As a surprise set, though, it will probably work. The most likely moves are U-Turn or Psychic or Stealth Rock; all of those are countered by Sleep Powder and you can't actually die due to Sash, so Sleep Powder is the most likely move for Roserade and Magic Coat is a great choice against them; they're unlikely to go for hazards or Leaft Storm off the bat against Uxie.
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As a surprise set, though, it will probably work. The most likely moves are U-Turn or Psychic or Stealth Rock; all of those are countered by Sleep Powder and you can't actually die due to Sash, so Sleep Powder is the most likely move for Roserade and Magic Coat is a great choice against them; they're unlikely to go for hazards or Leaft Storm off the bat against Uxie.
Lum Berry might work instead of leftovers on that Uxie: It would ease your prediction about status a bit, and slanting the odds in your favor is always a good thing in battles.
Anyone tried this set??
DD Sub Runner
Gyarados @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk/4 Def/252 Spd (Probably in need of a better EV spread)
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Substitute
- Roar
This is sort a mixture of the SubBounce set and Tauntrados. Basically you'll want to keep up a Sub if possible to protect against status, and DD up when you get the chance. If something like Skarm comes in to try and phaze you, Roar him out first and rack up some SR damage. The Substitute, if up, can also protect against revenge killing for a turn, so you can hurt something (Preferably kill) before you're forced out again. If you repeat this procedure, whatever's checking Gyara would eventually get taken down. The trouble is that Vappy walls this entirely, but if you have Spikes and SR up, he can't really do much to you either (Unless he has HP Electric), while you just pile on the residual damage by Roaring.
DD Sub Runner
Gyarados @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk/4 Def/252 Spd (Probably in need of a better EV spread)
Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Substitute
- Roar
This is sort a mixture of the SubBounce set and Tauntrados. Basically you'll want to keep up a Sub if possible to protect against status, and DD up when you get the chance. If something like Skarm comes in to try and phaze you, Roar him out first and rack up some SR damage. The Substitute, if up, can also protect against revenge killing for a turn, so you can hurt something (Preferably kill) before you're forced out again. If you repeat this procedure, whatever's checking Gyara would eventually get taken down. The trouble is that Vappy walls this entirely, but if you have Spikes and SR up, he can't really do much to you either (Unless he has HP Electric), while you just pile on the residual damage by Roaring.
If the point of Roar is to beat Skarmory and Vaporeon trying to roar you out, you can just use Taunt and achieve generally better results, unless you have 3 layers of spikes and possibly 2 of toxic spikes on the field, and even then I think that there are better options to use roar, see sub-Zapdos or Skarmory itself.
Ok my favourite pokemon is Clefable, and after trying numerous sets, it just didn't have the stats to back up its magnificent ability. After a while, I came up with this lead, which I beleive makes Clefable viable in OU, which at the moment it isn't. Plus Clefable is cute.
This post is probably tl;dr but whatever, any criticisms, contributions or corrections are welcomed!
Since not many people are familiar with Clefable I'll give a little summary.
Clefable is a pure normal type with one weakness, fighting.
It's base stats are:
95hp/70atk/73def/85spa/90spd/60spe
It's best trait is its fantastic ability, Magic Guard, which blocks all damage that isn't done directly by an attack. This means no damage from the ever common entry hazards, status etc.
It's other great trait is it's unpredictablility, as the stratagy dex says:
Anywho, onto the set that I have been using.
Clefable @ Flame Orb
Calm
252hp/240def/16spdef
Stealth Rock
Trick
Wish
Protect
252HP for the best defense, while the given EV's plus calm mean Clefable is as bulky physically as specially (242). To be honest I wasn't sure with EV's so just made it so it's just as bulky on both sides.
Tricking flame orb on their switch is awesome on Clefable as most of its switch-ins are physical (although guts Machamp/Heracross are annoying). No pokemon really likes flame orb (bar other Clefable and fire pokemon unlike the odd choice item trick which can come back to haunt you later. It lets me scout the item they are using, and I don't really mind if I receive a choice item as I can either save it for a later trick or trick it back. In fact I prefer it as not only do things like CB Scizor get burned they also lose the power from their band. Protect is good for scouting choiced moves, and wish is great for general team support. SR seems almost mandatory on leads nowadays.
As a lead Clefable doesn't stop your opponent from getting rocks up, it does however get rocks up itself (unless taunted) and burn either their physical lead or their physical switch in. It then comes back in to wishpass or screw around with trick later.
All damage calcs have been done using the smogon calc with standard sets unless stated.
Against top 10 leads:
Azelf
Most Azelf don't carry taunt anymore, so I go for SR. If they do taunt then obviously I have to switch. Psychic does (35.8% - 42.1%) which isn't a problem, Explosion will KO, but no Azelf would do that on the first turn, meaning I get SR up if they don't taunt. I usually protect hoping they explode and sometimes switch.
Metagross
Trick first turn, if they SR great, if they attack, it's fine as they can't KO 252atk Meteor Mash vs Clefable (45.7% - 54.1%) If they get an attack boost it can be problematic, and I have to switch. From there it depends what they do. If they want to keep attacking then I can wish off the damage, normally I just setup SR and get out of there. If I think they will explode I protect, a burned explosion does (75.9% - 89.3%). This turns Clefable into death fodder but it's something at least.
Swampert
Trick first turn, they usually SR. I generally Trick again (sometimes SR). If they don't switch then you get a good item to trick again, and they still take 6% a turn (which is very useful against swampert as lefties is it's primary method of healing). If they don't switch you can take anything Swampert throws at you (physical attacks are neutered, and Swamperts lacking SpA doesn't make much of an impact) letting Clefable set up SR. If they do switch, then I get to steal the item from the switch in. Although they get lefties, not many walls switch in to Clef so I find ridding them of their item is done. The main positive though is that Swampert is severely disadvantaged for the rest of the game.
Aerodactyl
Clefable can't handle taunt so I switch straight out.
Jirachi
Jirachi is curious. Most Jirachi's go straight for the trick thinking Clefable is slow and will be destroyed by a Scarf. In return though, Jirachi gets Flame Orb. There are a few choices I can take, if I trick first turn, then he gets scarf back, I get my Orb back (which I think is better than scarf to trick onto others) and I beleive he is locked into trick, giving me a free turn to SR. If it Iron Heads (27.4% - 32.2%) then I hope that I don't get flinchaxd 3 times (it's happened) and trick it flame orb. If they u-turn first then whatever they bring in gets a flame orb. If they SR I can do it next turn (unless I've tricked, in which case I trick again to give scarf back to Jirachi, or their incoming poke).
So yeah barring them choosing Iron Head and getting 3 flinches (which does happen, silly serene grace) I can usually get Jirachi burnt and get SR up. It also depends on if they switch and what they switch to.
Infernape
Protect on the fake out, CC does (70.6% - 83.8%) with 64atk EV's and (82.7% - 98%) with 252. Both Naive. So I can set up SR. Obviously no point tricking. Some SR first turn as I protect which is annoying but I can survive the incoming CC and get SR up. I'm then forced to switch so it's not an ideal matchup but I can get the job done.
Roserade
Protect on the sleep, and get burned so they can't sleep me again (some people don't realise I'm burned and go for sleep powder again which is good. Set up SR. Leaf Storm does (55.1% - 65%) so after a SpA drop I'm not too fussed.
Heatran
Set up SR and get out. I can't do much against Heatran. If it attacks then Fire Blast does (48.7% - 57.4%). Hopefully I can get a lucky protect on Explosion which does (81% - 95.4%) which puts Clefable out of the game (it hardly forces switches at it's speed with 12%) but it can act as death fodder if necessary later.
Smeargle
Protect first turn to prevent the spore, or scout if its the Scarfed version. Some Smeargle carry taunt which screws me over, but if it spikes I can get SR up and switch out to do something later.
Hippowdon
Trick straight away, leaving it with a burn which no wall likes. I can then set up SR, or trick again, if I think a switch is coming. Even if my Opponent2 doesn't switch he's left with a Hippo losing 6% a turn, and I get orb back (although leftovers recovery would be useful).
Here are a couple of logs where Clefable has done its job perfectly, set up SR, screw their physical sweepers around, and potentially wishpass later.
Both logs contain wishstalling, and some people may say Vaporeon and Blissey would do the job better. However I feel that Clefables better physical defence, ability to burn, and cripple more switchins with trick without resorting to a choice item like many tricksters do, immunity to hail, sandstorm, all entry hazards and any statuses make it very viable in OU.
Perhaps one of Clefables greatest assets is it's unpredictability and how it is underestimated. People take it for granted, but give it a chance and it will screw your team around with trick (see logs), set up SR fairly reliably, and support the team with wish.
This post is probably tl;dr but whatever, any criticisms, contributions or corrections are welcomed!
Since not many people are familiar with Clefable I'll give a little summary.
Clefable is a pure normal type with one weakness, fighting.
It's base stats are:
95hp/70atk/73def/85spa/90spd/60spe
It's best trait is its fantastic ability, Magic Guard, which blocks all damage that isn't done directly by an attack. This means no damage from the ever common entry hazards, status etc.
It's other great trait is it's unpredictablility, as the stratagy dex says:
strategy dex said:
Anywho, onto the set that I have been using.
Clefable @ Flame Orb
Calm
252hp/240def/16spdef
Stealth Rock
Trick
Wish
Protect
252HP for the best defense, while the given EV's plus calm mean Clefable is as bulky physically as specially (242). To be honest I wasn't sure with EV's so just made it so it's just as bulky on both sides.
Tricking flame orb on their switch is awesome on Clefable as most of its switch-ins are physical (although guts Machamp/Heracross are annoying). No pokemon really likes flame orb (bar other Clefable and fire pokemon unlike the odd choice item trick which can come back to haunt you later. It lets me scout the item they are using, and I don't really mind if I receive a choice item as I can either save it for a later trick or trick it back. In fact I prefer it as not only do things like CB Scizor get burned they also lose the power from their band. Protect is good for scouting choiced moves, and wish is great for general team support. SR seems almost mandatory on leads nowadays.
As a lead Clefable doesn't stop your opponent from getting rocks up, it does however get rocks up itself (unless taunted) and burn either their physical lead or their physical switch in. It then comes back in to wishpass or screw around with trick later.
All damage calcs have been done using the smogon calc with standard sets unless stated.
Against top 10 leads:
Azelf
Most Azelf don't carry taunt anymore, so I go for SR. If they do taunt then obviously I have to switch. Psychic does (35.8% - 42.1%) which isn't a problem, Explosion will KO, but no Azelf would do that on the first turn, meaning I get SR up if they don't taunt. I usually protect hoping they explode and sometimes switch.
Metagross
Trick first turn, if they SR great, if they attack, it's fine as they can't KO 252atk Meteor Mash vs Clefable (45.7% - 54.1%) If they get an attack boost it can be problematic, and I have to switch. From there it depends what they do. If they want to keep attacking then I can wish off the damage, normally I just setup SR and get out of there. If I think they will explode I protect, a burned explosion does (75.9% - 89.3%). This turns Clefable into death fodder but it's something at least.
Swampert
Trick first turn, they usually SR. I generally Trick again (sometimes SR). If they don't switch then you get a good item to trick again, and they still take 6% a turn (which is very useful against swampert as lefties is it's primary method of healing). If they don't switch you can take anything Swampert throws at you (physical attacks are neutered, and Swamperts lacking SpA doesn't make much of an impact) letting Clefable set up SR. If they do switch, then I get to steal the item from the switch in. Although they get lefties, not many walls switch in to Clef so I find ridding them of their item is done. The main positive though is that Swampert is severely disadvantaged for the rest of the game.
Aerodactyl
Clefable can't handle taunt so I switch straight out.
Jirachi
Jirachi is curious. Most Jirachi's go straight for the trick thinking Clefable is slow and will be destroyed by a Scarf. In return though, Jirachi gets Flame Orb. There are a few choices I can take, if I trick first turn, then he gets scarf back, I get my Orb back (which I think is better than scarf to trick onto others) and I beleive he is locked into trick, giving me a free turn to SR. If it Iron Heads (27.4% - 32.2%) then I hope that I don't get flinchaxd 3 times (it's happened) and trick it flame orb. If they u-turn first then whatever they bring in gets a flame orb. If they SR I can do it next turn (unless I've tricked, in which case I trick again to give scarf back to Jirachi, or their incoming poke).
So yeah barring them choosing Iron Head and getting 3 flinches (which does happen, silly serene grace) I can usually get Jirachi burnt and get SR up. It also depends on if they switch and what they switch to.
Infernape
Protect on the fake out, CC does (70.6% - 83.8%) with 64atk EV's and (82.7% - 98%) with 252. Both Naive. So I can set up SR. Obviously no point tricking. Some SR first turn as I protect which is annoying but I can survive the incoming CC and get SR up. I'm then forced to switch so it's not an ideal matchup but I can get the job done.
Roserade
Protect on the sleep, and get burned so they can't sleep me again (some people don't realise I'm burned and go for sleep powder again which is good. Set up SR. Leaf Storm does (55.1% - 65%) so after a SpA drop I'm not too fussed.
Heatran
Set up SR and get out. I can't do much against Heatran. If it attacks then Fire Blast does (48.7% - 57.4%). Hopefully I can get a lucky protect on Explosion which does (81% - 95.4%) which puts Clefable out of the game (it hardly forces switches at it's speed with 12%) but it can act as death fodder if necessary later.
Smeargle
Protect first turn to prevent the spore, or scout if its the Scarfed version. Some Smeargle carry taunt which screws me over, but if it spikes I can get SR up and switch out to do something later.
Hippowdon
Trick straight away, leaving it with a burn which no wall likes. I can then set up SR, or trick again, if I think a switch is coming. Even if my Opponent2 doesn't switch he's left with a Hippo losing 6% a turn, and I get orb back (although leftovers recovery would be useful).
Here are a couple of logs where Clefable has done its job perfectly, set up SR, screw their physical sweepers around, and potentially wishpass later.
Code:
Due to magic guard, all burn and sandstorm damage to
Clefable has been omitted. All SR damage has been omitted.
I am Irish Wristwatch and TestIcicle. My opponents names
have been omitted to Opponent1 and Opponent2.
Irish Wristwatch's Metagross fainted.
Swampert's leftovers restored its health a little!
Swampert restored 6% of its health.
---
Irish Wristwatch switched in Clefable (lvl 100 Clefable ?).
Opponent1 switched in Breloom (lvl 100 Breloom ?).
Clefable used Trick.
Clefable obtained Toxic Orb!
Breloom obtained Flame Orb!
Breloom was burned!
I love it when this happens. Screw over their physical switch in
who thinks Clefable is perfect setup fodder. Breloom is great as
I can trick Toxic onto something later. and deprive it of poison heal.
[SIZE="1"]Breloom used Substitute.
Breloom lost 25% of its health.
Breloom made a substitute!
Clefable used Wish.
Clefable made a wish!
Breloom was hurt by its burn!
Breloom lost 12% of its health.
Breloom is tightening its focus!
Clefable used Protect.
Clefable protected itself!
Breloom used Focus Punch.
Clefable protected itself!
The wish came true!
Clefable restored 18% of its health.
Breloom is tightening its focus!
Clefable used Wish.
Clefable made a wish!
Breloom used Focus Punch.
It's super effective!
Clefable lost 70% of its health.
Breloom is tightening its focus!
Clefable used Protect.
Clefable protected itself!
Breloom used Focus Punch.
Clefable protected itself!
The wish came true!
Clefable restored 50% of its health.
Breloom is tightening its focus!
Clefable used Wish.
Clefable made a wish!
Breloom used Focus Punch.
It's super effective!
Clefable lost 67% of its health.[/SIZE]
Wish-stalling. Focus Punch after burn does (67% - 79.2%)
My own burn preventing spore, his burn + lack of poison
heal and wish/protect lets Clefable stall out a 130 base attack
fighting poke with super effective STAB on the most powerful
fighting attack in the game to 9% before it switched out.
Opponent1 switched in Tyranitar (lvl 100 Tyranitar ?).
Tyranitar's Sand Stream whipped up a sandstorm!
Clefable used Protect.
Clefable protected itself!
The wish came true!
Clefable restored 50% of its health.
Tyranitar used Dragon Dance.
Tyranitar's attack was raised.
Tyranitar's speed was raised.
Clefable used Trick.
Clefable obtained Lum Berry!
Tyranitar obtained Toxic Orb!
Tyranitar was badly poisoned!
Tyranitar used Stone Edge.
Tyranitar's attack missed!
Clefable used Wish.
Clefable made a wish!
I get lucky, but if SE had hit it would have done 68% - 80.2%
(assuming standard EV's and the +1 from DD). I later find
he is running jolly which would have done (61.9% - 73.1%).
Clefable used Protect.
Clefable protected itself!
Tyranitar used Dragon Dance.
Tyranitar's attack was raised.
Tyranitar's speed was raised.
The wish came true!
Clefable restored 37% of its health.
Bad play by me.
Tyranitar used Stone Edge.
Tyranitar's attack missed!
Clefable used Wish.
Clefable made a wish!
Obviously I have been incredibly lucky, there is a 0.04
(0.2*0.2) so 4% chance of stone edge missing twice.
It would have done (82.5% - 97.5%) so I still would
have lived however. In the meantime, T-tar is taking
increasing toxic orb damage.
Tyranitar used Crunch.
Clefable lost 66% of its health.
Clefable used Trick.
Clefable obtained Toxic Orb!
Tyranitar obtained Lum Berry!
The wish came true!
Clefable restored 50% of its health.
I expect another DD. I can't wish again, don't want to waste
protect and SR is useless so I trick thinking toxic orb may be
useful later. I am again outplayed. I'm pleasantly surprised
to see a +2 STAB crunch from Ttar do 66%
Clefable used Protect.
Clefable protected itself!
Tyranitar used Stone Edge.
Clefable protected itself!
Tyranitar is hurt by poison!
Tyranitar lost 26% of its health.
Opponent1's Tyranitar fainted.
And Tyranitar faints. As I said obviously Clefable was
very lucky, but considering I was completely outplayed
in that, if I had wished on his dragon dances and protected
on his Stone Edges I would have fared better. Even if one
of his stone edges had hit I would have been fine, although
if both had hit I don't think Clefable would have survived.
Nevertheless Clefable shows its worth by taking out 2 of his
physical sweepers.
Later in a different game.
nb. Clefable was forced out earlier due to an Aerodactly
lead so he doesn't know my set.
Opponent2 switched in Dugtrio (lvl 100 Dugtrio ?).
Clefable used Trick.
Clefable obtained Choice Band!
Dugtrio obtained Flame Orb!
Dugtrio was burned!
Clefable was hurt by its burn!
Dugtrio used Earthquake.
Clefable lost 16% of its health.
Clefable used Trick.
Clefable obtained Flame Orb!
Dugtrio obtained Choice Band!
Dugtrio was hurt by its burn!
Dugtrio lost 12% of its health.
Tricking flame orb onto the incoming physical sweeper is Clefables favourite hobby.
Dugtrio used Earthquake.
Clefable lost 26% of its health.
Clefable used Wish.
Clefable made a wish!
Clefable used Protect.
Clefable protected itself!
Dugtrio used Earthquake.
Clefable protected itself!
The wish came true!
Clefable restored 50% of its health.
By now my Opponent would have realised that I can
easily outstall a burnt Dugtrio, so I trick again. If I get
the band back, I can simply trick again giving band to
something if he switches, or trick again to get flame orb
again and wishstall.
Opponent2 switched in Lucario (lvl 100 Lucario ?).
Clefable used Trick.
Clefable obtained Life Orb!
Lucario obtained Flame Orb!
Lucario was burned!
Trick pays off to hit Lucario which cripples him later in
the game as I switch out.Both logs contain wishstalling, and some people may say Vaporeon and Blissey would do the job better. However I feel that Clefables better physical defence, ability to burn, and cripple more switchins with trick without resorting to a choice item like many tricksters do, immunity to hail, sandstorm, all entry hazards and any statuses make it very viable in OU.
Perhaps one of Clefables greatest assets is it's unpredictability and how it is underestimated. People take it for granted, but give it a chance and it will screw your team around with trick (see logs), set up SR fairly reliably, and support the team with wish.
I gotta say that that Clefable set is really cool. I've tried out several sets for Clefable in OU, and that looks better than what I came up with! With Flame Orb not burning Fires like Heatran and Infernape and Clefable's risks there, I'd suspect Gyarados or Latias to be great partners to switch to once you set up your Rocks. I gotta try that thing out, being a Clefable lover myself!
That set has been posted in this thread at least 3 times. Sorry to tell you this, knowing you have been using this for a while.
Anyway, I can't believe Haban Berry isn't in other options for Kingdra in the analysis. I might go ahead an use it to murder those Scarf Latias and Flygon that try to revenge kill it.
Anyway, I can't believe Haban Berry isn't in other options for Kingdra in the analysis. I might go ahead an use it to murder those Scarf Latias and Flygon that try to revenge kill it.
Seems a viable lead. You might want to adjust the EV spread, as I'm not sure 50/50 physical-special defense is the best route. Try to think hard about specific OHKO's or 2HKO's you might want to avoid and adjust to those. I also have a problem with this statement:
EDIT: 38.7 percent of all azelf carry Taunt. That includes non lead Azelf. Probably higher for lead Azelf.
What? Lead Azelf is supposed to be a pro at stopping and setting up its own rocks. Nearly all LeadZelf's have taunt. I'll go see if I can find any specific lead stats to back me up.
EDIT: 38.7 percent of all azelf carry Taunt. That includes non lead Azelf. Probably higher for lead Azelf.
While there have been "LeadFable" sets here and there, they're not quite that exact set, if I recall correctly, and never with a very detailed description on how to effectively use it that Zakkusu provided with his/hers.
bearsfan092 said:
That's a good chuck of em'... I thought they were declining recently for some reason, perhaps cause I've only come across non-Taunt ones in the last month. I look forward to December stats. Either way, I'm thinking of a backup plan for my personal testing. Stupid Explosions...
Wow, I wanted something new, and I got something capable of taking on all leads bar taunters, Heatran, and Infernape, though it still gets its job against the latter two. Meet Clefable, the SR lead. This variant is different from others. Let me explain.
Clefable (M) @ Flame Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP/162 Def/96 Spd
Impish nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Trick
- Stealth Rock
- Protect
- Seismic Toss
---
It just hinders Metagross outspeeding the 8 speed EV'd Metagross by 2 points (for those that gets smart and add an extra point) to burn it. SR is what it does reliably being stopped only by Dynamic punch Machamp and taunters. Anything else can't really scratch it. Wish support would be acceptable for this lead. Below are some damage calcs.
Timid roserade's leafstorm 2KO (counting special attak drop)
349 SpAtk vs 216 SpDef & 394 HP (140 Base Power): 244 - 288 (61.93% - 73.10%)
Lead gross's meteor mash (outsped and tricked btw) 2KOs when not ubrned
403 Atk vs 244 Def & 394 HP (100 Base Power): 178 - 210 (45.18% - 53.30%)
When burned
403 Atk vs 244 Def & 394 HP (100 Base Power): 90 - 106 (22.84% - 26.90%)
Lead ape's CC never OHKOs
260 Atk vs 244 Def & 394 HP (120 Base Power): 276 - 326 (70.05% - 82.74%)
Azelf's psychic 3KOs
349 Atk vs 216 Def & 394 HP (90 Base Power): 157 - 186 (39.85% - 47.21%)
As you can see, it fares well against many of the top leads with protect activating the burn preventing status leads from ruining your fun. If you save your FO for later you might even catch something like Scizor on the switch, though it's unlikely. The bulk provided by these EVs is just amazing considering the amount of damage most physical attacks like Scizor's U-turn will do.
Maybe not as detailed (but still detailed showing how it deals with other leads), it's still the same pokemon and almost the exact same set (wish over Seismic Toss; you decide which is better in the face of an Aerodactyl). There's also the one on the first page of this thread made by blasphemy1.
After doing some damage calcs, Kingdra has potential to survive a Modest Scarf Latias's Draco Meteor and still use Substitute with a proper EV spread. This pretty much guarantees it can survive an Outrage as well. I'm going to give it a shot since an extra Dragon Dance in the face of a revenge killer is just something to laugh at as you rip apart the rest of the team.
With an EV spread of 80 HP/252 Atk/176 Sp. Def Kingdra survives a Draco Meteor taking 74% max from Modest Scarf Latias with a Haban berry. It takes 64.7% max from a Jolly Scarf Flygon's Outrage. That's impressive seeing as it can DD in their face. With this EV spread, I still fail to outspeed them. Jolly with some Speed EVs might be better
Kingdra, with a neutral nature, needs 240 Speed to outspeed Modest Scarf Latias after two DDs. That's 136 Speed EVs. So a better spread would be Adamant 122 HP / 252 Atk / 136 Speed.
EDIT: Against the new spread, Kingdra takes 72.9% - 86% from a standard Scarf Latias's Draco Meteor, so it still can't OHKO after SR. If Sandstorm is active and Stealth Rock is down, it has a chance to OHKO.
EDIT: Against the new spread, Kingdra takes 72.9% - 86% from a standard Scarf Latias's Draco Meteor, so it still can't OHKO after SR. If Sandstorm is active and Stealth Rock is down, it has a chance to OHKO.
I have personally seen more and more Azelfs without taunt but I can't argue with the stats I suppose. Azelf shuts Clefable down then. Yeah I've never been sure about the defensive EV's. 50/50 have done the job so far but I guess I'll look at those in more detail. I suppose it's versatile in that you can change it to suit your team, if you want it to take physical or special hits better.
@MetaGross66 I didn't know if this set had been posted before, I'd never seen one before and theres not a really similar set on the strategy dex so I just assumed it'd never been done before. I think it's a great lead and deserves more popularity so yeah.
@MetaGross66 I didn't know if this set had been posted before, I'd never seen one before and theres not a really similar set on the strategy dex so I just assumed it'd never been done before. I think it's a great lead and deserves more popularity so yeah.
Same here when I posted it. :p
There was a recent surge in DS Azelfs and they normally carry Taunt which is probably why it isn't as effective as it could be. Otherwise, it is an amazing lead. I read your warstory when you were up against Hang. It played remarkably (I'm from the GTS as well, known as Clam). ;)
Edit: Is it possible to outspeed Flygon. If it's not, that EV spread is still good. I'm probably going to use it on the team I've built featuring Kingdra. With Haban Berry it has no weaknesses! And that is just amazing for a pokemon with good typing and decent defenses.
Lol. Must have forgotten those two examples of "LeadFable"... I must look like a blind/forgetful silly goose, then... Ignore me and my post about that. XD
That Kingdra set, with a Jolly nature, after one Dragon Dance hits 339 speed. Standard Flygon and Latias (Scarved) hit 492 and 525, respectively. After 2 DD's it hits 452. It would take 136 Speed EV's to outspeed both max speed, +Natured Latias and Flygon after 2 Dragon Dances. So, while it can't set up in their faces, it can Dragon Dance twice after forcing a switch to them (for a revenge kill?) and survive their hits to strike back. So a new EV spread of 80 HP, 116 Attack, 136 Speed, and 176 Sp. Defense and a Jolly Nature would have these calcs, from Smogon Calculator:
Latias:
Timid Chocie Scarf Latias' Draco Meteor: 57.2% - 67.5%
Modest Chocie Scarf Latias' Draco Meteor: 62.7% - 74.3%
Jolly Kingdra's +2 Outrage vs Scarf Latias: 202.6% - 238.4%
Flygon:
Jolly Chocie Scarf Flygon's Outrage: 55% - 65%
Adamant Chocie Scarf Flygon's Outrage: 60.1% - 71.4%
Jolly Kingdra's +2 Outrage vs Scarf Flygon: 222.5% - 262.3%
Added bonus...
Jolly Kingdra's +1 Outrage vs DD Salamence: 152.3% - 179.5%
Sounds fun! I may have to try it out!
That Kingdra set, with a Jolly nature, after one Dragon Dance hits 339 speed. Standard Flygon and Latias (Scarved) hit 492 and 525, respectively. After 2 DD's it hits 452. It would take 136 Speed EV's to outspeed both max speed, +Natured Latias and Flygon after 2 Dragon Dances. So, while it can't set up in their faces, it can Dragon Dance twice after forcing a switch to them (for a revenge kill?) and survive their hits to strike back. So a new EV spread of 80 HP, 116 Attack, 136 Speed, and 176 Sp. Defense and a Jolly Nature would have these calcs, from Smogon Calculator:
Latias:
Timid Chocie Scarf Latias' Draco Meteor: 57.2% - 67.5%
Modest Chocie Scarf Latias' Draco Meteor: 62.7% - 74.3%
Jolly Kingdra's +2 Outrage vs Scarf Latias: 202.6% - 238.4%
Flygon:
Jolly Chocie Scarf Flygon's Outrage: 55% - 65%
Adamant Chocie Scarf Flygon's Outrage: 60.1% - 71.4%
Jolly Kingdra's +2 Outrage vs Scarf Flygon: 222.5% - 262.3%
Added bonus...
Jolly Kingdra's +1 Outrage vs DD Salamence: 152.3% - 179.5%
Sounds fun! I may have to try it out!
A TruetoCheese custom creation:
Slow SubPetaya
Empoleon @ Petaya Berry
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP/4 Spd/252 SAtk
Modest nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Substitute
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Grass Knot
Now when you look at this set your probably thinking WTF?!? or "why did you butcher the Agility SubPetaya set?" well I did it for one reason. Trick Room.
This set gains perfect coverage as you don't need Agility after you use Trick Room. This set can take down 4-5 pokes before Trick Room wears off.
Along with the Petaya boost and Modest nature this guy's max attack can skyrocket to close to 530!
A good partner for this would be a Celebi with Trick Room on it. As it would Trick, switch out and Emp would come in and sweep. If the opponent was a fire type. THough when using this set make sure there is no Stealth Rock on your side of the field.
The bad part is Blissey completely walls this set. So keep handy a physical sweeper. I use Marowak.
Well what do you think? The EV spread could be made better but I'm not good at those kind of things. But I've tested it out and it does fairly well.
Slow SubPetaya
Empoleon @ Petaya Berry
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP/4 Spd/252 SAtk
Modest nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Substitute
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Grass Knot
Now when you look at this set your probably thinking WTF?!? or "why did you butcher the Agility SubPetaya set?" well I did it for one reason. Trick Room.
This set gains perfect coverage as you don't need Agility after you use Trick Room. This set can take down 4-5 pokes before Trick Room wears off.
Along with the Petaya boost and Modest nature this guy's max attack can skyrocket to close to 530!
A good partner for this would be a Celebi with Trick Room on it. As it would Trick, switch out and Emp would come in and sweep. If the opponent was a fire type. THough when using this set make sure there is no Stealth Rock on your side of the field.
The bad part is Blissey completely walls this set. So keep handy a physical sweeper. I use Marowak.
Well what do you think? The EV spread could be made better but I'm not good at those kind of things. But I've tested it out and it does fairly well.
The problem is that you would waste 4 of your 5 Trick Room turns just getting Petaya activated (One to switch Empoleon in, 3 to get to Sub down to Petaya activation). You have one turn to abuse whatever you want to use (Which is often stalled out), and you're in the mercy of whatever revenge killer that'll come your way when Trick Room expires. If you want a Trick Room Empy, I'd suggest:
Empoleon @ Life Orb
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP/4 Def/252 SAtk
Quiet nature (+SAtk, -Spe), IVs: 0 Spe
- Surf/Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Grass Knot
- Filler (Probably HP Electric or Sleep Talk)
EVs are rather simple, and the combination of Nature and 0 Speed EVs and IVs are of course, for you to be slow as possible so you out'speed' as many things as possible under Trick Room. If you've brought this in once or twice, you might even get Torrent activated and have 3 turns of fun with Torrent boosted Surfs or Hydro Pumps too.
Here's a fun set for an overlooked NU:
Manectric @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Static
EVs: 4 HP/252 SpA/252 Spd
Nature: Modest/Timid
-Thunderbolt
-Overheat/Flamethrower
-Hidden Power Ice
-Switcheroo
Manectric can outrun a +1 Spd Salamence and OHKOs with Hidden Power Ice. Even if Mence has Yache Berry, HP Ice from a Modest Manectric does 58-69% to a Naughty Mence, so it can still kill it if it got hit by Stealth Rock and 2-3 rounds of Sandstorm damage.
Additionally, Manectric outspeds and OHKOs +1 Spd Gyarados, and thanks to resisting steel, Manectric can take a Bullet Punch from Scizor after Stealth Rock and OHKO back with a fire attack. Switcheroo is a Trick clone, so Manectric can have fun with Trickscarfing too.
Unfortunately, Manectric is fragile and thus is limited to revenge killing a limited number of threats. Still, he's kinda fun and can take opponents by surprise.
Manectric @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Static
EVs: 4 HP/252 SpA/252 Spd
Nature: Modest/Timid
-Thunderbolt
-Overheat/Flamethrower
-Hidden Power Ice
-Switcheroo
Manectric can outrun a +1 Spd Salamence and OHKOs with Hidden Power Ice. Even if Mence has Yache Berry, HP Ice from a Modest Manectric does 58-69% to a Naughty Mence, so it can still kill it if it got hit by Stealth Rock and 2-3 rounds of Sandstorm damage.
Additionally, Manectric outspeds and OHKOs +1 Spd Gyarados, and thanks to resisting steel, Manectric can take a Bullet Punch from Scizor after Stealth Rock and OHKO back with a fire attack. Switcheroo is a Trick clone, so Manectric can have fun with Trickscarfing too.
Unfortunately, Manectric is fragile and thus is limited to revenge killing a limited number of threats. Still, he's kinda fun and can take opponents by surprise.
That's pretty much the Choice Specs set except with a Scarf and Switcheroo. I've used it before once, and it was pretty good, I have to admit. However, this is pretty much outclassed by Raikou who has better Special Attack and Speed, not to mention is bulkier, the only thing Raikou can't do it use a Fire attack or Trick.
I like that Manectric set. It has all the qualities a Special Scarfer wants: a great STAB attack, decent Speed/SAtk, and great type coverage, as Electric/Ice/Fire is a combination that every Scarfer wants. I believe that it isn't outclassed by Raikou or Magnezone, as they don't have the movepool to run 3 attacks. The Switcheroo is pretty cool, too.
The surprise set doesn't hurt, either.
The surprise set doesn't hurt, either.
Yeah I posted that Clefable set back on page 1, however it has different EVs and Wish so there is some use(just don't go saying you came up with it first, I'm sure I didn't either).
That Manetric It's like a faster but more frail and without it's immunities scarf rotom.
Cool set /idea though , i like it.
Cool set /idea though , i like it.
Hmmm, just a thought I had the other day =/
Gengar@Focus Sash
Nature:Timid
EV's:252 DEF/Sp.DEF/Sp.ATK 252 SPD
Mean Look
Disable
Pain Split
Shadow Ball
Idea of this set is to kind of mimic a Wobbuffet. However, this set's goal, (easily trampled by the likes of sandstorm, stealth rock, though, Gengar still has a slight chance of surviving neutral attacks...) is meant to be sent out against something it can force a switch against, mean look the switch(preferably a scarfer or choicer of any kind, for that matter) and pain split against the attack that's coming(as disabled cannot be used yet, also provides Gengar with health for surviving the oncoming Struggle, struggle hits ghosts, right?) then proceed to shut it down with Disable. Painsplit health back from the attack, and clean it up with Shadow Ball after restoring much needed health.
Alternatively, Salac Berry can be used over Focus Sash with Endure used over Pain Split.
Gengar@Focus Sash
Nature:Timid
EV's:252 DEF/Sp.DEF/Sp.ATK 252 SPD
Mean Look
Disable
Pain Split
Shadow Ball
Idea of this set is to kind of mimic a Wobbuffet. However, this set's goal, (easily trampled by the likes of sandstorm, stealth rock, though, Gengar still has a slight chance of surviving neutral attacks...) is meant to be sent out against something it can force a switch against, mean look the switch(preferably a scarfer or choicer of any kind, for that matter) and pain split against the attack that's coming(as disabled cannot be used yet, also provides Gengar with health for surviving the oncoming Struggle, struggle hits ghosts, right?) then proceed to shut it down with Disable. Painsplit health back from the attack, and clean it up with Shadow Ball after restoring much needed health.
Alternatively, Salac Berry can be used over Focus Sash with Endure used over Pain Split.
It's not exactly new as I discovered (Uber Gengar with Thunderbolt over HP fire), but here's a Gengar set I've been using, and it's funny laughing at Scarftars that come in on an Icy Wind (usually aimed at Gliscor whose number 1 partner is Tyranitar) just to get killed by a Focus Blast next turn. Here it is.
Gengar (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 6 HP/252 Spd/252 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Shadow Ball
- Thunderbolt
- Icy Wind
- Focus Blast
---It really helps knowing that Gengar's worst enemies, scarfers and faster Pokemon, can't switch in safely now thanks to Icy Wind which also serves to OHKO all the OU Dragons which is pretty neat after you also look at its side effect. It lowers speed making it far more difficult for Scarf Tyranitars and other Pokemon designed to beat it to kill it allowing it to sweep almost unhindered. It can even open up a sweep for other Pokemon.
Gengar (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 6 HP/252 Spd/252 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Shadow Ball
- Thunderbolt
- Icy Wind
- Focus Blast
---
That Gengar looks like it would be a good partner for Latias. The most surefire counter to Latias is Scarftar, and this Gengar can lure out Scarftar and KO it with Focus Blast. The only problem would be Focus Blast's accuracy. Gengar also attracts Scizor, which can Pursue or BP Latias, and Blissey, which walls it. After you lure out Scizor, you can force it out with a bulky Water or Electric (HP Fire Gar is common enough now for Scizor to avoid using Pursuit) and get a free turn of setup. Blissey can be answered by any Pursuiter, preferably BaitTar, since not only can BaitTar OHKO Blissey with Superpower after bluffing a Scarf set with Pursuit, but it can also lure out Scizor and OHKO it with Fire Blast. The Gengar you posted would be perfect for easing a Latias sweep.