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Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread
- Thread starter Gary
- Start date
- Status
I would like to nominate Mega-Pinsir to A rank from A- . He is an excellent wall breaker with a good speed stat as well, and if it gets a swords dance up, it has potential to sweep with aerialite quick attack, return and Close Combat. He is the best mega in OU imo. It also has decent bulk sitting at 65/120/90 to ease the pressure of setting up with SD. It also cannot be destroyed by common rock types like Band Tyranitar because it has close combat. It's +2 quick attack can do extreme damage to frail Pokémon like greninja and pokemon weak to flying type moves. It is an excellent check to popular pokemon like Tangrowth, Keldeo, and Volcarona. If unprepared, a team can get blown away by Mega pinsir. Of course, Mega-Pinsir is not without his flaws. He is very weak to Stealth rock, especially when in mega form, and is outsped by most choice scarf users, and while it is fast, it is still outsped by a few notable pokemon like greninja, gengar, and weavile. That is why I think it should be placed in A rank, but no higher.
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I would also like to nominate Dragonite to B-. I'm not sure why it dropped to C+ In the first place, because if used correctly, it can and will sweep. After a single dragon dance, it has monstrous attack and is very fast, allowing it to do lots of damage fast, And with the help of multiscale, setting up the first DD is very easy, just be sure not to accidentally break it. With thunder punch and an electrium-Z after boosting, it can OHKO almost anything weak to an electric attack in OU. It can do insane damage to anything without a reliable check to it, which most teams lack atm, because dragonite is currently underrated. It also has great bulk in addition, further easing the pressure of setting up. Unfortunately, Dragonite does not have great speed unboosted, sitting at a mere 80, and is overshadowed by Garchomp and suffers from the Tapus, and it is weak to stealth rock. Despite these short comings, I do feel dragonite is criminally underused by many players, and I feel it should rise to B-
Fair enough. Depends what you're calling Mimikyu's niche though. Mimikyu isn't terribly fast, so if I understand correctly you're forced to clean with shadow sneak. While ghost is essentially unresisted, you're basically locked into a weak move to have any hope of cleaning if webs aren't up. As far as cleaners that use priority go, Zygarde and Protean Greninja are both superior, as they both offer utility outside of being a priority cleaner. Mega pinsir, the mega of choice for webs teams, is also better at this role, though the whole mega slot argument is a thing. Hell, even weavile and mamoswine can do things in addition to late game cleaning, whereas Mimikyu offers little and essentially can only clean once due to its reliance on swords dance to put out reasonable damage.
Under webs, of course, Mimikyu can actually outspeed some stuff, but so can anything else with above 96 base speed such as serp (snowballing is great but that's another story), chomp, keldeo, nihilego, and of course tapu koko, probably the best cleaner rn. My point here is that it's not exactly hard to find mons that can clean late game after stuff is weakened, especially under webs.
Where Mimikyu is good is that it provides the whole role compression thing of being a spinblocker, emergency check to weakened sweepers, and a serviceable (but not good, IMO) cleaner at once. This is a solid niche for webs teams, but one that doesn't deserve a rise.
So regarding my previous posts about Buzzwole, I maintain that it should be dropped, especialy in light of recent nominations and trends.
C+ -> C- / Unranked
So apparently Weavile is being brought back up for discussion, and this could be important for Buzzwole as it strengthens its niche, being a response to both Zygarde and Weavile with access to reliable recovery while not being completely passive, while also countering Bisharp, Kartana, and non-SD Mega Heracross I guess. However, Hidden Power Ice Mega Scizor is also starting to crop up, also being a very capable answer to Zygarde and Weavile, and while it lacks Buzzwole's immediate power for checking the offensive Steel-types, it makes up for with its superior resistances, priority, and pivoting ability, the latter of which is especially important since Buzzwole's limited choices for coverage (Hammer Arm, Ice Punch, and Roost are all mandatory) forces it to make doubles or be largely vulnerable to a significant amount of threats. Being a Zygarde check with recovery is one of the primary reasons to run this, but Tapu Bulu is still doing very well if not even better for itself, as it can crush half the meta with its raw power alone while still maintaining a very reasonable amount of healing. Any sign of Buzzwole's offensive niche is pretty much gone at this point, and if Mega Heracross's nomination to drop means anything, it's that it won't get better from here on out. I also can't imagine the rise of Mega Pinsir and Skystrike Landorus-T to not be adversely impactful to Buzzwole's standing in the meta either.
At this point, the only reason I hesitate from nominating this to Unranked outright is because it does wall a unique combination of dangerous threats and doesn't cost a Mega slot like Mega Scizor does, but its vulnerability to so many other offensive threats in the meta can mean that it often create more problems than it solves, which isn't a trait you want for a Pokemon that only really gets considered during the later stages of teambuilding to patch up holes in a team.
So apparently Weavile is being brought back up for discussion, and this could be important for Buzzwole as it strengthens its niche, being a response to both Zygarde and Weavile with access to reliable recovery while not being completely passive, while also countering Bisharp, Kartana, and non-SD Mega Heracross I guess. However, Hidden Power Ice Mega Scizor is also starting to crop up, also being a very capable answer to Zygarde and Weavile, and while it lacks Buzzwole's immediate power for checking the offensive Steel-types, it makes up for with its superior resistances, priority, and pivoting ability, the latter of which is especially important since Buzzwole's limited choices for coverage (Hammer Arm, Ice Punch, and Roost are all mandatory) forces it to make doubles or be largely vulnerable to a significant amount of threats. Being a Zygarde check with recovery is one of the primary reasons to run this, but Tapu Bulu is still doing very well if not even better for itself, as it can crush half the meta with its raw power alone while still maintaining a very reasonable amount of healing. Any sign of Buzzwole's offensive niche is pretty much gone at this point, and if Mega Heracross's nomination to drop means anything, it's that it won't get better from here on out. I also can't imagine the rise of Mega Pinsir and Skystrike Landorus-T to not be adversely impactful to Buzzwole's standing in the meta either.
At this point, the only reason I hesitate from nominating this to Unranked outright is because it does wall a unique combination of dangerous threats and doesn't cost a Mega slot like Mega Scizor does, but its vulnerability to so many other offensive threats in the meta can mean that it often create more problems than it solves, which isn't a trait you want for a Pokemon that only really gets considered during the later stages of teambuilding to patch up holes in a team.
mega zor is not an answer to zyg because it takes a ton from cb thousand arrows. buzzwole resists the move allowing it to check zyg much more easily. also mega scizor takes up your mega slot which doesn't mean as much as it used to but man it's still a pretty big deal.So regarding my previous posts about Buzzwole, I maintain that it should be dropped, especialy in light of recent nominations and trends.
C+ -> C- / Unranked
So apparently Weavile is being brought back up for discussion, and this could be important for Buzzwole as it strengthens its niche, being a response to both Zygarde and Weavile with access to reliable recovery while not being completely passive, while also countering Bisharp, Kartana, and non-SD Mega Heracross I guess. However, Hidden Power Ice Mega Scizor is also starting to crop up, also being a very capable answer to Zygarde and Weavile,
fighting/ice coverage is actually really good, although buzzwole won't be doing much damage vs guys like fini it still has a niche in smacking lando. in fact buzzwole hard counters all forms of lando except flyinium (something mega scizor wishes it could do).
buzzwole counters zyg, bulu checks it. bulu is absolutely demolished by cb iron tail and if bulu is your zyg answer on a balance teams then idk what to tell you man. buzzwole's much better defensive stats allow it to take hits from zyg comfortably.
mega heracross dropped because bp was banned, not because of its performance in the metagame. either way it's a much more offensively focused mon than buzzwole, which uses recovery. idk about that metagame trend argument ("it won't get better from here on out") means, like if anything buzzwole derives enormous benefit from the growing usage of dark types such as ttar and weavile.
i mean buzzwole isn't a good mon. but is it really worth dropping below stuff like zyg 10% and bronzong? there is still a reason to use buzzwole in the metagame, it's a very solid dark and ground resist that isn't really passive. this is why i believe that buzzwole should stay in c+. thanks.
Mega scizor A- -> B+
I feel that scizor took a big hit since the metagross ban. Atm mega scizor isn't that great of a pick for mega slot. Facing competition for steels like av magearna and celesteela and so on which they can be more easy to slap on bulkier teams and still have a mega slot open It loses to set sweepers and to me feels way too passive in this meta/gen. Toxaphex,lele, celesteela, and z moves are just too much for this mon to even set up sadly. Only thing that zor is okay at is Defog but to me that ruins its offensive potential and kills momentum.
I feel that scizor took a big hit since the metagross ban. Atm mega scizor isn't that great of a pick for mega slot. Facing competition for steels like av magearna and celesteela and so on which they can be more easy to slap on bulkier teams and still have a mega slot open It loses to set sweepers and to me feels way too passive in this meta/gen. Toxaphex,lele, celesteela, and z moves are just too much for this mon to even set up sadly. Only thing that zor is okay at is Defog but to me that ruins its offensive potential and kills momentum.
Sueshidragon
Banned deucer.
Here's a nomination I wanna make, and that's Azelf from C to C+. There's a lot of reasons why I think Azelf merits a rise, and here's why. The very first, and primary reason, is that it's completely better than almost all the other Pokemon in C. I mean, come on. Regular Kyurem, Magneton, and Alolan Ninetales? Come on, Azelf is a premier suicide lead for HO teams, and there is no way it is on par with those three. It's qualities as a lead and the things it can do for HO, a top trend this meta, merit it at least a C+. Skill Swap and Taunt ruin almost all of the common leads nowadays, and Stealth Rocks + Explosion is an amazing way to bring in another HO Pokemon. While yes, not too much has changed, I just think Azelf was placed wrong to begin with. The trends towards HO in the meta, however, provide a good reason to use Azelf on HO teams. It's a very much slept on Pokemon, and the potential Azelf has is very seriously underrated this generation. I'd love to see a bit more love for Azelf, and there's so much it can do. If anyone wants to add something, I'm welcome to open criticism, but I would like to see this idea go a bit further.
I think azelf and alolan ninetails being in the same rank is fine. Ninetails is a better screen setter, azelf sets screens and rocks. Nothing has changed for it and tbh, ninja and koko are like the most common leads these days and they both give azelf a hard time, be it thru taunt or just hitting azelf hard to get 2HKOs (or koko can OHKO if no sash) so it just gets to set up 1 of the 3 things it's trying to.Or if it's just rocks and explode, it means you wasted a mon just to get up rocks and didn't even explode.
But mainly, there's nothing easier than taunting azelf with your koko and then uturning into a superior position.
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Sueshidragon
Banned deucer.
"If it's just rocks and explode, it means you wasted a Mon just to get up rocks" that's, uh, that's what a suicide lead is supposed to do. Get rocks up and pave the way for a sweeper to follow. Koko and Gren are not the most common leads nowadays, 9/10 I see rocksetter Lando-T as a lead, who Azelf can Taunt, get Rocks up, and Explode on, as he does for all SR rocks leads. Azelf also doesn't set up dual screens, I'm not sure if you've used an Azelf extensively, but that is't what they do. All Azelf run Sash, 100% of the time, and not all Koko will run Taunt. It isn't meant to set up rocks repeatedly over the course of the match, it's a HYPER OFFENSE suicide lead. I haven't seen Alolan Ninetales used much, and it gets beat by Azelf in the lead category anyways with just a simple Taunt. As for Koko and Greni, Those two aren't very common leads, and while they do threaten Azelf, U-Turn isn't an OHKO even with Sash. I suggest you learn a bit more about Azelf before trying to refute it, as I've used one heavily on teams and know a lot about it.
Just a quick question abt properly ranking C-mons:
I think I read in an ironic statement from you Gary how it is not important to rank C-mons precisly. So I want to know why not remove C+ and C- and have only a C rank? That way we can acknowledge that these C-mons have niches on specific teams (example Crawdaunt on Trick Room or Azelf as HO Suicidelead) but are not worth our time to discuss wether they deserve C+ or C-.
I think I read in an ironic statement from you Gary how it is not important to rank C-mons precisly. So I want to know why not remove C+ and C- and have only a C rank? That way we can acknowledge that these C-mons have niches on specific teams (example Crawdaunt on Trick Room or Azelf as HO Suicidelead) but are not worth our time to discuss wether they deserve C+ or C-.
That is wrong. Koko and Gren are VERY common leads. I really don't know where you got that, but if they are on a team, it has a high chance of being a lead. They both have the speed and abilities necessary for them to function perfectly as leads, even over Lando. And while not all Koko run Taunt, a lot of them do (and most should.)
Sueshidragon
Banned deucer.
Eh, I'm not used to seeing them much, and even as such, Azelf still has the qualities to be better than C. Koko and Greninja may beat it, but personally Azelf's amazing niche as a suicide lead for HO merits it higher. It has things that those two don't, Skill Swap, Explosion, and Stealth Rocks, and the ability to reliably do its job when it ISN'T against them. Having counters doesn't invalidate Azelf, every Pokemon has them, and a team can be easily configured to work around Greni and Koko.
Okay, so why would I ever use it over Smeargle, who has a larger movepool and Spore? I'm not sure it has enough advantages over Smeargle to be higher than C. That said, I don't actually use it, so I could be wrong there.
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Because unlike Smeargle, Azelf has actual stats. It's fast enough to outspeed a large number of threats, and has good offensive stats, which lets it put a dent into something before going down.
There is no reason for Azelf to rise rn.
While Gren and Koko aren't more prominent leads than Lando but if the opponent sees Azelf on the other side they are very likely to lead with either to stop Azelf leads. The presence of 2 pokemon that outspeed it and that potentially can carry taunt make Azelf a lot more shaky of a lead than usual in the metagame. You either blow up and accept a trade on Gren and Koko and forgo rocks (or even worse if they U-Turn out) or accept an Azelf KO without going boom to set up rocks (which stinks if they actually have taunt). Because of the above issues its actually pretty prediction dependent to use Azelf optimally getting both rocks and boom off without a hitch in a lot of matchups. While Azelf is still the best pokemon if you want to stop opposing rocks while getting up your own its not extremely reliable and the HO teams it supports haven't reach nearly the same level of prominence they did last gen.
Also it doesn't face competition with Smeargle lol. Smeargle sets webs up and unlike Azelf since its so damn slow it can't stop fast opposing rocks setters which means it doesn't fill Azelfs role of basically exchanging a team slot for rocks on your opposing side while having no rocks on your own. They're very different pokemon despite both being suicide leads, though Smeargle niche on Sticky Web is a lot better than Azelf's niche on some HO teams right now.
While Gren and Koko aren't more prominent leads than Lando but if the opponent sees Azelf on the other side they are very likely to lead with either to stop Azelf leads. The presence of 2 pokemon that outspeed it and that potentially can carry taunt make Azelf a lot more shaky of a lead than usual in the metagame. You either blow up and accept a trade on Gren and Koko and forgo rocks (or even worse if they U-Turn out) or accept an Azelf KO without going boom to set up rocks (which stinks if they actually have taunt). Because of the above issues its actually pretty prediction dependent to use Azelf optimally getting both rocks and boom off without a hitch in a lot of matchups. While Azelf is still the best pokemon if you want to stop opposing rocks while getting up your own its not extremely reliable and the HO teams it supports haven't reach nearly the same level of prominence they did last gen.
Also it doesn't face competition with Smeargle lol. Smeargle sets webs up and unlike Azelf since its so damn slow it can't stop fast opposing rocks setters which means it doesn't fill Azelfs role of basically exchanging a team slot for rocks on your opposing side while having no rocks on your own. They're very different pokemon despite both being suicide leads, though Smeargle niche on Sticky Web is a lot better than Azelf's niche on some HO teams right now.
Sueshidragon
Banned deucer.
I don't know, Azelf has HIGHER STATS IN EVERYTHING? As well as the ability to actually damage things, that's a decent plus. Base 125 attack compared to base 20 is something.
Yes, it's a shaky lead, but you guys seem to be missing the point. It's far better than the rest of the C mons is what I'm saying. Outside of A-Ninetales and MAAAYBE Hydregion/Tentacruel, none of them have anywhere near the utility or potential that Azelf does. It is by NO MEANS as good a lead as Koko or Greninja, but it is certainly ranked among Pokemon far inferior to it.
I'm still not sure why Amoongus is A-.
This thing is clearly not as good as things like Zam, Char-Y, Heracross, Medicham, Pinsir, Latios, and basically almost every mon in that tier. Why is it still there?
First of all: The only reason you would ever opt to run Gus > Tangrowth is spore + regenerator. The only thing Gus has going for it is its ability to be an effective pivot and spread 100% accurate sleep, and I'm not sure in what world this is worthy of A- ranking. Let's take a look at the mons that Amoongus loses to, assuming it's running SpDef:
Offensive Lando
Protean Greninja
Ash-Greninja (dark pulse 2ohkos)
Magearna (2hkos + outspeeds)
Tangrowth (if no sludge bomb)
Tapu Lele
Volcarona
Zygarde
Garchomp
~Gengar (specs 2hkos w/ rocks)
Mawile
Mega Alakazam
Mega Charizard-Y
Mega Heracross
Mega Mawile
Mega Pinsir
Tornadus-T
.... and I think you get the point by now. Now granted, Amoongus's role isn't to 1v1 or be this extreme blanket check to the whole meta. However, the fact that it's so damn passive after sporing something and isn't walling shit in this hard hitting meta leaves me baffled as to why it sits in A-.
Current meta trends that affect it:
Rise of bulky psychics
Rise of steels such as Celesteela and Magearna, who both outspeed
Hazards really limit its ability to regain its health through regenerator
Rise of hard hitting Megas i.e. Pinsir, Heracross, Medicham, and Mawile
More offensive flying types
VOLCARONA
Weavile
Now I'm not gonna beat the dead horse here and explain exactly how these meta trends affect it as they're pretty self explanatory if you've been keeping up w/ them. Correct me if I'm wrong or missing something, but very rarely do I ever find myself saying "hm, I could really benefit from using Amoongus here." Only ONCE have I ever seen a team in SM that Amoongus actually fit quite nicely in. This is definitely, definitely not A- worthy and needs to be moved down to at least B+ (or even B, as Bisharp, Jirachi, Hoopa, Terrak, and Torn are better than it too).
Fungus A- ---> Somewhere in the B's
This thing is clearly not as good as things like Zam, Char-Y, Heracross, Medicham, Pinsir, Latios, and basically almost every mon in that tier. Why is it still there?
First of all: The only reason you would ever opt to run Gus > Tangrowth is spore + regenerator. The only thing Gus has going for it is its ability to be an effective pivot and spread 100% accurate sleep, and I'm not sure in what world this is worthy of A- ranking. Let's take a look at the mons that Amoongus loses to, assuming it's running SpDef:
Offensive Lando
Protean Greninja
Ash-Greninja (dark pulse 2ohkos)
Magearna (2hkos + outspeeds)
Tangrowth (if no sludge bomb)
Tapu Lele
Volcarona
Zygarde
Garchomp
~Gengar (specs 2hkos w/ rocks)
Mawile
Mega Alakazam
Mega Charizard-Y
Mega Heracross
Mega Mawile
Mega Pinsir
Tornadus-T
.... and I think you get the point by now. Now granted, Amoongus's role isn't to 1v1 or be this extreme blanket check to the whole meta. However, the fact that it's so damn passive after sporing something and isn't walling shit in this hard hitting meta leaves me baffled as to why it sits in A-.
Current meta trends that affect it:
Rise of bulky psychics
Rise of steels such as Celesteela and Magearna, who both outspeed
Hazards really limit its ability to regain its health through regenerator
Rise of hard hitting Megas i.e. Pinsir, Heracross, Medicham, and Mawile
More offensive flying types
VOLCARONA
Weavile
Now I'm not gonna beat the dead horse here and explain exactly how these meta trends affect it as they're pretty self explanatory if you've been keeping up w/ them. Correct me if I'm wrong or missing something, but very rarely do I ever find myself saying "hm, I could really benefit from using Amoongus here." Only ONCE have I ever seen a team in SM that Amoongus actually fit quite nicely in. This is definitely, definitely not A- worthy and needs to be moved down to at least B+ (or even B, as Bisharp, Jirachi, Hoopa, Terrak, and Torn are better than it too).
Fungus A- ---> Somewhere in the B's
@ above post by user: DownAbove
I think you're entirely wrong about dropping Amoonguss, but I'm not gonna bother going through everything you posted. I just wanted to point out that the bit about Ash Gren 2HKOing is entirely pointless because Amoonguss completely walls Battle Bond Specs Gren if it lacks Esens/Ice Beam, meaning it can't transform if you play it correctly (if they click Ice Beam or Esens vs. Amoong and it's clearly Specs, then you just pivot into your Ice/Psychic resist).
Amoonguss is nice to have for actually dealing with Specs Keld (AV Tang is a garbage check to it and can only manage Scarf sets) if you can cope with the lack of a Thousands Arrows resist (if you're running Bold Clef or something).
I think you're entirely wrong about dropping Amoonguss, but I'm not gonna bother going through everything you posted. I just wanted to point out that the bit about Ash Gren 2HKOing is entirely pointless because Amoonguss completely walls Battle Bond Specs Gren if it lacks Esens/Ice Beam, meaning it can't transform if you play it correctly (if they click Ice Beam or Esens vs. Amoong and it's clearly Specs, then you just pivot into your Ice/Psychic resist).
Amoonguss is nice to have for actually dealing with Specs Keld (AV Tang is a garbage check to it and can only manage Scarf sets) if you can cope with the lack of a Thousands Arrows resist (if you're running Bold Clef or something).
Yeah, guess I didn't even think about Ash Gren before transforming for some reason so that's my b. Always seem to mindlessly leave that out
I know Gus is nice to have in certain scenarios. Like you said, it serves as an effective stop to Specs Keld which 2hkos Tang. I saw a team a while back running Bold Clef + Chansey + Gus + other fat stuff where Gus was clearly the better option. But is it really as influential in a game as something like Pinsir or Medicham can be? Especially considering the fact that the tiering team was considering dropping stuff like Keld to A-and hell no Gus isn't as good as that either (if it were to drop.. but I know speculating is bad).
I'm actually legitimately curious, because I can't see how this thing fits in A-. B+ is by no means bad - but then again, I have no idea what to say about it if I don't hear people's side on why it deserves A-.
EDIT AHappyCactus : Doesn't really do a good job vs Mawile, seeing as switching into Play Rough + Iron Head kills it, and you better hope they don't sub on Spore.
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If scarf was kelds only set then a drop would be very understandable but I think since specs is a thing with fight coverage being very good tight now and does things like this:
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 184-217 (50.6 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth: 171-202 (42.3 - 50%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Celesteela: 202-238 (50.7 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth: 171-202 (42.3 - 50%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Celesteela: 202-238 (50.7 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
It's cool and it has fun with stall but with the omnipresence of Lando, Tox still being a thing, Clef rising, and so much being faster than it doesn't find as many opportunities to come in. Like if Zygarde click Outrage instead of arrows, Lando clicking SSSS etc etc. Also has to choose between Sub and SD for the 4th option; like, choosing SD makes it harder to break stall, while sub makes it harder to break bulky teams (that don't fall under stall) spikes being so good makes it harder to come in often, but that's everything so yknow
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Amoongus A- to B+: AGREE
Amoongus is a very good counter to specs keld and ass-greninja as mentioned earlier. However, the meta is VERY unkind to it. Its four weakness, flying, fire, psychic, and ice are quite common in the metagame. Many pokemon Carry ice beam, Tapu Lele hype is still existing and has SUPER DUPER high usage on the ladder. There are plenty of fire types running around, like Volcorona(especially Volc). Automize Celesteel is STILL a thing(despite losing popularity). Amoongus is definitely a good wall for many pokemon in the meta, but the meta is going against it. I think it is time for it to drop.
No opinion on Keldeo.
Amoongus is a very good counter to specs keld and ass-greninja as mentioned earlier. However, the meta is VERY unkind to it. Its four weakness, flying, fire, psychic, and ice are quite common in the metagame. Many pokemon Carry ice beam, Tapu Lele hype is still existing and has SUPER DUPER high usage on the ladder. There are plenty of fire types running around, like Volcorona(especially Volc). Automize Celesteel is STILL a thing(despite losing popularity). Amoongus is definitely a good wall for many pokemon in the meta, but the meta is going against it. I think it is time for it to drop.
No opinion on Keldeo.
I'm a bit confused why people don't understand what Amoonguss does over Tangrowth. First off, it's already 2 sub ranks lower - it's obvious that Tangrowth is better but that alone doesn't mean Amoonguss should drop further.
Amoonguss is definitely better against non-Fire Fang Mawile. Iron Head Mawile is bad -- don't use it -- and Substitute variants are quite rare and wouldn't normally carry a move that is too threatening to Amoonguss. Specs Keldeo was brought up as something Amoonguss is also a better check to, and that's certainly important as well. Other notable mons that it checks better: Gengar (no Poison weakness), Tapu Bulu without Zen Headbutt (which is becoming a rarer coverage move on it as Mega Venusaur fell out of favor), Clefable (Tangrowth hates Knock Off), non Ice Beam Magearna, Serperior, and Nihilego. It also soaks up Toxic Spikes from Toxapex which are generally really detrimental to Tangrowth. Also, Black Sludge recovery is extremely useful in staying healthy, whereas Tangrowth relies solely on Regenerator on AV sets. Let's not undersell Spore either, as it can be absolutely huge in certain matches. I think this mon is fine where it is. I won't say there's no argument for it to drop, but I haven't seen a convincing one yet. I mean, Fire and Flying types are still extremely threatening to Tangrowth as well, and it's not exactly a surefire check to Specs Latios or Specs Tapu Lele, which may be more threatening to Amoonguss but that doesn't mean Tangrowth is a great answer to them.
Amoonguss is definitely better against non-Fire Fang Mawile. Iron Head Mawile is bad -- don't use it -- and Substitute variants are quite rare and wouldn't normally carry a move that is too threatening to Amoonguss. Specs Keldeo was brought up as something Amoonguss is also a better check to, and that's certainly important as well. Other notable mons that it checks better: Gengar (no Poison weakness), Tapu Bulu without Zen Headbutt (which is becoming a rarer coverage move on it as Mega Venusaur fell out of favor), Clefable (Tangrowth hates Knock Off), non Ice Beam Magearna, Serperior, and Nihilego. It also soaks up Toxic Spikes from Toxapex which are generally really detrimental to Tangrowth. Also, Black Sludge recovery is extremely useful in staying healthy, whereas Tangrowth relies solely on Regenerator on AV sets. Let's not undersell Spore either, as it can be absolutely huge in certain matches. I think this mon is fine where it is. I won't say there's no argument for it to drop, but I haven't seen a convincing one yet. I mean, Fire and Flying types are still extremely threatening to Tangrowth as well, and it's not exactly a surefire check to Specs Latios or Specs Tapu Lele, which may be more threatening to Amoonguss but that doesn't mean Tangrowth is a great answer to them.
How can people like posts within 1-2min when they could not even read the post? Better wait at least 5 minutes or you will make yourself look like fanboys who do not care about arguments:
Some more reasons for an Amoonguss Drop:
1) Arguably better mons in the same subrank:
It is in the same Rank as defensive behemoths (Chansey, Skarmory), offensive behemoths (Mega Pinsir, Zardy) and Stall staples (Mega Sableye, Clefable). Chansey, Skarmory, Sableye and Clef are found on almost all stall teams. Mega Pinsir is a huge threat and is a staple on every fking Sticky Web team. Zardy is also very common and useful on Fini, Dugtrio teams. On which teams is Amoonguss, also an A- mon a staple on? None because it is easier to build with AV Tang + checks and potential T-Spikes absorber than Amoonguss+Zygarde Check+Lando-T Check etc.
2) Amoonguss has no offensive presence after Spore:
a) Amoonguss is NOT a Specs Gengar check and (obv not a switch in) after losing its Spore or if Gengar is being protected by Misty/Electric Terrain. Amoonguss offensive presence equals zero and the best common move it has to touch Gengar with is HP Fire, which does like 21.8% max.
b) Play Rough from Mega Mawile can 2HKO Amoonguss after Rocks and even if it doesnt, you will need the Spore to threaten out Mega Mawile. HP Fire does 31.5% max to 0/0 MMawile.
c) Even if Amoonguss can eat up hits from Magearna easier, it can just be Volt Switched on and be used as setup bait (Sub DD Zygarde for example and Giga Drain does not even break the sub of 0/0 Zygarde).
3) Fails to counter Bulu reliably:
While Zen Headbutt is a rarity on Bulu, let us not forget the common use of Z Stone Edge.
4) Amoonguss is better in Tournaments, just like Mantine:
Amoonguss is more like a counterteam thing that does help if your opponent e.g. loves to use SubSeed Serperior and TSpikes and "counterteam Mons" should be max B+ or even B imo (similiar to Mantine).
5) Rising usage of Pursuittrappers:
Amoonguss takes up to 76% from Band TTar Pursuit and 64% from Weavile.
6) Rising usage of Latios:
252 SpA Latios Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 44 Def Amoonguss: 332-392 (77 - 90.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
7) Mega Zam raise:
From my experience, MZam is a pretty common Mega right now. I assume it is used to counter Rain teams. Mega Swampert is spammed alot the last few days and MZam helps against that which is annoying for Amoonguss. Amoonguss dies to rainboosted Waterfall + Ice Punch from MSwampert, if you think Amoonguss can switch into that.
I also never see Amoonguss being used on the ladder (this whole week with ~30 laddergames a day between 1650 and 1950 points). I see Mega Venusaur much more often even though it wastes the Mega Slot.
Some more reasons for an Amoonguss Drop:
1) Arguably better mons in the same subrank:
It is in the same Rank as defensive behemoths (Chansey, Skarmory), offensive behemoths (Mega Pinsir, Zardy) and Stall staples (Mega Sableye, Clefable). Chansey, Skarmory, Sableye and Clef are found on almost all stall teams. Mega Pinsir is a huge threat and is a staple on every fking Sticky Web team. Zardy is also very common and useful on Fini, Dugtrio teams. On which teams is Amoonguss, also an A- mon a staple on? None because it is easier to build with AV Tang + checks and potential T-Spikes absorber than Amoonguss+Zygarde Check+Lando-T Check etc.
2) Amoonguss has no offensive presence after Spore:
a) Amoonguss is NOT a Specs Gengar check and (obv not a switch in) after losing its Spore or if Gengar is being protected by Misty/Electric Terrain. Amoonguss offensive presence equals zero and the best common move it has to touch Gengar with is HP Fire, which does like 21.8% max.
b) Play Rough from Mega Mawile can 2HKO Amoonguss after Rocks and even if it doesnt, you will need the Spore to threaten out Mega Mawile. HP Fire does 31.5% max to 0/0 MMawile.
c) Even if Amoonguss can eat up hits from Magearna easier, it can just be Volt Switched on and be used as setup bait (Sub DD Zygarde for example and Giga Drain does not even break the sub of 0/0 Zygarde).
3) Fails to counter Bulu reliably:
While Zen Headbutt is a rarity on Bulu, let us not forget the common use of Z Stone Edge.
4) Amoonguss is better in Tournaments, just like Mantine:
Amoonguss is more like a counterteam thing that does help if your opponent e.g. loves to use SubSeed Serperior and TSpikes and "counterteam Mons" should be max B+ or even B imo (similiar to Mantine).
5) Rising usage of Pursuittrappers:
Amoonguss takes up to 76% from Band TTar Pursuit and 64% from Weavile.
6) Rising usage of Latios:
252 SpA Latios Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 44 Def Amoonguss: 332-392 (77 - 90.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
7) Mega Zam raise:
From my experience, MZam is a pretty common Mega right now. I assume it is used to counter Rain teams. Mega Swampert is spammed alot the last few days and MZam helps against that which is annoying for Amoonguss. Amoonguss dies to rainboosted Waterfall + Ice Punch from MSwampert, if you think Amoonguss can switch into that.
I also never see Amoonguss being used on the ladder (this whole week with ~30 laddergames a day between 1650 and 1950 points). I see Mega Venusaur much more often even though it wastes the Mega Slot.
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