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I heavily agree with the drop of mega alakazam. Even with the recent ban of mgross, lele +zam teams are nearly extinct. Also, zam is walled by 2 of the top 5 or so mons in the meta with ease (Those being Celesteela and
Magearna, obviously). With the large amounts of priority running around like banded zygarde espeed and sucker from bisharp/ mega mawile, I don't see a reason why it should be a-. It should be b+ at best imo. Another thing I want to point out is how hard checking volcarona is for offense. Any good offense team most likely has a base 101+ scarf that can easily revenge mega zam. This mon is still decent, but NOT A- worthy.
Mega Alakazam A- -> B+(disagree): The only meta trend that really is bad for mega alaka is the rise of Magearna and celesteela, and even than if you manage to revange kill them you can snowball against the opposite team, Weavile and TTar rising actually helps it, since both are OKOed by focus miss, and they treathen bulky psychcs that annoy non CM kazam, it's one of the best late-game cleanners and super strong under psychc terrain. And the best of course Trace, this thing is so magical: protean, magnet pull, arena trap, swift swim, techinchan, beast boost, regenerator, soul-heart, intimidate, and goes on. To complete its very versatile being able to choose between hp fire, CM, taunt, daazling glean, energy ball.
Rain B+ -> A-: unsure, of course this playstyle is very common on the ladder right now, but SW is as very common and effective too, I don't thing that pelipper should be 2 subranks above Smeargle, and maybe rain stop being so dominant with the time. Speaking of unusual playstyles, why uxie isn't ranked yet? The TR team is as common as SW, and arguably as effective.
My own nomination Mega Mawile: A -> A-, this mon is a bit overrated in my opinion, when Medicham dropped to A- the argument was "the bulky psychcs are rising" but mawile have a bunch of defensive answers in lando-t, tangrowth, and mew all very common, and when you compare maw with the other 3 heavy physical mega wallbreakers(pinsir,medicham and hera) they all have better traits then maw like more spammable stab, better speed, and all the 3 can't be treathen by defensive lando-t or amoongus, and of course they are all way faster(you can say that maw is the best mega on TR) and when you put they all side by side is obvious that maw is closer to medicham and heracross than she is to pinsir, that have only two counters in skarmory and zapdos(celesteela and rotom-w take 80% from +2 CC), is fast, doesn't rely on predict, and have a better priority.
This is just a question: why mega houndoom didin't got ranked? Sure is not meta defying, but he is able to breake some cores with NP + fire/dark/poison coverage and nice speed tier, and we have megas like pidgeot(this shit have a niche?), sceptile, garchomp and beedrill ranked. Also houndoom is listed in the Role Compendium under some roles.
I'm actually like 70/30 on it and if either of the two should rise it should be Swampert (peli is good but yknow). Swampert being released gives rain a way to lure Mantine (stone edge) / Toxapex, two of the worst match ups rain has. It also has type redundancy with Kingdra allowing them to bust through or severally weaken each other checks. There's much more aggressive counterplay to Manetric / Zapdos / Tapu Koko so you don't have to result to Ferro while having rain up at the same time. (Zapdos and Manetric especially due to them destroying most rain defensive cores) Swampert also adds much needed neutral bulk to rain since it had to rely on agressive doubles; However, when that doesn't work out, it falls back on Ferro or Lando to sponge hits. Having a bulky swift swimmer, that isn't named zPoison Jab Toad, lets you play more safe while still maximizing your rain turns.
Pelican is cool and gives rain U-turn into a breaker / sweeper. Specs is actually lowkey a bigger threat than it should be STAY WOKE but A- is doing it more justice than I feel it should get.
Just a short post because I already talked with Finch about this.
Basically if Pelipper and Swampert-Mega are in B+ Kingdra should be too because virtually every rain team has Kingdra including the Pelipper + Swampert-Mega builds so logically Kingdra is equally viable because nearly every team with those two Pokemon has a Kingdra as well.
My own nomination Mega Mawile: A- -> B+, this mon is a bit overrated in my opinion, when Medicham dropped to A- the argument was "the bulky psychcs are rising" but mawile have a bunch of defensive answers in lando-t, tangrowth, and mew all very common, and when you compare maw with the other 3 heavy physical mega wallbreakers(pinsir,medicham and hera) they all have better traits then maw like more spammable stab, better speed, and all the 3 can't be treathen by defensive lando-t or amoongus, and of course they are all way faster(you can say that maw is the best mega on TR) and when you put they all side by side is obvious that maw is closer to medicham and heracross than she is to pinsir, that have only two counters in skarmory and zapdos(celesteela and rotom-w take 80% from +2 CC), is fast, doesn't rely on predict, and have a better priority.
Maw is in A right now not A-. I think A suits it. It's no easier to one shot than keldeo or tran or koko (other A mons) with the right move but shares a similarly superb defensive typing, and it offers fewer utilities and roles, but the two it does offer, it excels at (breaker, cleaner). I know AoA is the more popular set right now, but I've been using SD the whole time, and it's not at all a challenge to set one up. You force so many switches. And at +2 you have no reliable checks besides heatran and like full health defensive landot. The sucker nerf did impact some KOs she used to be able to get, but chip damage is ez and helpful, so a late game +2 maw is essentially a few coin tosses in your favorjust click sucker. Idk maw puts in work in almost every match i use it, it's so immediately threatening, and working it's bulk into something usable can let it live some impressive hits from full and proceed to remove it's 'check' and then break the opp team.
Maw's checks are pretty easy to play around, as they are mostly just the most common pivots in the meta, like the 3 listed (landot, tang, mew), and like any powerful attacker, maw can break them with chip and a good play. It fears wisp, but in my experience no one is running it besides mew and that's obvious so you just switch out. All the defensive heatran should run wisp over toxic. Play rough is fairly spammable, and maw's coverage is always a move to handle steels. And Maw's better trait is that it has an absurd immediate breaking power.
I don't know that it's more effective than medicham right now tho. Probably better than most of A-, but maybe medi just needs a rise. Also, while the meta adapted to medi with bulky psychics, it has never really adapted to maw in the same way, because maw's checks have always been the most common mons in the game, the same one's that any well-built team needs to be able to handle and remove in every single match. So nothing has really shifted for it in that sense, it's still fighting the good fight with it's effective base 255 attack, sd, and mindgames.
But B+ is an offensive underrating of this mon.
Maw is in A right now not A-. I think A suits it. It's no easier to one shot than keldeo or tran or koko (other A mons) with the right move but shares a similarly superb defensive typing, and it offers fewer utilities and roles, but the two it does offer, it excels at (breaker, cleaner). I know AoA is the more popular set right now, but I've been using SD the whole time, and it's not at all a challenge to set one up. You force so many switches. And at +2 you have no reliable checks besides heatran and like full health defensive landot. The sucker nerf did impact some KOs she used to be able to get, but chip damage is ez and helpful, so a late game +2 maw is essentially a few coin tosses in your favorjust click sucker. Idk maw puts in work in almost every match i use it, it's so immediately threatening, and working it's bulk into something usable can let it live some impressive hits from full and proceed to remove it's 'check' and then break the opp team.
Maw's checks are pretty easy to play around, as they are mostly just the most common pivots in the meta, like the 3 listed (landot, tang, mew), and like any powerful attacker, maw can break them with chip and a good play. It fears wisp, but in my experience no one is running it besides mew and that's obvious so you just switch out. All the defensive heatran should run wisp over toxic. Play rough is fairly spammable, and maw's coverage is always a move to handle steels. And Maw's better trait is that it has an absurd immediate breaking power.
I don't know that it's more effective than medicham right now tho. Probably better than most of A-, but maybe medi just needs a rise. Also, while the meta adapted to medi with bulky psychics, it has never really adapted to maw in the same way, because maw's checks have always been the most common mons in the game, the same one's that any well-built team needs to be able to handle and remove in every single match. So nothing has really shifted for it in that sense, it's still fighting the good fight with it's effective base 255 attack, sd, and mindgames.
But B+ is an offensive underrating of this mon.
Omg I have no idea how I did that I was trying to nom her to A-(like I told she was on level with medicham and heracross) I guess that just remove my entire point, sorry
Edit: I guess I mess up with the alaka nom and wrote the same thing above without notecing since I was on the phone and tired, rly sorry
Volcarona is imo a shaky A+ mon to begin with because of the support it needs. But admittedly, with the correct support Volcarona is almost unstoppable.
I want to make this post because there are things that changed for Volcarona:
a) Now Volcarona is more pressured to run Bug Buzz because of TTar. You guys let Gengar drop coz of Pursuittrappers so Volcarona should drop because it is pressured to run Bug Buzz.
b) If you decide to run Bug Buzz, you have to use Fire Blast and Giga Drain alongside it. That means you cannot use useful HP Ice, HP Ground or Z-Psychic anymore.
c) Volcarona became more of a matchup dependant pokemon. While Bug Buzz is by no means a bad move, you can still decide to not run Bug Buzz because you have a Dugtrio in the back for TTar and maybe for Pex and Heatran, too. (When does Dugtrio finally get banned, come on guys. People actually thought that Volcarona needs suspect but in reality Dugtrio needs to be banned). But Volcarona now needs to guess which moves to not run when paired with Dugtrio. This does reduce the sweeping capabilities. If an A+ mon who already needs lots of support becomes a less reliable sweeper, it needs to drop.
d) Mantine is actually pretty good because Rain is extremly common and nobody ever runs Stone Edge on MSwampert (maybe in 2 months Edge becomes a thing). You need Eq, Waterfall, Ice Punch and Stealth Rock/Low Kick/Focus Punch. More Mantines = Volcarona needs to drop.
I played around with rain a fair bit in ORAS and have been using it a lot in the past week and I definitely agree with rising these two, but I'll try not to exaggerate too much.
Swampert and Bigmouth are basically each other's yin and yang, sharing 0 weaknesses while having some nice immunities and resistances, and are able to take on each other's checks.
This has been said before, but Pelipper is a godsend for rain teams. It has reliable recovery in Roost, acts as a slow pivot with U-turn, can Defog away hazards while it's immune to (Toxic) Spikes, and has relatively decent physical bulk. I know it already had all these things before, but now it can be teamed up wit Megapert, which handles all relevant ELT types and Rock attacks that otherwise bother Pelipper with his great typing and really solid 100/110/110 bulk. (Seismitoad unfortunately just sucks, I hope we can agree on that) (Speaking of Koko: being able to spam Magnet + Terrain boosted Thunder feels like it should be forbidden...)
Swampert benefits greatly from the mega speed turn 1, essentially giving you an extra turn of rain to abuse instead of always having to tank a hit first. It has a nice set of coverage options to choose from: EQ and Ice Punch feel kinda necessary, Waterfall is the third move unless you feel like taking on PhysDef Skarm which is possible with Aqua Tail (see calc), and then it has options like Stone Edge for Gyara and Mantine, Superpower or Hammer Arm for Ferrothorn, or SR for guaranteed fast rocks. And that is pretty much all the coverage it needs. (It apparently gets outrage, but please don't.)
His biggest check is M-venu without a doubt (though it doesn't like rain for Synthesis) and RHelmet Tangrowth and Bulu also bother it to some extent, but this is why the combination of Pelipper + Swampert (PeliPert? sorry...) works so nicely: Hurricane handles all of those. I personally prefer LO Tornadus for this so I can run Scald on Pelipper, but you basically only need Pelipper and Swampert to have an incredibly decent rain core, and the 4 other slots are still free to take on what you want.
252+ Atk Swampert-Mega Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory in Rain: 153-181 (45.8 - 54.1%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
And Stall Skarmory runs Shed Shell instead of Leftovers
I know I'm mostly just listing up what they do, but was genuinely surprised to see how effective this core works. I should have some nice replays of these two in action which I hope can strenghten my case, but I'd have to go look for them, so stay tuned.
Looking through the ranks, they have a favorable or at least neutral matchup against pretty much everyting from S to B+ except Tangrowth (RSlide), Ferrothorn (Superpower isn't an OHKO), Bulu (SEdge, or terrain boosted Horn Leech), rain boosted Water Shuriken from A-gren, Gyara, Rotom-W, and then we're down to stuff like Mantine and Suicune. Individually they're B+ at most, but together they're definitely better than things in B+ like bisharp, R-wash A-Marowak or Fini, and you will (or at least should) never use the one without the other.
tl,dr: Separately, these two probably shouldn't be ranked in the A's, but they form an incredibly solid core, able to handle each others checks, and place huge amounts of pressure on the opponent during the 7 turns of rain that remain after Pelipper has been sent in. They just strengthen each other so much that a combined ranking in A- would definitely be deserved.
I don't really know how I feel about Kingdra rising. It's one of my favorite mons, but it isn't strictly "necessary" to make rain work, which Swampert and Pelipper definitely are. Though I also can't really think of a good reason not to use it. Maybe put it like a subrank below the other two, which would make it B+ if they rise or B if they don't.
It has the best speed tier of all relevant Swift Swimmers and modest Specs Hydro Pump in rain just nukes stuff, even things like Sp.Def Celesteela, which kinda makes Fini and Chansey its only true safe switch (and it still takes up to 33%). Being choice-locked is abusable though and outside of rain it loses way more viability than Swampert does for example.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela in Rain: 255-301 (64 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
If Rain is considered viable with Kingdra/Swampert/Pelipper
252 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Swampert-Mega: 304-364 (89.1 - 106.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 248 HP / 64 SpD Pelipper: 408-484 (126.3 - 149.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kingdra: 348-412 (119.5 - 141.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Alola Ninetales is currently at C-Rank.
Just curious: If a single Pokemon is very viable against a current team(Rain), should it be boosted up to C+ or isn't this enough for it to rise?
If Rain is considered viable with Kingdra/Swampert/Pelipper
252 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Swampert-Mega: 304-364 (89.1 - 106.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 248 HP / 64 SpD Pelipper: 408-484 (126.3 - 149.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Ninetales-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kingdra: 348-412 (119.5 - 141.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Alola Ninetales is currently at C-Rank.
Just curious: If a single Pokemon is very viable against a current team(Rain), should it be boosted up to C+ or isn't this enough for it to rise?
both relatively common on rain. both give 0 fucks about alolatales and threaten it w stab steel attacks. only thing alolatales has going for it is aurora veil, which it can have a hard time setting up vs a highly offensive team such as rain. peli being slower also doesn't help, as peli leads n gets rain up so tales can't use veil. don't raise it, its niche hasn't changed at all.
both relatively common on rain. both give 0 fucks about alolatales and threaten it w stab steel attacks. only thing alolatales has going for it is aurora veil, which it can have a hard time setting up vs a highly offensive team such as rain. peli being slower also doesn't help, as peli leads n gets rain up so tales can't use veil. don't raise it, its niche hasn't changed at all.
So run zone with it. Idk that it needs a rise I haven't used it in a long time, but the calcs show alolatails dealing with half of the team. It's unreasonable to expect a mon to do that much and be able to beat some of it's best counters. I just don't think that's a good reason to counter-argue a raise, cause it would only be one mon on the rain team that threatens ninetails so much and those steels should be handled by a teammate on any competent team. And ninetails doesn't have to lead against peli, it can come in to remove rain later. Once it gets in, it's gonna be clicking freeze dry and peli doesn't want to switch in because it puts the team on a 7 turn timer once it's removed.
the question is whether rain is so prominent that this niche is worth a raise. it doesn't help that there are a number of other more consistent options to deal with rain.
Here's why. I don't think Mega Alakazam needs a drop because of the rising popularity in Rain recently with the release of Mega Swampert. Maybe you haven't tried Protect on Mega Alakazam, but I have and it seems worthy of a moveslot. Now, with Mega Manectric's release, many teams have Mega Manectric as a lead, as it is a pivot machine, hitting what volt switch can't with its coverage options. Mega Alakazam is able to Mega Evolve, trace LightningRod, and absorb Manectric's attacks whole boosting its own, being able to block Mega Mane. All in all, even though I am new to OU, I believe that Mega Alakazam should stay at A-.
edit: psychic hits like a nuke after lightningrod boost
Here's why. I don't think Mega Alakazam needs a drop because of the rising popularity in Rain recently with the release of Mega Swampert. Maybe you haven't tried Protect on Mega Alakazam, but I have and it seems worthy of a moveslot. Now, with Mega Manectric's release, many teams have Mega Manectric as a lead, as it is a pivot machine, hitting what volt switch can't with its coverage options. Mega Alakazam is able to Mega Evolve, trace LightningRod, and absorb Manectric's attacks whole boosting its own, being able to block Mega Mane. All in all, even though I am new to OU, I believe that Mega Alakazam should stay at A-.
If anything, Rain would boost Mega Alakazam's popularity, since it can revenge kill any Rain sweeper thanks to Trace. Protect is absolutely useless on Mega Alakazam, since it accomplishes literally nothing. Mega Manectric has many checks beyond Mega Alakazam, and it's not as if you can switch into a Thunderbolt anyway. The existence of a new Pokemon that Mega Alakazam outspeeds does not bolster its niche...and Mega Manectric just isn't good at the moment, much less as a lead.
If anything, Rain would boost Mega Alakazam's popularity, since it can revenge kill any Rain sweeper thanks to Trace. Protect is absolutely useless on Mega Alakazam, since it accomplishes literally nothing. Mega Manectric has many checks beyond Mega Alakazam, and it's not as if you can switch into a Thunderbolt anyway. The existence of a new Pokemon that Mega Alakazam outspeeds does not bolster its niche...and Mega Manectric just isn't good at the moment, much less as a lead.
Mega Manectric really isn't all that bad. It's a much better lead than say, Tapu Koko, since it has Fire coverage too. It's a really good pivot, and while that may not be the number one thing trending in the meta right now, saying it isn't a good lead is wrong. No, it isn't the best, but it's certainly good. The fact that it can hit Ferrothorn and Scizor, two of the most common Koko switches, gives it a better niche as a pivot, coupled with the fact that it has Intimidate, which makes it a (slightly) better physical stop, provided whatever it's attacking doesn't have EQ (Or T-Arrows.) While yeah it isn't the best Mega around right now, saying is isn't good is a bit of an understatement when, with a little building, Manectric can be great.
Did I just hear someone dissing Megaman? Idk what tier youve been playing but in my experience he can be one of the more versatile megas in OU. With the meta having a very hard time dealing with entry hazards atm, volt-turn has the potential to absolutely massacre teams and manectric is basically the face of volt-turn. Its even more effective than it was back in ORAS thanks to Koko, who makes manectrics Tbolts very scary to face, and Lando-T is better than ever, meaning a core of the three heavily pressures both offense and stall (unless quag sees a rise in usage). Considering its great speed tier too (allowing it to outspeed plenty of key threats like ash-gren and Kokos) I really dont see how anyone can think Megaman is bad.
On the topic of Zam I feel a drop isnt really warranted, countering rain sweepers is really a really valuable asset for frailer teams and zam has more options for dealing with the rise of pursuit trappers compared to other pursuit-vulnerable mons thanks to its prime quality speed and strength.
Im also sorta curious about peoples opinions on Rotom-w atm. Ive started using it again recently and its really impressed me with how well it deals with some prominent threats, one of which being megapert, who has to hope for a double Superpower crit and 2 burn misses. Granted it is fodder for some other big threats but its slow volt switch and ability to invalidate lando-t give it some pretty big upsides that might push it above B+.
Sorry if this seems pretty random, but Slowking has been removed from the rankings because it fails to have any significant niche in the current metagame over its Bro counterparts that make it worth using. Carry on.
May I ask a somewhat controversial and possibly very stupid question?
Why do the rankings go from S to C when there are ten of them in total? What's the point of doing A+, A, A-, etc., instead of A, B, C down to I? I'm sure there must be a reason, and I understand the need to keep the S-ranked 'mons separate from the rabble in the rest of the alphabet, but at a glance it seems counter-intuitive to have a nine-point scale going from A to C. It's not like you need to conserve the other 25 22 letters for anything, or what?
May I ask a somewhat controversial and possibly very stupid question?
Why do the rankings go from S to C when there are ten of them in total? What's the point of doing A+, A, A-, etc., instead of A, B, C down to I? I'm sure there must be a reason, and I understand the need to keep the S-ranked 'mons separate from the rabble in the rest of the alphabet, but at a glance it seems counter-intuitive to have a nine-point scale going from A to C. It's not like you need to conserve the other 25 22 letters for anything, or what?
A-C (or A-F) is a ranking that stems from scholastic grade scales. Also shows up in a lot of video games to assign meaning to numeric scores. S rank came from japanese games a while ago, quick google search doesn't provide a more concrete origin on it
In general it's just a well established and commonly understood method of ranking
A-C (or A-F) is a ranking that stems from scholastic grade scales. Also shows up in a lot of video games to assign meaning to numeric scores. S rank came from japanese games a while ago, quick google search doesn't provide a more concrete origin on it
In general it's just a well established and commonly understood method of ranking
Yes, but in scholastic grade scales they usually only use the letters without plusses and minuses. A-F, that's six rankings. Exclusing the S rank, this thread uses nine. And still those are compressed into three letters of the alphabet. It just feels strange to read C- as the weakest grade out of ten.
Yes, but in scholastic grade scales they usually only use the letters without plusses and minuses. A-F, that's six rankings. Exclusing the S rank, this thread uses nine. And still those are compressed into three letters of the alphabet. It just feels strange to read C- as the weakest grade out of ten.
Plus/minus is still very common in school grading, though only the letter tends to show up on official transcripts. D and F are considered failing grades so they would not be used to denote viable OU Pokemon.
Plus/minus is still very common in school grading, though only the letter tends to show up on official transcripts. D and F are considered failing grades so they would not be used to denote viable OU Pokemon.
Ah, that explains it. I stand by my opinion that it's a silly system (also, what's the point of two failing grades while also skipping E?), but if it's used here because of convention elsewhere in society, and not invented here, it makes sense. Sort of like the Fahrenheit scale. If Smogon had devised a temperature scale where water freezes at 32 and boils at 212, I'd have lobbied to have it changed. But since it's adopted from elsewhere and many members are familiar with it from contextual use, it makes sense to use it.
Schools in my country use grades from 1 (fail) to 6 (top score) rather than letters. In higher education, letters are used, where A-E are passing grades and F is failing. No plusses or minuses. Hence why I'm unfamiliar with the system.
Let's move away from that nonsense and into more important and productive things, shall we?
Gliscor - B- -> Somewhere in Cs
Let's talk about a Pokemon who actually deserves to be ranked lower than a lot of Pokemon around it. Gliscor is in a very bad position. The stallbreaker set from ORAS is 100% ineffective against the majority of (good) stall builds, the Swords Dance set only has a few minor merits such as not being able to be burnt but loses in damage heavily by Landorus-T, and the Substitute + Toxic set, while annoying, faces heavy problems bypassing Skarmory, Mega Scizor, and Celesteela, and being blown back or cared least about by a lot of offensive teams. The increase of rain teams also doesn't do Gliscor a ton of favors either. Another trend, Weavile, doesn't help Gliscor.
It's very confusing how a Pokemon with such a small and arguably mediocre niche is above other stronger niche mons or even around them. Mega Aerodactyl at least proves to be a problem against offensive teams, Mega Garchomp decimates a lot of defensive teams, and Primarina has very few good switch-ins. Pokemon like Alolan Muk may be a magnet to Magearna, but it still can punish a lot of Pokemon with Knock Off and Poison Touch while being a solid Pursuit user. Mega Slowbro is another B- mon that proves to have more utility than Gliscor - though Mega Slowbro hates bulky Water-types outside of Calm Mind sets the 3 Attacks + Slack Off set proves troublesome for Zygarde and many other threats.
As for where to drop Gliscor - somewhere in the Cs tier (C+, C, or C-) should suffice. Personally, I think it should be no higher than C alongside other Pokemon like Tentacruel. I can live with C+, but if it does become I feel I would inevitably argue for a Mega Aerodactyl / Mega Garchomp / Primarina rise.
I think ditto can pass B+ or A-.
This pokemon it's the best revenge killer of the game...
Only him, he revenge kill :
Zygarde (outrage)
Magearna (flash)
Volcarona (fire)
Charizard X... (outrage)
He copy the stats and the boosts.
Volca, magea, chari are 300 hp, like ditto...
The differance its only with zyg, but with the stealth rock, outrage ohko .
The choice scarf give him a stupid advantage vs an offense.
I conceded it's very difficult to switch-into, but good play... He can destroy the balanced/defensive team.
Ditto can lure the set of the opponent. So, you cannot be surprises by a lure if you want a safe switch-in.
I recommended you ditto.
It's a very good mon.
For exemple,
Garchomp cannot revenge kill magearna timid shift gear 252+speed
Greninja and keldeo cannot revenge kill magearna... Because hydro pump dont hko
Keldeo cannot revenge kill Volca charti berry or a miss of stone edge
Nihilego cannot revenge kill magearna...
But ditto, him, he can.
Also, play magearna to check magearna xD
Heatran cannot if he has Fightium Z..
Magearna, for me, it's a S rank mon
Assault vest (252+spe def or not)
Shit gear (252 speed, timid)
Trick room
Specially defensive
A good power : fleur cannon and soul heart
Because he has a very good bulk (greninja ash choice spe hydro pump dont ohko), this is very easy to set-up shift gear/trick room and it's very difficult to revenge kill...
It's not like Gyarados or Mence, garchomp or lando scarf destroy them.
But lando scarf cannot beat magearna +1.
It's just an example.
And, magearna is the second most played mon.
It's for a reason.
You may suspect test Magearna.
For swampert and Peliper
He can pass A- without problem.
Swift swim it's really amazing
Swampert destroy landorus, ferrothorn... so Zygarde/Gyarados can heavy sweep.
Peliper give a good support (defog, scald, roost) and give a good match-up vs sticky web.
A rain vs an offense it's a very good match-up.
Tapu fini and rotom (252def) and bulky grass are only mon on the OU who can check swampert without problem.
Alakazam B+ : Undecided
Alakzam with lele it's a good moon...
Dazzling gl, hp fire, psychic, sub it's the best set for him.
But, he depeand of the psychic terrain to do heavy damage.
But, it's a good revenge killer.
And, sticky web it's a very stupid move...
You may word for a complex ban IMO
Because sticky web... You must play a lead with taunt or/and a defog/spinner.
Ban smeargle it's very usuless.
Shuckle mental herb or the electric mon exist.
There are some points that I definitely agree with you, but there are some arguments that don't exactly make sense.
For swampert and Peliper
He can pass A- without problem.
Swift swim it's really amazing
Swampert destroy landorus, ferrothorn... so Zygarde/Gyarados can heavy sweep.
Peliper give a good support (defog, scald, roost) and give a good match-up vs sticky web.
A rain vs an offense it's a very good match-up.
Tapu fini and rotom (252def) and bulky grass are only mon on the OU who can check swampert without problem.
This is info that we already know. I think you should use what changed in the current game to make a much better argument IMO. The problem with Swampert and pelipper is that they rely on each other. If they are not in the same team, they can't exactly be used individually, can they? There are arguments on the other pages of the thread about this, and read those to know why they made it B instead of B+ or A-. If you have a better argument, I think more of the VR council will seriously hear you out.(just some advice)
The reason why many people use Smeargle is that it is one or the most reliable and and fast stick web setters in the tier. Shuckle mental herb is too slow and Galvantula has problems in matchup vs Landorus and Zygarde(ground types)
However, Magearna to S makes quite alot of sense. It is now one of the most metagame defining threats and has become even better that before. We already may know that the ban of M-Metagross red to a rise of fairies and steel types and I am sure many of us agree that it is easily the best Offensive steel type in the tier. HP fire doesn't even do much, only ground can do something to it. Zygarde is killed by a trick room magearna and and it is 2 hit KOED by Fleur cannon. Landorus-T holds it back, but it is so splashable and powerful that it hardly matters. Magearnas defenses are very good considring it is an offensive pokemon. and can take hits like a wall. because of that it is a worthy contender for S.
Honestly, and this might be a little bit overwhelming, I think a case could be made for all of Magearna, Zygarde and Greninja to all go S-rank.
I don't have the time to make a detailed proposal, but they and Lando are far and away the top 4 mons of OU and in a different league than Lele/Volc/Tang/Cele.
Also, thoughts on T-tar going from A- to B+. The rise of CB Zygarde and Fight-Z Magearna definitely hurt its viability, as do the continued dominance of M-Maw, M-Cham and M-Hera. Pursuit trapping is nice with the rise of Mew, but I would think it's still comparable to Weavile (who is also in B+) at that role.
