Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

[Kyuzeth]

I agree as well with a Koko rise, but the topic is mainly Medi imo. While I am on the fence for Medi for S, Medicham has the ability to put an unbelievable amount of pressure on the opponents team, especially paired with VoltTurn, Medi can come in on slower threats and pretty much ensure a kill. While Medi does have a tough time competing with the likes of Megagross, Medi has that raw power that can fuck teams without MSab or Mew. Also, Medicham runs Adamant for the most damage possible. Adamant allows Fake to deal a lot of damage to faster threats and common leads such as Koko and Gren. I agree on the fact Medi isn't S material YET but it's definitely not A or A- worthy, it's way too damn pressuring and strong for A and A-. My take on this tho is wait for potential Megagross ban and see how Medi does.

I think it's best not to talk about bans when they're not even on the slate yet. Right now, Mega Metagross is in the metagame, and is a dominating force at that; this is the current metagame, not a hypothetical future one. Suspects should only be brought up if they have been confirmed, and even then, suspect threads exist on the forums.

(If this an unnecessary one-liner, then feel free to delete this comment.)

 

[Tentacruelladeville]

How come regular Scizor isn't ranked?

I've been playing around with a swords dance-fightium z Scizor and it's been pretty decent, not unstoppable but fun to use, and I've also used defensive and life orb versions.

In general Mega Scizor is a great pokemon but all it has over non-mega is better bulk, otherwise it takes up a mega slot and can't hold an item so it's a lot less versatile. The fact that you can have regular Scizor on the same team as megacham or megagross etc is a big advantage. Even without Mega Scizor's bulk it's still a decent counter to opposing Megagross and other threats, can defog better than most ranked defoggers, and it's still very powerful (life orb scizor hits harder than mega scizor). So I don't think Scizor is really outclassed by its mega evolution?

I'm a crap player, I rarely get above 1400 on the ladder, so I just thought I should ask if there was a reason it wasn't ranked before I posted a crap replay

 

[StraightEdgeNexus]

How come regular Scizor isn't ranked?

I've been playing around with a swords dance-fightium z Scizor and it's been pretty decent, not unstoppable but fun to use, and I've also used defensive and life orb versions.

In general Mega Scizor is a great pokemon but all it has over non-mega is better bulk, otherwise it takes up a mega slot and can't hold an item so it's a lot less versatile. The fact that you can have regular Scizor on the same team as megacham or megagross etc is a big advantage. Even without Mega Scizor's bulk it's still a decent counter to opposing Megagross and other threats, can defog better than most ranked defoggers, and it's still very powerful (life orb scizor hits harder than mega scizor). So I don't think Scizor is really outclassed by its mega evolution?

I'm a crap player, I rarely get above 1400 on the ladder, so I just thought I should ask if there was a reason it wasn't ranked before I posted a crap replay

+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Hammer Arm vs. 248 HP / 124+ Def Scizor: 186-219 (54.2 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Mega bulk matters. Besides the only regular Scizor set you should use in OU is the choice band set, which was diminishing during ORAS too. Besides MScizor is almost only used for countering metagross anyway

 

[Rakan]

+1 252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Hammer Arm vs. 248 HP / 124+ Def Scizor: 186-219 (54.2 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Mega bulk matters. Besides the only regular Scizor set you should use in OU is the choice band set, which was diminishing during ORAS too. Besides MScizor is almost only used for countering metagross anyway

Mega Scizor has a whole lot of utility other than "countering Mega Metagross only". It's probably one of the better Defoggers in the tier since it has access to reliable recovery and preserves momentum with U-turn. Magnezone can't even OHKO with HP Fire unless it is Choice Specs, and most aren't running Specs in favor of Assault Vest these days. It also serves as a blanket check to a lot of physical attackers because its bulk is pretty damn good. So yes, while it is a great Mega Metagross counter, per say, it also has many more uses than just that. Sadly with Mega Mawile and Mega Medicham running amok nowadays it's less effective than it was previously, but it's still a decent pick for most bulky offense or balance teams.

 

[volx757]

I agree with u. Megacham can even be OHKOed by a meteor mash from Mega Metagross.
252+ Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Medicham-Mega: 259-306 (99.2 - 117.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO.


I think that shuckle is good, until you destroy it's sash. Super-Effective hits will only let Shuckle set web, but before it gets low on health, shuckle can hit hard. I nominate Shuckle for B-, because of the ability to set webs and rocks, infest and with not that many rapid spinners other than Excadrill (Which is taken out by the sheer amount of Landorus-Ts), the hazards will stay for the entire battle, most likely. So shuckle is ok as a mon, before it gets low on health with its lack of active (and passive) recovery if not equipped with leftovers. and that's why I nomm it for B-. (I am not the most experienced, but from fighting battles in not only OU but in Ubers where shuckle and smeragle are the bane of the tier, shuckle is just ok. and deserves a boot to B- with its doggy cousin, smeargle.)
Edit: Shuckle doesn't need a sash, sorry.

Shuckle typically doesn't 'hit' at all (unless it's power trick meme set), let alone hard.

Looking at smeargle and shuckle as a part of the archetype of Webs teams, smeargle performs it's roll better. They share goals: set webs, set rocks, grab momentum.
Smeargle does this fairly reliably by getting off a sash'd spore or just going for webs right off the bat. Shuckle does this by surviving most any hit with ease. Once they've gotten their hazards up, tho, smeargle can die and let someone else come in for 'free,' or maybe drop a spore if it didn't in the first place. Shuckle, on the hand, is likely still just sitting there with a chunk of health left. It can try to infestation-meme for some extra damage on something, but in general offensive teams prefer to get their breaker/sweeper of choice in and start doing real work, rather than allowing the opponent free switches and/or setup/hazards on shuckle as it does p much nothing. Encores your spikes I guess? lol

I would definitely not put shuckle in B-, although it should be ranked somewhere in C/C- as one of a very limited number of options for this niche. It's probably better than Galvantula in this meta anyway.

 

[Asspull]

Nom for ZyDog to move to C+
I almost have never seen this thing used at all over its 50% and its position still in B- is still kinda weird for me. It's only niche as a fast band mon is still pretty weak due to its only moves being STAB and espeed, while toxic locking itself can just lead to bait for so many more dangerous mons(mawile mmeta sciz). Everyteam prepared for zygarde 50 is usually prepared for zydog 10(any ice type with priority,tang with hp ice any bulky waters) and takes so many risks to attempt to do damage and its garbage defenses leave it destroyed by any mon that can take a hit(or leaves it killed by priority). Compared to other B-'s like alo's wish passes and nido as a wallbreaker, doesn't fit as a mon that can actually do anything for the team without huge support of weakening grasses and volt turn support.

 

[Night Train Lane]

I disagree with a Zygarde 10% drop. While it is definitely outclassed by Zygarde 50% as a set up mon (DD/Coil) it's not completely outclassed as a band user. Being at a higher speed tier that lets it revenge kill Metagross, timid Lele, Medicham, and other Zygarde frees up roles for the team without having to make dynamic changes to how it functions. The bulk that Zygarde 50% is of course much better the long run, being a direct switch in to so much. While 10% takes advantage by being a much better revenge killer. 50% is way better, way way better, but C+ is too low and it's not as good, but better, than things like Beedrill, Buzzwole, Primarina, Hippo, and Breloom.

 

[Nuked]

Gonna make a nomination

Thundurus-I -> B+

I will definitely say that I have caught myself looking really weak to this mon. What separates Thundurus from Koko is the fact that it has coverage moves to take on things that resist Electric, contrary to Koko, which can only use the weak as shit HP Ice (does no damage to Tangrowth, doesn't OHKO Landorus, etc) but Thundurus actually has super good coverage moves to hit everything pretty hard (Sludge Wave for Tangrowth, Focus / Superpower for Ferrothorn, HP Ice OHKOes Landorus-T, etc) and this is really the main reason I think it should be in B+, the fact that it hits significantly harder than Koko in everything except for its electric moves, which really matters when you're facing a Zygarde or a Landorus that you really need to OHKO. Yeah the speed tier isn't as good but that's why I'm nominating it for B+ and not A. Its viability is not represented correctly in the VR, it fits in a lot more with all of the B+ mons when we're talking about how viable it is.

 

[Asspull]

Even though yes zydog 10% makes a decent revenge killer, it still has to compete with the numerous amount of revenge killers, nihil, chomp, duggy, gren etc. And even if his 115 is good, its still out sped by most scarfers, duggy itself, and still doesn't change its vulnerability to priority. Also

frees up roles for the team without having to make dynamic changes to how it functions.

I don't quite understand what this means. Considering that zydog's only role is frail revenge killer, that would just mean zydog is very limited in what it can do and has no versatility at all. in fact almost all revenge killers has the possibility to be versatile in their sets, or at least have a ok move set (sciz chomp koko) but zygarde 10% is stuck with arrows, outrage espeed and tox
making it have to take risks on what it chooses except arrows where someone can go into their fini/ferro/sciz etc and just proceed to set up/chip out/set up hazards. And the prevalence of spikes means that zydog can only switch in so many times before it can go into priority range. Zydog just feels like a 1 dimensional revenge killer that is constantly competing with other revenge killers to do the same roles of killing mmeta m-cham etc.(can't even outspeed most +1 boosted threats either) Still want that move to C+

 

[Subject 18]

I think the biggest issue with Thundurus I at the moment is that it does not do that well against the current meta. While it does look great on paper, each set has a number of issues that prevent it from excelling the level you'd expect it to. For example, Nasty Plot sets do well vs balance/stall, but against offense matchups while you hit decently hard you don't ever sweep with Nasty Plot. Against offense, you're rarely given any room to setup or even come in and do anything of impact. The Mixed sets don't seem to do that well vs stall nor offense in my experience. AoA is good vs offense but poor vs Stall because it's too weak without any boosts. I've never seen Physical sets, but it doesn't really sound too good to me, but convince me with good replays.

A lot of things play against it's viability like frailty, hazards control being mediocre, faster pokemon, etc. I like it and all I've used it a good amount, but it's not something I would consider really highly at the moment. However, when some certain pokemon get banned (greninja), I think it'll probably be better and will rise. But for now, it's fine in B.

Edit: Why is Electivire even being mentioned...

 

[Toshiro46]

I agree with u. Megacham can even be OHKOed by a meteor mash from Mega Metagross.
252+ Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Medicham-Mega: 259-306 (99.2 - 117.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO.


I think that shuckle is good, until you destroy it's sash. Super-Effective hits will only let Shuckle set web, but before it gets low on health, shuckle can hit hard. I nominate Shuckle for B-, because of the ability to set webs and rocks, infest and with not that many rapid spinners other than Excadrill (Which is taken out by the sheer amount of Landorus-Ts), the hazards will stay for the entire battle, most likely. So shuckle is ok as a mon, before it gets low on health with its lack of active (and passive) recovery if not equipped with leftovers. and that's why I nomm it for B-. (I am not the most experienced, but from fighting battles in not only OU but in Ubers where shuckle and smeragle are the bane of the tier, shuckle is just ok. and deserves a boot to B- with its doggy cousin, smeargle.)
Edit: Shuckle doesn't need a sash, sorry.

In what world does base 10 attack and SpA hit hard? Why does a suicide webs setter need lefties? And why do you think that it's somehow above B- right now? It's not even ranked.

Also, as far as your previous comment goes, arguing that Medicham's lack of bulk prevents it from S when Greninja exists or that 100 base attack doesn't hit hard when Pure Power exists is just dumb.

Anyway. Since Starmie didn't end up with a raise in the recent update, I'd like to echo the nomination for it.

Most everything that could be said has already been said, so I'll just reiterate some points in its favor -

1. Decent hazard control in a meta with mostly shitty options. E: This is the primary reading for it to rise. Many other points are just enumerating on why it's decent.

2. Reliable recovery so it can spin throughout the match.

3. A great speed allowing it to outspeed the crowded 100-110 tier, which means it's more likely to get rapid spin off.

4. A great ability in Analytic, which, when combined with excellent coverage options such as Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, and HP Fire (as well as more niche options like dazzling gleam, power gem, grass knot, and flash cannon), means that it can severely punish switch ins (looking at you, Ash-Greninja).

5. Besides Rapid Spin, an expansive support/utility movepool, including T-Wave, Confuse Ray, Trick, Reflect Type, Icy Wind, Scald, Skill Swap, Trick, and Trick Room.

6. Passable 60/85/85 bulk.

Edit:

7. Outspeeds and KOs the most viable (according to these rankings) ghost-type (spin blocker) in Gengar.

8. Beats most common SR setter, Landorus-T, and beats the most common spike setter, Ferrothorn, on the switch with Analytic HP Fire.

9. Has an otherwise generally favorable match up against most other hazard setters - can carry thunderbolt for Greninja/Skarm, ice beam for Lando/Chomp/Ground-type Gren, hydro pump for heatran, psychic for toxapex. It outspeeds (excepting Spikes Gren who rarely carries dark pulse anyway) and KOs (2HKOs in the case of SpD Skarm and Toxapex) all of them.

10. Phero is gone, and with it Starmie's main spin competitor and main threat of Bug STAB. Dark STAB is rare right now, with only one A/S Ranked mon carrying it. Ghost is slightly less so but still rather rare, and as pointed out before it outspeeds/KOs the most relevant Ghost-type.

Basically, it actually matches up against most of the relevant mons that it wants to beat to do its job, and being the only spinner and one of the few hazard removers in general with recovery is a boon in a meta where you often take 30%+ just from switching, due to hazards. Add to that Phero's ban, and you have a mon with a sizable niche worthy of B-.

 

[Colonel M]

As for the nomination, I have to disagree for Thundurus to rise to B+. As Subject 18 sort of mentioned Thundurus-I feels very sink-or-swim and needs some tools (Defog) to be effective. It's still good in that it trolls in a Speed tier and can offensively tear through stall after a Nasty Plot, but there are some matches where it didn't always contribute a lot of positives. Usually I would nail some Ground-type switches with Hidden Power Ice and hope that Tangrowth is about 50% health when using Nasty Plot. I think Thundurus does perform well against some matchups like stall and some balance cores, but it still has some glaring flaws with its mediocre durability, weakness to Stealth Rock, and needing more support than some Pokemon to function. It's good and I would love to propel it to B+, but I feel Thundurus-I's flaws are too questionable to rise at this time.

 

[robopoke]

I think the biggest issue with Thundurus I at the moment is that it does not do that well against the current meta. While it does look great on paper, each set has a number of issues that prevent it from excelling the level you'd expect it to. For example, Nasty Plot sets do well vs balance/stall, but against offense matchups while you hit decently hard you don't ever sweep with Nasty Plot. Against offense, you're rarely given any room to setup or even come in and do anything of impact. The Mixed sets don't seem to do that well vs stall nor offense in my experience. AoA is good vs offense but poor vs Stall because it's too weak without any boosts. I've never seen Physical sets, but it doesn't really sound too good to me, but convince me with good replays.

A lot of things play against it's viability like frailty, hazards control being mediocre, faster pokemon, etc. I like it and all I've used it a good amount, but it's not something I would consider really highly at the moment. However, when some certain pokemon get banned (greninja), I think it'll probably be better and will rise. But for now, it's fine in B.

Edit: Why is Electivire even being mentioned...

Actually, AoA Thundurus does well against Stall and Offense. Knock Off, Superpower, Tbolt, HP Ice/Sludge Save means you do not have to waste time setting up and with Knock Off+Superpower you kill 248/252+ Chansey with 75% Chance with just 68 ATK evs and Life Orb.

Sludge Wave is very good rn to oneshot Kokos who think can switch in safely and take any 1 hit. Also 2hkos AV Tang after Rocks and Spdef Clefable found on Stall.

Against offense: Find me a good mon commonly found on offense that can safely switch into Thundurus. With the correct prediction you will get a kill very easily.

Koko just finds himself Uturning out early game to scout for the switchins because misspredicting is a huge turn off for it since its coverage options are superweak.
1) You either Uturn out to be safe against switchins
2) You click the correct move and get rewarded
3) You atk but clicked Tbolt against ex. Garchomp. Now you have to Uturn out or hard switch

Thundurus in comparison can afford to just click Knock Off and then proceed to use his coverage move, punish basicly everything, example:
68 Atk Life Orb Thundurus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth: 90-107 (22.2 - 26.4%)
188 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tangrowth: 270-320 (66.8 - 79.2%)
Tats min 89% which is 100% kill after rocks.

With Knock Off you do not have to predict if Garchomp might switch into Tbolt. While HP Ice kills Scarfchomp from full anyway, Knock Off eases the prediction.

Kokos speedtier is very good, but it is falling down in relevance. Gyarados and Dragonites are using Jolly Nature mostly because of Koko, so they can outspeed it at +1. The only things relevant between 353 and 394 Speed is Greninja which is definitely an argument, but 353 Speed is still above average, barely outspeeding Mega Metagross, the best mon in the tier.

While Stealth Rocks+Life Orb will drain your HP Bar very quickly, rest assured. Thundurus shouldve done an amazing job before it faints.

 

[GH[O]ST]

I'd like to nominate Tapu Koko to be raised to A+

Tapu Koko is nuts right now. It is a momentum machine with incredible damage output (terrain boosted electric attack + nature's madness allows it to chunk anything except shedinja) and the highest non mega speed in the tier (until ash greninja transforms).

Koko is just incredibly potent on any offensive team as it has ways to pressure both offense and defense. The best answers to Koko, bulky grounds and bulky grasses, are heavily pressured as it is due to their overloaded defensive roles on most teams. U-turn/Volt Switch just makes using bulky grounds and grasses even more shaky as Koko can just U-turn into one of the many incredibly powerful breakers that it is often paired with. Electric Terrain gives the 3 best Megas in the tier the option of having "psuedo-STAB" thunder punch allowing them to further manhandle teams. Options of taunt and natures madness can be used t o shut down walls, support mons, webs leads, and even setup sweepers like volcarona and zard x trying to break through. The popularity and potency of spikes augments Koko's ability to hit hard and fast and disrupt any kind of team. Last but not least Koko's electric attacks are stronger than modest xurkitree's.

 

[Toshiro46]

I'd like to nominate Tapu Koko to be raised to A+

Tapu Koko is nuts right now. It is a momentum machine with incredible damage output (terrain boosted electric attack + nature's madness allows it to chunk anything except shedinja) and the highest non mega speed in the tier (until ash greninja transforms).

Koko is just incredibly potent on any offensive team as it has ways to pressure both offense and defense. The best answers to Koko, bulky grounds and bulky grasses, are heavily pressured as it is due to their overloaded defensive roles on most teams. U-turn/Volt Switch just makes using bulky grounds and grasses even more shaky as Koko can just U-turn into one of the many incredibly powerful breakers that it is often paired with. Electric Terrain gives the 3 best Megas in the tier the option of having "psuedo-STAB" thunder punch allowing them to further manhandle teams. Options of taunt and natures madness can be used t o shut down walls, support mons, webs leads, and even setup sweepers like volcarona and zard x trying to break through. The popularity and potency of spikes augments Koko's ability to hit hard and fast and disrupt any kind of team. Last but not least Koko's electric attacks are stronger than modest xurkitree's.

Besides thunderbolt and volt switch (both of which suffer from an immunity on almost every team as well as a fat resist like Tang/Ferro), Koko hits piss-weak. Nature's Madness is nice, except for the 90% accuracy and want to run other moves (besides the mostly mandatory TBolt/U Turn/Volt Switch, it has to consider HP Ice, Dazzling Gleam, Taunt, and Brave Bird). 95 SpA just isn't really great.

More importantly, everything that you've listed has been true for Koko from the beginning. What's changed in the meta or for it to justify a raise? Just saying "it's nuts right now" doesn't cut it. Why is nuts specifically right now? You did mention spikes, but if anything that hurts Koko, as it's a pivot with no recovery that wants to come in often. Entry hazard damage limits the amount of times it can do that.

 

[bb skarm]

Nah I could see Koko at A+. It always tears me apart even on the high end of the ladder and I think the only way I've been able to handle it is with Marowak-Alola since I hate stall. It definitely is an issue if you like HO and even balanced because not only is it quick and somewhat strong under terrain but since it has two pivot moves it grabs momentum and shifts the tide of the battle in my opp's favor. Honestly it's a staple on hyper offense if you ask me and coupled with Greninja it is such a worrying mon to face... looking at like six of my teams this thing dismantles each one end-game unless I have Marowak or maybe Magnezone.

There are arguments for it at A+ and A, personally I would wait it out but it could very well be put at that rank because of its pivot uses and high speed

 

[Toshiro46]

Nah I could see Koko at A+. It always tears me apart even on the high end of the ladder and I think the only way I've been able to handle it is with Marowak-Alola since I hate stall. It definitely is an issue if you like HO and even balanced because not only is it quick and somewhat strong under terrain but since it has two pivot moves it grabs momentum and shifts the tide of the battle in my opp's favor. Honestly it's a staple on hyper offense if you ask me and coupled with Greninja it is such a worrying mon to face... looking at like six of my teams this thing dismantles each one end-game unless I have Marowak or maybe Magnezone.

There are arguments for it at A+ and A, personally I would wait it out but it could very well be put at that rank because of its pivot uses and high speed

I didn't say it shouldn't be A+, I just think the argument presented wasn't a great one.

That said, I don't know that using your own teams' weaknesses to Koko is a great argument for a rise either.

 

[GH[O]ST]

Besides thunderbolt and volt switch (both of which suffer from an immunity on almost every team as well as a fat resist like Tang/Ferro), Koko hits piss-weak. Nature's Madness is nice, except for the 90% accuracy and want to run other moves (besides the mostly mandatory TBolt/U Turn/Volt Switch, it has to consider HP Ice, Dazzling Gleam, Taunt, and Brave Bird). 95 SpA just isn't really great.

More importantly, everything that you've listed has been true for Koko from the beginning. What's changed in the meta or for it to justify a raise? Just saying "it's nuts right now" doesn't cut it. Why is nuts specifically right now? You did mention spikes, but if anything that hurts Koko, as it's a pivot with no recovery that wants to come in often. Entry hazard damage limits the amount of times it can do that.

Electric immunities and fat resists are popular indeed, but like I mentioned, Koko has access to U-turn which allows it to completely turn the tables on the side trying to defend against it.

Bulky grounds and grasses are easy to overload. They are relied upon as answers to the premier offensive mons in the tier - Metagross, Lando T, Greninja, Zygarde, Mawile, etc in addition to Koko. Bulky grounds and grasses are also easy to exploit if they lose momentum, as they draw in the juggernaut breakers that litter the tier.

Everything I've listed has not been true for koko since the beginning. Ever since Pheromosa was banned, the tier slowed down, allowing Koko to eclipse every non-mega in speed and truly shine, AND slower breakers becoming more viable. Pheromosa was also one of the best hazard removers in the tier. With pheromosa gone, spike stacking has become easier and that plays right into the game of a highly potent offensive pivot like Koko.

The best Koko set imo is the Tbolt/Nature's Madness/Taunt/U-turn set. This set is almost perfect in that it allows counterplay against basically anything you can think of in the tier. It doesnt really need HP Ice or Dazzling Gleam because of its access to u-turn. That said, it has t he luxury of considering those moves.

 

[UltraBallz]

Besides thunderbolt and volt switch (both of which suffer from an immunity on almost every team as well as a fat resist like Tang/Ferro), Koko hits piss-weak. Nature's Madness is nice, except for the 90% accuracy and want to run other moves (besides the mostly mandatory TBolt/U Turn/Volt Switch, it has to consider HP Ice, Dazzling Gleam, Taunt, and Brave Bird). 95 SpA just isn't really great.

More importantly, everything that you've listed has been true for Koko from the beginning. What's changed in the meta or for it to justify a raise? Just saying "it's nuts right now" doesn't cut it. Why is nuts specifically right now? You did mention spikes, but if anything that hurts Koko, as it's a pivot with no recovery that wants to come in often. Entry hazard damage limits the amount of times it can do that.

I actually do think some things have changed recently putting Koko in a better place in the meta. For one, the introduction of huge breakers like Medicham and Mawille make pivots like Koko better as it gives teams ways to get these threats in for free. In addition, taunt Koko is a great answer to Sticky Web HO which has been very good and very common recently. Since a lot of offense runs no removal, taunt Koko is the best way for them to keep hazards like sticky webs off of the field. Also, since taunt is nearly staple on Koko now it becomes pretty useful against stall as well. It 2HKO's all of standard stall except chansey which you can taunt and u turn on it to keep it from recovering (and natures madness it if you run that set although i like uturn/tbolt/hpice/taunt).

Koko is the best offensive pivot in the tier and is useful against pretty much every single playstyle. It supports the best Mega's in the tier with terrain support and volt-turn to get them in safely plus it can threaten otherwise difficult matchups for offense like sticky webs. For these reasons I could definitely see this thing moving up.

 

[Toshiro46]

I actually do think some things have changed recently putting Koko in a better place in the meta. For one, the introduction of huge breakers like Medicham and Mawille make pivots like Koko better as it gives teams ways to get these threats in for free. In addition, taunt Koko is a great answer to Sticky Web HO which has been very good and very common recently. Since a lot of offense runs no removal, taunt Koko is the best way for them to keep hazards like sticky webs off of the field. Also, since taunt is nearly staple on Koko now it becomes pretty useful against stall as well. It 2HKO's all of standard stall except chansey which you can taunt and u turn on it to keep it from recovering (and natures madness it if you run that set although i like uturn/tbolt/hpice/taunt).

Koko is the best offensive pivot in the tier and is useful against pretty much every single playstyle. It supports the best Mega's in the tier with terrain support and volt-turn to get them in safely plus it can threaten otherwise difficult matchups for offense like sticky webs. For these reasons I could definitely see this thing moving up.

These are actual arguments for a rise, and the first one at least I completely agree with.

The recent introduction of Medicham and Mawile means Koko has two new excellent partners to work with, as they love getting in for free due to a koko u turn on something it forced out, and they both really appreciate the 1.5 boost to Thunder punch.

Taunt Koko, on the other hand, is beaten by Magic Coat Smeargle, which is one of the most common sets run on Webs HO. And without hazard removal, Sticky Web becomes a huge issue for Koko itself as its speed is diminished greatly.

Electric immunities and fat resists are popular indeed, but like I mentioned, Koko has access to U-turn which allows it to completely turn the tables on the side trying to defend against it.
This has been true from the get go. Why does this suddenly make him A+ material, and not A?

Bulky grounds and grasses are easy to overload. They are relied upon as answers to the premier offensive mons in the tier - Metagross, Lando T, Greninja, Zygarde, Mawile, etc in addition to Koko. Bulky grounds and grasses are also easy to exploit if they lose momentum, as they draw in the juggernaut breakers that litter the tier.

Also true from the get go, the only thing that has changed is the introduction of more slow breakers that like a free switch in.

Everything I've listed has not been true for koko since the beginning. Ever since Pheromosa was banned, the tier slowed down, allowing Koko to eclipse every non-mega in speed and truly shine, AND slower breakers becoming more viable. Pheromosa was also one of the best hazard removers in the tier. With pheromosa gone, spike stacking has become easier and that plays right into the game of a highly potent offensive pivot like Koko.

Phero being gone does indeed help Koko, but A-Gren still exists. Hey, you actually mentioned slower breakers too.

I still fail to understand why spike stacking is in favor of a pivot, which, if you don't recall, likes to come in often. Taking 12.5-25% (add another 12.5% for SR) damage from spikes every time it comes in is not in Koko's favor. Just one layer of spikes and SR means that Koko is only coming in 4 times throughout the match before it dies. Try pivoting with that.

The best Koko set imo is the Tbolt/Nature's Madness/Taunt/U-turn set. This set is almost perfect in that it allows counterplay against basically anything you can think of in the tier. It doesnt really need HP Ice or Dazzling Gleam because of its access to u-turn. That said, it has t he luxury of considering those moves.

Stating your personal opinion on the best Koko set while only saying "it allows counterplay against anything you can think of" does nothing for your argument. HP Ice is still valuable for punishing ground switch ins.

 

[UltraBallz]

These are actual arguments for a rise, and the first one at least I completely agree with.

The recent introduction of Medicham and Mawile means Koko has two new excellent partners to work with, as they love getting in for free due to a koko u turn on something it forced out, and they both really appreciate the 1.5 boost to Thunder punch.

Taunt Koko, on the other hand, is beaten by Magic Coat Smeargle, which is one of the most common sets run on Webs HO. And without hazard removal, Sticky Web becomes a huge issue for Koko itself as its speed is diminished greatly.

Yes Magic coat Smeargle can get hazards on Koko but its usually 50/50s then since you can tbolt and then smeargle gets no hazards up but this is hard for both players to try and pick out at team preview. I am more so referring to the standard set from the NJNP webs team of webs/rocks/spore/taunt.

Edit:Yeah nevermind the set is coat over taunt, don't know why I thought that. Anyways it still isn't as easy as click magic coat since Koko can easily kill you if you do that but I definitely agree with your points that Koko isn't a foolproof way to prevent hazards vs Smeargle

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

Only thought on koko vs smreagle is ithe prevents spore and nuzzle doesn't work on it so if they don't have magic coat it's a bad time and it's still possible they could just u-turn into hazard control and have its sash broken

Koko has no business being used as lead if they see shuckle because why wouldn't it run mental herb?

Think hp ice is to good to give up for beating 4x super effective things cause otherwise they can put a tear on someteams

 

[GH[O]ST]

These are actual arguments for a rise, and the first one at least I completely agree with.

The recent introduction of Medicham and Mawile means Koko has two new excellent partners to work with, as they love getting in for free due to a koko u turn on something it forced out, and they both really appreciate the 1.5 boost to Thunder punch.

Taunt Koko, on the other hand, is beaten by Magic Coat Smeargle, which is one of the most common sets run on Webs HO. And without hazard removal, Sticky Web becomes a huge issue for Koko itself as its speed is diminished greatly.

wtf? Everything Ultraballz said I had already said in post 1226, the post you first quoted. I mentioned the 3 best megas and thunderpunch (obviously metagross, medicham, and mawile based on viability rankings) and the fact that Koko matches up well against webs. I mentioned that Koko can shut down any wall too which is why it's effective vs Stall. Not sure why you're saying his are actual arguments as opposed to mine when his are the same thing i said.
Smeargle has to correctly predict whether or not Koko even has taunt and whether it will use it if it does. The advantage lies with the Koko user.

 

[robopoke]

These are actual arguments for a rise, and the first one at least I completely agree with.

The recent introduction of Medicham and Mawile means Koko has two new excellent partners to work with, as they love getting in for free due to a koko u turn on something it forced out, and they both really appreciate the 1.5 boost to Thunder punch.

Well, GH[O]ST mentioned everything by saying:
"Electric Terrain gives the 3 best Megas in the tier the option of having "psuedo-STAB" thunder punch allowing them to further manhandle teams."
Obviously, these are Metagross, Medicham and Mawile. I guess you just read too quickly and thought he did not provide enough reasons to support a rise.

Koko vs Webs:
Against Koko, imo it is best to lead with Zygarde honestly, force out the Koko, take the Uturn dmg and Thousand Arrows something like Landot. If its defensive Landot, you can double to Smeargle and get up your webs on it.

edit: was too late

 

[GH[O]ST]

I agree with robopoke regarding Koko vs webs. Youre playing a very dangerous game if you lead with smeargle. Koko can ruin a webs team turn 1 so you're best leading with your electric answer.