Sceptile can be useful over Venusaur by running Rock Slide and being faster than Moltres. Just a thought.
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np: UU - Rain Drops Keep Falling on my Head
- Thread starter JabbaTheGriffin
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Yeah, as much as I hate to admit it, SpecsTile is dying (although I still use it on pretty much all of my teams). It still has considerable power with Leaf Storm, but the abundance of Venusaur and Moltres has really put a damper on its strength. During the time when Donphan just entered UU, I wrote a mixed set for Sceptile on-site, but it's probably outdated. However, a Sceptile with a fast Rock Slide to OHKO Moltres could be quite respectable in this metagame.
If you're not seeing why Moltres is not "different" enough to differentiate I would like you to consider a Pokemon with Magmortar's SpA, Charizard's Speed and typing, Increase both its HP and Defense, and give it recovery. Does that not make it "that much better"?
The reason people use Moltres is simply because it has the absolutely deadly combination of Power, Coverage, Bulk, Speed, and Recovery. Remember Shaymin? Same thing. He had a much shittier offense and much better Defensive-typing (not sure at the moment with Froslass in the metagame however).
Again I'm not saying Moltres is broken, but whenever someone suggests that Moltres < Charizard / Magmortar, I feel obligated to reply with "Here is why everyone uses Moltres and not Magmortar/Charizard", if you like Magmortar or Charizard better, that's fine, but you cannot justify saying that Moltres < either of those two Pokemon.
I really think Magmortar and Charizard are much better when compared to (I can't believe I'm saying this) Blaziken. I'm pretty sure my most successful Charizard set was Fire Blast / Focus Punch / Hidden Power Grass(or Air Slash or Rock Slide etc) / Roost, and my most successful Blaziken set was Fire Blast / Superpower / HP Electric / Vacuum Wave. This is what Charizard and Magmortar are good at: Wall-breaking. Moltres is in a different league altogether with its bulk and SpA combination that these Pokemon lack.
This has been debated time and time again, and the result has always been the same: Chansey/Blissey is nowhere near BL/Uber. Instead of just theorymoning, you should actually play it and see how many Pokemon it actually walls. The figure is a lot less than you would expect. Let's just see how Chansey deals with every UU:
Bold means Chansey can wall it with near perfect reliability, while Bold plus * means Chansey can wall it, but certain variants of the Pokemon can beat Chansey.
Absol - Completely rapes Chansey, Any attack after SD will kill it, even without SD, he can just Superpower her. CB ones can catch her with Pursuit, meaning she can no longer switch into a special sweeper without at worst being 2HKO'd
.
Aggron - Head Smash. Boom. Dead Chansey
Alakazam - Specs Focus Blast has a high chance of 2HKOing with Stealth Rock/Spikes down, Chansey will lose to Trick (So basically, she cannot come in safely on two of his attacks). Alakazam can also Taunt Chansey for some major pain.
Altaria - Chansey will hate DD Dragon Dances, if Altaria is running Heal Bell/Roost or RestTalk, Chansey has no chance of beating Altaria
Ambipom - Return will do a crap-load.
Arcanine - While Chansey herself will easily die to Flare Blitz, Arcanine is not going to want to Flare Blitz her for obvious reasons.
Azumarill - Pretty much everything would end Chansey here
Blastoise - Chansey can wall pretty much every Blastoise variant except for CB, which is never seen. However, pitting Chansey in front of Blastoise means he can spin or he likes.
Blaziken - Superpower completely shatters Chansey
Chansey - I think people would have better things to do than to engage a Chansey vs Chansey war
Claydol - Trick completely screws Chansey. He can also blow up on her too, not to mention he can pretty much set up whatever he wants, Dual Screen, Stealth Rock, Rapid Spin, you name it, he'll do it right in front of Chansey
Clefable - Chansey can do absolutely jack shit to Clefable, since Magic Guard ignores Toxic. In return, Clefable can Encore her if using defensive sets, or Double Edge Chansey to oblivion if its an offensive set, or just Belly Drum in front of her eyes (Though this is rare)
Donphan - Can SR and Spin in peace, while EQ will break Chansey down very quickly
Drapion - Can SD, Taunt, set up Toxic Spikes in front her
Drifblim - Can Sub/CM all he likes, and Chansey can't do a thing
Dugtrio - lol
Feraligatr - DD/SDs in front of her
Froslass - Sets up as many layers of Spikes as she likes, and can Taunt Chansey for even more lols.
Hariyama - lol
Hitmonlee - lol
Hitmontop - Can spin, Close Combat annihilates her, and can also set up Bulk Up in preparation for a sweep
Houndoom* - Chansey can wall it reasonably well, although the Mixed set or even Taunt/Nasty Plot can give Chansey hell.
Kabutops - lol
Lanturn* - SubCharge beats Chansey eventually though
Ludicolo - Special ones can Focus Punch Chansey, while SD ones will rape her. SubSeeders will also beat Chansey
Mesprit - Can wall stuff like CM sets, but will hate physical sets, supporting sets (Mesprit can setup whatever she likes) and Trick
Milotic - Walls Milotic well, although RestTalk versions will drag the match for a looooooong time
Mismagius - Any set with Substitute or Taunt beats Chansey
Moltres* - Chansey can wall most special versions unless you allow 3 layers of Spikes up. However, Chansey will hate SubRoost Moltres, and will need to engage mind games to come out on top.
Nidoking - Can set up whatever he wants, physical versions will hurt Chansey a lot
Nidoqueen - See Nidoking
Omastar - Chansey can wall pretty much all offensive sets, but can do nothing to stop him setting up hazards
Raikou* - Good check to Raikou, the only real set that beats her would be the Cro set, which is very rare due to its crappy coverage and the fact Dugtrio laughs at it.
Regirock - STAB Stone Edge will hurt Chansey a lot, not to mention Explosion.
Registeel - Chansey can pretty much do nothing to it, while he can choose to blow up, set up Stealth Rock or Curse up in front of her
Rhyperior - lol
Rotom - Chansey will hate Trick, SubCharge can also beat her.
Sceptile - Chansey walls pure speicla sets well, but stuff like Mixed, SD, or SubSeeder will beat Chansey
Slowbro - Walled well by Chansey
Spiritomb* - Cro set will beat it, Chansey will hate Trick and Curse, and she can't really do much back to it. Otherwise, she's not too bad a counter.
Steelix - Can set up SR and phaze to his hearts content, and he can also blow up on her
Swellow - lol
Tangrowth - Can wall special versions, but cannot stand up to SD. Tangrowth can also Knock Off Chansey's Leftovers for major annoyance.
Torterra - lol
Toxicroak - Only walls the NP versions, Swords Dance completely rapes her.
Umbreon - Can Curse up in front her and Taunt her. Can also pass Wish with impunity.
Uxie - Can set up whatever he wants, and can also Trick Chansey for the lulz
Venusaur - See Sceptile
Weezing - Can Explode on her
So you see, Chansey can wall 9/54 Pokemon in the UU metagame with relatively ease (That's 1/6), and 5 of those 9 have their ways of beating her.
@shrang:
I dont want to quote because ppl dont want to read that twice lol, but i completely salute your post.
Anyways...I've been gone from shoddy/smogon (thanks to heartgold haha) and i came back seeing the exact same playing style..Set up spikes, sweep with moltres/raikou...Also keeping a rapid spinner and a cleric. This strategy has been really effective lol just very annoying to see over and over again.
Also I saw an awesome strategy that worked effectively. Bulky Cleric Mismagius from Moqca..
I dont want to quote because ppl dont want to read that twice lol, but i completely salute your post.
Anyways...I've been gone from shoddy/smogon (thanks to heartgold haha) and i came back seeing the exact same playing style..Set up spikes, sweep with moltres/raikou...Also keeping a rapid spinner and a cleric. This strategy has been really effective lol just very annoying to see over and over again.
Also I saw an awesome strategy that worked effectively. Bulky Cleric Mismagius from Moqca..
I think I should say again that I do not think Chansey is suspect but I think Chansey satisfies the defensive characteristic. The purpose of my original post wasn't to argue that Chansey should be BL, but to argue that the defensive characteristic as it is defined is flawed.
If you don't think 1/3 is significant compared to 1 then how much is significant? This would need some defining. Also there's nothing mentioned in the DC about "centralizing".
@shrang - perhaps, but then look again for example at Alakazam. The analysis page has the following sets for Alakazam:
Specs - 50% walled by Chansey, since the only way Alakazam beats Chansey is by getting Trick off.
Scarf - 50% walled by Chansey (same as above).
Substitute + Encore - walled by Chansey. You can't Encore Toxic and then avoid it with Sub, and will probably end up Encoring Seismic Toss.
Dual Screen - this one's a bit iffy. Strictly speaking it's "walled" or can be "stalled out" by Chansey because it can't kill Chansey. However, of course Chansey is ineffective against this set for obvious reasons (not "walled" by Chansey, if we bend the meaning of "wall").
Substitute + Calm Mind - 100% walled by Chansey.
Offensive Calm Mind - 100% walled by Chansey.
(100% x3 + 50% x2 + 0%) / 6 = 66.6% walled by Chansey. For sure Alakazam can beat Chansey, but it's still (for most part) walled by Chansey. By the way when you mention things like "can set up whatever it wants" then to be fair Chansey can also "set up whatever it wants" like Aromatherapy, Stealth Rock or Wish. I haven't counted, but I think Chansey should be able to "wall" 1/3 of the metagame's Pokemon. Question then is whether or not 1/3 is "significant", which I think it is.
And I'll say this again: I do not think Chansey is suspect but I think Chansey satisfies the defensive characteristic. The purpose of my original post wasn't to argue that Chansey should be BL, but to argue that the defensive characteristic as it is defined is flawed.
Also I'll point out (as capefeather first pointed out) that Swellow satisfies the offensive characteristic:
Offensive Characteristic said:
I just went through the RMT forum and picked up the first few UU teams - this and this.
Now the first team has Registeel, Donphan, Lanturn, Moltres, Swellow and Scyther. Swellow sweeps through Lanturn, Moltres, itself (it has to, however the result turns out) and Scyther. It can't sweep through Registeel and Donphan, but it can sweep the remaining 4. Or if you don't count the mirror match with itself, it still sweeps 3/6 of the Pokemon on the team. That's "a significant portion of teams".
Then the second team has Claydol, Hitmontop, Chansey, Dugtrio, Moltres and Shedinja. Swellow sweeps Claydol, Hitmontop (if it hasn't suffered too many Intimidates), Chansey, Dugtrio and Moltres for 5/6 of the team, which is again "a significant portion of teams".
And again I'll say that I do not think Swellow is BL but given the definition of the offensive characteristic I think Swellow satisfies the offensive characteristic.
PS: Actually come to think of it the OC says "capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame", which may or may not mean "capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams". It could mean "capable of sweeping through a significant portion of the 6 Pokemon that can be found in a team in the metagame", or it could mean "capable of sweeping through a significant portion of the metagame's teams". Seems rather vague to me.
You are contradicting yourself there. If a Pokemon/Item/Whatever satisfies any of the Characteristics, then it is BL/Uber. If they are BL/Uber, then they would have gone through the Suspect process, thus, it is or was a Suspect (Unless you have stuff like Kyogre who is clearly Uber).
Anyway, onto your other points:
Specs Focus Blast has a high chance of 2HKOing Chansey with SR up (Although you can argue over FB's shitty accuracy), along with the option to Trick. Not being able to switch into 50% of a Pokemon's moveset pretty much means the thing is not a good counter. Sub/CM Kazam can beat Chansey, as a +1 Focus Blast 2HKOs after SR (Just like Specs), if you come into Sub or CM, he can beat you. Offensive CM Kazam will again, 2HKO Chansey with Focus Blast, this time without the need of SR if he has Life Orb.
That doesn't tell us anything. You can't just go to the RMT forum and go "Pokemon X rapes a major part of that team, therefore it's BL/Uber". That is just like saying Gyarados can sweep a team consisting of Infernape, Tyranitar, Rotom-H, Latias, Swampert, Breloom. Sure, will Rotom-H and maybe Swampert can stop Gyara, he can potentially kill the rest after a DD, and therefore he is Uber because he can beat 4/6 Pokemon on that team. The fact that Registeel on the first team completely stops Swellow means he is not going to sweep that team without Dugtrio/Magneton/Whatever support, which means he does not fulfill the 2nd part of the Offensive Characteristic, which sweeping a large portion of the metagame with little to no support.
Yeah. Seems like you wouldn't want to outright use Charizard as a simple special sweeper when Moltres is around...
No freaking way.
Blaziken actually has the stats to pull of the wall breaking. Sure he may be slower but to honestly state that Charizard and Magmortar are superior... If this is actually true then my day got a whole lot worse...
Yup. I think we should find a sweetspot around this set. (A perfect set for Sceptile)
I have a horrible time getting torterra switched in on something to force it to get an RP up... and then usually have to rely on stone edge to actually hit the next turn because altaria/moltres/ect are usually coming in on it. but if i can get the RP up something (usually 2 things) are coming down with it. I found LO + adamant is needed recoil be damned. leftovers or yache version just don't seem to hit hard enough
what are you switching it in on? registeel is like a free switch to me most of the time (only toxic fucks it up which most don't seem to have) but they have just been exploding right off the bat which ruins any fun.
@ Banedon:
The OC and DC (and even SC) will always be flawed until you realize that they are not laws, they are guidelines. You can pull up however many teams you want and say "looooooooook it beats 5/6", but if it doesn't satisfy the subjective aspects of the characteristic it still won't become a suspect.
And even I gave you the benefit of the doubt about Chansey, you have to realize that using Chansey is a huge liability against many teams, especially if you rely on it for setting up Stealth Rock.
And when we talk about "setting up", if you want to argue that Chansey's "setting up" Stealth Rock = (for example) Absol's setting up Swords Dance, or even Omastar setting up Stealth Rock + Spikes, then you can go ahead but there really isn't much to say.
tl;dr: The characteristics are guidelines not laws.
No they aren't better; neither one has the absolutely impossible-to-switch-into trait that Blaziken has. Magmortar is close, but Stealth Rock and Spikes eat it alive and it has no utility (aka Vacuum Wave). I was simply saying that they should be compared to Blaziken rather than Moltres.
The OC and DC (and even SC) will always be flawed until you realize that they are not laws, they are guidelines. You can pull up however many teams you want and say "looooooooook it beats 5/6", but if it doesn't satisfy the subjective aspects of the characteristic it still won't become a suspect.
And even I gave you the benefit of the doubt about Chansey, you have to realize that using Chansey is a huge liability against many teams, especially if you rely on it for setting up Stealth Rock.
And when we talk about "setting up", if you want to argue that Chansey's "setting up" Stealth Rock = (for example) Absol's setting up Swords Dance, or even Omastar setting up Stealth Rock + Spikes, then you can go ahead but there really isn't much to say.
tl;dr: The characteristics are guidelines not laws.
PK Gaming said:
No they aren't better; neither one has the absolutely impossible-to-switch-into trait that Blaziken has. Magmortar is close, but Stealth Rock and Spikes eat it alive and it has no utility (aka Vacuum Wave). I was simply saying that they should be compared to Blaziken rather than Moltres.
Well I've only used Torterra for a handful of matches, but the two Registeels I personally encountered didn't have Explosion, or at least didn't use it. Must just be my luck, but then again my luck was rather good back then. If I used Torterra this week, they would probably all be exploding on me lol (it has been a horrid week of bad luck for me btw).
Adamant is definitely needed IMO yes, but I didn't use LO, I used Expert Belt instead. Torterra hits the vast majority of Pokemon super-effectively, and I found that it makes very little difference most of the time while you don't waste the nice bulk as much. Don't use Stone Edge either, it ain't worth that much risk for the most part. Use Rock Slide instead. Moltres, Swellow, Scyther etc are still OHKO'd, Altaria might survive but rarely threatens as much and is still 2HKO'd, whilst you get more accuracy and a nice flinch rate that can sometimes get you out of bad situations. The biggest drawback here is that you need to make sure BulkyLass is at <60% when it comes in, but that is quite easy to achieve with both SR + Spikes up and you should always be aiming to do that before attempting a sweep anyway.
As for setup opportunities, there are plenty of Pokemon that offer that besides Registeel, but it is often better to scout then bait the right Pokemon to sacrifice against. Registeel is good for baiting any Dugtrios for example, just make sure you only weaken it and not kill it if possible. CB Rhyperior as well in this case.
What EVs do you use on it? I personally think max speed is a waste, and only run enough to beat Jolly RP Rhyperior just in case I need to revenge it without setup, which also beats neutral base 80 scarfers. Base 85-90s are rare enough in the metagame as it is, never mind neutral scarf variants. My favorite spread is 16 HP / 252 Atk / 44 SpD / 196 Spe Adamant.
They sure look like laws to me - look again at the offensive characteristic:
A Pokémon is BL if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.
This reads very much like a definition (compare one from mathematics, if you want). It's essentially saying that a Pokemon is BL, no ifs or buts, if it satisfies [insert the rest of the offensive characteristic]. In fact they look so much like laws that shrang assumed in his post that if something satisfies the defensive characteristic then it is BL.
shrang said:
Look again at the offensive characteristic - it doesn't say you have to sweep a large portion of the metagame, it says you have to sweep "a significant portion of teams in the metagame". The first doesn't imply the second, nor vice versa; they can carry very different meanings. Also neither does it say "little or no support", it says "little effort".
I very much think that when it comes to definitions and laws, it pays to use precise language. If the characteristics are not meant to be laws, then perhaps the presentation should be changed (right now it says "criteria", too).
PS: Maybe I should move this to Policy Review or something?
If this is a definition, it's a very poorly defined one as far as a mathematical definition is concerned... and that's the point. Yes, perhaps "significant" is a very misleading term, but I think you're presenting all this in the wrong way if that's all you have issue with.
That is specifically why the word "Significant" is there. It's vague and allows for interpretation on a case by case basis.
Nidoking is one of the better if not the better targets for SD passing. Being immune to 2 kinds of status and having decent atk (great with Rivalry) and speed, and also a priority attack. You can't go wrong with Nido.
But without Rivalry (most say it's unreliable), Nidoking isn't that strong. Special sets relies on the excellent coverage, but lacks real power. And then the only decent speed becomes a hindrance.
Yes, i would use it if i want a team with BP options (Leafeon?), but i can see it struggling for a space on a balanced/offensive team.
Oh: it makes a fine lead.
But without Rivalry (most say it's unreliable), Nidoking isn't that strong. Special sets relies on the excellent coverage, but lacks real power. And then the only decent speed becomes a hindrance.
Yes, i would use it if i want a team with BP options (Leafeon?), but i can see it struggling for a space on a balanced/offensive team.
Oh: it makes a fine lead.
I'd forgotten that Nidoking gets Super Fang now. I wonder about its utility, though. Both mixed and physical sets need all four moveslots for coverage moves pretty badly, and Nidoking really wants to KO the opponent before the opponent KOs him. Sucker Punch is pretty great on physical sets, though.
I use Nidoking as a wall-breaker like he is supposed to be, because of his great movepool, which means great coverage, decent speed, decent attacking stats, and what separates him most from Blaziken, immunity to both Thunder Wave and Toxic. These immunities allow Nidoking to come in on pretty much every wall there is and nail them or the switch-in. Sure, its attacking stats are decent at best, but it's a wall-breaker: it switches in, hits the opponent, switches out. Then it comes back in, hits the opponent, and switches out. Unless you make a serious misprediction and run into an Explosion or whatever, Nidoking should have plenty of health when it switches back in. It is not outclassed by Blaziken at all, it has better speed and better coverage.
@PK Gaming, the Charizard was used with no team support (I threw it on a team in which I was testing various special sweepers who could get past Chansey). The EVs were: Timid, enough EVs to outrun +base 95s, enough in HP to be divisable by 4, rest into SDEF. With this, Charizard could come in on something it's immune to or after something dies and take 50% from Stealth Rock, Sunny Day on the switch to a Milotic, Solarbeam as it Surfs (surviving the Surf and activating Petaya Berry) and then finishing it off with another Solarbeam or Fire Blast, at which point it handily sweeps any team without priority or a Chansey. I stopped using it mostly because pretty much every team does have priority...although with spin support you could just use it as a hard hitting special attacker until their priority users die.
What's Rivalry do against ungendered opponents? If it simply does nothing instead of nerfing attack, then Rivalry is one heck of a power against pretty much everyone (except me, because I make sure that my pokes are female so they don't go chasin' the ladies).
Oy vey....Apparently using Encore is a cheap tactic and makes me an ass of a player. :|
Anyways, I've been using a Nasty Plot/Hypnosis Spiritomb mainly for shits and giggles but it surprised me at how decent it was. Pairs well with Tauros and RP Torterra for some odd reason, and that's half my team right there.
Anyways, I've been using a Nasty Plot/Hypnosis Spiritomb mainly for shits and giggles but it surprised me at how decent it was. Pairs well with Tauros and RP Torterra for some odd reason, and that's half my team right there.
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