OU CCAT: Nidoking Edition

Finally, it's time to vote on the proposed changes to our team! Thank you all who have participated in this process!

For reference the full team can be viewed here

Re-Cap of the Team

• LO Sheer Force Nidoking - impeccable power and coverage!!!
• SD Virizion - exploits special walls that counter Nidoking to sweep
• Bulky Rotom-W - provides much needed bulk and paralysis support
• Specially Defensive Jirachi - sponges special hits for the team, heals the team with Wish, and more paralysis
• LO Sub Split Gengar - combines force with Nidoking, wearing down special walls for Nidoking or Gengar to sweep late game
• Scarf Terrakion - Revenge Killer; our "answer" to Sun teams and HO

Big Flaws that Sink this Team

• Haxorus - Nothing can safely take an EQ / Outrage.
• Chlorophyll Sweepers - Nothing can stomach Grass / Fire combo after Growth
• SD Scizor - Very few mons enjoy taking a +2 Bullet Punch, and those that could (Rotom-W and Jirachi) can't really cripple it effectively

THE BALLOT​

• BTzz
  ~ Bulky Gyarados > Rotom-W
• DetroitLolcat
  ~ Ferrothorn > Jirachi
  ~ SD Scizor > Virizion
  ~ Will-O-Wisp on Rotom-W
• Drifloon
  ~ Tinkerbell Celebi > Virizion
• ginganinja
  ~ Bulky Gyarados > Rotom-W
  ~ Bulk Up Breloom > Virizion
  ~ Reflect CM Latias > Gengar
• Myzozoa
  ~ Tyranitar > Virizion
  ~ Scarf Landorus > Scarf Terrakion
  ~ Ferrothorn > Jirachi
  ~ Will-O-Wisp on Rotom-W
• Pocket
  ~ Lum Berry on Virizion
  ~ Bulky Gyarados > Rotom-W
• skidilidy
  ~ Tinkerbell Celebi > Virzion
  ~ Adamant > Jolly Scarf Terrakion
  ~ Jirachi w/ Body Slam, Fire Punch, Stealth Rock, Iron Head / Wish
• Tomahawk9
  ~ Scarf Jirachi > Specially Defensive Jirachi
  ~ Chansey > Scarf Terrakion
• Tomahawk9 Revisited, 2
  ~ Scarf Jirachi > Specially Defensive Jirachi
  ~ Chansey > Scarf Terrakion
  ~ Bulky Gyarados > Rotom-W
  ~ Lum on Virizion
• NO CHANGE

• Nidoking - Fire Blast or Flamethrower?
• Virizion - Life Orb or Lum Berry?
• Virizion - Stone Edge or Hidden Power Ice?
• Rotom-W - T-Wave or Will-O-Wisp?
• Jirachi - Stealth Rock, Fire Punch, or U-turn?
• Terrakion - Rock Slide or Earthquake?

I'll count the votes by the end of this weekend, so submit your votes by then!

ginganinja

Nidoking - Fire Blast or Flamethrower?
Jirachi - Stealth Rock, Fire Punch, or U-turn?
Terrakion - Rock Slide or Earthquake?

Boy, this thread sure has died.

(how shameless of me)

DetroitLolcat

SMALL CHANGES:
Nidoking - Fire Blast or Flamethrower?
Rotom-W - T-Wave or Will-O-Wisp?
Terrakion - Rock Slide or Earthquake?

Tomahawk9 revisited, 2

Fire Blast on Nidoking
Stone Edge on Virizion

Don't feel comfortable voting for myself (tho I would if I had to choose)

Other Changes

Nidoking - Fire Blast or Flamethrower?
Jirachi - Stealth Rock, Fire Punch, or U-turn?
Terrakion - Rock Slide or Earthquake?

A little late for this so ignore it if you'd like. Just my thoughts:

Rotom-W: add will o' wisp, t-wave is silly, jirachi should handle the paralyze part.

Jirachi: Ironhead, Stealth Rock, Wish, Bodyslam. Wish can reliably heal rotom-w.

It should be noted that Ferrothorn is a huge threat to the team. I would also mention that Tyranitar can kill many of the special walls that stop Nidoking from sweeping and it also has access to pursuit and stealth rocks, it is also much bulkier than Virizion. Adding Tyranitar would also facilitate Landorus replacing Terrakion as a revenge killer. It may be viable to put thunderwave/will o' wisp on Gengar and give it leftovers as well if more status is needed.

Myzozoa, I am not too certain that Tyranitar would really help this team. Removing Virizion makes this team much more vulnerable to Rain (we still have Rotom-W, but its not specially defensive), and I don't think the standard TTar (you mentioned SR) does a good job at breaking past special walls such as Chansey, Blissey, or Gastrodon. Removing Virizion for TTar also makes our team even more vulnerable to Sand, imo. Gengar does not get T-Wave, but it does get Will-O-Wisp...

Thank you for sharing your thoughts, though! I will put your nom up on the ballot. Feel free to clarify your post for a more accurate picture of your nomination.

I agree that Tyranitar definitely contributes to a rain weakness, no arguments there. But Virizion isn't going to last long if Tentacruel get's up toxic spikes, even with Nidoking absorbing them, which it easily sets-up on Jirachi or Terrakion locked into Close Combat.

My main changes would be:

1. Virizion->Tyranitar, it's true that Blissey and Chansey will probably not be broken by Tyranitar unless they mispredict, and it has an even harder time with Gastrodon. However those pokemon are much less common than Latias and Latios, both of whom can easily get in on several of the team members. They are currently handled only by Jirachi. Consider one thing: how likely is it that Chansey or Blissey will stay in on Virizion to be KOed? I think it's more likely that you'll be able to cause a mispredict with Tyranitar.

2. Rotom-W needs WOW much more than it needs T-wave, it can't threaten SD Scizor (the biggest threat to this team when Jirachi doesn't run Fire Punch) without it.

3. Landorus over Terrakion. In addition to the boost it would get from the hypothetical Tyranitar's Sandstream, it has U-turn to help you find chances to get Nidoking in. Gengar already theoretically handles any Lucario difficulties.

4. Ferrothorn. Water Resist and leech seed, or complete hazard support. It has semi-complementary typing with Rotom-W. Together with Nidoking, they can make a surprisingly complete resistance core. I don't know where I would put it, but I think it's a good choice as Gengar does limited spin-blocking.

What my team would look like:

Standard Tyranitar
Ferrothorn
Rotom-W with WOW
Nidoking
Landorus/Terrakion
Gengar

Thanks, Myzozoa, I updated the ballot post. Need more votes, guys!

ginganinja
~ Bulky Gyarados > Rotom-W
~ Bulk Up Breloom > Virizion
~ Reflect CM Latias > Gengar

1. Nidoking - Fire Blast or Flamethrower?
2. Rotom-W - T-Wave or Will-O-Wisp?
3. Jirachi - Stealth Rock, Fire Punch, or U-turn?
4. Terrakion - Rock Slide or Earthquake?

Agree with ginganinja, but i guess Rotom-W is much better than Bulky Gyarados as it's both offensive and defensive, and can spread burns with Will-O-Wisp to cripple phisical attackers which try to kill Specially Defensive Jirachi. On Nidoking, Fire Blast is way stronger, and the Accuracy downfall isn't that problem. Nidoking also likes Stealth Rock on the opponent's field, as can put many poke in a KO range, and also break Focus Sashes. For Terrakion, Earthquake is better. Rock Slide doesn't have so much accuracy (only 10% more than Stone Edge), and EQ gives a nice coverage

Friendly reminder - 1 more day to vote, before finalizing this team!

Ginganinja.



Nidoking - Fire Blast or Flamethrower?
Rotom-W - T-Wave or Will-O-Wisp?
Jirachi - Stealth Rock, Fire Punch, or U-turn?
Terrakion - Rock Slide or Earthquake?

PS: Needs more ChestoRest Rotom-W.

ginganinja

Nidoking - Fire Blast or Flamethrower
Jirachi - Stealth Rock, Fire Punch, or U-turn
Terrakion - Rock Slide or Earthquake

Thank you, ginganinja, for providing the changes that the clear majority agrees on! Thank you all who have participated in this penultimate phase, as well! You may check the OP of this thread for the full-team info, but here's


RMT WIP Phase
Since we want this to be a top notch RMT - we're going all-out! There are a few things that I'd like you guys to help me collect for our RMT:

• Log Replays - We want to show this team in action, so people can understand how this team works and the power of Nidoking. If you guys had an awesome match reflecting the goodness of Nidoking, plz send it through aesoft's replay viewerhttp://pokemon.aesoft.org/ and post it here! You'll be credited for the match of course ;)
• Conquest of BW OU Ladder - Provide ladder peaks & ranking (with visual proof) while we spend the next week or two writing up this RMT. We will acknowledge the most successful ladder player with his or her visual proof and name posted on the RMT. Lower ladder rankings will also be acknowledged in the RMT forum if they are high enough.
• Pinpoint Threats - While testing this team on PO, please note any weak points you have discovered on this thread. We will list the problems to this team on the RMT to receive more focused rates and suggestions.
• Report any Team Modifications - Please post any adjustments in EVs, moves, or even Pokemon that you've made to this team to help improve its performance. We will mention such possible changes in our RMT.

Those are the top items that I ask you guys to help collect for our project. There is also the actual composition of the RMT thread that I will be ultra thankful if any of you guys could lend a hand. I would write the intro and conclusion, but if anyone would want to take on the Teambuilding Process, description of individual Pokemon and each respective set, or even offer good pics or layout for the RMT (I'm not well-oriented with any art app :/), that would be super awesome!

So if you guys could get me the items listed above in the next ~2 weeks, that would be amazing! I will be laddering myself and start writing up this RMT, which I will post on the nearest weekend for maximum views ;d. If you are willing to help me with the composition of the RMT thread, please post here or send me a PM or a VM :D

Let's end this with a bang - I'll be eagerly waiting for any feedback and success stories you guys will have for this team. Let's have fun!

Just saying, if we are going to use Gyarados, the team really wants a spinner. With Gyarados being a key defensive Pokemon, we want him to stay alive long. With no for of recovery outside of Leftovers and SR damage, Gyara will not be able to do his job for long.

In the OP, you have made a mistake about Brelloom's evs. You have written Spd instead of SpD, which can easily be mistaken as Speed.

Also by a simple look you can tell that fast Deoxys-D, rapes this team, easily setting up on anything 'till it gets SR and 3 layers of Spikes. Then have fun. I can't think off any possible solution as of now, but if i do i will inform you.

Thanks, fixed the OP.

Gyarados can certainly work with Wish support, I've done it before without Rapid Spin support. It really likes Rain support to negate sandstream, though, since Leftovers recovery is its life-line.

Yea, losing Gengar for Latias certainly resulted in a drastic reduction in fire power, but we'll see.

Wow, ginganinja, I'm really liking how this team is flowing! Here's an alright battle I had today that shows how the team works. It mainly show cases the solid defensive core of Breloom, Gyarados, Jirachi, and Latias, but still.

Sorry my log replay is old:
Our team: Nidoking, Breloom, Gyarados, Jirachi, Latias, Terrakion
Opp's team: Landorus, Terrakion, Tyranitar, Rotom-W, Forretress, Alakazam
battle replay #1

Also I learned how to paint & photobucket lol:

That Latias wants a 252 HP / 228 Def / 28 Spe Bold EV spread. I know max Speed and Timid lets you outspeed stuff like Infernape and Terrakion, but quite honestly the bulk is much more useful. Reflect is there to combat Scizor and Tyranitar, and that isn't half as easy without that much physical bulk. Let's take a look at some calculations:

Choice Band Scizor
252Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor (+Atk) U-turn vs 252HP/0Def Leftovers Levitate Latias (Neutral): 112% - 133% (410 - 486 HP). Guaranteed OHKO.
252Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor (+Atk) U-turn vs 252HP/0Def Levitate Latias (Neutral) behind a Reflect: 56% - 67% (206 - 246 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

252Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor (+Atk) U-turn vs 252HP/228Def Leftovers Levitate Latias (+Def): 81% - 96% (296 - 350 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
252Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor (+Atk) U-turn vs 252HP/228Def Leftovers Levitate Latias (+Def) behind a Reflect: 41% - 48% (150 - 176 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.

Well, this makes quite a difference. If Reflect isn't up, by some mispredict perhaps (Reflecting every time Latias switches in is easy to abuse), Latias is easily KOed with the fast spread, while the bulky spread takes the U-turn without a chance of being KOed (not assuming residual damage of course). Most importantly though, is not being 2HKOed under Reflect. What does this matter; U-turn makes you switch out after all, right? Yes, but still not being 2HKOed is a huge advantage. With the fast spread, the opponent can just U-turn and switch to Scizor right after. Recover only has half the PP of U-turn, meaning Scizor can just U-turn and U-turn without Latias being able to do something because it has to Recover every time to not get KOed. Bulky Latias doesn't have this problem.

Swords Dance Scizor
252Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor (+Atk) Bug Bite vs 252HP/0Def Leftovers Levitate Latias (Neutral) behind a Reflect: 62% - 74% (228 - 272 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

252Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor (+Atk) Bug Bite vs 252HP/228Def Leftovers Levitate Latias (+Def) behind a Reflect: 45% - 54% (164 - 198 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 4% chance to 2HKO with Leftovers.

I think the advantage here is pretty obvious. Not being 2HKOed by Life Orb Scizor's Bug Bite is really helpful, as now you can try to beat it. Though, Dragon Pulse doesn't do a whole lot, but it's still useful in a pinch.

Choice Scarf Tyranitar
252Atk Tyranitar (Neutral) Crunch vs 252HP/0Def Leftovers Levitate Latias (Neutral): 80% - 95% (294 - 348 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
252Atk Tyranitar (Neutral) Crunch vs 252HP/0Def Leftovers Levitate Latias (Neutral) behind a Reflect: 41% - 48% (150 - 176 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.

252Atk Tyranitar (Neutral) Crunch vs 252HP/228Def Leftovers Levitate Latias (+Def): 58% - 69% (212 - 252 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
252Atk Tyranitar (Neutral) Crunch vs 252HP/228Def Leftovers Levitate Latias (+Def) behind a Reflect: 29% - 35% (108 - 128 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO.

Fast Latias loses to Scarf Tyranitar, bulky Latias beats it. It's that simple. Let's say fast Latias is up against Scarf Tyranitar. Latias uses Reflect as Tyranitar Crunches, which does about 90%. Latias can now either stay in to get KOed by the following Crunch, or switch out and get taken down by Stealth Rock the next time it comes in. Sand also helps here. Bulky Latias, on the other hand, can take a Crunch, Reflect, and than live another Crunch behind the Reflect (although barely) and proceed to Recover up to high health.

Choice Band Tyranitar
252Atk Choice Band Tyranitar (+Atk) Crunch vs 252HP/0Def Leftovers Levitate Latias (Neutral) behind a Reflect: 65% - 78% (240 - 284 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

252Atk Choice Band Tyranitar (+Atk) Crunch vs 252HP/228Def Leftovers Levitate Latias (+Def) behind a Reflect: 47% - 56% (174 - 206 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 12% chance to 2HKO with Leftovers.

Quite a large difference here. The main difference: Latias can stall out Crunch with Recover if needed. Still, I wouldn't recommend trying it.


tl;dr: 252 HP / 228 Def / 28 Spe Bold please.