Dragonite (Update)

On the bulky Dragon Dance set, I'm wondering if Yache Berry is worth slashing in as an item choice, seeing that even Timid Starmie's Life Orb Ice Beam does 58.5% - 68.9% after Yache Berry, allowing Dragonite to continue sweeping.
 
Bumping this. Made a few changes to the OP in skeleton sections because of Mences ban. However, the consensus will still remain that Dragonite is not a mence replacement and that will be emphasized in the actual analysis. Also, would like an opinion on Agility set, and will be adding another set on here for tests.
 
You know what, the Agility set is fine. I can see it giving offensive teams a lot of trouble in theory.

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This update is very very important now that Mence is banned, RL, I'm looking forward to you writing this, because I know you'll do a good job.
 
Will do. Going to give it my all. Also, this is a set that I have always been interested in ever since Tinkerbell Celebi was popular:

Dragonite (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 224 HP/52 Spd/232 SAtk
Modest nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Draco Meteor
- Flamethrower / Fire Blast
- Thunder Wave
- Roost
---

Dragonite has relatively the same defensive stats, less weaknesses and better type coverage with a higher power secondary attack. I mainly can see this being useful with Breloom around now. Will work on testing this some before actually contemplating adding this.
 
Actually, I have an idea for the Agility set. For the last slot, I find Thunderbolt to be a worthy move to consider. Stuff like RestTalk Gyarados can just come in and Intimidate you as you Agility up, and Roar you out, forcing you to take more SR damage. Thunderbolt OHKOs Gyarados like 90% of the time, and still allows you to 2HKO Skarm with a Lonely/Naughty nature.
 
I'd like you to, when the time comes, emphasize this Pokemon's similarities to Gyarados rather than stuff like Flygon. At this point, Gyarados is Dragonite's biggest competition, and it's likely to stay that way for a good long time.
 
RaikouLover said:
Will do. Going to give it my all. Also, this is a set that I have always been interested in ever since Tinkerbell Celebi was popular:

Dragonite (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 224 HP/52 Spd/232 SAtk
Modest nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Draco Meteor
- Flamethrower / Fire Blast
- Thunder Wave
- Roost
---

Dragonite has relatively the same defensive stats, less weaknesses and better type coverage with a higher power secondary attack. I mainly can see this being useful with Breloom around now. Will work on testing this some before actually contemplating adding this.
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I remember you showing me this set before you left awhile ago and I used it for a long time. It can be very good and may not be. It has trouble switching in but other than that it is very dangerous. TankNite I think you called it? It definitely deserves to be considered as a set.

@SDS: I'd think of Gyarados more as a partner in crime than competition. Both have very different counters and rather different moves, besides of course Dragon Dance. Dragonite can go mix, Gyarados cannot. Dragonite has Roost, Gyarados does not, etc. etc. I don't really think you need to compare or contrast them.
 
Dragonite needs to be compared to Gyarados as much as it needs to be compared to mence. Each has pros and cons, but they largely have similar stats, similar builds, and on teams where you *don't* want to double up on similar Pokemon, it's important to talk about the difference between them.

Dragonite:
More natural physical bulk
More attack
Mixed options
Roost
"Better" STAB

Gyarados:
Intimidate
Taunt
Bullet Punch resistance
Weakness to less common move types
Easier to set up
 
lum berry probably deserves a mention in the comments for the dd sets; it serves roughly the same role that lum berry served on ddmence (setup on twave/wow in the late-game or block outrage confusion once), except dragonite has an even easier time setting up on defensive rotom.
 
Dragonite needs to be compared to Gyarados as much as it needs to be compared to mence. Each has pros and cons, but they largely have similar stats, similar builds, and on teams where you *don't* want to double up on similar Pokemon, it's important to talk about the difference between them.

Dragonite:
More natural physical bulk
More attack
Mixed options
Roost
"Better" STAB

Gyarados:
Intimidate
Taunt
Bullet Punch resistance
Weakness to less common move types
Easier to set up
Click to expand...
Ehh I don't really think I will drawing too many comparisons to the two because they have completely different typing and roles. You HAD to compare Salamence and Dragonite because they had (mostly) the same movepool, same base attack, same typing, same base stat total (Gyarados is lacking comparatively speaking at 540). The only difference between the two were Dragonite's seemly irrelevant broader movepool, their abilities, and Salamences undeniably more favorable stat distribution.

@ Whistle, will do. Which set tho? Pure offensive with Lum Berry seems kinda stupid since at that point your better off using Bulk Dragon Dance with Lum Berry (roughly the same power output as its Adamant vs. Jolly). Jolly nature I still won't make the main option on Offensive, since Adamant really is needed. Though Jolly outspeeds Jolteon and ScarfHeatran, so it will definately get its mention.
 
They're both bulky offensive dragon dancers. They have similar resistances, similar roles, similar playstyles, and similar stats. Pointing at the BST means very little considering that the majority of the BST difference comes from the disparity in their Special Attack stats, which can basically be summed up by "dragonite can go mixed".

Either way, the two compete for a similar team spot, and the comparison must be drawn, just like how the comparison is drawn between Salamence and Gyarados when referring to offensive Dragon Dance users.
 
As for what's in the OP:

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@RaikouLover: With regard to the last set you wrote, I'll wait for your own results before considering to try it out. But I can say from now that it doesn't look bad.
 
Why are 252 Spe EVs reccomended on CB Nite & Offensive Nite (Adamant as primary option)?

Adamant DD Nite is outspeeding literally nothing extra of use with 252 Spe Evs than it does with 204 Evs. 52HP / 252Atk / 204Spe would be more efficient wouldn't it? Jolly DD Nite can use 252 get the jump on Scarf Heatran among other things so it can still be mentioned, but if Adamant is staying as the primary option then I think my spread is better. 204 Spe keeps it above Jolly Lucario & 308 Jirachi etc.

I'm also fairly certain that the CB set should follow the same route of having 52HP / 252Atk / 204Spe as this keeps it above the defensive base 100s and those that aim to outspeed. Once again nothing of use is outsped with 252 other than Mamoswine....getting murdered with Ice shard anyway and Mamoswine is jolly alot of the time. Togekiss is getting beat by priority. All it really helps with is other Dragonite which is meh at best.
 
Initially I thought the same thing, but then I was thinking about the issue of speed creep. You can theoretically go down to that spread but then you start playing the Defensive Celebi / Zapdos / Tentacruel running 245 speed then 246 and you running 247. I figured since it is an offensive set, your better off just maxing it out. As for Offensive Dragon Dance, you HAVE to max speed with using Adamant so that you can outspeed Weavile after a Dragon Dance and OHKO with +1 Extremespeed before it Ice Shards you. That requires 240 EVs, which at that point your better off maxing since 12 leftover EVs in HP makes Dragonite's HP 326, which is not odd (bad for SR and LO).

I mean I'm all ears to what the consensus is, but I don't think anyone will object to Choice Band and Offense Dragon Dance just maxing speed. I can see it being significant on Mixnite, where those extra 52 EVs can go into the other attack stat, but other than that I think we are good.

Also, for Tanknite, I have yet to put together a team to test it, so I will just exclude it from this analysis. I will bring it before QC at a latter date if I feel inclined to pursue testing and proposing it, lol.

Yache Berry is worth slashing in as an item choice,
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I'm going to leave Leftovers / Life Orb as the main options to keep it neat. Will definately list in additional comments along with Lum Berry, thanks.
 
re: rl's question to me a few posts ago

judging from your set comments i think we have a slightly different approach to playing dnite's dd sets. i used dragonite mostly as a late game sweeper so lum came in handy for setting up on pokmon like rotom and non ice beam bliss once you've scouted all their remaining members and weakened them all sufficiently. i used only jolly max speed (so i don't have experience w/ the other spreads) to be faster than various pokmon (scarftran, jolt, etc) due to how i played it. but i can see lum being useful on both sets...
 
Jolly Max Speed only outspeeds 3 pokemon that Adamant can't after a Dragon Dance. Jolteon (Extremespeed beats at +1), Scarftran (usually dead or blown up lategame anyawy), and Aerodactyl (hasn't risen to fame yet). I'm not saying those three aren't useful, its just Dragonite will get more mileage with an Adamant nature always (not to mention much more bonus stat points).
 
I'm not sure about this, but shouldn't most (if not all) mentions of, and comparisons to, Salamence be omitted from the Updated analysis? I mean with Salamence being Uber and all.
 
to clarify, i wasn't saying that you should change the set to jolly; i just like it because i wanted the coverage of both fire punch and earthquake so i couldn't use extremespeed and i found that heatran is alive too much late-game (also jolly lets me revenge non scarf before dd). i mentioned the set i was using as a way to say that i don't have experience with lum berry on its other sets, so i can't be sure of how well it works despite theorymon.
 
Oh ok. Well if the last QC member would approve it :), then I can get to actually putting in all the comments.

@whistle, I was going to explain that jolly is certainly great with Outrage / Earthquake / Fire Punch which is "classic Dragon Dance" on the Offensive set. The Extremespeed / Dragon Claw / Steel kill move is very good with Adamant. Both obviously have pros and cons and will get their share of commentary. As for Lum, I can see it being useful more on Bulky since if you are going all out offensive its probably better just to DD on the switch and go for blood.

I'm not sure about this, but shouldn't most (if not all) mentions of, and comparisons to, Salamence be omitted from the Updated analysis? I mean with Salamence being Uber and all.
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Direct comparisons yes I will have to remove. But can still make general comparisons like "Dragonite has been overshadowed as a slower Salamence the past two gens, etc" and all that jazz.
 
I need one or more QC members to review the information that's in the OP of this thread. It's been a while already. Thank you :)
 
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