Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

Status
Not open for further replies.
Doesn't change anything me or Vertex said against nihilego.

Literally every turn is a prediction with nihilego, that's why it's a sub par scarfer. Specs works cause you at least you have the higher potential to sweep with the boosts.
 
I'm not sure whether Nihilego should drop or not and I'm not much of a good player but why are you guys being so....hard to deal with? And why are we even talking about prediction? I often heard that prediction was never a good argument so why are we using it here? Also can't a lot of set up sweepers like kick the scarfers' ass on the switch?

The main point that I'd like to address is why are we keep bashing each other? I'm not saying that we need to be polite or anything but if you don't reply well, i'd doubt the other will sit and listen to what you say. I won't like getting shit on by some guy and i think Toshiro won't either. If you disagree, then only state what you disagree with. Toshiro can very well be wrong but why are you trying to reply on the first place? Are you trying to convince Toshiro? Are you stating your opinion? Whatever it is, you can do it without bashing. At least, don't say you're flabbergasted or something. It's like rly irritating especially if you bolded it.

lol
 
I realize now that I definitely overrated Nihilego in my post a while back. Not a formal nom, but I agree that it should probably drop, or at best stay where its at. Now, to make this not a useless post, here's a nom of my own.


Tornadus-T from B+ -> A-.

Tornadus-T is a severly underrated threat in the metagame imo. Its combination of U-Turn + Regenerator is extremely annoying to deal with, as it is able to get momentum while healing itself by 33% (even if rocks are up, it still gets ~8% back when it comes in. Its AV set allows it to take hits from threats such as Gengar, Scarf Keldeo, and Latios and proceed to threaten them out with a knock off or hurricane, depending on the mon. AV can also check Mega Pinsir since it lives +2 Quick Attack after rocks and kills with hurricane. Its Life Orb set can be used to break through bulkier teams and offense alike. STAB Life orb Hurricane 2HKO's stuff like Toxapex and Mega Sableye. It can also kill Chansey with the combination of Knock off + Superpower after rocks. Tornadus can run many coverage/utility moves in its last 3 slots. For example, it can run Heat wave for celesteela/ferrothorn, superpower for heatran/chansey, taunt to annoy bulkier teams (if its not AV ofc), knock off to remove items like Chanseys eviolite, U-Turn for momentum, and even HP ice for Landorus and Zygarde. You get the point. It can run any of these moves effectively depending on what the team needs. It can also negate a lot of the Life Orb recoil it takes because of regenerator. Its speed tier, while unfortunately outsped by Greninja and Koko, still allows it to outspeed things like Gengar, Latios, Garchomp, Mega Pinsir, and Sash Alakazam. Tornadus also appreciates the amount of usage bulky grasses are seeing, as those can give Tornadus free hits to throw off. Overall, I believe Tornadus is an underrated mon that fits more with the mons in A- than the ones in B+.
 
Last edited:

Sueshidragon

Banned deucer.
I realize now that I definitely overrated Nihilego in my post a while back. Not a formal nom, but I agree that it should probably drop, or at best stay where its at. Now, to make this not a useless post, here's a nom of my own.


Tornadus-T from B+ -> A-.

Tornadus-T is a severly underrated threat in the metagame imo. Its combination of U-Turn + Regenerator is extremely annoying to deal with, as it is able to get momentum while healing itself by 33% (even if rocks are up, it still gets ~8% back when it comes in. Its AV set allows it to take hits from threats such as Gengar, Scarf Keldeo, and Latios and proceed to threaten them out with a knock off or hurricane, depending on the mon. Its Life Orb set can be used to break through bulkier teams and offense alike. Life orb allows it to do things like 2HKO Toxapex and Mega Sableye with hurricane, and kill Chansey with the combination of Knock off + Superpower after rocks. Tornadus can run many coverage/utility moves in its last 3 slots (1 slot is for hurricane). It can run Heat wave for celesteela/ferrothorn, superpower for heatran/chansey, taunt to annoy bulkier teams (if its not AV ofc), knock off to remove items like Chanseys eviolite, U-Turn for momentum, and even HP ice for Landorus and Zygarde. You get the point. It can run any of these moves effectively depending on what the team needs. Its speed tier, while unfortunately outsped by Greninja and Koko, still allows it to outspeed things like Gengar, Latios, Garchomp, Mega Pinsir, and Sash Alakazam. Tornadus also appreciates the amount of usage bulky grasses are seeing, as those can give Tornadus free hits to throw off. Overall, I believe Tornadus is an underrated mon that fits more with the mons in A- than the ones in B+.
Aight, yes. I support this. Tornadus-T fits well on a lot of team builds, and IMO it's ability to generate momentum and put the pressure on many team archetypes is something that leaves me questioning why it's only BL. Assault Vest variants switch in very comfortable against the likes of Magearna, Gengar, Keldeo, Fini, and Greninja (Magearna provided it isn't Specs, cuz Tbolt hurts.) All of those have huge amounts of usage recently, and with how well they go on special-balance teams, Tornadus checks them with ease. If you're still on the fence about this, I give you: damage calculations!
-252 SpA Choice Specs Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian: 270-320 (74.7 - 88.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
--Avoids OHKO from Specs Protean Greninja's Ice Beam
-252+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian: 253-298 (70 - 82.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
--Avoids the OHKO from Specs Magearna's Fleur Cannon
-252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian: 195-229 (54 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-0 SpA Tornadus-Therian Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 282-332 (87.3 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
--Not OHKOed by Specs Keldeo's Hydro Pump, and can dismantle it easily by virtue of Speed and Hurricane
As if this wasn't enough, it fears very little from some of the most common Pokemon in OU. Tapu Fini can't touch this thing bar Nature's Madness which can be healed off via Regenerator, Z-move Lando-T variants fear the OHKO from Hurricane/HP Ice after Rocks, Mega Heracross and Mega Medicham dead lose to Hurricane, Mega Mawile eats a guaranteed 2HKO from Heat Wave, Mega Scizor eats an OHKO, Zygarde fears HP Ice 2HKO and can't do a whole lot with Thousand Arrows... this thing not being higher is truly an insult to everything it can do. Yes, it's subject to it's fair share of residual damage, relying on Regenerator for recovery, and it's moves don't have perfect accuracy, but Tornadus-T is being slept on so hard it isn't even funny. It's got ample amounts of coverage alongside Hurricane to deal with, well, just about anything the team needs. Need a Garchomp, Lando, Zygarde, and Mence counter? HP Ice. Need something to crumble Chansey and Heatran? Superpower is (unreliably) there. Ferrothorn, Scizor, and Celesteela being a pain? Heat Wave! Along with coverage moves, it also gets utility moves, like Knock Off and U-Turn, improving it's matchup against many Pokemon commonly seen nowadays. Now, if that doesn't merit a rise for this thing, I don't know what does.
 
I, too, like to do 3% to the Magearna, Zygarde, Tyranitar and Celes with my scarfer :thinking:
If they switch out of their boosted sweeper to one of these, Nihilego has done its job. Dugtrio and Magnezone are the only revenge killers that guarantee no switch on the stuff they want to revenge.

Also: 252 SpA Nihilego Thunder vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 170-200 (42.7 - 50.2%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery,,,,,,, Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zygarde: 272-320 (76.1 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Neither are particularly reliable switch ins to Nihilego.

TTar is an issue for it, yes.

scarf Nihilego isn't realistically revenge killing anything. Its main targets, like CharY, Pinsir, Volcarona, are all accompanied (usually) by heavy counterplay such a Dugtrio, Magnezone, and Charti;
And Nihilego's team can carry counterplay to these in turn. It is not 1v6ing every CharY/Volc team it comes across, nor should it be. For example, a big deal has been made of its inability to target steels. If you wish, you can utilize Magnezone or Dugtrio to alleviate that weakness. As you say, Nihilego invites in most steels. Both of these mons quite like that.

It revenge kills quite a bit. I went over exactly what in my other post.

Metagross was banned which, funnily enough, left it in a worse position in the meta. Magearna and Celes rising makes it an underwhelming pick as a pokemon.
Celesteela isn't quite a reliable switch in, and I'll address Magearna later.

Since Mag is even more of a thing which forces you to run HP Fire, you're now countered by Zygarde and Garchomp. The former being broken, and the latter being a formidable breaker.
No, it doesn't. Nihilego has very little desire to revenge kill Magearna, and it's not like HP Fire does all that much to it anyway. It's still going to run HP Ice for the meta 4x weak trio.

Tyranitar is rising and giving free switches to any of these pokemon are huge headaches to deal with.
TTar rising also helps it, as I pointed out in my last post. Moreover, banded 40 BP pursuit only 2HKOs, which means if BandTar switches into a power gem and hazards (SR and 1 spike), Nihilego beats it (assuming pursuit which is mostly a safe assumption). I realize this is a pretty specific situation, but it's worthwhile to point out that its situation against BandTar isn't completely hopeless as soon as it switches in. But yeah, Tyranitar rising is definitely a problem for it and a viable reason for a drop.

It doesn't even beat volc anymore since Charti is either it's best set or really close to it.
I still see tons of Psychium/Firium Z sets, and Nihilego 100% does beat those. Even Charti Volc still takes +50% at +1, which leaves it open to all good priority - AshNinja (reliable even after it gets to +2), Mega Pinsir, Mega Mawile, BandGarde, and Medicham (This one is iffy; both power gem and fake out need decently high rolls to kill).

ok the whole post was kind of wack imo
I'd like to point out, once again, that Vertex used several very poor (by definition) arguments in his post. Strawmans and "if you predict right" do not an argument make. That does not mean his viewpoint is wrong, it just means he did a poor job of explaining it. You can't have it both ways.

That's like saying Lando being more common doesn't stop Exca from doing what it wants.
It's not comparable. Excadrill wants to do a few things. The first is spin, and if it can't beat Lando-T—THE rocks setter—it can't keep rocks off the field. The second is sweep/break. If it can't get through the most common mon in the tier, it can't sweep/break. Nihilego is a revenge killer, not a breaker or a sweeper. So long as it can reliably deal with the set up sweepers it wants to, it doesn't really care about getting walled by some other mon. If the sweeper switches out and loses its boosts, Nihilego has done its job. If the sweeper dies and Magearna then forces it out, Nihilego has done its job.

Personal opinion on Nihilego's viability:

I think Nihilego is just as viable a revenge killer as Terrak is, currently. Terrak can hit steels, sure, but Nihilego can hit Fairies. Hitting on the special side is pretty important as well, since - bar Volc - many if not most set up sweepers have better Def than SpD.

The worst recent meta trend imo for Nihilego has been Charti, but that became relevant at least a month ago iirc. Tyranitar is a mixed bag for it (sandstorm turns it into an actual SpD tank nearly rivaling Goodra), Celesteela doesn't do as well as people seem to think against it, and I've gone over Magearna. If it drops, I think it should be because it was overranked in the first place, not because it just suddenly became worthy of one. And like I said before, I think it's on a level with Terrak in terms of scarf revenging. If that means they're both dropped, I think it's reasonable.
 
With all do respect, there is no way in hell that Nihilego should stay in B+, unless you're going to rise Terrakion, because no they are not the same in terms of viability. Terrakion actually breaks past Pokemon rising in usage in Charti Volc, Tyranitar, and to a lesser extent Magnezone while not inviting in almost every Steel-type in the tier. You can go ahead and argue that Magnezone and Dugtrio can circumvent Nihilego's Steel weakness, but with Terrakion you don't have to restrain teambuilding like that to guarantee that you aren't destroyed by steels. And if you're arguing that Nihilego has a better niche in being able to hit fairies, Terrakion can 2HKO a majority of the tier's fairies on the switch while Nihilego can't do that with the majority of steel types. Overall, Terrakion is just a better pick than Nihilego right now since it can hold its own against a lot of Pokemon that Nihilego just can't beat without trapper support (it's also much harder to switch into since nothing takes too kindly to Rock/Fighting/Ground coverage).

And since you seem to like cherry picking other people's posts a whole lot, I thought I'd go ahead and go over some things I didn't like about your input:

If they switch out of their boosted sweeper to one of these, Nihilego has done its job. Dugtrio and Magnezone are the only revenge killers that guarantee no switch on the stuff they want to revenge.

Also: 252 SpA Nihilego Thunder vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 170-200 (42.7 - 50.2%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery,,,,,,, Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zygarde: 272-320 (76.1 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Neither are particularly reliable switch ins to Nihilego.
Celesteela will literally always beat Nihilego with its specially defensive set. Thunder has super shaky accuracy, and if Celesteela simply just uses Protect, which it will always run, it can avoid the 2HKO and OHKO back with Heavy Slam.


Tyranitar is a mixed bag for it
This is not true. Pursuit isn't a safe assumption to make since literally any other attack from Tyranitar will OHKO Nihilego.

Celesteela doesn't do as well as people seem to think against it, and I've gone over Magearna
Like I said before, all Celesteela has to do is protect and it can kill you with Heavy Slam and survive Thunder - assuming it even hits - the next turn. Thunder isn't even as preferable an option as Thunderbolt, which can't 2HKO, since most targets of Thunder, like Manaphy, Tapu Fini, and Mantine have decreased in viability since the beginning of the meta, which is even further proof as to why Celesteela does in fact beat Nihilego. As far as your Magearna argument goes, it's true that Nihilego won't try revenge killing it, but Magearna still forces Nihilego out, which is a huge waste of momentum for your team unless you have a Dugtrio, which isn't going to try switching in anyway.

Overall, Nihilego is just not as good as it used to be and is a little outperformed by Terrakion in its role as a Rock type revenger due to Terrakion's ability to take on more threats with less support. There haven't been any arguments to convince me otherwise so far, and I strongly believe that unless Terrakion rises to A-, Nihilego deserves a drop down to B.
 
how you gonna say prediction arguments are shit when you literally just used it in the FIRST RESPONSE of your post. like ofc nihilego can beat celesteela "if you predict right." so apparently you can use prediction in yo arguments and others can't....lol

there's a reason why we haven't seen nihilego do shit from spl week 2. maybe if you opened your eyes and looked in a bigger scope, you wouldn't be making these ridiculous explanations.

what even is the rest of your argument, acting like tyranitar + nihilego is a good core when it really isn't cuz of their shitty all-around synergy....and what strawman did i make man? my post was talking about nihilego not being a top 3 scarf user and how you act like there is limited counter play to nihilego when there is a ton in reality. there was no strawman but i am expecting you to nitpick the smallest portion of my post like you did here:
Solid argument.
ah yes, when you literally just explain why nihilego is overrated, but my man nitpicks the tiniest point which i already explained with 2 paragraphs. and why? likes. honestly pathetic.

and speaking of the nitpicking, stop the cherry picking in your argument. you've done this for the past 20 posts or whatever in this thread and its a terrible way to prove anything...

L
 
Last edited:

Sueshidragon

Banned deucer.
Personal opinion on Nihilego's viability:

I think Nihilego is just as viable a revenge killer as Terrak is, currently. Terrak can hit steels, sure, but Nihilego can hit Fairies. Hitting on the special side is pretty important as well, since - bar Volc - many if not most set up sweepers have better Def than SpD.

The worst recent meta trend imo for Nihilego has been Charti, but that became relevant at least a month ago iirc. Tyranitar is a mixed bag for it (sandstorm turns it into an actual SpD tank nearly rivaling Goodra), Celesteela doesn't do as well as people seem to think against it, and I've gone over Magearna. If it drops, I think it should be because it was overranked in the first place, not because it just suddenly became worthy of one. And like I said before, I think it's on a level with Terrak in terms of scarf revenging. If that means they're both dropped, I think it's reasonable.
Okay, here's where this drops off. Terrakion is in NO WAY inferior to Nihilego. Poison STAB is awful this generation, due to the abundance of Psychics and Steels. Terrakion almost completely outclasses this thing, with amazing STABs, a more workable Speed, and better coverage in Earthquake and Iron Head. Either Terrakion rises or Nihilego drops. Celesteela is a blanket check to this thing, as not running Specs Thunder, Heavy Slam deals the kill to Nihilego. Magearna beats it too, not a single Nihilego variant beats that thing. Almost any argument that Nihilego is as good as Terrakion is completely null, as it's just a much better Pokemon overall.
 
Okay, here's where this drops off. Terrakion is in NO WAY inferior to Nihilego. Poison STAB is awful this generation, due to the abundance of Psychics and Steels. Terrakion almost completely outclasses this thing, with amazing STABs, a more workable Speed, and better coverage in Earthquake and Iron Head. Either Terrakion rises or Nihilego drops. Celesteela is a blanket check to this thing, as not running Specs Thunder, Heavy Slam deals the kill to Nihilego. Magearna beats it too, not a single Nihilego variant beats that thing. Almost any argument that Nihilego is as good as Terrakion is completely null, as it's just a much better Pokemon overall.
This isn't necessarily correct because nihilego brings a lot of things to the table terrakion does not. For one, it can switch into a lot of special threats like Charizard Y and Zapdos, which both are popular at the moment. It can switch into tapu lele locked into non psychic move, and pretty much every lele set has been seeing increased usage. The argument here is that Terrakion cannot switch into so many of the common threats in the meta that nihilego can. Nihilego gives a team so much more defensive utility than terrakion does. Two, it is a great revenge killer for all of the Tapu Pokemon which Terrak is not (only one it can OHKO is Koko with Eq). Because of the prominence of these pokemon saying Posion is awful attack typing just isn't true. Third, Nihilego acts as a much better late game cleaner with beast boost.

I think both pokemon have a pretty similar impact on the current metagame and the rankings correctly reflect that.
 
This isn't necessarily correct because nihilego brings a lot of things to the table terrakion does not. For one, it can switch into a lot of special threats like Charizard Y and Zapdos, which both are popular at the moment. It can switch into tapu lele locked into non psychic move, and pretty much every lele set has been seeing increased usage. The argument here is that Terrakion cannot switch into so many of the common threats in the meta that nihilego can. Nihilego gives a team so much more defensive utility than terrakion does. Two, it is a great revenge killer for all of the Tapu Pokemon which Terrak is not (only one it can OHKO is Koko with Eq). Because of the prominence of these pokemon saying Posion is awful attack typing just isn't true. Third, Nihilego acts as a much better late game cleaner with beast boost.
This is just flat out not true, and you've completely missed the point. No one is saying that Terrakion completely outclasses Nihilego, it's just that it's a much better pick than it in general. Saying that "Nihilego gives a team so much more defensive utility than terrakion does" is ridiculously overselling it. Nihilego has a crippling 4x Ground weakness and pretty mediocre bulk. The ability to switch in on Zard Y is about the only thing it has going, Tapu Lele rarely locks itself into a non-Psychic-type move. There's a reason why neither Nihilego nor Terrakion are used for their defensive capabilities, their niche with a Choice Scarf lies in their good Speed tier and ability to revenge kill things, and that's a role that Terrakion arguably performs a lot better. Sure, Terrakion can't just come in and OHKO every one of the Tapus, but if it does come in it at least isn't completely walled by them, as every one takes a ton from Stone Edge. When Nihilego comes in to revenge something you can just go into your bulky ground or steel and force it out, which is basically a risk-free play. Yeah you've got HP Ice/HP Fire but either way you're gonna be hard walled by a bunch of stuff because Poison/Rock is a shit offensive typing. "Nihilego acts as a much better late game cleaner with beast boost" no lol. Every single one of Nihilego's moves is terrible to lock yourself into. Realistically you're not going to be achieving a late-game clean unless the opposing team has been weakened to the point where any scarfer will finish the job.
 
This is just flat out not true, and you've completely missed the point. No one is saying that Terrakion completely outclasses Nihilego, it's just that it's a much better pick than it in general. Saying that "Nihilego gives a team so much more defensive utility than terrakion does" is ridiculously overselling it. Nihilego has a crippling 4x Ground weakness and pretty mediocre bulk. The ability to switch in on Zard Y is about the only thing it has going, Tapu Lele rarely locks itself into a non-Psychic-type move. There's a reason why neither Nihilego nor Terrakion are used for their defensive capabilities, their niche with a Choice Scarf lies in their good Speed tier and ability to revenge kill things, and that's a role that Terrakion arguably performs a lot better. Sure, Terrakion can't just come in and OHKO every one of the Tapus, but if it does come in it at least isn't completely walled by them, as every one takes a ton from Stone Edge. When Nihilego comes in to revenge something you can just go into your bulky ground or steel and force it out, which is basically a risk-free play. Yeah you've got HP Ice/HP Fire but either way you're gonna be hard walled by a bunch of stuff because Poison/Rock is a shit offensive typing. "Nihilego acts as a much better late game cleaner with beast boost" no lol. Every single one of Nihilego's moves is terrible to lock yourself into. Realistically you're not going to be achieving a late-game clean unless the opposing team has been weakened to the point where any scarfer will finish the job.
Nihilego has fantastic special bulk so idk what you are really talking about mediocre bulk? 110 HP and 130 spdef is ridiculously good even uninvested. And yes someone did say terrakion outclasses nihlego which is what prompted my reply in the first place. I am not saying Nihilego is an amazing mon but it definitely helps check and revenge things that terrakion cannot which is why the comparison between the two makes no sense to me in the first place. Just because they are two common scarfers doesn't mean they do the same thing which is what I feel like a lot of people in this discussion are arguing.

The late game cleaning with power gem is not nearly as hard as you make it sound either, but regardless that point isn't as relevant as the rest of my post so feel free to disagree with that.
 
--- S Rank - Agree

Versitalty / Unpredictability
Zygarde is one of the most versatile if not the most versatile Pokemon in the tier. Zygarde is capable of using 4 amazing and metagame defining sets in Sub Coil, Double Dance, Dragon Dance, and Choice Band. All of these sets can fulfill unique roles suiting very different teams. It can also break past pretty much each and every one of its checks and counters with the differences of its sets. Dragonium Z beats fatter Pokemon like Tangrowth and Landorus-T, Groundium Z breaks Ferrothorn, Scizor-Mega, and Magic Guard Clefable, and Choice Band Iron Tail breaks Tapu Bulu, and Clefable. The Dragon Dance set can run two Z Crystals in Groundium Z and Dragonium Z which are very different and hit very different Pokemon and the Sub Coil set can run Toxic or Extreme Speed with two different sets which also adds to the the versitality of Zygarde. Having all of these sets also makes Zygarde unpredictable which makes it hard for the opponent to switch into the correct Pokemon, if they have that.
Splashability
Zygarde is the second most splashable Pokemon in the tier. With priority provided by Extreme Speed, the resistance to Stealth Rock, the Defensive Utility with a lot of offensive presence, the checking of Pokemon like Volcarona and Mega Charizard-Y, the Wallbreaking utility with Choice Band, the dreadful win condition with Dragon Dance, the way to lure in Tangrowth with Devastating Drake or forcing of Tangrowth in for wallbreakers like Mega Mawile, Mega Medicham, Mega Charizard-Y, Mega Pinsir, Mega Heracross, Mega CharizardX, and Tornadus-T with all its other sets, the volt immunity,and the amazing Sticky Web abuser with Dual Dance is something that many teams really like. In addition, Zygarde fits on many common playstyles extremely often namely Balance, Bulky Offense, Sticky Web, Offense, and Hyper Offense. It can also fit on Semi-Stall teams.
Consistency
Zygarde is extremely consistent and regardless of which set you use, it rarely does little damage. Many times its job is to consistently bring in Tangrowth to either Toxic it or bring in the many Pokemon that take advantage of Tangrowth. It's three best sets in Dragonium Z DD, Sub Coil Toxic, and Choice Band have a way of prsssuring all of its checks even though it doesn't outright beat them necessarily. Against many more offensively biased teams, the offensive Zygarde sets can at minimum land some Extreme Speed damage, while Sub Coil Toxic can live a few hits, check many Pokemon, and deal huge damage. This means that Zygarde is almost never dead weight, which really helps it because that is a justification of a Pokemon going or not going to S rank.
Metagame Trends
Zygarde is combined with numerous Metagame Trends that back it up. It deserved the rise a long time ago, but after the Mega Metagross ban, it definetly deserves one. The Mega Metagross ban helped many offensive teams, which Zygarde fits on, removed a Pokemon that could revenge kill it when it's unboosted, helped Sticky Webs, and took out a reason for running Rocky Helmet Tangrowth, and Rocky Helmet Landorus-T(Which are still good, but not as good). Further, the raise in Z Crystals on Dragon Dance helped in break past Tangrowth, the rise of Sticky Webs (dates quite a while ago) which lifts up Dual Dance Zygarde. In addition, with Pokemon like Tyranitar being preferred over reliable checks to Zygarde like Mamoswine quite recently helps it.​

Tl;dr The Versitality, Splashability, Consistency, and Metagame Trends allow Zygarde to be as good if not better than Landorus-T, justifying it being raised to S.
 
This isn't necessarily correct because nihilego brings a lot of things to the table terrakion does not. For one, it can switch into a lot of special threats like Charizard Y and Zapdos, which both are popular at the moment. It can switch into tapu lele locked into non psychic move, and pretty much every lele set has been seeing increased usage. The argument here is that Terrakion cannot switch into so many of the common threats in the meta that nihilego can. Nihilego gives a team so much more defensive utility than terrakion does. Two, it is a great revenge killer for all of the Tapu Pokemon which Terrak is not (only one it can OHKO is Koko with Eq). Because of the prominence of these pokemon saying Posion is awful attack typing just isn't true. Third, Nihilego acts as a much better late game cleaner with beast boost.

I think both pokemon have a pretty similar impact on the current metagame and the rankings correctly reflect that.
Terrakion and Nihilego don't have to do the same thing for one to be better than the other. In my opinion Nihilego has really fallen off, and yes, I of all people am saying this. If you build around it, sure, it can work because it still brings what you mentioned to the table. But...dude, look at the positives you listed and tell me if they actually mean anything. It can switch into very specific mons, but it invites even more dangerous threats in for free. It's also not supposed to switch into attacks consistently since it has no recovery, and running a Scarf pokemon as your only defensive answer to anything is asking for a hard double to fuck you over. Defensive utility is a bonus for a Scarf user, but if the actual offensive capabilities differ significantly then we might as well overlook it. Nihilego is so easy to switch into in the early and mid game that you need both great play and a great team to make it work. In contrast, Terrakion's neutral coverage and high base power STABs allow it to be more self sufficient, so you don't have to build around it to save it from being useless; it can perform a role independent of the rest of its team.
As for your point about the Tapus, Terrakion also 2HKOs them, and considering Scarf Pokemon are supposed to clean and/or revenge kill I don't see how this "advantage" translates to anything meaningful in practice. If the Tapus are still at high enough health to tank Terrakion but not Nihilego, then chances are something that beats Nihilego is also pretty healthy. Similarly, your claim that Poison isn't an awful offensive type kind of falls apart when you get into a game and realize you can't kill a single Steel in the meta with your terrible STAB combo and minimal coverage. (I'm of the opinion that Nihilego can rise back up in the rankings if it gets some new attacks to play with in the next game, but that's another discussion entirely.) Beast Boost is good, we get it, but you actually need to pick up a kill to get it going, and there's not that many defensive mons you could snowball off of in this meta. Even Tangrowth, the most common bulky pivot that you can hit super effectively, tanks your Sludge Wave and OHKOs you with EQ. Celesteela can avoid the 2HKO from Thunder and just Heavy Slams you to death. Also by the time you're ready to clean Beast Boost rarely matters, if ever. Both Terrakion and Nihilego are strong enough that Beast Boost won't make the difference when sweeping a heavily weakened team. There aren't many instances where I save my Nihilego and feel like, wow, Terrakion definitely couldn't have killed those mons.

As I mentioned before, Nihilego is a few minor buffs away from being decent again, but currently it would never be my first choice for a Scarf user. I would even say that if you feel that your team really needs a Nihilego for some reason, you should probably look at the rest of your team first.

Drop to B.
 

Sueshidragon

Banned deucer.
This is just flat out not true, and you've completely missed the point. No one is saying that Terrakion completely outclasses Nihilego, it's just that it's a much better pick than it in general. Saying that "Nihilego gives a team so much more defensive utility than terrakion does" is ridiculously overselling it. Nihilego has a crippling 4x Ground weakness and pretty mediocre bulk. The ability to switch in on Zard Y is about the only thing it has going, Tapu Lele rarely locks itself into a non-Psychic-type move. There's a reason why neither Nihilego nor Terrakion are used for their defensive capabilities, their niche with a Choice Scarf lies in their good Speed tier and ability to revenge kill things, and that's a role that Terrakion arguably performs a lot better. Sure, Terrakion can't just come in and OHKO every one of the Tapus, but if it does come in it at least isn't completely walled by them, as every one takes a ton from Stone Edge. When Nihilego comes in to revenge something you can just go into your bulky ground or steel and force it out, which is basically a risk-free play. Yeah you've got HP Ice/HP Fire but either way you're gonna be hard walled by a bunch of stuff because Poison/Rock is a shit offensive typing. "Nihilego acts as a much better late game cleaner with beast boost" no lol. Every single one of Nihilego's moves is terrible to lock yourself into. Realistically you're not going to be achieving a late-game clean unless the opposing team has been weakened to the point where any scarfer will finish the job.
*for the record, I said it does not COMPLETELY outclass it, just almost so. Nihi isn't as solid a pick as Terrakion, and yeah, you won't be using either for their defensive utility. It's also worth noting that Terrakion also makes for an amazing Knock Off switch in thanks to Justified, a point in it's favor that it not only eats Knock, but turns it against the enemy, something nobody else in OU can boast of, making its Z-move sets the ultimate Knock Off counter. Nihilego, on the other hand, fears Knock off greatly due to it's crap PhysDef. Losing its scarf makes it vulnerable to the omnipresent Garchomp, and Terrakion boasts the speed to circumvent that. It's also another heavily worth noting point that Nihilego has to pick its HP type, and get walled by whatever it doesn't pick leaves it walled by. To summarize, this thing is by no means as good as Terrakion, but can be good in its own right.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Wob
*for the record, I said it does not COMPLETELY outclass it, just almost so. Nihi isn't as solid a pick as Terrakion, and yeah, you won't be using either for their defensive utility. It's also worth noting that Terrakion also makes for an amazing Knock Off switch in thanks to Justified, a point in it's favor that it not only eats Knock, but turns it against the enemy, something nobody else in OU can boast of, making its Z-move sets the ultimate Knock Off counter. Nihilego, on the other hand, fears Knock off greatly due to it's crap PhysDef. Losing its scarf makes it vulnerable to the omnipresent Garchomp, and Terrakion boasts the speed to circumvent that. It's also another heavily worth noting point that Nihilego has to pick its HP type, and get walled by whatever it doesn't pick leaves it walled by. To summarize, this thing is by no means as good as Terrakion, but can be good in its own right.
I mean, it's a good knock off switch in if you're running z move, since scarf terrak tends to be the primary speed control (read: volc check) for any team it's used on so you can't afford to lose its item. Also, all of the typical knock off users (tang / sab / bish / mawile / weavile) can destroy it with their other moves, so this point is kind of weak imo. also nihilego outspeeds chomp so idk if you've ever used the mon or are just a living echo chamber
 

Sueshidragon

Banned deucer.
I mean, it's a good knock off switch in if you're running z move, since scarf terrak tends to be the primary speed control (read: volc check) for any team it's used on so you can't afford to lose its item. Also, all of the typical knock off users (tang / sab / bish / mawile / weavile) can destroy it with their other moves, so this point is kind of weak imo. also nihilego outspeeds chomp so idk if you've ever used the mon or are just a living echo chamber
I'm referring to ScarfChomp, and none of the above listed like eating Terrakion's boosted attacks. Probs should have specified that a little better than I did. I'm aware ScarfChomp isn't used as much anymore, but it's still worth noting. (I don't know why, but I always think Volcanion when someone says Volc. Perhaps it's Gen 6 me talking.)
 

Hilomilo

High-low My-low
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
Weavile up to B+ - I think a lot of people have forgotten about Weavile lately, which makes sense considering the metagame was once very much against it. Pheromosa and Mega Metagross were both really difficult Pokemon for it to hold its own against, and the presence of Choice Scarf Tapu Lele was also really troublesome given that a Pokemon that it'd normally 1v1 with hazard support outsped and OHKOed it. However, Weavile's very recently been starting to respond quite nicely to a lot of metagame trends, which is what compels me to believe that it's more consistent as a physical Ice-type in this current meta than Mamoswine or Kyurem-B. One thing Weavile really appreciates is the huge influx of bulky Psychic-type usage and viability. Mew, Jirachi, Reuniclus, and Slowbro have all been finding places on more teams lately, which is extremely convenient given how easily Weavile can pressure and invalidate all of these Pokemon. Latios has also been steadily rising in both viability and usage, which gives offensive teams more of a reason to bring Weavile than earlier on in the meta. The presence of Ground-types like Landorus-T, Zygarde, Garchomp, and Dugtrio also really helps Weavile due to its ability to apply heavy pressure to all of the aforementioned mons with Ice-type priority, which in the case of Garchomp or Landorus-T, can put an opponents attempt at a sweep to a full stop, which is crucial considering how hard those two mons are to stop once they've set up. The increased viability of hazard stacking in this meta is also quite helpful, as it allows Weavile to secure KOs on things like Tapu Lele, which now allows it to forego using Poison Jab so it can use Low Kick to hit the increasingly prevalent Tyranitar. Furthermore, a lot of things that once really troubled Weavile, like Buzzwole, Choice Scarf Tapu Lele, Mega Scizor, Mega Venusaur, and Choice Scarf Nihilego have fallen off since the time where it dropped to B. Now, I'm aware that there are plenty of arguments against a potential rise, yet most stem from the idea that Weavile's checks in the metagame are plentiful and are used a lot. Keldeo, Tapu Fini, Terrakion, Celesteela, and Magearna are all fairly common threats seen on teams that Weavile can struggle to break past. However, none of these threats particularly appreciate switching in due to the threat of Knock Off. Terrakion may appreciate the attack boost it'll get thanks to Justified, but its revenge killing capabilities will be compromised due to the loss of Choice Scarf, while the same is said for Keldeo. Tapu Fini and Celesteela will hate the removal of their Leftovers due to their lack of reliable recovery, while Magearna won't appreciate losing the Assault Vest that it common seems to wield in this current metagame. There are plenty of other Pokemon that check Weavile that fit this criteria, which among all these other things, is what compels me to believe that it deserves a rise.

It's late and my thoughts are sort of jumbled, but I overall think that the increase of bulky Psychic types and Latios, the presence of Ground-types that Weavile can keep in check, the decreased viability and usage of a lot of Pokemon and sets that were once seen everywhere that troubled Weavile, the rise of hazard stacking, and the fact that no Weavile check actually enjoys coming in on Knock Off whatsoever is enough for me to believe that currently, Weavile is more consistently useful in the current metagame than the likes of Mamoswine, Kyurem-B, Pelipper, Kingdra, and more and is more on par with Pokemon like Hoopa, Bisharp, and Gyarados. Thanks for reading! Let me know what you guys think. (sorry if this is kind of a mess, it's late at night and I'm not sure that I have time for a while to post in the next few days)
 
Last edited:
Totally agree with Weavile moving up. Also MZor isnt used as much because of Metagross being gone and Mew is kinda everywhere. I think Darkspam could be interesting again maybe with Specs Gren+Weavile.

"Let me know what you guys think."
Great post
 
Weavile up to B+ - I think a lot of people have forgotten about Weavile lately, which makes sense considering the metagame was once very much against it. Pheromosa and Mega Metagross were both really difficult Pokemon for it to hold its own against, and the presence of Choice Scarf Tapu Lele was also really troublesome given that a Pokemon that it'd normally 1v1 with hazard support outsped and OHKOed it. However, Weavile's very recently been starting to respond quite nicely to a lot of metagame trends, which is what compels me to believe that it's more consistent as a physical Ice-type in this current meta than Mamoswine or Kyurem-B. One thing Weavile really appreciates is the huge influx of bulky Psychic-type usage and viability. Mew, Jirachi, Reuniclus, and Slowbro have all been finding places on more teams lately, which is extremely convenient given how easily Weavile can pressure and invalidate all of these Pokemon. Latios has also been steadily rising in both viability and usage, which gives offensive teams more of a reason to bring Weavile than earlier on in the meta. The presence of Ground-types like Landorus-T, Zygarde, Garchomp, and Dugtrio also really helps Weavile due to its ability to apply heavy pressure to all of the aforementioned mons with Ice-type priority, which in the case of Garchomp or Landorus-T, can put an opponents attempt at a sweep to a full stop, which is crucial considering how hard those two mons are to stop once they've set up. The increased viability of hazard stacking in this meta is also quite helpful, as it allows Weavile to secure KOs on things like Tapu Lele, which now allows it to forego using Poison Jab so it can use Low Kick to hit the increasingly prevalent Tyranitar. Furthermore, a lot of things that once really troubled Weavile, like Buzzwole, Choice Scarf Tapu Lele, Mega Scizor, Mega Venusaur, and Choice Scarf Nihilego have fallen off since the time where it dropped to B. Now, I'm aware that there are plenty of arguments against a potential rise, yet most stem from the idea that Weavile's checks in the metagame are plentiful and are used a lot. Keldeo, Tapu Fini, Terrakion, Celesteela, and Magearna are all fairly common threats seen on teams that Weavile can struggle to break past. However, none of these threats particularly appreciate switching in due to the threat of Knock Off. Terrakion may appreciate the attack boost it'll get thanks to Justified, but its revenge killing capabilities will be compromised due to the loss of Choice Scarf, while the same is said for Keldeo. Tapu Fini and Celesteela will hate the removal of their Leftovers due to their lack of reliable recovery, while Magearna won't appreciate losing the Assault Vest that it common seems to wield in this current metagame. There are plenty of other Pokemon that check Weavile that fit this criteria, which among all these other things, is what compels me to believe that it deserves a rise.

It's late and my thoughts are sort of jumbled, but I overall think that the increase of bulky Psychic types and Latios, the presence of Ground-types that Weavile can keep in check, the decreased viability and usage of a lot of Pokemon and sets that were once seen everywhere that troubled Weavile, the rise of hazard stacking, and the fact that no Weavile check actually enjoys coming in on Knock Off whatsoever is enough for me to believe that currently, Weavile is more consistently useful in the current metagame than the likes of Mamoswine, Kyurem-B, Pelipper, Kingdra, and more and is more on par with Pokemon like Latios, Tyranitar, Skarmory, and Mega Alakazam. Thanks for reading! Let me know what you guys think. (sorry if this is kind of a mess, it's late at night and I'm not sure that I have time for a while to post in the next few days)
I don't understand why nobody's brought this up before. I really don't.

Weavile is an amazing mon that I used in all my gen 6 teams. It's stab combination was amazing last gen. While I understand there are more fairy mons than ever, as himilo said, magearna don't appreciate losing it's av, tapu lele takes a chunk from Knock off and fini's weak to pj.
Defo agree
 

Sueshidragon

Banned deucer.
Weavile up to B+ - I think a lot of people have forgotten about Weavile lately, which makes sense considering the metagame was once very much against it. Pheromosa and Mega Metagross were both really difficult Pokemon for it to hold its own against, and the presence of Choice Scarf Tapu Lele was also really troublesome given that a Pokemon that it'd normally 1v1 with hazard support outsped and OHKOed it. However, Weavile's very recently been starting to respond quite nicely to a lot of metagame trends, which is what compels me to believe that it's more consistent as a physical Ice-type in this current meta than Mamoswine or Kyurem-B. One thing Weavile really appreciates is the huge influx of bulky Psychic-type usage and viability. Mew, Jirachi, Reuniclus, and Slowbro have all been finding places on more teams lately, which is extremely convenient given how easily Weavile can pressure and invalidate all of these Pokemon. Latios has also been steadily rising in both viability and usage, which gives offensive teams more of a reason to bring Weavile than earlier on in the meta. The presence of Ground-types like Landorus-T, Zygarde, Garchomp, and Dugtrio also really helps Weavile due to its ability to apply heavy pressure to all of the aforementioned mons with Ice-type priority, which in the case of Garchomp or Landorus-T, can put an opponents attempt at a sweep to a full stop, which is crucial considering how hard those two mons are to stop once they've set up. The increased viability of hazard stacking in this meta is also quite helpful, as it allows Weavile to secure KOs on things like Tapu Lele, which now allows it to forego using Poison Jab so it can use Low Kick to hit the increasingly prevalent Tyranitar. Furthermore, a lot of things that once really troubled Weavile, like Buzzwole, Choice Scarf Tapu Lele, Mega Scizor, Mega Venusaur, and Choice Scarf Nihilego have fallen off since the time where it dropped to B. Now, I'm aware that there are plenty of arguments against a potential rise, yet most stem from the idea that Weavile's checks in the metagame are plentiful and are used a lot. Keldeo, Tapu Fini, Terrakion, Celesteela, and Magearna are all fairly common threats seen on teams that Weavile can struggle to break past. However, none of these threats particularly appreciate switching in due to the threat of Knock Off. Terrakion may appreciate the attack boost it'll get thanks to Justified, but its revenge killing capabilities will be compromised due to the loss of Choice Scarf, while the same is said for Keldeo. Tapu Fini and Celesteela will hate the removal of their Leftovers due to their lack of reliable recovery, while Magearna won't appreciate losing the Assault Vest that it common seems to wield in this current metagame. There are plenty of other Pokemon that check Weavile that fit this criteria, which among all these other things, is what compels me to believe that it deserves a rise.

It's late and my thoughts are sort of jumbled, but I overall think that the increase of bulky Psychic types and Latios, the presence of Ground-types that Weavile can keep in check, the decreased viability and usage of a lot of Pokemon and sets that were once seen everywhere that troubled Weavile, the rise of hazard stacking, and the fact that no Weavile check actually enjoys coming in on Knock Off whatsoever is enough for me to believe that currently, Weavile is more consistently useful in the current metagame than the likes of Mamoswine, Kyurem-B, Pelipper, Kingdra, and more and is more on par with Pokemon like Latios, Tyranitar, Skarmory, and Mega Alakazam. Thanks for reading! Let me know what you guys think. (sorry if this is kind of a mess, it's late at night and I'm not sure that I have time for a while to post in the next few days)
I'm ashamed I didn't think of this sooner. Weavile is an amazing Mon, capable of putting some serious pressure on the Big Four (personal term for Landorus, Garchomp, Zygarde, and Salamence, 4 OU Mons 4x weak to Ice), as well as harassing a wide spectrum of item-reliant Pokemon with STAB Knock Off. Latios, Jirachi, and Mew are all coming up more and more nowadays, and their prevalence is a massive boon to Weavile's viability. Yeah, it's checks are everywhere, but Weavile counters and applies pressure to so many high tier threats that it just needs to be rewarded for doing so.
 

The Loog Noog

Banned deucer.
Mega Pinsir up to A - With the recent ban of Mega Metagross and introduction of Mega Heracross into the tier coupled with the metagame changes that have been happening lately, I believe that Mega Pinsir is arguably the best Mega in the metagame, being on par with Mega Mawile, who is currently residing in A rank. With the ban of Mega Metagross, one of the biggest threats to Sticky Web teams (the archetype that Mega Pinsir functions best on) and Mega Pinsir in general has been eliminated from the tier. Mega Metagross was such a big threat to webs because it could use Clear Body pre-mega to ignore the speed drop from Sticky Web and OHKO Mega Pinsir with Thunder Punch after regular form switches into Stealth Rock, and rocks being up vs webs is perfectly reasonable because of the complete lack of hazard control beyond Taunt/Magic Coat on Smeargle. Aside from Mega Metagross leaving the tier, its absence from the tier means that teams are utilizing Pokemon like Magearna, Mega Scizor, Celesteela, etc. to check things that Mega Metagross checked before. Mega Pinsir blows through the slower Magearna at +2 with Earthquake no problem regardless of moveset bar Shuca Berry variants. Additionally, Mega Scizor has a roll in its favor to OHKO Mega Scizor with significant defense investment after a SD boost provided that it has taken SR damage, which is more than reasonable as Mega Scizor's most useful set right now is the Defog set. Celesteela is a bit more complicated as it is usually a pretty steady Mega Pinsir check compared to the other two, but it is still a worse check than Mega Metagross as it is slower than Mega Pinsir and therefore doesn’t have to be worn down as much for Mega Pinsir to overwhelm it, not to mention the fact that Magnezone, one of Mega Pinsir’s best teammates, has a much easier time trapping Celesteela than Mega Metagross due to the speed reason that I already mentioned. In regards to the introduction of Mega Heracross, the introduction of a Pokemon 4x weak to Mega Pinsir’s STAB attacks is only helpful to Mega Pinsir because it introduces another mon for Mega Pinsir to threaten out. Lastly, I’ve noticed that Zapdos usage seems to be a bit lower than it was a week or two ago, not showing up a single time in smogon tour playoffs so far, and this is amazing for Mega Pinsir because Zapdos is one of its best answers and decreasing Zapdos usage can only be a benefit to Mega Pinsir.

Side Note: I totally agree with the Weavile rise, the rise in bulky psychic types helps it a ton and being able to wear down mons like Tapu Fini and Celesteela for teammates is hugely appreciated.

L
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Gary

Can be abrasive at times (no joke)
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
RANKING UPDATE

Rises

A- ---> A

Drops

A- ---> B+
B+ ---> B
B+ ---> C+
B- ---> C+
C ---> Unranked
C ---> Unranked
C --- Unranked
C- ---> Unranked
C- ---> Unranked
C- ---> Unranked
C- ---> Unranked
C- ---> Unranked


  • Bulu has seen more usage and a lot more success with the banning of Mega Metagross. Team building is significantly less restrictive now, which allows Bulu to fit less awkwardly on teams then it was previously. Although HO webs is still prevalent, bulkier builds are still pretty common, and Bulu's classic SD set with Grassium/Rockium tears most of these teams to shreds. Its switch-ins are limited to defensive Pokemon like Skarm, Steela, Mega Scizor, and Zapdos, most of which can lose to the appropriate coverage move or Z crystal (+2 Bloom Doom OHKOs Zapdos lol). It's also a solid Zygarde switch-in, so there's that too.
  • The Marowak drop should be pretty self-explanatory. Its viability has fallen off a bit ever since Mosa was banned, and while it's still a terrifying breaker, there are many other breakers to choose from that don't suffer from a SR weakness or a cripplingly low Speed tier. It's just a bit awkward to fit onto teams despite it being a decent stallbreaker, and feels out of place in A-.
  • I don't think I need to really explain Nihilego dropping considering it was talked about endlessly for almost 2 pages. Basically, it's walled by common Steel-types, can't reliably revenge kill Volcarona, and Specs still has trouble breaking through Steels or is walled by Zygarde if it's not running HP Ice which blows.
  • All BP related mons were unranked, minus Scoli for its okay offensive set. Mega Gyarados is ass.
  • Diggersby and Torkoal should have been removed ages ago so that's all I really have to say about that
Disscussion Points:

A ---> A-
A ---> A-
A- ---> B+
B ---> B+
B ---> B+
B ---> B+


Discussion points are back due to popular demand. Please don't fuck it up, I actually enjoy doing these.
 
Last edited:

Eclipse

Like a chimp with a machine gun
is a Contributor Alumnus
A ---> A- : Disagree

There have been some meta shifts taking place against Keldeo with the rise of Extrasensory Gren and Ash-Gren, therefore making it not as reliable of a switchin as it once was to it. Along with Charti Berry Volc seeing usage, Scarf Keld is not as consistent of a Volc answer as it usually was. Despite this, Keldeo also takes advantage of other mons rising in usage and viability, such as Weavile and Tyranitar. Given that the both of these have been seeing more usage as of late, having a semi-reliable switchin to them in Keldeo means it still is useful enough to retain its rank. Even with the rise of Esens Gren, Scarf Keld is still one of the best offensive checks to Gren; it just means that you can't just blindly switch it in anymore expectimg to get some free ass momentum. Specs Keld has also been coming back a bit as people are realizing again that its a damn solid breaker, as it can 2HKO AV Tang after Rocks; Fini, Venu, and Amoonguss are also dying a bit in usage which is fantastic for Keld. Overall, this mon has a number of great qualities that leave it as one of the more solid mons in A, so I disagree with a drop.

A- ---> B+ : Agree

Mega Hera was cool when it came in, being strong against BP, being a phenomenal breaker on BP teams themselves, while also having a great defensive typing that it can use to check the likes of Zygarde which is always a pain in the ass. However, with BP's death, that's now a style that Mega Hera can no longer perform well on or against. Standard Webs is basically the most spammed team now that BP is dead, and Hera is pressured too much given how great Pinsir is against it. Along with this, Z-Fly Lando has been making a comeback too, so I support a drop for Mega Hera.

B ---> B+ : Agree
Pursuit trapping is still lit in this meta, especially with Lele being one of the most consistent breakers in the meta. Band Weavile still has relatively 0 consistent answers, as the mons that can normally handle it, such as Keld/Celesteela can't switch in repeatedly after taking a Band Knock Off. Its offensive typing is still a pain for many teams to deal with, and given how popular Zygarde/Lando/Chomp will continue to remain, it only makes sense for Weavile to rise, so I support a rise to B+.

Not commenting on the other three; neutral towards Gengar and Mimikyu and I haven't played much with Reuni as of late to have a solid opinion.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 1)

Top