Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

[Orga777]

My biggest problem with hydriegon is that hoopa-u can perform a very simillar role, being able to get the KO's/2KO's in a easier way(beating fini, chansey and clef too), doesn't have to rely on prediction to much since specs dark pulse hits everything fucking hard and while he lacks a good defensive typing he have a nice sp.def that allows you to switch in things like pex and instant treat the enemy, being a switch to a-marowak is awesome i admit, but that means you have to run roost+LO and then you failed to 2KO pex, and i really hate miss a prediction and throw a draco meteor on a metagross. Taunt is deadly agaist pyukumunku, and this is the reason he is only viable in stall, where his teammates can take care of the taunter, and he only competes with clefable, quagsire and shedinja for a teamslot(maybe mantine?) and i think he is at least on quagsire level of viability.

Well of course Hoopa is better than Hydreigon. That isn't much of a debate. However, Hydreigon is a Ground Immunity, is bulkier, and is a Ghost resist which is sorely lacking on every team. Hoopa is none of those things. Hoopa is usually locked into something as well and easy to revenge kill due to that. It also falls over to Ash Gren while Hydreigon resists both STABs. Thing is that Hydreigon has a good niche while Hoopa is just more easily spamable. Hydreigon may not be as good, but it most certainly is not trash.

As for Pyuk... The problem is that Clef, Quag, and Shedinja are all better. Clef can wish pass and is a Fairy Type. Quag isn't as passive and can get burns and has EQ, and Shed has Wonder Guard. Pyukumuku can only poison things and BP out. It just has less versatility. :(

 

[NewfieDude]

My biggest problem with hydriegon is that hoopa-u can perform a very simillar role, being able to get the KO's/2KO's in a easier way(beating fini, chansey and clef too), doesn't have to rely on prediction to much since specs dark pulse hits everything fucking hard and while he lacks a good defensive typing he have a nice sp.def that allows you to switch in things like pex and instant treat the enemy, being a switch to a-marowak is awesome i admit, but that means you have to run roost+LO and then you failed to 2KO pex, and i really hate miss a prediction and throw a draco meteor on a metagross. Taunt is deadly agaist pyukumunku, and this is the reason he is only viable in stall, where his teammates can take care of the taunter, and he only competes with clefable, quagsire and shedinja for a teamslot(maybe mantine?) and i think he is at least on quagsire level of viability.

That's true, but you do have to remember Hydreigon gets stuff like Flash Cannon for Fairies and other very useful tools like Fire Blast, Iron Tail, Surf, Earth Power, U-Turn, etc. It also has higher speed, which is another problem I have with Hoopa-U is that it's so slow, Hydreigon doesn't hit the 100's but at least it can out run dangerous stuff like Tapu Lele, Hoopa kinda has to run scarf in other to not get revenged killed by basically everything, while Hydreigon can run life orb and not be so punished for it.

Not arguing the Hydra is better, but it does have an edge over Hoopa in some ways

 

[Kutscher]

Well of course Hoopa is better than Hydreigon. That isn't much of a debate. However, Hydreigon is a Ground Immunity, is bulkier, and is a Ghost resist which is sorely lacking on every team. Hoopa is none of those things. Hoopa is usually locked into something as well and easy to revenge kill due to that. It also falls over to Ash Gren while Hydreigon resists both STABs. Thing is that Hydreigon has a good niche while Hoopa is just more easily spamable. Hydreigon may not be as good, but it most certainly is not trash.

As for Pyuk... The problem is that Clef, Quag, and Shedinja are all better. Clef can wish pass and is a Fairy Type. Quag isn't as passive and can get burns and has EQ, and Shed has Wonder Guard. Pyukumuku can only poison things and BP out. It just has less versatility. :(

Well the other 3 mons have weakness to toxic(clefable have heal bell, but being intoxicated is not nice to a Wall) and while they all have advantages over pyukumunku, the guy also have a big advantege, being a counter to Z move lando-t, manaphy, gyarados, salamence, volcarona(badly), and can take a-marowak and CB hoopa way better than his friends, he is not just BP, shedinja needs way more team support(the team is the same, but shedi needs more help to work) literally dying to hazzard/sand/status, and quagsire have to rely on burns to beat a lot of mons he is supposed to beat, of course pyukumunku have flaws, but he is definetly on quagsire level

 

[Orga777]

Well the other 3 mons have weakness to toxic(clefable have heal bell, but being intoxicated is not nice to a Wall) and while they all have advantages over pyukumunku, the guy also have a big advantege, being a counter to Z move lando-t, manaphy, gyarados, salamence, volcarona(badly), and can take a-marowak and CB hoopa way better than his friends, he is not just BP, shedinja needs way more team support(the team is the same, but shedi needs more help to work) literally dying to hazzard/sand/status, and quagsire have to rely on burns to beat a lot of mons he is supposed to beat, of course pyukumunku have flaws, but he is definetly on quagsire level

Pyuk hates Poison more than any of them outside Shed. Lol. And Pyuk can't do much of anything but throw off a Toxic of its own in retaliation. All the rest can do other things. Also if you have Pyuk over Clef on Stall, Sub Coil Toxic Zygarde just 6-0s your whole team.

 

[NewfieDude]

Well the other 3 mons have weakness to toxic(clefable have heal bell, but being intoxicated is not nice to a Wall) and while they all have advantages over pyukumunku, the guy also have a big advantege, being a counter to Z move lando-t, manaphy, gyarados, salamence, volcarona(badly), and can take a-marowak and CB hoopa way better than his friends, he is not just BP, shedinja needs way more team support(the team is the same, but shedi needs more help to work) literally dying to hazzard/sand/status, and quagsire have to rely on burns to beat a lot of mons he is supposed to beat, of course pyukumunku have flaws, but he is definetly on quagsire level

I don't agree with the "Counter to Z move Lando, Manaphy, Gyarados, Salamence, Volcarona" statement because it isn't really a "counter" when there are calcs like these:

252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Supersonic Skystrike (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Pyukumuku: 204-241 (64.9 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Salamence Supersonic Skystrike (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Pyukumuku: 177-208 (56.3 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Gyarados Supersonic Skystrike (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Pyukumuku: 153-181 (48.7 - 57.6%) -- 55.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

This is max HP max defense, and it takes about 70% from lando, who can then proceed to earthquake to kill, Salamence doesn't have the power to do that, but it can chuck it pretty good, gyarados is in the same boat.

Pyukumuku can take Firuim Z Volcaronas pretty well, I will give you that. Same goes for Manaphy, but I don't like the way you use the word "counter"

Counter would suggest that it can switch on any of these mons at anytime can take whatever they throw at it and force it out, taking >50% on even max defense isn't doing that.

Sure, it has the ability to make one of them potentially waste a Z move by not killing Pyukumuku and letting it recover next turn but that isn't really a "counter", it's more of a shaky check.

 

[Leo]

I don't agree with the "Counter to Z move Lando, Manaphy, Gyarados, Salamence, Volcarona" statement because it isn't really a "counter" when there are calcs like these:
252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Supersonic Skystrike (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Pyukumuku: 204-241 (64.9 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Salamence Supersonic Skystrike (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Pyukumuku: 177-208 (56.3 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Gyarados Supersonic Skystrike (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Pyukumuku: 153-181 (48.7 - 57.6%) -- 55.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

This is max HP max defense, and it takes about 70% from lando, who can then proceed to earthquake to kill, Salamence doesn't have the power to do that, but it can chuck it pretty good, gyarados is in the same boat.

Pyukumuku can take Firuim Z Volcaronas pretty well, I will give you that. Same goes for Manaphy, but I don't like the way you use the word "counter"

Counter would suggest that it can switch on any of these mons at anytime can take whatever they throw at it and force it out, taking >50% on even max defense isn't doing that.

Sure, it has the ability to make one of them potentially waste a Z move by not killing Pyukumuku and letting it recover next turn but that isn't really a "counter", it's more of a shaky check.

Flyinium-Z isn't that common cause Rockium is arguably better and it isn't even a threat to Stall. Rockium is the one the Stall player should be worried about since you need to win a bunch of 50-50s with Skarmory to beat Rockium Lando. As your calcs show, Mence and Gyara lack the power to break Pyuku. Yes, as you said they can chunk it p well but then you just click Recover and win your opp wasted his Z-move just to chip you a bit
e: Pyuku is indeed a counter to those bar Flynium Lando aka walled by Skarm

 

[Kutscher]

Pyuk hates Poison more than any of them outside Shed. Lol. And Pyuk can't do much of anything but throw off a Toxic of its own in retaliation. All the rest can do other things. Also if you have Pyuk over Clef on Stall, Sub Coil Toxic Zygarde just 6-0s your whole team.

Pyukumunku can pass some curses to skarmory that can safely phaze him, while quagsire can break subs in 2 turns while die to toxic and shedinja get KO'ed by toxic. Clefable can beat it i admit, but clefable is A-, and im saying to put pyukumunku in C+ alongside quagsire and above weird mons like torkoal and blissey

 

[NewfieDude]

Flyinium-Z isn't that common cause Rockium is arguably better and it isn't even a threat to Stall. Rockium is the one the Stall player should be worried about since you need to win a bunch of 50-50s with Skarmory to beat Rockium Lando. As your calcs show, Mence and Gyara lack the power to break Pyuku. Yes, as you said they can chunk it p well but then you just click Recover and win your opp wasted his Z-move just to chip you a bit
e: Pyuku is indeed a counter to those bar Flynium Lando aka walled by Skarm

And then do what exactly? Purifiy them to death?

If Pyuku makes them waste their Z move then thats all fine and dandy but it does give them the chance to taunt/set a sub up and give them a free dragon dance/swords dance or whatever. And this is assuming the cucumber is already in, what happens if they switch in and can't recover the turn they get Z moved? Lando can finish off with earthquake and mixed mence can fire off a draco.

Now I'm not saying that Puku isn't a good answer to physical Z move's, because that simply isn't true, but it isn't a full on counter, because so many factors have to be in favour of it in order to take the Z move, such as:

Is it healthy enough to live it?

Are there no/few enough hazards on the field so that Puku doesn't get ok'ed?

Does the opponent have something to prevent/punish Puku from recovering such as taunt/sub?

Does the opponent lack switches into Puku so that when it has to switch out it doesn't give them a free turn of set up?

If Puku is a physical Z move counter, then it's a meh one at best.

 

[Kutscher]

And then do what exactly? Purifiy them to death?

If Pyuku makes them waste their Z move then thats all fine and dandy but it does give them the chance to taunt/set a sub up and give them a free dragon dance/swords dance or whatever. And this is assuming the cucumber is already in, what happens if they switch in and can't recover the turn they get Z moved? Lando can finish off with earthquake and mixed mence can fire off a draco.

Now I'm not saying that Puku isn't a good answer to physical Z move's, because that simply isn't true, but it isn't a full on counter, because so many factors have to be in favour of it in order to take the Z move, such as:

Is it healthy enough to live it?

Are there no/few enough hazards on the field so that Puku doesn't get ok'ed?

Does the opponent have something to prevent/punish Puku from recovering such as taunt/sub?

Does the opponent lack switches into Puku so that when it has to switch out it doesn't give them a free turn of set up?

If Puku is a physical Z move counter, then it's a meh one at best.

After recover your full life, you can use toxic and set up curse, never faced a taunt/sub gyara/mence(sub gyara looks viable, but then you pass curse to skarm) neighter draco meteor mence, this cases are extremely specific, and even than pyukumunku can do something against them.(taunt gyara can beat him, but can also beat his competition), also hazzard control is easy in a stall team

 

[NewfieDude]

After recover your full life, you can use toxic and set up curse, never faced a taunt/sub gyara/mence(sub gyara looks viable, but then you pass curse to skarm) neighter draco meteor mence, this cases are extremely specific, and even than pyukumunku can do something against them.(taunt gyara can beat him, but can also beat his competition), also hazzard control is easy in a stall team

I'd love to have a discussion about puku, but I'm not really in the mood to argue about whether scary dragon beats smol cucumber at 9:00 ol'clock at night. I'm dropping my discussion on the subject for now and will return to it at a later date.

 

[Leo]

And then do what exactly? Purifiy them to death?

If Pyuku makes them waste their Z move then thats all fine and dandy but it does give them the chance to taunt/set a sub up and give them a free dragon dance/swords dance or whatever. And this is assuming the cucumber is already in, what happens if they switch in and can't recover the turn they get Z moved? Lando can finish off with earthquake and mixed mence can fire off a draco.

Now I'm not saying that Puku isn't a good answer to physical Z move's, because that simply isn't true, but it isn't a full on counter, because so many factors have to be in favour of it in order to take the Z move, such as:

Is it healthy enough to live it?

Are there no/few enough hazards on the field so that Puku doesn't get ok'ed?

Does the opponent have something to prevent/punish Puku from recovering such as taunt/sub?

Does the opponent lack switches into Puku so that when it has to switch out it doesn't give them a free turn of set up?

If Puku is a physical Z move counter, then it's a meh one at best.

Taunt Dragon Dance? Mixed Draco Flynium Z Salamence? At least try to use coherent sets for your arguments. Pyuku is exclusively used on Stall so yeah hazards shouldn't be on the field. Pyuku also runs Baton Pass so if your opp tries to get momentum off Pyuku you just bp out. There's not much that Stall can't handle after a single "free turn" assuming the mont trying to use Pyuku as set up fodder or substitute fodder isn't walled by it already. Stall also has 6 team members so Pyuku should be healthy enough to take any hit from the mons it's supposed to wall and recover off
e: If you meant Taunt dd m-gyara then you just curse up and it still can't break you

 

[vso]

Nominating Tapu Koko for A+ rank.

Tapu Koko A-->A+

Tapu Koko was always a great momentum gainer with Zap plate, and could potentially clean teams. However, it dropped some time ago due to electric checks running around everywhere. That is, I admit, a massive problem. However, Tapu Koko has gained two main things since then: The creation of its Tapunium and of Mago Berry Natures Madness.

Mago Berry Natures Madness Tapu Koko is a really good set. It massively annoys stall with taunt, natures madness, momentum with U turn, and a mago berry to help it take seismic tosses.It compresses many roles with checking many pokemon like Automize Celesteela, Mega Pinsir, Mega Sharpedo, Mega Gyarados, Regular Gyarados, Manaphy, and even Scarf Keldeo to an Extent. It pretty much never does nothing, whether it is to get free momentum with u turn, taunt away walls, weaken its checks and counters like Ferrothorn, Marowak Alola, Chansey, Excadrill, Mega Venusaur, Landorus-T,(after its set has been revealed) and even slightly weakening Tangrowth and Amoonguss, or to just use its defensive Utility. It also is mildly powerful with thunderbolt.

Tapunium Z Tapu Koko allows Tapu Koko to severely weaken many of its checks and counters. It can weaken Marowak Alola for Pheromosa, Ferrothorn for Mega Metagross, or Ash Greninja, Chansey for any Greninja set, Charziard-Mega-Y, and many other threats, Mega Venusaur for Ash-Greninja or Keldeo etc. It can also generate momentum, and pressure anything that would like to switch into it. It is moderately powerful.

Choice Scarf allows Tapu Koko to massively pressure most offensive builds. It generally does a big number to them. Free momentum with U-Turn is also helpful against fatter builds, and it can revenge kill Gyarados, Keldeo, Greninja-Ash etc. Tapu Koko has tendency in bringing in Pokemon which breakers appreiciate, SD Garchomp appreciates like Excadrill, Marowak Alola, Chansey, and Mega Venusaur, and Ferrothorn being brought in.

Expert Belt Brave Bird allows Tapu Koko to lure in and weaken grasses which freely switch into it like Tangrowth, Amoongus, and Mega Venusaur for something like a Greninja-Ash. It maintains momentum and is fairly fast and strong like any other Koko set. If teams rely on using Tangrowth, Mega Venusaur, or Amoongus as their primary electric check, (Hint: Many teams do) Tapu Koko will be able to deal massive damage.

Last, but not least, comes the Zap Plate set. Zap Plate is still probably Tapu Koko's best set for quite a bit of power with Zap Plate Thunderbolt or Volt Switch in Electric Terrain, while not taking any recoil damage when pivotting, Its decent speed tier allows it to outspeed threats like Protean Greninja.

Comparing it to other A+ ranked Pokemon, Tapu Koko is certainly as good as Zygarde and Tapu Lele.

 

[Nuked]

I feel like Alolan Muk should rise to B-. It fits a lot more with the B- mons because it actually gets used and is relevant unlike most of the C+ tier. The AV set can generally check most fairies / grass types and imo one of the best things about Muk is that it switches right into Gengar and eliminates it, which is so good because of the lack of Ghost resists right now. Its physical bulk is not very good but it can take hits from Pokemon such as Mega Metagross and Tapu Bulu and heavily damage them. Since when was the last time Starmie was ever actually used? Volcanion? Quagsire? Alolan Ninetails? Most of C+ only fits on one playstyle, but Muk can generally fill roles as a glue on offensive and balanced teams that are weak to Lele or Greninja or Gengar, which a lot of teams are. It's basically never really deadweight because there will generally be at least one Pokemon it checks on any team given the current state of the metagame (for example, Tapu Lele, Gengar, Tangrowth, Clefable, most Fairy types, most Psychic types, etc) and for this reason it belongs a lot more in B- alongside other mons like Mega Aero or Slowbro. Muk obviously has problems which prevents it from being prevalent but I really did not think it belongs in C+, again I'm not nominating it for A+ but it is just better than the C+ mons and as such the viability rankings should reflect this.

 

[volx757]

I don't know if this is a formal nom, but regular gyara seems to me better than a lot of B+, and even some of A-. It's moxie flyinium-z set hasn't gotten any less deadly as the gen grows. Against many, many teams, gyara just needs to grab 1 dance while keeping itself relatively healthy (so that it can eat water shurikens and bps, not that hard) to steamroll thru the opposing team. It's typing is fantastic both offensively and defensively. Stealth rock hurts so if rocks are up you may only get 1 chance to setup with it, but that's not unique to gyara. Bug, fighting, water and ground are very common attacking types and gyara finds opportunities to set up on a lot of mons.
A +1 SSSS blows back all of it's checks, bar skarmory and celesteela, but no one besides CharX should be going for a physical sweep with either of those alive and healthy.

Speaking of CharX, it sits in A-, and to me gyara feels like an easier to setup and more consistent sweeper, and should at least be on the same rank as char. Meanwhile Gyara's own B+ rank houses mons like terrakion, hoopa and bisharp, all of which gyarados is objectively better than right now (it's hard to find direct comparisons cause scolipede is the only other physical setup sweeper in the sub-rank).

Anyone else have thoughts on Gyarados B+ -> A-

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

I feel like Mega-Steelix might have one usage in OU that only really Ferrothorn has as well. It counters Kyurem-Black if it is the Choice Band set which is a big deal as other than Ferrothorn and Mega-Steelix Kyurem-B's Choice Banded set 2HKO's the entire metagame and Mega Steelix can 2HKO it back after Rocks with Heavy Slam. That is a pretty good niche.

EDIT: Forgot to mention it also counters Mega-Mawile and Tapu Koko and those two especially are important.

 

[Toshiro46]

I don't know if this is a formal nom, but regular gyara seems to me better than a lot of B+, and even some of A-. It's moxie flyinium-z set hasn't gotten any less deadly as the gen grows. Against many, many teams, gyara just needs to grab 1 dance while keeping itself relatively healthy (so that it can eat water shurikens and bps, not that hard) to steamroll thru the opposing team. It's typing is fantastic both offensively and defensively. Stealth rock hurts so if rocks are up you may only get 1 chance to setup with it, but that's not unique to gyara. Bug, fighting, water and ground are very common attacking types and gyara finds opportunities to set up on a lot of mons.
A +1 SSSS blows back all of it's checks, bar skarmory and celesteela, but no one besides CharX should be going for a physical sweep with either of those alive and healthy.

Speaking of CharX, it sits in A-, and to me gyara feels like an easier to setup and more consistent sweeper, and should at least be on the same rank as char. Meanwhile Gyara's own B+ rank houses mons like terrakion, hoopa and bisharp, all of which gyarados is objectively better than right now (it's hard to find direct comparisons cause scolipede is the only other physical setup sweeper in the sub-rank).

Anyone else have thoughts on Gyarados B+ -> A-

I second this nom/make a formal nomination.

Water/Flying STAB is actually really fucking good. There's only 7 mons in the game that resist it - 1 isn't fully evolved, 2 are ubers. That leaves mega ampharos (unreleased and trash besides), lanturn (trash), Empoleon (niche trash), and Rotom-W. Rotom-W is super rare this gen, and even when it is on a team it's easy to wear down. Basically, Gyarados can hit the entire tier bar Wash neutrally with its STABs, a feat that few other pokes can claim.

Unless you have a really quick electric type (read: Koko) on your team, Gyara is really hard to bring down before it gets 1 or (God forbid) 2 DDs off, and then it's off to the races with it. If Koko is an issue, you can just run jolly and outspeed and KO it after one boost. Otherwise, run adamant and break through everything.

Nevermind that its snowballing increases with every kill it gets or that it has a one time nuke to break through its counters and/or get that boost quicker.

Its only real checks are physically bulky mons who resist flynium, and that's only if they come in before it gets to +3/4.

Right now I'd argue it's the best DD sweeper in the meta.

 

[NewfieDude]

I second this nom/make a formal nomination.

Water/Flying STAB is actually really fucking good. There's only 7 mons in the game that resist it - 1 isn't fully evolved, 2 are ubers. That leaves mega ampharos (unreleased and trash besides), lanturn (trash), Empoleon (niche trash), and Rotom-W. Rotom-W is super rare this gen, and even when it is on a team it's easy to wear down. Basically, Gyarados can hit the entire tier bar Wash neutrally with its STABs, a feat that few other pokes can claim.

Unless you have a really quick electric type (read: Koko) on your team, Gyara is really hard to bring down before it gets 1 or (God forbid) 2 DDs off, and then it's off to the races with it. If Koko is an issue, you can just run jolly and outspeed and KO it after one boost. Otherwise, run adamant and break through everything.

Nevermind that its snowballing increases with every kill it gets or that it has a one time nuke to break through its counters and/or get that boost quicker.

Its only real checks are physically bulky mons who resist flynium, and that's only if they come in before it gets to +3/4.

Right now I'd argue it's the best DD sweeper in the meta.

Really? Only 7? That's actually pretty good, I guess that means it's free to run stuff like sub or earthquake, I just wonder which is more viable, earthquake or sub, with sub you can set up on a switch but with eq you ko stuff like Koko,Toxa,M-gross. So I'm assuming earthquake is better?

 

[mushamu]

Following the new announcment, I nominate Blaze Blaziken for S+ tier.

Why would blaziken be S+ tier? It's really outclassed with 80 speed and no speed boost to back it up. Without speed boost, this thing is basically an inferior infernape.

 

[mushamu]

I second this nom/make a formal nomination.

Water/Flying STAB is actually really fucking good. There's only 7 mons in the game that resist it - 1 isn't fully evolved, 2 are ubers. That leaves mega ampharos (unreleased and trash besides), lanturn (trash), Empoleon (niche trash), and Rotom-W. Rotom-W is super rare this gen, and even when it is on a team it's easy to wear down. Basically, Gyarados can hit the entire tier bar Wash neutrally with its STABs, a feat that few other pokes can claim.


Unless you have a really quick electric type (read: Koko) on your team, Gyara is really hard to bring down before it gets 1 or (God forbid) 2 DDs off, and then it's off to the races with it. If Koko is an issue, you can just run jolly and outspeed and KO it after one boost. Otherwise, run adamant and break through everything.

Nevermind that its snowballing increases with every kill it gets or that it has a one time nuke to break through its counters and/or get that boost quicker.

Its only real checks are physically bulky mons who resist flynium, and that's only if they come in before it gets to +3/4.

Right now I'd argue it's the best DD sweeper in the meta.

Don't Most scarfed mons kill it even with a boost? Scarf gengar is used quite often this gen so that may bring gyarados viability down.

 

[GH[O]ST]

I don't know if this is a formal nom, but regular gyara seems to me better than a lot of B+, and even some of A-. It's moxie flyinium-z set hasn't gotten any less deadly as the gen grows. Against many, many teams, gyara just needs to grab 1 dance while keeping itself relatively healthy (so that it can eat water shurikens and bps, not that hard) to steamroll thru the opposing team. It's typing is fantastic both offensively and defensively. Stealth rock hurts so if rocks are up you may only get 1 chance to setup with it, but that's not unique to gyara. Bug, fighting, water and ground are very common attacking types and gyara finds opportunities to set up on a lot of mons.
A +1 SSSS blows back all of it's checks, bar skarmory and celesteela, but no one besides CharX should be going for a physical sweep with either of those alive and healthy.

Speaking of CharX, it sits in A-, and to me gyara feels like an easier to setup and more consistent sweeper, and should at least be on the same rank as char. Meanwhile Gyara's own B+ rank houses mons like terrakion, hoopa and bisharp, all of which gyarados is objectively better than right now (it's hard to find direct comparisons cause scolipede is the only other physical setup sweeper in the sub-rank).

Anyone else have thoughts on Gyarados B+ -> A-

I disagree with promoting Gyarados from B+ to A-.

With the decline of the generic blanket checking Lando-T-Tapu Fini core, which z-bounce gyara was very good at breaking, Gyarados finds itself facing a lot more full blown balance cores that include Lando, Zapdos, Toxapex, ferrothorn, rotom, and Tangrowth (in addition to skarmory and celesteela). Once the Z-bounce is baited it's very difficult for gyarados' sweep.

I dont think Gyarados is up to par with the current A- mons. The only thing really keeping Charizard X at bay is Lando T and the ability to check it with like 3 good scarfers. Otherwise nothing in A through S can really face Zard X with impunity. Zard X is a faster,stronger, and just overall bigger threat. even conventional answers like lando t and fini have to face the rare but viable will o wisp and thunder punch.

252 Atk Gyarados Supersonic Skystrike (160 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 337-397 (52.4 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Tough Claws Charizard-Mega-X Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 339-399 (52.8 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

These calcs should put things in perspective. Zard X's flare blitz hits as hard as gyarados' z move

Gyarados just struggles now. It's biggest roadblocks are things that are incredibly hard to wear down unlike the generic fini-lando cores of prior.

I actually think terrakion, hoopa, and bisharp are all better than gyarados. Terrakion can wall break and set up rocks. It's also a potent scarfer capable of handling dangerous threats like zards and volcarona. Hoopa is a good breaker. Bisharp is becoming better as spike stacking teams are becoming more popular, pheromosa is gone, metagross is as good as ever, it's a rare ghost resist, and the metagame is becoming a bit slower and bulkier for bisharp to feast on easier.

 

[volx757]

I disagree with promoting Gyarados from B+ to A-.

With the decline of the generic blanket checking Lando-T-Tapu Fini core, which z-bounce gyara was very good at breaking, Gyarados finds itself facing a lot more full blown balance cores that include Lando, Zapdos, Toxapex, ferrothorn, rotom, and Tangrowth (in addition to skarmory and celesteela). Once the Z-bounce is baited it's very difficult for gyarados' sweep.

I dont think Gyarados is up to par with the current A- mons. The only thing really keeping Charizard X at bay is Lando T and the ability to check it with like 3 good scarfers. Otherwise nothing in A through S can really face Zard X with impunity. Zard X is a faster,stronger, and just overall bigger threat. even conventional answers like lando t and fini have to face the rare but viable will o wisp and thunder punch.

252 Atk Gyarados Supersonic Skystrike (160 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 337-397 (52.4 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Tough Claws Charizard-Mega-X Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 339-399 (52.8 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

These calcs should put things in perspective. Zard X's flare blitz hits as hard as gyarados' z move

Gyarados just struggles now. It's biggest roadblocks are things that are incredibly hard to wear down unlike the generic fini-lando cores of prior.

I actually think terrakion, hoopa, and bisharp are all better than gyarados. Terrakion can wall break and set up rocks. It's also a potent scarfer capable of handling dangerous threats like zards and volcarona. Hoopa is a good breaker. Bisharp is becoming better as spike stacking teams are becoming more popular, pheromosa is gone, metagross is as good as ever, it's a rare ghost resist, and the metagame is becoming a bit slower and bulkier for bisharp to feast on easier.

While I don't think your comparison between zardx and gyara is accurate, I can see rotom finally showing its face in the meta, as well as more zapdos around as being reasons to keep it where it is. Lando isn't really a check, pex falls to EQ, and ferro and tang are things that SSSS is meant for.

Gyara's z-move is 160 BP, blitz is 120 BP boosted by tough claws. Yeah, on turn one zardx has more power. But the whole point of moxiedos is that it snowballs like crazy, has better stab, and it sets up on lots of shit. Someone else mentioned scarfers, but another perk of gyara is that it's naturally bulky, and scarfers like keldeo and gengar can't come close to an OHKO without electric coverage, ultimately becoming another boost for gyara's moxie. The point you made about the meta becoming slower and bulkier works in gyara's favor, as well, since it can start putting in work at +1 against a slow meta.

Maybe the z-move is super prepared for and not that potent, tbh I haven't pushed up the ladder since sumo started so I'm not up in the 1800s or anything, but where I sit, z-move gyara is frequently just one good play away from a clean sweep.

 

[Failures]

I think making Volcarona A+ would be fair for many reasons. One is that Volcarona can easily sweep teams using its Inferno Overdrive and Shattered Psyche sets. Its able to set up on almost every steel type in the meta and to name a few of those steels would be ferrothorn, skarmory if its not whirlwind, and AV magearna. The rise in Shattered Psyche sets is able to destroy one of its most popular answers, toxapex. It can kill it before it can get off a haze if volcarona is at +1. Also its bulky set has much versatility mainly in being able to decently check one of the top tier threats in the OU tier, mega metagross. IT can check it because meteor mash does 0 and zen isnt really that common. It is also able to roost stall it out of eqs. and it can also switch in on some physical moves since it has the ability flame body, which has a chance to burn. It even has fiery dance to raise its Special Attack making it even stronger and other decent coverage moves like giga drain to hit bulky waters like fini and the rare Quagsire. Volcarona is definitely a top tier threat because of its QD sets and is also one of the best Z-move abusers in the meta right now which is why it deserves A+

EDIT: how tf do you change your profile pic on this site..

 

[UltraBallz]

I think making Volcarona A+ would be fair for many reasons. One is that Volcarona can easily sweep teams using its Inferno Overdrive and Shattered Psyche sets. Its able to set up on almost every steel type in the meta and to name a few of those steels would be ferrothorn, skarmory if its not whirlwind, and AV magearna. The rise in Shattered Psyche sets is able to destroy one of its most popular answers, toxapex. It can kill it before it can get off a haze if volcarona is at +1. Also its bulky set has much versatility mainly in being able to decently check one of the top tier threats in the OU tier, mega metagross. IT can check it because meteor mash does 0 and zen isnt really that common. It is also able to roost stall it out of eqs. and it can also switch in on some physical moves since it has the ability flame body, which has a chance to burn. It even has fiery dance to raise its Special Attack making it even stronger and other decent coverage moves like giga drain to hit bulky waters like fini and the rare Quagsire. Volcarona is definitely a top tier threat because of its QD sets and is also one of the best Z-move abusers in the meta right now which is why it deserves A+

EDIT: how tf do you change your profile pic on this site..

I agree with all your reasons as to why Volcarona is good but I have to disagree in it moving to A+. The reason is Volcarona, while probably the scariest sweeper in the meta, will always have the 4x rocks weakness working against it. This means you have to build around Volcarona and you can't just spam it on teams. The pokemon in S and A+ rank are there because they are stand alone mons that you can use on just about any playstyle (minus stall) with no drawback. I can throw a Zygarde on any team I build with little to no downside, it requires no support from the other team members to be able to do its job. This is why it is more viable in the current meta. Volcarona is an awesome mon but the support it needs from the rest of its team, to me, means it is more at home in the A rank.

And also for profile pics just go to your account prfile and you should be able to upload any photo you want :)

 

[Toshiro46]

I think making Volcarona A+ would be fair for many reasons. One is that Volcarona can easily sweep teams using its Inferno Overdrive and Shattered Psyche sets. Its able to set up on almost every steel type in the meta and to name a few of those steels would be ferrothorn, skarmory if its not whirlwind, and AV magearna. The rise in Shattered Psyche sets is able to destroy one of its most popular answers, toxapex. It can kill it before it can get off a haze if volcarona is at +1. Also its bulky set has much versatility mainly in being able to decently check one of the top tier threats in the OU tier, mega metagross. IT can check it because meteor mash does 0 and zen isnt really that common. It is also able to roost stall it out of eqs. and it can also switch in on some physical moves since it has the ability flame body, which has a chance to burn. It even has fiery dance to raise its Special Attack making it even stronger and other decent coverage moves like giga drain to hit bulky waters like fini and the rare Quagsire. Volcarona is definitely a top tier threat because of its QD sets and is also one of the best Z-move abusers in the meta right now which is why it deserves A+

I disagree for a couple reasons.

1. 4x rocks weakness. This cannot be stressed enough. You need reliable hazard control, which is pretty difficult in this meta since you essentially only have 4 options (M Scizor, Zapdos, Fini, Excadrill) and none are super ideal.

2. Coverage. Volcarona obviously has to run a fire type move and has to run QD, which means it only has two slots for coverage. It can run STAB Bug Buzz, or Giga Drain, or psychic, or HP Ground, but only two when it'd like all of them. Running the Shattered psyche means you're guaranteed psychic, which will probably be useless after you use the z (more than one poison type on a team is uncommon).

3. Its bulky set can't check Megagross. Its defense is ass, and even with 252 HP/252 Def it gets 2HKOed by Megagross's Zen Headbutt - which almost all of them run, despite what you said. It's pretty underwhelming in general, because 85/65/105 defenses aren't that great by any means.

4. Rise of 100+ scarfers. Nihilego, Terrakion, even stone edge Keldeo are all popular choices nowadays and are all tailor made to counter Volcarona. With them running around, Volcarona finds it much more difficult to sweep.

It's still the most devastating special set up sweeper in the tier (bar QD Phero but rip), but 4x rocks, Scarfers, and its lack of diversity hold it back from A+.

It also feels wrong for it to be two subranks above CharY when it's essentially the sweeper to Char's wallbreaker. One rank makes sense because Char takes the mega slot, but two is a bit much.

Speaking of special sweepers;

What do people think of Z Hypnosis Xurkitree? Even at +1, base 83 speed isn't the best, but having a 100% accurate sleep move (with only dark types immune to it) that grants +1 speed is pretty devastating. It basically means you have a free turn of set up, which means tail glow, and then it's off to the races. If you don't have an answer to it (like scarf terrakion), then you could be 6-0ed right then and there.

 

[Leo]

I disagree for a couple reasons.

Speaking of special sweepers;

What do people think of Z Hypnosis Xurkitree? Even at +1, base 83 speed isn't the best, but having a 100% accurate sleep move (with only dark types immune to it) that grants +1 speed is pretty devastating. It basically means you have a free turn of set up, which means tail glow, and then it's off to the races. If you don't have an answer to it (like scarf terrakion), then you could be 6-0ed right then and there.

Hypnosis isn't 100% accurate, it's 60% so 40% of the time you won't hit and will probably die or not get any room for setting up Tail Glow. It lacks the coverage and slots to break past common electric checks every team should have and is too slow to outpace any Scarfer even bad Scarfers like Scarf Lando lr Scarf Lele revenge kill it with ease

edit@below: No, it's 60%