OU CCAT: Zoroark [See Post #663]

For White Socks (or whatever your name is) who said my Deoxys-D set made no sense - I want to correct you :)

It should make perfect sense if you read the description. If you used it it would also make perfect sense because it works. You Agility first (unless the opponent has nothing faster than you). Then you start setting up Cosmic Powers, Taunting anything which might try to status you, boost its own stats, heal etc. You win through Pressure stalling + entry hazards (especially Toxic Spikes). Sounds unreliable but from experience it sets up easily in 90% of games and just does huge amounts of damage. It gets checked by a couple of things, mainly Espeon, but offensive threats (even CB Scizor) don't worry it as long as it can set up a CP safely. If they switch they die from hazards and Toxic, if they don't they just get stalled out of PP. Crits don't matter from most threats either, so long as you're at full health even powerful crit attacks only do ~70% or so.

On the other hand I guess it might not be that fun to buid a team around, since it necessitates semi-stall / stall which we should all know is difficult to get creative with in this meta. I used Hippowdon / Tentacruel / Jellicent / Skarmory / Blissey / Deoxys-D for instance -__- which gets a bit tired.

Now other stuff:

Like I've said I like the idea of Heracross, but I'd prefer CB or something similar because like jc said Bulk Up is terrible. Why not take advantage of the fact that most teams (e.g. those without Gliscor) have no safe switchins for it, instead of trying pointlessly to set up only to be unfailingly outsped and revenge killed?

Another nomination idea:

Nidoqueen @ Leftovers, Sheer Force
252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpDef
-Toxic Spikes
-Flamethrower
-Ice Beam
-Earth Power / Earthquake

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Not sure how many other people have used this but it is really effective atm, especially for crushing the ubiquitous Tyranitar + VoltTurn rubbish. #1 reason to use it is its just about the best possible Terrakion counter, also kicks the crap out of Lucario / Scizor / Breloom etc. #2 is that it can lead safely first turn against sand teams - if they start with Tyranitar you get Toxic Spikes which the standard sand offense can't handle at all.

Other advantages: Ground type, which is just about necessary on stall teams for breaking down VoltTurn noobs. Compare to Tentacruel, the TSpiker giving it the most competition, which puts you at the mercy of Rotom-W whenever it switches in. Also an incredibly good check for so much other stuff like Dragonite. Because of Sheer Force she has the equivalent of 112 / 104 offensive stats which not only make her very hard to switch into for a lot of common team archetypes (Rotom-W is usually the only safe switch) but also stop most stuff from trying to set up (again compare to Tentacruel). Oh yeah and she does massive damage to every Toxic Spikes absorber in the game if they try to soak up your hard work.

Basically I think it would be nice to see teams other than rain stall using Toxic Spikes, and Nido does do a really nice job.

Dragonite @ Leftovers
Trait: Multiscale
EVs: 252 Atk/252 Hp/ 4 Def
Adamant Nature (+Atk -SpAtk)
-Dragon Tail
-Substitute
-Roost
-Extreme Speed

I'll shall be the first to admit, I'm a terrible competitive player. But this Dragonite and a few entry hazards as support actually work very well together. Send this fella when the opponent has a wall or a stall out and you get a free turn to set up a Substitute. From there you can just Dragon Tail your opponent while they attempt to break the Substitute. Extreme Speed is there for a pinch. I'm not running Speed EVs because I opted for more survivability and Dragon Tail has negative priority anyway. Roost is there to get some more HP when necessary. Dragon Tail+Residual damage from Stealth Rocks/Spikes is always fun. Also, most players expect a DDance Dragonite, so they will switch out an act accordingly, giving you a free turn or 2 to set up.

Honestly, I think the HP EVs could be switched for some Def/SpDef EVs, but as I've said before, I'm a terrible player. I don't really know the exact mechanics of the game nor have I run damage calculations. Oh and Hazard support is almost necessary. This could be the star Pokemon of a Entry Hazard team.

I hope this is an interesting enough set (considering I'm suggesting a Pokemon as popular as Dragonite), I haven't seen anybody but myself use something even similar to it.

(Druddigon) (M) @ Life Orb Trait: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Superpower
- Sucker Punch
- Outrage
- Fire Fang


This set is pretty solid, having good coverage and decently powered move along with deceptively notable bulk. Fire Fang with Sheer Force reach a pretty high power level, and Sucker punch can be used for revenge killing. Outrage is a deadly move for a Dragon type, and Drudiggon is no different. All of this turns it into a useful utility offensive pokemon that can fits itself in multitudes of team. With Paralysis or Trick Room support it can go past its low speed and become a dangerous cleaner

@jc:
I definitely see where you're coming from with wanting power from Heracross, wanting the ability to smash everything, but I didn't post one of the more agressive sets (CB, SD, etc.) because I disagree. Heracross has 85 base Speed and no priority whatsoever, meaning that it will very rarely achieve a straight-up sweep (although it's a monster to stall teams). I've found that with the SD set, I often set up an SD and have nowhere to go from there. A Sub + 3 attacks set I dislike as well, because very few things can switch into Heracross. While Heracross is revenged somewhat easily, his prediction on the switch-in is largely irrelevant. Either they're a counter who doesn't care, or a check who gets nuked regardless of what you use. I'm not a fan of starting a team with Choice sets, which is why I ignored those.

But perhaps "dislike" is too strong a word. I will honestly support Heracross no matter what set is proposed. Feel free to post your favorite, jc.

I posted the BU set because because I feel that it has the most variety to it. Against very slow teams, such as stall or slower balance teams, it has the potential to sweep should the opportunity arise. Admittedly, it cannot do this as well as the more offensive sets, but like I said, it's more varied. The BU set can also act as a tank like Swampert/Snorlax, relying on its great bulk and typing. It can actually handle itself pretty well as a check to Sand teams (better than other sets, which are OHKOed by Terrakion). I felt that it would be easier to keep it in the limelight no matter what, which I think I might've said in my original post.

Nonetheless, the flaws you mentioned are very real. And since the set can't be changed once it is decided upon, nominating a second one would seem wise. But I caution against splitting the Heracross vote, as he seems like a real contender. In any case, good points jc.



And now for some more of my opinions.
I hesitate about the Staraptor sets. I mean, Staraptor is incredible, but as I said a few lines up, I'm squeamish about starting teams with Choiced mons. But barring my own preferences, I think it would a good, fun Pokemon to start our CCAT with.
Some of the sets posted, notably bubbly's Deo-D and Hwang's Dragonite don't seem very viable to me. I mean I've read the explanations provided, but I still get a feeling of "what's the point?". Unorthodoxy isn't necessarily awesomeness.
But I absolutely love bubbly's Nidoqueen. Nidoqueen is amazing. End of story. I would totally enjoy a Nidoqueen-based CCAT, and it would have a crap-load of..... for lack of a better term, flavor value, given that we did the last one on Nidoking.

Finally, I would like to know how the voting for the sets is going to work. Ideally, I'd like to see some sort of IRV (alternative vote), preferably quite a detailed one. I've noticed some complaints about vote splitting between Kyurem and Abomasnow, for instance, which would easily be avoided by implementing such a system. I've got lots of time on my hands if you'd need help with adding up the votes for this sort of thing, given that it's quite complicated.

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jc104, may you elaborate on this alternative voting? In order to avoid splitting votes, I was thinking of informing all of us to vote Abomasnow if you want a Hail team and vote Kyurem if you want to use Kyurem without Hail. If Abomasnow was then chosen as CCAT, we would have another mini-vote to decide building a Hail team with or without Kyurem.

I think this would resolve the problem, but if you think IRV is a better option, please provide us some more examples / details :d

OK Pocket. Alternative vote is just another way of saying IRV, by the way, and what I mean by detailed is allowing a reasonably large list from each voter.

For those of you who don't know how IRV works I'm going to give a quick description:



This is easier to calculate than you might think because there are online calculators for it. Basically, if you give me a load of ranked lists, I can tell you the winner.

So, what's the point? Well, it completely eliminates any form of tactical voting e.g "I really wanted to vote for Staraptor, but I knew it wasn't going to win so I didn't" (a terrible psychology that often leads to stagnant two-party systems). This means that someone wanting a team with Abomasnow and Kyurem simply to list Abomasnow, and then Kyurem without having to consider tactics in any way.

The other thing that IRV does is to give a choice that everybody is happy with to an extent. It wouldn't surprise me if Nidoking had lost under this system, because I suspect a number of people really didn't want Nidoking. Anyway, this should prevent people from losing interest in the project, as I did in the case of Nidoking, because a generally unpopular Pokemon has the most 1st choice votes.

@SlimMan: the Heracross set I decide upon will almost certainly not be in the analysis. I don't want to use one of those disgustingly frail sets, because I'd much, much rather use Medicham, Lucario, Mienshao etc. The HeraBoss set with a bit more attack, less Speed and Close Combat over Low Kick would probably be fine. Swords Dance was basically a consideration only for wallbreaking, and beating stall. I really don't see SD Heracross sweeping against a more offensive team at all, but Heracross should be able to pull its weight firing off powerful attacks.

I've been using Wish Salamence recently, and it's pretty anti-metagame while countering both CB and SD Scizor. Intimidate is a great ability, and passing
Wishes to partners such as specially defensive Heatran or low health sweepers is really cool. Scarf Terrakion isn't guaranteed to 2HKO it with Stone Edge after Intimidate, and Salamence takes any Close Combat with ease. It can function on both full stall and balanced teams, as it really only needs something to handle Dragons, special attackers (particularly Latios and Rotom-W with HP Ice), as well as maybe Dragon Dance or Scarf Tyranitar, which I have been seeing a lot more of lately. I've been using specially defensive Heatran as a partner, along with Virizion to take any stray Hydro Pumps or Surfs. Forretress could also be a good member of the team, offering Rapid Spin to help with Salamence's Stealth Rock weakness, as well as complimenting Heatran's Stealth Rock and Salamence's Dragon Tail with Spikes and Toxic Spikes. Here's the set:


Salamence @ Leftovers
Trait: Intimidate
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
EVs: 252 HP / 224 Def / 32 Spe
- Wish
- Protect
- Dragon Tail
- Flamethrower

With Toxic Spikes support from Forretress, Wish and Protect form a very lethal combo. I prefer Protect over Roost since it allows you to handle VoltTurn better while also scouting for Rotom-W with HP Ice. Dragon Tail is cool as a phazing move because even with a negative nature it still does over 50% to almost all Dragons bar Multiscale Dragonite and other Salamence with Intimidate. Flamethrower is the main attacking move, and is what really makes it a Scizor counter as opposed to a check. Since this set tends to lure in Skarmory and Ferrothorn due to the popularity of the Choice Scarf set, Flamethrower is also useful in weakening them so a teammate such as Mamoswine can plow through them later. Mamoswine also provides revenge killing support, taking on boosting Dragons that Salamence can't handle. Instead of the on-site 16 Speed EVs, I run 32 to outspeed non-Choice Rotom-W, since they usually don't carry HP Ice and Volt Switch only does like 35%, allowing you to get a Wish in.

Wish Salamence is a really good Pokemon, checking two of the metagame's top threats in Scizor and Terrakion, providing great team support, and has the surprise factor to catch a lot of teams off guard.

Just thought I'd post showing which Pokemon that have been suggested so far I like, and why my SubLatios is still the best!

Bulk Up Heracross: Hera has always been one of my favourite Pokemon and it was so sad watching him have lower and lower as DPPt progressed (ending with this once top OU behemoth being in BL). I think the Bulk Up set is excellent as it can set up on this like Hippowdon, defensive Tyranitar, Ferrothorn, Forretress, Chansey/Blissey and most other stall Pokemon. It doesn't care about status because of Guts and can set up against the former three because it boosts it's Defense along with its Attack. The only thing I would change would be the nature (Adamant>Jolly) because you'll mainly be setting up against slower, bulkier Pokemon so the Attack boost is helpful.


Dragon Dance Scrafty: Another really good, underrated nom. It absolutely wrecks the metagame thanks to its great coverage, bulk and power. I like Bluemon's point about there not really being any (especially physical) sweepers left apart from DDNite. People prefer to hit hard off the bat with Choiced attacks or to use sub sets to beat usual counters. This set could bring set-up sweeping back in fashion! I prefer Hi Jump Kick over Drain Punch to be honest because with a Jolly Nature and no Life Orb Scrafty won't be hitting all that hard with its neutral attacks.


Nasty Plot Mew: I cannot believe this thing is UU! It says a lot about the power creep when a Pokemon can go from Uber to UU in one generation (I don't think that big a jump has ever happened before). This set explodes with destruction. It has such amazing coverage and can outspeed a lot of the metagame thanks to its 100 base Speed. The only problem I have is the lack of Psyshock. Things like Dragonite and Blissey/Chansey could wall Mew all day long without it. Also I would consider Roost over Fire Blast but I'd have to test it out a little more.


Sharpedo: As a frequent RU player I know just how annoying and destructive a well-played Sharpedo is. The mixed set is especially deadly in RU but I can see why the purely physical set would work better in Standard play (its stats aren't as high in OU as they are in RU). This set can easily force switches with its good coverage and amazing base 120 Attack so getting that Speed Boost (see what I did there?) shouldn't be too hard. I was just wondering if the EV spread was thought through. Surely 252 Speed isn't needed?


SubRoost Staraptor: Again I'm being a bit biased here because this is my favourtie Flying-type but that's not the only reason it should be considered. It has amazing neutral coverage and attacks with very high base power. Also, now that Rotom-A has lost its Ghost-typing this set has lost its number 1 counter (although Metagross and especially bulky Pokemon still counter it pretty solidly). Even though Staraptor has Roost at its disposable I found that the standard SpD Jirachi with Wish and Stealth Rock as well as Thunder Wave and Iron Head helps Staraptor a lot. It can get rocks up to help Star get certain KOs as well as paralysing faster threats, healing it with wish and taking Electric-, Rock- and Ice-type attacks well.


Zoroark: Although I worry that building a team around this would lead to people making it a lure for another Pokemon to sweep I still think that Zoroark has great potential and that it would be great fun to build a team around it. It's also a very strange Pokemon because it has such an eccentric ability that many don't even understand fully so it definitely has got a good surprise factor (on top of the fact that it actually turns into a different Pokemon, so saying it has surprise factor is a bit redundant). Anyway moving on...


Work Up Infernape: Infernape is a great Pokemon that is starting to regain appreciation thanks to Blaziken's Uber ban. But it's not happening fast enough! The premier wall-breaker from DPPt loves Work Up. An attack that boosts both its decent attacking stats? Yes please! Seriously though this thing is so good it's a joke. Fire Blast and Close Combat hit insanely hard thanks to STAB and high Base Power; they also have great coverage. Stone Edge is better than Hidden Power Ice because it has greater Super Effective coverage on things you can't hit with Infernape's STABs (and a +1 Close Combat will wreck Haxorus). It also has the high base Speed that you need with a mixed sweeper (yes I am looking at you Hydreigon).


Rain Dance Kingdra: Kingdra is a great Dragon-type. It may have mediocre stats but its great typing and coverage make up for this. It is a great mixed attacker and can take advantage of the fact that so many people use rain based teams (especially after that great rain stall team was featured in The Smog) thanks to Swift Swim.


Pokemon that I don't really like:

Explosion Azelf: I really don't like using Explosion/Self Destruct this generation because of the ridiculous nerf they got. Also the set you posted doesn't really seem to have a specific role. Fair enough it can stop opposing hazards and set up Stealth Rock, but then what? It's left with an innacurate STAB move with poor coverage and a self destruct button that won't kill anything with some bulk. However if you changed it to NP Azelf, then it would be a whole different matter...


Agility Deoxys-D: My first reaction when I saw this was: WTF?!?!? And now my reaction is: *how do I break this nicely*... This set just won't work. Anything with high attacking stats can just come in and break your sub 5 times until you can't do it anymore and are basically a sitting duck. Also you have to choose each turn between Taunt, Substitute, and Recover. If you choose Taunt you don't have a sub up and the attacker can hit you hard with whatever move they want. If you use sub they can set up (hazards or boosting) as well as Roaring (or Whirlwinding) you out. And if you use Recover it probably won't do much good because you outspeed the attacker (assuming +2 Speed) and so get hit after you've recovered which is never good. Sorry man, I just don't think this would work, even with hazards.


Dragon Dance Haxorus: Maybe it's because I am so biased towards the Swords Dance variant but I find that DD Hax can't really accomplish much. It doens't have enough power to muscle past stall team, nor does it have enough Speed to destroy offensive teams. For example you use Dragon Dance on the switch. In come Scarf Terrakion (or any strong scarfer). Terrakion uses Close Combat. Haxorus is dead. Or same switch boosting scenarios but with stall. In comes full health Dragonite. Dragonite uses Dragon Tail. Haxorus dies to hazards next time it comes in. Haxorus is only really good against stall teams (it just gets trolled by that 99 Speed against fast-paced attacking ones) thanks to Taunt and Swords Dance.


And finally:

Why SubLatios is Boss!

I have already stated my reasons for suggesting SubLatios as the CCAT Pokemon of choice. It can escape the clutches of a lot of its counters thanks to Substitute as well as taking out Scizor with HP Fire and stoping Ferrothorn or Forretress (both with Specially Defensive spreads) from littering my side of the field with hazards. Also, because of Substitute the imperfect Speed IV becomes less of a problem because you don't need to rely on Speed ties to outspeed and OHKO Gengar and other Lati twins. This set works so well with hazards support. It loves Toxic Spikes to cripple things like Blissey/Chansey and Tyranitar. Thanks to Sub, Latios forces a lot of switches (people switch Scizor out as soon as they see Sub because HP Fire is pretty predictable). That's not a bad thing, whatever comes in takes the HP Fire + hazard damage and whatever attack Latios decides to throw out next (or two if Latios outspeeds, which most of the time it does).

tl;dr

Vote for Latios 2012!

@ complete legitimacy

lethal set man. I have faced Wish Mence a few times on the ladder and its always a bitch. Man I remember getting wrecked by a double Wish Jirachi + Wish Mence combo, with Spikes Roserade. Christ what a bitch. I do dislike starting the team off with such a defensive member tho.

Dragon Dance Scrafty: Another really good, underrated nom. It absolutely wrecks the metagame thanks to its great coverage, bulk and power. I like Bluemon's point about there not really being any (especially physical) sweepers left apart from DDNite.

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Err, are you guys forgetting DD Mence, DD Haxorus, SD Haxorus, Double Dance Haxorus, SD Virizion, SD Scizor, SD Toxicroak, Shell Smash Cloyster, SD Lucario, DD Gyarados and like, SD / Double Dance Terrakion?

Minor points

I dislike Sub Latios tbh cos I just don't see the need for Substitute. With that 110 base speed Latios outspeeds like, most of the metagame anyway making it touch to revenge kill regardless. Also, you lose out on Roost which I feel has better utility in healing of LO and stuff. Speaking of which, I don't like the combo (which has a high chance to happen) of Sub + LO + SS which wears you down very fast, if your drop LO for leftovers then you lose a lot of power too :(

ginganinja said:

Err, are you guys forgetting DD Mence, DD Haxorus, SD Haxorus, Double Dance Haxorus, SD Virizion, SD Scizor, SD Toxicroak, Shell Smash Cloyster, SD Lucario, DD Gyarados and like, SD / Double Dance Terrakion?

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I'm just saying that there are physical set-up sweepers but they aren't really used as much as they used to. Terrakion is mainly choiced, SS Cloyster isn't that great, Dragon Dance Haxorus can't beat Stall or Offensive teams, SD Scizor is, imo, inferior to CB Scizor, Lucario is hardly ever seen and DD Mence has some advantages over DD Nite but is essentially outclassed.

Basically what I'm saying is that there are a lot of physical set-up sweepers; there either not that good or are underused (the word not the tier).

SkullCandy said:

I'm just saying that there are physical set-up sweepers but they aren't really used as much as they used to. Terrakion is mainly choiced, SS Cloyster isn't that great, Dragon Dance Haxorus can't beat Stall or Offensive teams, SD Scizor is, imo, inferior to CB Scizor, Lucario is hardly ever seen and DD Mence has some advantages over DD Nite but is essentially outclassed.

Basically what I'm saying is that there are a lot of physical set-up sweepers; there either not that good or are underused (the word not the tier).

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A lot of what you're saying is either poor reasoning or simply isn't true. Just because Terrakion is mainly Choiced doesn't mean it doesn't destroy stall after a Swords Dance or destroy offense after a Rock Polish. Shell Smash Cloyster has no common counters, and only a limited number of checks. Double Dance Haxorus can destroy both stall and offense at the same time. SD Scizor is honestly more threatening in virtually every way than CB; the only reason CB is used more is since it checks both Terrakion and Reuniclus better. It also doesn't matter that Lucario isn't used as much, as it's arguably the best setup sweeper in the game, as most of the time if it has the right coverage move for your team then it's sweeping, unless you run Gliscor, Jellicent, and Terrakion all at once. Lastly, DD Mence hits about as hard with one DD as Dragonite does with two, with more Speed and no four-moveslot syndrome. There are definitely physical setup sweepers in this metagame, and you're limiting yourself if you only consider DD Dragonite up to your standards.

This is the last I will say on the matter because I don't want to detract from this thread's purpose. I never said that Physical set-up sweepers aren't good (although I stand by the my opinion that SS Cloyster and Dragon Dance Haxorus are underwhelming); I said that they aren't as commonly used nowadays as they have been in the past. Which is why I think we should use one as our Pokemon for CCAT.

Now let's get back to talking about the Pokemon!

Salamence @ Choice Specs
Trait: Intimidate
Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
~ Draco Meteor
~ Dragon Pulse
~ Fire Blast
~ Hydro Pump

Nomming SpecsMence from the Other Options in the analysis. It's a midway point between Hydreigon and Latios, being neutral to Pursuit and in between them in Speed. Intimidate allows you to function as a decent physical buffer for your team with the hit-and-run nature of a Choice set. It faces stiff competition from the aforementioned Dragons, but common switch-ins to Salamence are typically more physically oriented, at least defensively, allowing the surprise factor to really tear stuff apart.

Let's take a look at what sets it apart. It can at least Speed-tie with other base 100s if necessary, unlike Hydreigon, and can't be KOed by a simple Pursuit, unlike Latios. It may not be as powerful as its competition, but Specs-boosted moves from 110 base SpA still hurt badly regardless. Draco Meteor and Dragon Pulse provide much the same for Mence as they do for the others: massive, one-off power and a consistent spammable move, respectively. It shares Fire Blast with Hydreigon as a way of putting the hurt on Steels, and has what many people forget about: Hydro Pump. With Hydro Pump and Fire Blast, Mence works reasonably well in clear skies, sun, and rain, gaining a pseudo-secondary STAB in the latter weathers. Sure, Latios and Hydreigon both get Surf, Hydreigon gets Focus Blast, and they both get a more reliable secondary STAB, but their sets are expected to be specially based. Dragon STAB and Fire Blast are mostly what you'd use anyway, and that leaves Heatran and special walls left to hit. Hydro Pump can hit Heatran, although sun does weaken it, and special walls are generally better left to the team.

Speaking of the team, this set appreciates Rapid Spin support just as much, if not moreso than, other Mence sets. Something to take on Sp. Def. Jirachi, Blissey/Chansey, Tyranitar, and Heatran (in sun) would be appreciated. There's something that four of these five share, and that's a Fighting weakness. Three are weak to Ground as well. Otherwise, something capable of taking Ice and Dragon moves and maybe setting hazards would be nice. While not entirely necessary or recommended, it could be paired with weather moves to both disrupt other weather and boost some of Mence's moves. SunnyBeam Heatran or Rain Dance Kingdra could work, I guess.

Just posting to say that I absolutely want IRV voting for this. Vote-splitting is a real issue, and in addition, several of the nominated Pokemon have certain conditions that need to be considered (Toxicroak-rain, Kyurem-hail), and this is not addressed with the simple voting system used in the last CCAT. To draw an analogy, it's liek a US Presidential candidate losing the popular vote, but ending up winning the election anyway. Pokemon can be selected aren't the most-wanted choice. So yeah, IRV voting is a good idea.

@ jc: See that I agree with. Heracross really isn't a Terrakion or something, it doesn't sweep per se. I don't really like the current analysis, but meh, it's alright. Not like you need my permission or anything (I don't own Heracross) but your idea sounds good to me.

Cobalion @ Leftovers
Impish; 252 Hp, 224 Def, 32 Spe

~Sacred Sword/Close Combat
~Thunderwave
~HP Ice
~Taunt

With 108 base speed he can outspeed and taunt a majority of his counters, and his defenses are simply unbelievable. With a 4x resistance to stealth rock, switching in is no trouble for him, and just so you can get an idea of how defensively sound he is, +1 Dragonite's Fire Punch can only 3HKO him. He also makes a perfect partner with Gyarados; they resist each other's weaknesses almost perfectly, bar Gyarados' weakness to electric.

I would definitely be backing some form of staraptor for this, it should be used alot more and would be great for building the team around.

Commenting on a bunch of sets:

Can't say I'm at all sold on SpecsMence. Life Orb Mixed (or even Life Orb special) is just a lot better, because it is harder to wall (after all, this is what you're looking for in a Specs set). The fact that you are forced to switch all the time and that you can't use Roost effectively may well mean that SpecsMence actually wears down even faster than the Life Orb version. SpecsMence might have good surprise value when you use it now, but the CCAT team will be completely open, no surprises.

I like the look of the Wish Salamence much better. Can't wait to try it out. Only thing is that Wish support is something you might need in a sticky situation. Having to spin before you can really use it kind of takes the edge off for me.

Druddigon is also pretty bad, with the possible exception of Trick Room, which is just a bad strategy in my opinion. OK there are a few exceptions (Reuniclus, mainly) but I definitely don't want to build a Trick Room team. I'd prefer Gravity or Tailwind, seriously. With thunderwave support, another dragon would still be more effective, as they have better power and coverage, and comparable bulk.

That Toxicroak was also previously very common and has been on notable teams before. It's pretty good, but I don't think it's the kind of underrated set we're looking for.

Nidoqueen is a set I'm going to be supporting. Its combination of abilities is totally unique; to wall a whole bunch of things, to set up Toxic Spikes, and to fire off powerful attacks with excellent coverage. The lack of recovery really is a concern though, so I'd say Blissey/Chansey is sort of mandatory, which leaves the team looking rather stallish to say the least. I don't mind this, but others might. The only slight complaint about the set is that it is actually very Rotom-W weak, which is not great for breaking "Volt-turn rubbish." I think maybe considering Sludge Wave somewhere might be a good idea. It's Nidoqueen's most powerful move and as such will do a decent amount as it comes in.

Aerodactyl: I absolutely loved this thing in Gen 4. Such a shame it was discovered so late on, so I barely got a chance to use it. I've never thought to use it in Gen 5. Perhaps it's the slower, bulkier state of the metagame, rendering much of Aero's Speed redundant, and obviously making its attacks less destructive, or perhaps it's that Ferrothorn kind of destroys it. Still, it was a surprisingly effective set in gen 4, so who knows. Maybe I'll be surprised.

Yanmega: OK, this thing is powerful and has great coverage, but it's not fast enough at all, and has a horrible SR weakness. I think similar destructive force can be attained by stuff like Dragons (and Medicham!) without necessitating rapid spin. In reality, Yanmega is probably only going to get one KO every time it comes in, absolute maximum. If the opponent gets up SR, what's that? 2 KOs? And that's assuming that the opponent doesn't have any kind of counter in the slightest.

Right now I think that I'm going to be supporting nidoqueen. I myself had zero success with her the one time I tried to build a team around her, and I would really like to a see a solid team featuring nidoking's female counterpart. The fact that she sees no usage in OU, despite having an interesting niche that helps her deal with a few huge threats in the current metagame is a huge plus for me.

My biggest problem with staraptor is that everyone already knows how powerful it is. I'm also somewhat opposed to a choiced user being the focus of the project. I really want to see a pokemon who can shine in some respect other than a hit and run suicide bomber.

Even though Lucario is one of the best sweepers in the game, his special attack stat is completely ignored. He is one the few Pokemon who now have Nasty Plot to make him a mean special sweeper and Aura Sphere which a lot of Pokes would kill for. But even when gaining a significant boosting move Luke's special sets are incredibly rare. Both of his special attacking sets are good, but are extremely underrated. Anyway here are my two nominations:

Lucario (M) @ Choice Specs
Trait: Inner Focus
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Aura Sphere
- Shadow Ball
- Dragon Pulse
- Vacuum Wave

This is one of my favorite sets right now. Hits extremely hard and a huge surprise factor behind it. Most regular Lucario switchin's don't stand a chance and have no idea what is about to hit them. Vacuum Wave is a pretty underrated priority move, a lot of mixed-offensive Pokemon run -Sp. Def Natures since almost all priority moves are physical. Lucario's moves have great neutral coverage and can hit anything hard. He breaks up a lot of common cores and overall is a great Poke.

Lucario (M) @ Air Balloon
Trait: Inner Focus
EVs: 4 Def /252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Aura Sphere
- Shadow Ball
- Vacuum Wave
- Nasty Plot

This is basically Lucario's unknown set. I haven't used it much, but surely packs quite a punch. Air Balloon is there to set up on unsuspecting Gliscors and Choiced Earthquakes. From my experience, a lot of teams don't prepare for Nasty Plot Lucario so they are exetremely suceptible to him. I prefer Specs, but Nasty Plot just pushes Lucario over the edge in terms of power.

Edit: On Nidoqueen: TBH I really would be disappointed if Nidoqueen got nominated considering how similar she is to Nidoking.

kinda agreeing 100% with what jc104 just said on the pokmeon he just listed. In particular I dislike Specs Mence mainly cos you have Hydreigon and Latios/Latias that actually do the set BETTER.

On Nidoqueen

I have used Nidoqueen extensively and its really, really good. I prolly won't vote for it cos I have lots of teams that use it anyway (like my old Dark Horse Team or like 5 other teams I have based around Nidoqueen). Its a good pokemon, that usually gets a KO, although it is very vulnerable to Landorus and Rotom W, and against a team that doesn't mind Toxic Spikes (and doesn't have Terrakion), it can end up to be a deadweight. I prolly won't vote for anything defensive, since its hard to build the team around ONE defensive pokemon (for example with Nidoqueen yours looking at partners that work well with Toxic Spikes and before you know it the focus shifts to a different teambuilder :/ )

EDIT

On Lucario

Why Shadow Ball, is'nt Dark Pulse better?

I think the last CCAT was great and there are some fantastic pokemon being nominated for this one too. I'd like to support Nidoqueen, but I'd propose a more modern set.

Nidoqueen (F) @ Black Sludge
Trait: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 HP / 40 Def / 216 SDef
Sassy Nature (+SDef, -Spd) / Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Toxic Spikes
- Roar / Ice Beam / Ice Punch / Sludge Wave
- Earthquake / Earth Power (if using Roar)
- Fire Blast

This spread allows it to be more relevant in the OU metagame; it isn't 2HKOd by Timid Specs Jolteon's HP Ice (44.27 - 52.08%), haxCM Jirachi's rain-boosted Water Pulse at +1 (41.66 - 49.47%) or unboosted Psychic (42.18 - 50%) (Psyshock sadly does have slightly under 50% chance of a 2HKO) - allowing it to effectively check these threats.

A +2 Energy Ball from Modest LO Venusaur does 66.14 - 78.12%, while Nidoqueen can KO with a sun-boosted Fire Blast - whilst even a LO sun-boosted offensive Volcarona's +1 Fiery Dance (or Fire Blast outside of sun) fails to OHKO (83.85 - 98.69%), meaning Nidoqueen can make a successful last-ditch phazing attempt.

Standard MixTar's Ice Beam is a 4HKO (30.2 - 35.93%), so Nidoqueen can set up two layers of Toxic Spikes and 2HKO Tyranitar before being KOd, should both face each other at the start of a battle.

And it tanks all these special attacks whilst still surviving a +2 Rock Gem Stone Edge from Terrakion (67.96 - 79.94%) taking under half from a CB Close Combat (40.62 - 48.17%), and being able to easily phaze Conkeldurr. As a bonus, it also lives a Hydro Pump from modest Rotom-W (79.68 - 94.27%), making it slightly less voltturn-weak. Even with a Sassy nature it still outspeeds standard 8 speed Scizor, with Fire blast netting a guaranteed OHKO. Sheer Force Fire Blast allows it to force out other spikers, threatening a 2HKO on SpD Skarmory and Ferrothorn whilst OHKOing Forretress.

I love the suggested nominations of Staraptor, EspyJump, Medicham, and especially Zoroark (and would recommend a Swords Dance Pursuit set for the latter).

I'm extremely biased towards Lucario and Victini right now, given recent experience with both of them 6-0ing teams for me. The QWAZ's set on the first page was the first thought I had going into this thread. I run Adamant over Jolly, generally because Victini's base 100 defenses allow him to take at least 1 unboosted hit from a lot of things and the attack boost nets some OHKOs that he otherwise wouldn't get.

I've never used Specs Lucario but it looks really good. I love surprise factor sets. I'd use Dark Pulse over Shadow Ball since they have the same coverage but AFAIK nothing is immune to Dark Pulse. There's obviously the problem of Justified boosts, so I suppose it could be debated.

Prplcheez said:

I'd use Dark Pulse over Shadow Ball since they have the same coverage

Click to expand...

No. Heracross and Toxicroak resist Fighting/Dark coverage. Shadow Ball hits these neutrally.

@ Lacerta Yeah I'm definitely open to different spreads for Nidoqueen. I've been using the max physically defensive version because it lets it beat Breloom more consistently, and also take things like +1 LO Outrage or Landorus' EQ. On the other hand I can see that the special defense EV's would help more for most teams - particularly it means you're not getting OHKO'd by Rotom if you try and absorb Volt Switch as well as the other threats you mentioned.

Basically I think the spread you gave looks better :) Just means we couldn't rely totally on Nido to wall Terrakion.