory do the most work can end up doing the least work in practice, whether from hesitation or from getting picked off by Dugtrio before their work is put in.

I admittedly can't add much that hasn't already be said, but I do agree with the decision to start with Dugtrio. Its stats aren't spectacular in their own right, but in the context of being a near uninhibited trapper, they're well above the numbers they need to be at. It says a lot to me that Dugtrio Stall has turned Hoopa-U, a mon that was S-Ranked (even ignoring the ban) in ORAS OU for its ability to eat defensive cores/teams alive, into a mon that is at best hanging around a very crowded A- tier and just generally doesn't see much discussion anymore, indicating it's not likely to move up or down. Just one example, but whether Arena Trap or the mon itself, it shows just how important Dugtrio is to Stall as a playstyle to prepare as and against.
 

6ft Torbjorn

formerly JoycapJoshST
it is an article of tiering philosophy to ban mons and not to create a patchwork of ability bans; that is to say, unless they're absolutely necessary (power construct is only found on one Mon, strangely creating less collateral damage with the ability ban than by banning Zygarde-10 and Zygarde-c). So There are obviously exceptions but the drizzle + SS ban situation is something that is better avoided as it's a complex ability ban.
That just sounds lazy tbh, not creating patchwork to ban abilities. So with ST we just went off gut instinct? And no I'm not saying that ST shouldn't have been banned (after some of the s**t I've seen), I just think it's a bit dangerous not doing our homework, and leads to prejudice of individual mons that utilize abilities / moves obviously not fit for the metagame, yet in the latter case we give a "nah fam it's fine" attitude to it all (it's the reason I bought up DD but I'm not allowed to discuss it anymore due to the pillocks that jumped to conclusions and mocked me... ugh...).

If anything, I think Duggy would be a good time to employ a little bit more depth into our tiering policy without thinking it's 'complex' or 'impossible', which is the reason people are torn between Dugtrio itself or Arena Trap. Aegi without KS is one example I can think of if we wanted to add more depth to the tiering mentality, as neither were considered outright 'broken' by standard defination. For some reason, I've seen a few people saying that a KS ban would fall under a 'complex' ban... and I don't see it (+ it's the key to those '50/50s' that you all have PTSD attacks about).

Again. Neutral on Duggy. I just want to put my two sense on things. Something wrong with that?
 

6ft Torbjorn

formerly JoycapJoshST
Sorry for the one-liner but i used to mod OU so i'm allowed: we don't ban parts of pokemon.
Well that's just lazy then... Game Freak doesn't give balance patches like, say, Smash 4 - and I think it would make the game more dynamic if we took up the judgement call for ourselves. Besides... didn't you guys nerf Baton Pass into the ground? Is that not same difference?
 
I'm gonna pass over all the talk about tiering policy and complex bans cause that's a separate discussion. Arceus finally granted us the suspect we've always wanted, plz don't derail it.
___________________

I don't care about stall; I know how to play around stall, I know how to beat stall. I don't care about HO; I know how to handle this playstyle as well. Both of these, and everything in between, can be reasonably handled with diligent preparation so that matchup issues are rare.

I care about Dugtrio. This poke has been doing what it does for more than a decade, so why is it an issue now? Dugtrio is a mole. It's been around since the beginning of pokes (but we can ignore the first couple gens before it got AT), and as the years pass we've ignored it, brushed it under the carpet because there are more pressing issues or it doesn't get enough usage to warrant suspect discussion. But in the last decade we've let this mole problem grow and grow and now we've got to deal with full-on cancer.

This is among the most mindless pokes in existence. All you need in order to effectively use it is a calculator.
"Hm this specs keldeo just KOd my poke, but it has 44% health. Can I remove it lemme calc:
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Keldeo: 148-175 (45.8 - 54.1%) -- 49.2% chance to 2HKO
cool I earned a KO!"

It should be obvious what the issue here is. The Keldeo user has literally NO COUNTERPLAY. There are 0 options.

"Uncompetitive - elements that reduce the effect of player choice / interaction on the end result to an extreme degree, such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant."

Ok there was 1 thing the Keldeo user could do to avoid this. They could have not KOd that poke.
When the counterplay to a mon consists of actively hindering your own interests in battle, something is wrong.

Not to mention the effect that a Dugtrio in the back has on a team that includes one of it's main targets. If you have a ttar or heatran on your team, every turn you might want to switch them in or keep them in to make a move once they are in, you risk losing that mon, with NO COUNTERPLAY, to Dugtrio. This forces bad plays, because even if the Dugtrio user never brings Dug in, you always have to play like it will be coming in if you want to keep your mons.

Dugtrio has always trapped Heatran and TTar. The reason this mole has grown into cancer is that back in the day, Dugtrio itself was the counterplay to otherwise tier-dominating threats.
But with every new threat introduced to OU, and every new gen's power creep, our old standby powerhouses and tanks are now on the back foot, trying to fend off such a great number of threats while, hopefully, pushing your own gameplan further. So the very same mons that used to need to be kept in check are now the mons we use to keep the new threats in check. The one thing that hasn't changed, however, is Dugtrio. It's still there to remove our tanks, opening up holes that other threats can exploit very, very easily, because with the number of threats we have, it's likely what they removed was your only solid answer to whatever they're bringing in now.

I haven't gone for reqs or really laddered in two years, but you better believe I'm getting them for this.

Ban dugtrio
 
The only problem with your argument here is that Blaziken, an otherwise frail Pokémon, has Speed Boost. They could have banned Speed Boost rather than Blaziken itself, as that was the main thing making it broken, but Blaziken in combination with SB was overpowering. If other Pokémon with the ability are not as troublesome, then it is most likely the Pokémon itself that is the problem.
i dont understand this post at all. are you assuming that we are looking for a complex ban of dugtrio + arena trap bc stupid shit like digglet and trapinch also get arena trap and arent even close to being as good as dugtrio? (which is, IMO, a really weak argument to begin with).

to not derail this discussion, i would've prefered this to be extended against arena trap in its entirety, but i can deal with dugtrio getting the ax since its the main offender of said ability, which makes an already too matchup dependant metagame even worse in that same perspective, gives an astronomic amount of support to stall as a playstyle in general to the point of being nearly unbeatable, also can support mons on offense like pheromosa, pretty much has every tool that it needs as a trapper in its movepool to function perfectly, due to its ability to setup rocks, revenge kill with sucker punch, reversal, etc., and the simple fact that a mon with these traits exists restrics teambuilding. get rid of it please.
 

Lady Alex

Mew is blue
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
I'm fairly neutral about this suspect test. I think a dugtrio suspect is justified, but I think that the timing of it is wrong. One of the issues about Dugtrio that's been brought up is that there are already limited measures to deal with a lot of the big threats right now and that Dugtrio exacerbates the problem. My problem with this line of reasoning is that there are a few outlier examples in the tier that need to go (hi greninja and metagross) in order to adequately answer the question "are there really so few answers to prominent threats in the tier that Dugtrio seriously harms the metagame by its unique role?" The answer might be yes, that even after we remove some potentially broken threats, Dugtrio is inherently problematic, but I would rather find out then than preemptively ban Dugtrio when the problem lies elsewhere. I'm more inclined to think that the overall power level of the tier is too high and that lowering it is a healthier way of shaping the meta. If I participate this round, I'm going to vote to keep Dugtrio in OU.
 
I think calling Dugtrio "uncompetitive" doesn't tell the full story. Pursuit users and Magnezone are not being suspected, despite them removing player choice. And it's because they're inconsistent and they have an opportunity cost. It takes less to make trapping broken compared to other elements of Pokemon, but there's still a bar that needs to be cleared.

Dugtrio clears it. It is both uncompetitive and incredibly good at its job.
 
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I largely disagree with the notion that dugtrio and arena trap itself are uncompetitive, due to the fact that Dugtrio's role on a team is fairly one-dimensional, and it is easily brought down to focus sash (or KO'd) by any single attack. Additionally it gets very few free switchins other than on a telegraphed u-turn, parting shot, or volt switch; these two factors mean that Dugtrio is often times going to be traded for an opposing threat unless facing an extraordinarily ground-weak team. I understand that dugtrio can be fairly difficult to play around given a poor team matchup, however it has an extremely difficult time succeeding in the face of bulkier teams without many grounded mons. Its viability on offensive teams is also extremely limited by the omnipresence of hazards which cripple its effectiveness at trapping and eliminating key threats such as QD Volcorona, MegaGross, and various scarfed mons. I think that Dugtrio requires careful support to be effective in its offensive supporting role, and by taking simple countermeasures (getting up hazards + pressuring the defog user) the threat of it trapping half your team can be avoided.

Obviously getting hazards up in the face of stall can be extremely difficult, however this brings me to my next point: Dugtrio is not necessarily broken on stall teams, but it places such a heavy tax on teambuilding that it makes accounting for all playstyles nearly impossible. I thoroughly enjoy playing stall teams, because I enjoy using slower offensive teams with high unboosted damage output, which stall generally struggles to deal with effectively. Trapping is easily avoided through the use of strong Ghost types such as Gengar, Marowak, and Chandelure, as well as flying types such as Landorus-T, Charizard-Y, and Tornadus-T. However, stall-proofing an offensive team often makes it extremely weak to opposing offensive builds when failing to OHKO one of the opponent's 3 boosting sweepers can spell out a quick loss.

I would argue that Dugtrio should be banned, not for the fact that its trapping ability and offensive presence are broken or uncompetitive, but more for the fact that it places heavy restrictions on teambuilding. While I will avoid any at-length discussion about a complex ban or Arena Trap ability ban, I think that the same concept does not apply to Diglett and Trapinch, simply because Dugtrio relies on its speed tier to be an effective trapper. Therefore, banning Arena Trap would practically be the same thing as a Dugtrio ban, because the other Arena Trap users have only a fraction of Dugtrio's viability.

I believe that in a metagame without so many boosting sweepers, Dugtrio might be able to stay, however its presence currently makes teambuilding more of a choice than anything else: would you rather lose to stall, or offense? I have yet to see a good solution to this dilemma, and I believe that in the interest of a healthy metagame, banning Dugtrio simply makes the most sense. Counterplay to Dugtrio is simply a matter of teambuilding, just as counterplay to stall is simply a matter of teambuilding. I would vote no-ban if someone could point me in the direction of a stall-proof team that has solid answers to HO as well.
 
I'm fairly neutral about this suspect test. I think a dugtrio suspect is justified, but I think that the timing of it is wrong. One of the issues about Dugtrio that's been brought up is that there are already limited measures to deal with a lot of the big threats right now and that Dugtrio exacerbates the problem. My problem with this line of reasoning is that there are a few outlier examples in the tier that need to go (hi greninja and metagross) in order to adequately answer the question "are there really so few answers to prominent threats in the tier that Dugtrio seriously harms the metagame by its unique role?" The answer might be yes, that even after we remove some potentially broken threats, Dugtrio is inherently problematic, but I would rather find out then than preemptively ban Dugtrio when the problem lies elsewhere. I'm more inclined to think that the overall power level of the tier is too high and that lowering it is a healthier way of shaping the meta. If I participate this round, I'm going to vote to keep Dugtrio in OU.
I'm genuinely confused here. If I was to attempt to summarize this it sounds like you're saying not to ban Dugtrio simply because you feel other threats need to go first? Personally, that just sounds ridiculous.

-------------------

Now unless I missed it, I don't think it was brought up in this thread. It was in another but another point for banning Dugtrio is the affect it has on the opponent without even entering play.

When Dugtrio is used properly to trap something, it almost guaranteed to grab the KO barring very rare circumstances.

So what happens when what should be the "best" moves to make in a scenario suddenly go 100 to 0 real quick as it becomes the worst move thanks to Dugtrio trapping you?

Because the opponent realizes that the "best" move is actually a bad move they have to start playing like shit and making sub-optimal moves until Dugtrio somehow is beaten because the actual good moves are suddenly all wrong.
 

Lady Alex

Mew is blue
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
I'm genuinely confused here. If I was to attempt to summarize this it sounds like you're saying not to ban Dugtrio simply because you feel other threats need to go first? Personally, that just sounds ridiculous.
That's a bad summary. If you're going to say something is ridiculous, you should attempt to back it up. I'm not convinced that Dugtrio is actually worth banning, especially given that the arguments for banning are mostly related to how it makes checking some of the most threatening pokemon in the tier unfeasibly hard. I don't think the issue is with Dugtrio. I think the issue is a handful of mons that are over-the-top in how strong they are.
 
I'm fairly neutral about this suspect test. I think a dugtrio suspect is justified, but I think that the timing of it is wrong. One of the issues about Dugtrio that's been brought up is that there are already limited measures to deal with a lot of the big threats right now and that Dugtrio exacerbates the problem. My problem with this line of reasoning is that there are a few outlier examples in the tier that need to go (hi greninja and metagross) in order to adequately answer the question "are there really so few answers to prominent threats in the tier that Dugtrio seriously harms the metagame by its unique role?" The answer might be yes, that even after we remove some potentially broken threats, Dugtrio is inherently problematic, but I would rather find out then than preemptively ban Dugtrio when the problem lies elsewhere. I'm more inclined to think that the overall power level of the tier is too high and that lowering it is a healthier way of shaping the meta. If I participate this round, I'm going to vote to keep Dugtrio in OU.
That's a bad summary. If you're going to say something is ridiculous, you should attempt to back it up. I'm not convinced that Dugtrio is actually worth banning, especially given that the arguments for banning are mostly related to how it makes checking some of the most threatening pokemon in the tier unfeasibly hard. I don't think the issue is with Dugtrio. I think the issue is a handful of mons that are over-the-top in how strong they are.
I think you're attempting to draw a correlation where there is none. Dugtrio and the handful of OP threats are unrelated. Dug doesn't trap ninja and only traps MMeta if sash is intact. The problem exists in the general OU tier, not at the very top. Dugtrio is trapping A+/A/A- etc. mons that make up the meat and bones of the meta. With Dugtrio gone, these mons have a much easier time handling the big threats (NOT ninja, but things like Lele and MSab and other top-tier, but not busted threats). This leads to a balanced meta.

Greninja is unaffected by dugtrio. It's checks are the same regardless (Dug doesn't kill tangrowth, it doesn't trap phero or koko cause u-turn [edit: unless scarf ofc]).

So the argument is not "it makes checking some of the most threatening pokemon in the tier unfeasibly hard," as the checks to our potentially broken mons don't care about Dug. It's the rest of the meta, the bulk of the meta, that is affected. Things like TTar, Volcarona, Heatran, Exca, Chansey, Volcanion, ZardX, I don't need to list everything it kills here, but the point is that none of these mons (except chansey) were doing anything to Greninja regardless. These are separate issues, and both need to be addressed, but don't combine the two.

AND a HUGE part of this issue that this post ignores is that Dugtrio is the ultimate revenge killer. It gets guaranteed revenge kills, which also has nothing to do with greninja or mmeta.
 

jpw234

Catastrophic Event Specialist
6v6 singles is essentially incapable of handling general trapping abilities (Arena Trap and Shadow Tag). You're meant to use switching to create advantageous matchups and then take advantage of them - can't do that when a Dugtrio is in play. Even though it's frail there's a plethora of ways to get it in free - VoltTurn/BP/doubling/Focus Sash/just sac a mon - and then pick up a free kill. Duggy puts all the pressure on the opponent to play perfectly and all the forgiveness on the user, who can at worst let it do its job just by letting a Pokemon die.

Tiering policy framework:
II.) Uncompetitive - elements that reduce the effect of player choice / interaction on the end result to an extreme degree, such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant
If we're smart we'll quickban Arena Trap and Shadow Tag from every singles metagame from now until the end of time.

Edit: Also to those saying Duggy is the problem not Arena Trap, a thought experiment: is there any currently-OU Pokemon that could get Arena Trap and not subsequently become broken? If the answer is "no" or even "almost no" (which it is) then it's the ability.
 

Tele

a quality human being
I think the council and everyone else supporting the ban is making a blunder.

Dugtrio has been claimed to be the progenitor of the stall craze due to its incredible utility in trapping, and has thus led to further questioning of the role it plays in the metagame. In order to address a direct problem relating to the outcry against stall, we have decided due to popular consensus in the council and in the community, to suspect test Dugtrio.
"Dugtrio has been claimed to be the progenitor of the stall craze" by who exactly? When you think about stall throughout the 6th generation, you definetely see it as an issue. And if you think about it more attentively, the first time stall became problematic coincides with the release of Sablenite. That's when Gothitelle stall was created. After Gothitelle's ban people started to look for new ways to build stall. Gothitelle was initially replaced with a pursuiter like Weavile, then later the same year Dugtrio Stall became very popular and that's when people started to realize how good Dugtrio could perform. Now, imagine if we ban Dugtrio: I am very sure people would go back to use something like Tyranitar or Weavile; and while those 2 pokemons aren't as efficient as Dugtrio, they are still able to perform some of the things Dugtrio does, like trapping common threats like Hoopa, Lele and Metagross-Mega and killing them with Pursuit. As long as Sableye-mega stays in the tier, Stall will always be problematic to handle. By definition, offensive teams heavily rely on setting hazard with a fast lead early in the game, and preventing the opponent to defog the field with a taunt user: Sableye prevents all of that, which leads me to state the following:

Sableye Mega has always been the prerequisite when building a good stall, not Dugtrio. Which is why I firmly believe banning Dugtrio isn't the right thing to do and I hope this post will convince as many people to vote no ban.
 

Soul Fly

IMMA TEACH YOU WHAT SPLASHIN' MEANS
is a Contributor Alumnus
I would have personally liked the meta develop for a few more months before this suspect. i think what makes Dugtrio interesting is not it's stats, or it's ability but how the conjunction of the two allow it to exploit momentum in a new way, thanks to it's recent buff which (just about!) qualifies it to the niche for the first time. It shares similar traits to certain mons we've banned but at the same time quite unlike them. This is generally exacerbated in a meta which is (as of now) a slow brawl between bulky hard-hitters.

I generally think momentum-strats are not fully explored in this gen, and most people generally have a very shallow understanding of choice/skill as restricted to a 1v1 matchup. Factoring in the probability of a U-Turn, tighter contrl of game flow, and teching/adapting your playstyle accordingly is something that I've only started seeing in the mid-to-high ladder only very recently. Granted one could say that for most momentum based brokemon (5th gen gene comes to mind), but dugtrio is generally more vulnerable than most other things we have suspected before. Given his typing and stats even before the match the teambuilder has to prioritize between survivability v. utility (scarf v. sash/darkium z) in order to either maximize its support role as a trapper or guarantee a minimum impact; and also needing sufficient support itself so that it isn't fucked if it sees any of the greninjas (or to a lesser degree a pheromosa). Then comes the telegraphed volt-turns in matches. Unlike some of the other past-momentum mons, its garden-variety typing and defenses means that switching in isn't a walk in the park and it needs a certain degree of prediction and skill to do so, you have a limited window of opportunity and a hope the opponent lets you do the obvious. You only get so many chances, and it becomes harder if your opp gets rocks down. Sheer speed isn't the only way to take him on - a well-played scarf mon, a strong priority (provided they aren't in sucker punch range), getting commonly outpredicted once or twice when you're coming in... among other things makes its life difficult. It's a damn good revenge killer, but only if you can come in and KO in one shot w/ move+prio. this you can only do so reliably if you've worn down the wallbreaker to the point where you can pick it off.

To round it off, I think Dugtrio's wincon is a tad bit more complex than people are making it out to be. For it to be consistent and optimal you need: (1) A solid momentum component in your team in order to make sure you don't have to kill off a pokemon every time you need to safely trap w/ dugtrio, b/c losing pkmn in a stall setup generally has a higher opportunity cost than in offense. (2) A way to consistently maintain pressure with dugtrio so that you can actually wear down bulky wallbreakers in the first place, (3) A strong independent Greninja/scarfnuke check so that you don't have to auto-forfeit everytime you see one, and (4) Strong, consistent hazard control(or maybe just pro wish-passing skils? jk) to ensure dugtrio can maintain pressure and remain a threat long enough to do its job; it is really bad at staying healthy - I cannot stress this enough - your game should be strong enough to allow dugtrio to switch in a minimum of three times and still be able to consistently produce that vital game-turning moment without placing too high a toll on your team. All of these factors mean that Dugtrio just can't be c/p'd into any team (or any stall team for the matter) and be expected to work. A factor that is imo the strongest dispute against its claim to brokenness; as using it for stall de facto restricts you to a certain pool of pkmn.
As far as I have seen, w/o a momentum based componenent, it seems to be most threatening in a very specific combination with M-Sab/Clefable/Chansey/Skarmory/Toxapex. The overall template is a static one, and people have begun to realize that.

In conclusion, is it broken? I'm on the fence. It is very probable it might be. Like many others here, my first impulse is one of deep annoyance when I see stall with Dugtrio. But it would be irresponsible to say its unstoppable. I am learning to play against it, and in my limited incursions I have seen people develop techs/playstyle changes in response to it. It is possible to shut it out of the game, and it is possible to lose with it. Whether a versatile enough counterplay can be developed against this aforementioned combination w/o hurting teambuilding is something I don't quite know. A lot of conditional threats already place an opportunity cost on teambuilding, so excessively singling out Dugtrio for it would be unfair; an absolute application of this logic should lead to a Stealth-Rock suspect test, but (thankfully) that's a boundary we haven't broached. In either case I consider it an unripe apple to pick. I would be sad to see it go at this particular juncture, because it has the potential to open up new ways to play the singles format. If it does however it wouldn't be completely unreasonable, it is quite horrific at times.

What I can definitely say is that we can have a more nuanced discussion on choice and strategy beyond "hey can I switch yo???".

Peace.
 
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jpw234

Catastrophic Event Specialist
I generally think momentum-strats are not fully explored in this gen, and most people generally have a very shallow understanding of choice/skill as restricted to a 1v1 matchup. Factoring in the probability of a U-Turn, tighter contrl of game flow, and teching/adapting your playstyle accordingly is something that I've only started seeing in the mid-to-high ladder only very recently. Granted one could say that for most momentum based brokemon (5th gen gene comes to mind), but dugtrio is generally more vulnerable than most other things we have suspected before. Given his typing and stats even before the match the teambuilder has to prioritize between survivability v. utility (scarf v. sash/darkium z) in order to either maximize its support role as a trapper or guarantee a minimum impact; and also needing sufficient support itself so that it isn't fucked if it sees any of the greninjas (or to a lesser degree a pheromosa). Then comes the telegraphed volt-turns in matches. Unlike some of the other past-momentum mons, its garden-variety typing and defenses means that switching in isn't a walk in the park and it needs a certain degree of prediction and skill to do so, you have a limited window of opportunity and a hope the opponent lets you do the obvious. You only get so many chances, and it becomes harder if your opp gets rocks down. Sheer speed isn't the only way to take him on - a well-played scarf mon, a strong priority (provided they aren't in sucker punch range), getting commonly outpredicted once or twice when you're coming in... among other things makes its life difficult. It's a damn good revenge killer, but only if you can come in and KO in one shot w/ move+prio. this you can only do so reliably if you've worn down the wallbreaker to the point where you can pick it off.
A lot of words that don't mean anything...actually most of what you said is why Dugtrio is good?

Given his typing and stats even before the match the teambuilder has to prioritize between survivability v. utility (scarf v. sash/darkium z) in order to either maximize its support role as a trapper or guarantee a minimum impact
It's versatile and is capable of guaranteeing an impact on a game?

You only get so many chances, and it becomes harder if your opp gets rocks down. Sheer speed isn't the only way to take him on - a well-played scarf mon, a strong priority (provided they aren't in sucker punch range), getting commonly outpredicted once or twice when you're coming in...
I read "you typically get multiple chances to bring it in and if your opponent mispredicts once they lose a Pokemon"

It's a damn good revenge killer, but only if you can come in and KO in one shot w/ move+prio. this you can only do so reliably if you've worn down the wallbreaker to the point where you can pick it off.
It can reliably guarantee KOs on Pokemon that get worn down? Or not, if they're not bulky or if they're weak to a move it's carrying (Volc/Heatran/Zone)

For it to be consistent and optimal you need: (1) A solid momentum component in your team in order to make sure you don't have to kill off a pokemon every time you need to safely trap w/ dugtrio, b/c losing pkmn in a stall setup generally has a higher opportunity cost than in offense. (2) A way to consistently maintain pressure with dugtrio so that you can actually wear down bulky wallbreakers in the first place, (3) A strong independent Greninja/scarfnuke check so that you don't have to auto-forfeit everytime you see one, and (4) Strong, consistent hazard control(or maybe just pro wish-passing skils? jk) to ensure dugtrio can maintain pressure and remain a threat long enough to do its job; it is really bad at staying healthy - I cannot stress this enough - your game should be strong enough to allow dugtrio to switch in a minimum of three times and still be able to consistently produce that vital game-turning moment without placing too high a toll on your team.
Yeah for Dugtrio to be good all you need is some way of gaining momentum (every good team) (or just sac a Pokemon), some way of doing chip damage (every good team), a check to one of the most devastating S-rank Pokemon (every good team), and hazard control (most good teams). And if you don't have those components your Duggy might only have one chance to force your opponent to predict perfectly or lose a Pokemon.

In conclusion, is it broken? I'm on the fence. It is very probable it might be.
lol

I would be sad to see it go at this particular juncture, because it has the potential to open up new ways to play the singles format.
Yeah I can definitely see how disallowing switching is gonna open up new ways to play singles. Maybe you should expand on that
 

toshimelonhead

Honey Badger don't care.
is a Tiering Contributor
For the tryhards @finchinator out there, I have posted links to the replays in the SPL matches that have featured Dugtrio.

Week 1

Reyscarface vs Mazar
reyscarface's team:Clefable / Chansey / Dugtrio / Skarmory / Sableye / Toxapex
Mazar’s team: Charizard / Dugtrio / Buzzwole / Tapu Fini / Excadrill / Zapdos

Mazar switches Dugtrio in on turn 17 against Toxapex. Dugtrio does not OHKO Toxapex with Tectonic Rage, while Scald OHKOs Dugtrio.
Rey gets Dugtrio in on turn 19 against Excadrill. Dugtrio does not OHKO Excadrill, but lives a Drill EQ with a Focus Sash.

Sweepage vs. Hector Hard Mode
Sweepage's team: Venusaur / Volcarona / Jirachi / Dugtrio / Tapu Fini / Rotom-Wash
Hector Hard Mode's team: Volcarona / Tapu Fini / Metagross / Landorus-Therian / Tangrowth / Garchomp

Sweepage OHKOs a +1 Volcarona on turn 8 with Stone Edge. Gets Pursuited by Mega Metagross.

Week 2

blunderr vs. DESTINY DEVICE
blunderr's team: Clefable / Chansey / Dugtrio / Skarmory / Sableye / Toxapex
DESTINY DEVICE's team:Dragalge / Scizor / Dugtrio / Magearna / Tapu Koko / Landorus-Therian

Blunder sends in Dugtrio on turn 40 to trap Tapu Koko. Tapu Koko U-Turns out. Destiny Device sends in Dugtrio on turn 59 against Toxapex. Dugtrio does 60% with Earthquake, while Toxapex OHKOs back with Scald.


njnp vs. Eo Ut Mortus
Eo's team: Greninja / Landorus-Therian / Metagross / Heatran / Magearna / Tangrowth
NJNP➏神's team:Marowak-Alola / Venusaur / Charizard / Bronzong / Tapu Fini / Dugtrio

NJNP sends in Dugtrio on turn 19 to trap and OHKO Heatran. NJNP later sends it in on turn 48 to finish off Ashninja with Sucker Punch.

Poek97 vs Adam
Adam uses boilerplate stall. On turn 10, Adam traps Hoopa and KOes it with Earthquake.
Adam sends out Dugtrio on turn 20 vs Tapu Fini. Immediately switches to Chansey.
On turn 23, Poek97 mega-evolves Pinsir and OHKOs Dugtrio with Return.

Mencemeat vs. Lysergic
Mencemeat's team: Dugtrio / Latios / Ferrothorn / Volcarona / Gyarados / Tapu Koko
Lysergic's team: Metagross / Greninja / Pheromosa / Bisharp / Marowak-Alola / Tapu Bulu

Mencemeat sends in Dugtrio on turn 23 to revenge kill Ashninga.
Mencemeat sends in Dugtrio on turn 35 against Megagross to use Memento. Paralyzed Volcarona doesn’t pull through for Mencemeat and he ends up losing.


FlamingVictini vs. TDK
FlamingVictini's team: Landorus-Therian / Magnezone / Tapu Fini / Hydreigon / Nihilego / Celesteela
TDK's team: Dugtrio / Skarmory / Sableye / Blissey / Amoonguss / Pyukumuku

TDK uses Pyukumuku stall with Dugtrio.
On turn 11, TDK uses Baton Pass on Pyukumuku to OHKO Magnezone with Earthquake.

Reyscarface vs. ChillShadow
reyscarface's team: Clefable / Chansey / Dugtrio / Skarmory / Sableye / Toxapex
ChillShadow's team: Heatran / Ferrothorn / Hippowdon / Aerodactyl / Tapu Fini / Hoopa-Unbound

Rey sends in Dugtrio on turn 26 against Hoopa-U. Hoopa-U Kos Dugtrio before it gets to attack.

Week 3

Snowy vs. GeeMick
Snowy's team: Zygarde / Dugtrio / Volcarona / Persian-Alola / Tapu Fini / Bronzong
GeeMick's team: Landorus-Therian / Zygarde / Ferrothorn / Pheromosa / Greninja / Magearna

Snowy sends in Scarf Dugtrio against Greninja and takes a Gunk Shot to lose 92.4% of its health. It then OHKOs Greninja with Earthquake and 64% damage to Pheromosa before fainting to U-turn.

ABR vs. FlamingVictini
ABR's team: Pelipper / Ferrothorn / Kingdra / Landorus-Therian / Tapu Lele / Kabutops
FlamingVictini's team: Dugtrio / Scizor / Keldeo-Resolute / Landorus-Therian / Tapu Koko / Gengar

Dugtrio not even used.

Sabella vs. Mencemeat
Sabella's team: Mimikyu / Dugtrio / Tapu Fini / Magnezone / Nihilego / Charizard
Mencemeat's team: Alakazam / Kartana / Landorus-Therian / Marowak-Alola / Magnezone / Tapu Fini

Dugtrio gets a free switch into Magnezone to KO with Earthquake.
Dugtrio then gets to switch into Kartana, Focus Sash intact, to KO with Reversal.

P2 vs. dragonuser
p2's team: Pheromosa / Garchomp / Venusaur / Magnezone / Bronzong / Dugtrio
dragonuser's team: Greninja / Landorus-Therian / Heatran / Tangrowth / Gengar / Metagross

On turn 14, p2 switches Dugtrio in against Scarf Gengar. Scarf Gengar switches out into Landorus-Therian. On turn 18, p2 traps Heatran with Dugtrio to OHKO with Earthquake. Dugtrio then uses Memento on turn 31 to set up for Pheromosa, which sweeps with Quiver Dance + Ice Beam.

Reyscarface vs. mael
roughneck mael's team: Hydreigon / Magnezone / Landorus-Therian / Garchomp / Ferrothorn / Mimikyu
reyscarface's team: Volcarona / Dugtrio / Latios / Ferrothorn / Magearna / Hoopa-Unbound

On turn 15, Dugtrio revenges +2 burned Mimikyu with a combination of Earthquake and Sucker Punch.

Week 4
Ciele vs. Gingy
iamgingy's team: Alakazam / Garchomp / Rotom-Wash / Ferrothorn / Tapu Lele / Pheromosa
Ciele's team: Skarmory / Chansey / Dugtrio / Alomomola / Clefable / Zapdos

Ciele sends out Dugtrio turn 1 as a lead, then switches out. Ciele later sends out Dugtrio on turn 9 to revenge kill Garchomp. Ciele sacs Dugtrio later.

PDC vs. nedor
THE PDC SHOW's team: Swellow / Dugtrio / Toxapex / Scizor / Clefable / Skarmory
NEGOD's team: Pheromosa / Metagross / Rotom-Wash / Ferrothorn / Garchomp / Latios

PDC switches in Dugtrio on Latios on turn 19, poisoning the Rotom-W switch in. PDC later tries to revenge kill Megagross on turn 26, but Megagross Kos with a +1 Bullet Punch.

Cicada vs. NJNP
Cicada ★'s team: Mamoswine / Mimikyu / Bisharp / Pheromosa / Greninja / Charizard
NJNP➏神's team: Tapu Fini / Shiftry / Charizard / Bronzong / Comfey / Dugtrio

NJNP never gets a chance to use Dugtrio before forfeiting.

Mencemeat vs. Leftiez
Mencemeat's team: Charizard / Dugtrio / Tapu Fini / Celesteela / Ferrothorn / Hydreigon
Lef♱iez.''s team: Bronzong / Landorus-Therian / Tapu Fini / Thundurus / Tyranitar / Venusaur

Dugtrio switches in on Thundurus 3 times. The first two times, Leftiez switches to Bronzong, while on the third time, Dugtrio pursuits Thundurus and faints it. Dugtrio also gets a free switch in against Tyranitar to KO it with Earthquake.

Hector Hard Mode vs. GeeMick
Hector Hard Mode's team: Rotom-Wash / Pheromosa / Alakazam / Tapu Bulu / Dugtrio / Jirachi
GeeMick's team: Pheromosa / Gengar / Landorus-Therian / Rotom-Wash / Heatran / Metagross

Dugtrio does nothing.
 
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INSANE CARZY GUY

Banned deucer.
Using dugtrio to say wipe mega meta off isn't an end all, if they switch in lando, gyrados, buzzwole or anything that isn't afraid of of rock/quake+ filler or they drop dugtrio,s attack to where it can't get the kill, they traded dugtrio for a mon but given You a free set up unless they run something wacky like aa/toxic/memato.

Tapa bulu can also be ran on Your team to make sure dugtrio can't also get the free ko however I will admit that at most should only give You 1-2 turns to play with something otherwise trapped till dup trio might want to come in
 
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INSANE CARZY GUY

Banned deucer.
Dugtrio kills _______ lando comes in and gives a free dance or garchomp, gyrados, buzzwole, beast boost(or quiver dance) and etc. Dugtrio getting its kill can be costly if the other team can build around turning that into momentum.
 
Also to those saying Duggy is the problem not Arena Trap, a thought experiment: is there any currently-OU Pokemon that could get Arena Trap and not subsequently become broken? If the answer is "no" or even "almost no" (which it is) then it's the ability.
Any OU Pokemon that got Huge Power would become broken, but that isn't a case for banning Huge Power itself. There's a difference between an ability that's inherently broken and one that's merely great. Is Arena Trap one of those abilities? We'll find out after the suspect.


Dugtrio kills _______ lando comes in and gives a free dance or garchomp, gyrados, buzzwole, beast boost(or quiver dance) and etc. Dugtrio getting its kill can be costly if the other team can build around turning that into momentum.
Every time you kill something in Pokemon, the opponent gets a free switch-in. That's not specific to Dugtrio.
 
Is Dugtrio borked? Yeah, it definitely is. It puts a huge strain on teambuilding and takes away one of the most important aspects of the game in switching. Its ability is honestly Shadow Tag all over again. The fact that it can only trap grounded Pokemon really isn't all that major and still allows it to trap and eliminate the most common stallbreakers. This is what makes Dugtrio broken, it can eliminate a huge number of threats which would otherwise run through stall unrivaled, allowing it to make the matchup almost unlosable for its team.

But moving on from all that, the point I wanted to make with this post is that banning Dugtrio wouldn't solve the problem. Others have already brought up Diglett in this thread, and while it might seem like a meme, it actually picks up the same KOs the duggy does in most cases. Here are some calcs.

252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 520-616 (160.9 - 190.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 364-432 (112.6 - 133.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Magnezone: 484-576 (172.2 - 204.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Magnezone: 336-400 (119.5 - 142.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Dugtrio Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 520-612 (167.2 - 196.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Diglett Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 272-324 (87.4 - 104.1%) -- 25% chance to OHKO (just needs a bit of chip)
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-X: 248-294 (83.5 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard-Mega-X: 174-206 (58.5 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 414-488 (114.6 - 135.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Excadrill: 288-342 (79.7 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (once again, just needs a bit of chip damage)
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Marowak-Alola: 254-300 (97.3 - 114.9%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Marowak-Alola: 176-210 (67.4 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (this is the only calc where the power drop is significant in my opinion, but it's not huge, especially since this isn't taking more bulky sets into account which even dugtrio can't OHKO)
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 252-296 (73.9 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 176-210 (51.6 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Xurkitree: 362-428 (117.9 - 139.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Xurkitree: 254-300 (82.7 - 97.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock


So yeah, the drop in attack is really not that bad for Diglett. What's most annoying is the speed tier, since it can no longer outspeed Scarf Magnezone, Volcarona, Jirachi, MMeta and has to speedtie with Lele and Kyurem-Black, but nevertheless it still traps and eliminates a lot of common stallbreakers and could potentially become nearly as threatening as Dugtrio. My point is that if something like Diglett can get Arena Trap and almost as much strain on teambuilding as Dugtrio does, then clearly banning Dugtrio isn't the solution, it's banning the ability.
 

hecatomb

Banned deucer.
6v6 singles is essentially incapable of handling general trapping abilities (Arena Trap and Shadow Tag). You're meant to use switching to create advantageous matchups and then take advantage of them - can't do that when a Dugtrio is in play. Even though it's frail there's a plethora of ways to get it in free - VoltTurn/BP/doubling/Focus Sash/just sac a mon - and then pick up a free kill. Duggy puts all the pressure on the opponent to play perfectly and all the forgiveness on the user, who can at worst let it do its job just by letting a Pokemon die.

Tiering policy framework:


If we're smart we'll quickban Arena Trap and Shadow Tag from every singles metagame from now until the end of time.

Edit: Also to those saying Duggy is the problem not Arena Trap, a thought experiment: is there any currently-OU Pokemon that could get Arena Trap and not subsequently become broken? If the answer is "no" or even "almost no" (which it is) then it's the ability.
I have to disagree with, "there is no why out of things like Arena Trap" Because you can get out with U-turn or baton pass. Though if they dont have those things they lose. Then again I dont agree with Arena Trap being allowed, cause its just plain boring to play against. The only reason why Dug is in OU is cause of Arena Trap, if it didnt have it, more than likely no one would use it. So I think Arena Trap should be banned.
 
Hello, I am rather new to smogon and have been using stall in the mid 1500's on Ou ladder and disagree heavily with dugtrio being broken. Since it seems atm the biggest problem with dugtrio is its usage on stall I will give my argument as such.
From reading comments stating it strains team building too much, I personally think this is a bad argument as you can say so with many mons. Every team has multiple Mega Metagross checks what is wrong with a team being built less Dugtrio weak?
Something else I've noticed is the ridiculous amount of stall breakers used that are Dugtrio weak, why am i not seeing arguments towards using different stall breakers? Currently the most common stall breakers I am seeing are Band/Specs Hoopa, Psyshock Lele, Mega Alakazam, Heatran, Xurkitree, Manaphy, Tapu Fini, and various trick users. The most common are Lele, Hoopa, Xurkitree, Tapu Fini, and Heatran most of which are ridiculously dugtrio weak. Why aren't people using Marowak, Swords Dance Rockium Z Lando, Gengar, Trick Latios, Tapu Bulu, Kartana, Volcarona, Togekiss, and Fightium Z Quiver Pheromosa more? Mostly because the most of the ones I listed struggle to break past certain members, thats where team support comes in.
Another point I feel is not being noticed is that even if Dugtrio trapped and eliminated one of your stall breakers, that does not prevent you from winning. For dugtrio to successfully trap a stall breaker one of a few things must of happened,
A. You killed a wall
B. They switched in and lost dugtrio's sash due to the fact they weren't in a position to afford to sack a mon
C. They double switched
D. They sent him out as a lead as you lead with your stall breaker
E. They came in on a taunt or electric move
Of these A involves removing a wall allowing a team member an easier chance to sweep, B involves breaking dugtrio's sash allowing another mon to worry less about him, C, D, & E involves them predicting you, C can be avoided with Volt switch, U turn, and not acting so obvious, While D involves breaking Dugtrio's sash and you taking a huge unnecessary risk early on.
Aside from removing stall breakers through trapping something worth of question is if its merely trapping itself thats broken is another question, dugtrio's usage on offence and balance doesn't appear to be discussed as much so I believe that dugtrio being unimpressive everywhere outside of trapping is enough to balance arena trap. Though trapping involves limited play one could say so with aggressive play as well.
Oh and why aren't shed shell, agressive hazard usage, volt switch and u turning in wall breakers, and the fact that all stall teams are limited in their choices not being discussed?
 
I have to disagree with, "there is no why out of things like Arena Trap" Because you can get out with U-turn or baton pass. Though if they dont have those things they lose. Then again I dont agree with Arena Trap being allowed, cause its just plain boring to play against. The only reason why Dug is in OU is cause of Arena Trap, if it didnt have it, more than likely no one would use it. So I think Arena Trap should be banned.
Zygarde is only OU because of Thousand Arrows. Tapu Koko is only OU because of Electric Surge. Being able to turn otherwise-mediocre Pokemon into OU threats is not, by itself, grounds for a ban.

Hello, I am rather new to smogon and have been using stall in the mid 1500's on Ou ladder and disagree heavily with dugtrio being broken. Since it seems atm the biggest problem with dugtrio is its usage on stall I will give my argument as such.
From reading comments stating it strains team building too much, I personally think this is a bad argument as you can say so with many mons. Every team has multiple Mega Metagross checks what is wrong with a team being built less Dugtrio weak?
Something else I've noticed is the ridiculous amount of stall breakers used that are Dugtrio weak, why am i not seeing arguments towards using different stall breakers? Currently the most common stall breakers I am seeing are Band/Specs Hoopa, Psyshock Lele, Mega Alakazam, Heatran, Xurkitree, Manaphy, Tapu Fini, and various trick users. The most common are Lele, Hoopa, Xurkitree, Tapu Fini, and Heatran most of which are ridiculously dugtrio weak. Why aren't people using Marowak, Swords Dance Rockium Z Lando, Gengar, Trick Latios, Tapu Bulu, Kartana, Volcarona, Togekiss, and Fightium Z Quiver Pheromosa more? Mostly because the most of the ones I listed struggle to break past certain members, thats where team support comes in.
Another point I feel is not being noticed is that even if Dugtrio trapped and eliminated one of your stall breakers, that does not prevent you from winning. For dugtrio to successfully trap a stall breaker one of a few things must of happened,
A. You killed a wall
B. They switched in and lost dugtrio's sash due to the fact they weren't in a position to afford to sack a mon
C. They double switched
D. They sent him out as a lead as you lead with your stall breaker
E. They came in on a taunt or electric move
Of these A involves removing a wall allowing a team member an easier chance to sweep, B involves breaking dugtrio's sash allowing another mon to worry less about him, C, D, & E involves them predicting you, C can be avoided with Volt switch, U turn, and not acting so obvious, While D involves breaking Dugtrio's sash and you taking a huge unnecessary risk early on.
Aside from removing stall breakers through trapping something worth of question is if its merely trapping itself thats broken is another question, dugtrio's usage on offence and balance doesn't appear to be discussed as much so I believe that dugtrio being unimpressive everywhere outside of trapping is enough to balance arena trap. Though trapping involves limited play one could say so with aggressive play as well.
Oh and why aren't shed shell, agressive hazard usage, volt switch and u turning in wall breakers, and the fact that all stall teams are limited in their choices not being discussed?
The reason is that a lot of the stallbreakers who can also beat Dugtrio are mediocre otherwise. Their usage would make the meta too matchup-based, as you'll steamroll through Duggy teams while losing to everything else. The winner and loser are decided in Team Preview, and that's no fun.

What's most annoying is the speed tier, since it can no longer outspeed Scarf Magnezone, Volcarona, Jirachi, MMeta and has to speedtie with Lele and Kyurem-Black, but nevertheless it still traps and eliminates a lot of common stallbreakers and could potentially become nearly as threatening as Dugtrio. My point is that if something like Diglett can get Arena Trap and almost as much strain on teambuilding as Dugtrio does, then clearly banning Dugtrio isn't the solution, it's banning the ability.
Another (much smaller, admittedly) problem with Diglett is that at least Dugtrio could live a few weak attacks from opposing stall teams. Chansey 2HKOs Diglett with Seismic Toss while Toxapex 1HKOs with Scald (assuming it gets the burn), but not Dugtrio.
 
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As someone who has been using Dugtrio quite regularly on 1500+ ladder the past few weeks I believe that neither he or arena trap are broken. If we look at all the threats in OU, focus sash Dugtrio doesn't beat too many pokemon in a 1v1 situation. Dugtrio doesn't even beat mega Metagross since earthquake isn't a OHKO and Metagross can just follow up with a bullet punch after a meteor mash. Another high profile threat in OU is scarf Lele, who also beats Dugtrio. Dugtrio can't effortlessly trap and kill walls as easily as magnet pull Magnezone either. Pokemon like Ferrothorn and Skarmory are trapped by Magnezone and are OHKOed by HP fire and thunderbolt respectively. If you do take Dugtrio out of OU there are a large number of pokemon that are already really big threats that will become too hard to handle such as specs Lele (or even scarf Lele who doesn't have to deal with losing ~70% of it's health to earthquake), Z-Fire blast Volcarona and the previously mentioned Magnezone. It is for these reasons that I will be voting No Ban if I gain reqs this suspect.
 
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