np: RU Stage 8 - Killer Queen (votes inside)

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SilentVerse

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Well, the reason I prefer Sludge Wave is mainly because it makes prediction for Nidoqueen so much easier. Sludge Wave + a super effective coverage move 2HKOes a lot of Pokemon; for example, Sludge Wave + Thunderbolt actually has a really good chance to 2HKO Slowking after Stealth Rock, which is really nice since if I do hit Slowking on the switch with Thunderbolt, I can just use Sludge Wave next for a good chance to 2HKO. This is especially nice if they have, say, a Rotom-C on their team which could easily take Thunderbolt or even Earth Power, and I don't want to risk losing Nidoqueen to Slowking by using Fire Blast. Focus Blast is ok I guess if your team is really weak to Clefable and Munchlax, but the thing is, those two Pokemon are really easy to take advantage of, so I'd rather use Sludge Wave and leave Nidoqueen vulnerable to those two Pokemon, and use something like, say, OTR Cofagrigus or entry hazard users to set up on them.
 
Ehh, I have to disagree, /B/utterfree. From my experience anyway, Escavalier is surprisingly simple to find good partners for. Escavalier loves opposing Grass-types, Slowking, and Cryogonal in particular, since they're all very easy for it to deal with. So, you just need to find Pokemon who can lure those Pokemon in for Escavalier to capitalize on. I've personally had a lot of success using Mesprit in particular. Mesprit works really well since Slowking is one of the first responses opponents will use against it. Mesprit can just U-turn out of Slowking to Escavalier, which helps Escavalier by luring in something that's easy for Escavalier to deal with, giving it the opportunity to toss out its insanely powerful Megahorns, while also letting it help Mesprit by removing Slowking from the match. Mesprit also destroys Nidoqueen, Qwilfish, and similar Pokemon which can actually take Escavalier's Megahorn, and it does quite a bit of damage to OTR Cofagrigus with Psychic, which helps wear it down. Lanturn also works well from my experience though, as does stuff like Rotom-C and Manectric, since they lure out those Grass-types which Escavalier can deal with so easily. Escavalier can also double as a Pursuit trapper, so I've found that it can fit surprisingly well onto most teams.
So far, you've been correct. Finding teammates who can lure Slowking and other Pokes out for Esca to confront is slightly simpler. I was probably looking in more complicated areas, such as dealing with one of Esca's few (if any) problems in RU: the x4 Fire weakness. Since the only viable Flash Fire 'mon that hasn't been in UU or 'bove is Rapidash (Flash Fire Typhlosion is Unreleased, iirc), I generally use a Choice Band Rapidash set with Drill Run, Wild Charge, Flare Blitz, and Megahorn as well. Then there's also Water Absorb Lapras, in which I use a mixed Curse set (Surf, Drill Run, and Ice Shard are actually sufficient coverage), forming my defensive trio. As for other Pokes, I'm trying to mix and match to see which ones work best in RU, with or without Escavalier's aid. Sceptile is one of my keepers, but now I must decide on two other Pokemon I keep on my team before I continue.
 

EonX

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Been messing around with the EVs on SR+3 Attacks Nidoqueen, particularly the best Speed tier to hit while trying to keep some of her natural bulk which is very useful for the many Fighting, Bug, and Rock attacks you tend to face in the tier, and I've been very pleased with hitting 230 Speed(168 EVs) which allows Nidoqueen to get rid of Shell Smash Omastar, and Dragon Dance Crawdaunt, among others, before they get a chance to hit Nidoqueen. Sadly, you can't get in front of Cryo without near max EV investment, but if you catch it on the switch with Fire Blast, it's forced to try and Recover stall or spin and die. Going to test out Escavalier pretty soon and see how well it works with Mesprit, an old favorite of mine from Gen 4.
 

alexwolf

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Well, the reason I prefer Sludge Wave is mainly because it makes prediction for Nidoqueen so much easier. Sludge Wave + a super effective coverage move 2HKOes a lot of Pokemon; for example, Sludge Wave + Thunderbolt actually has a really good chance to 2HKO Slowking after Stealth Rock, which is really nice since if I do hit Slowking on the switch with Thunderbolt, I can just use Sludge Wave next for a good chance to 2HKO. This is especially nice if they have, say, a Rotom-C on their team which could easily take Thunderbolt or even Earth Power, and I don't want to risk losing Nidoqueen to Slowking by using Fire Blast. Focus Blast is ok I guess if your team is really weak to Clefable and Munchlax, but the thing is, those two Pokemon are really easy to take advantage of, so I'd rather use Sludge Wave and leave Nidoqueen vulnerable to those two Pokemon, and use something like, say, OTR Cofagrigus or entry hazard users to set up on them.
Yeah i guess you are right. Clefable and Munchlax seem easy to handle with other teammates.

The only problem is against stall teams, which will be able to wall your OTR Cofa or spin away your hazards, so having a poke that can 2hko everything in their team is very helpful.
 
I'm mostly curious, and I've been told why Metang got himself promoted to RU (Hilarity, thy name is Molk). However, what set do most Metang use to establish their presence in RU? I mostly want to see if the Poke in question can pull off a set that isn't a lesser version of Aggron, Klinklang, or any other Steel-types in the tier.

I also want to see if Metang isn't just set-up bait for any of the other Pokemon in the tier. We don't need another Ferroseed taking up a tierslot in a metagame it really can't hold up in.
 

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I'm mostly curious, and I've been told why Metang got himself promoted to RU (Hilarity, thy name is Molk). However, what set do most Metang use to establish their presence in RU? I mostly want to see if the Poke in question can pull off a set that isn't a lesser version of Aggron, Klinklang, or any other Steel-types in the tier.

I also want to see if Metang isn't just set-up bait for any of the other Pokemon in the tier. We don't need another Ferroseed taking up a tierslot in a metagame it really can't hold up in.
"Metang does nothing"

-President James K. Molk
 
"Metang does nothing"

-President James K. Molk
If that's the case, then I must undo Molk's work in order to make the RU tier more balanced.

So far, this is a set I like in Lapras, who acts as a teammate to Escavalier and Rapidash:

Lapras @ Leftovers
Ability: Water Absorb
Nature: Sassy
EVs: 248 HP, 8 Atk, 252 SpDef
Moves:
1. Curse
2. Surf
3. Ice Shard
4. Drill Run / Thunderbolt

As I already have two prominent physical sweepers in Rapidash and Escavalier, I wanted to do a mixed set with Lapras. While its offensive STAB combo is awesome, it also needs Drill Run in order to get past Lanturn.

Lapras' access to Thunderbolt should also be considered. If I decide to have someone dedicated to eradicating Lanturn, for example, I could easily replace Drill Run with Thunderbolt. The combination of Electric, Ice, and Ground-type attacks is also unresisted, so there's that. However, I want Surf to be able to deal with Nidoqueen on the switch; Ice Shard is usually not enough to OHKO unless I get more than one Curse boost in.
 
With that EV spread, Lapras is horrendously weak... It probably gets KOed by every Fighting-type in the tier, or every Electric or Grass-type. Ice Shard won't be doing any damage without a few Curses, and Lapras really finds it difficult to set up in this fast paced metagame. Lapras has some cool perks, but I don't think it's very effective in the RU metagame.
 
With that EV spread, Lapras is horrendously weak... It probably gets KOed by every Fighting-type in the tier, or every Electric or Grass-type. Ice Shard won't be doing any damage without a few Curses, and Lapras really finds it difficult to set up in this fast paced metagame. Lapras has some cool perks, but I don't think it's very effective in the RU metagame.
Actually, this isn't quite true. While some super-effective moves do one-shot Lapras, many of them actually fail to OHKO. As far as 2HKOing is concerned, though, you would be correct in this assertion.

Nevertheless, getting Lapras set up is as difficult as people have said it is. But when the Curse boosts start racking up, then the fun begins. I do love a good 2HKO-the-Lanturn-on-the-switch when it comes to unboosted Drill Runs, though. :)
 

alexwolf

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RestTalk Dragonair seems very promising in this meta. Here is the set i am talking about:

Dragonair @ Eviolite
252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful nature
Ability: Marvel Scale
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage

When asleep, or statused in general, Dragonair hits 326 / 350 / 393 defenses, which is simply insane. If you can remove it's few hard counters, such as phazers, taunters, and some steels, you can go to town, and easily sweep entire teams.

Magneton support is mandatory since he traps and kills Escavalier effortlessly. He also can trap Aggron and Klinglang, while also dealing a nice ~82% damage to Steelix with HP Fire (assuming Specs and a Modest nature). Not that eliminating Steelix is absolutely necessary, as Dragonair wins vs Steelix in a last mon scenario.

Pursuit support is also very helpful, as Haze Cofagrigus can be very annoying. You could pp stall her if it wasn't for Shadow Ball's SpD drops, which means that eventually it will beat you. CB Drapion is able to deal with Cofa pretty good as long as it doesn't come into WoW.

All in all a very good poke, that is relatively easy to use, but requires a lot of support. But given the right conditions it is almost unstoppable.

What are your thoughts?
 
I remember facing against that Dragonair set a couple times. I laughed at it with my mixed Curse Lapras set, treating the Dragonair as set-up bait for Curses that proceed to take down not only the Dragonair, but also at least one other opposing Pokemon as well. Marvel Scale Dragonair's good, but not that good (I've actually worked around it many times on PS!, most using Waterfall in lieu of Outrage or Sleep Talk).

Most Pokes in RU could still handle Dragonair, even with support from Magneton and Drapion. De facto hazing can still be done via Circle Throw Poliwrath, and Roar/Dragon Tail sets on many bulky Pokes. Furthermore, choosing Magneton and Drapion as teammates alone opens yourself up to a nasty Ground weakness already.
 

alexwolf

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The problem with phazing is that it only delays the inevitable. Once Dragonair is the last mon, and Drapion/Magneton have eliminated what they should have, Dragonair is really hard to stop.

But yeah a physical attacker with Curse and Ice STAB would be a pain for Dragonair. Thx god noone uses him...
 
The problem with phazing is that it only delays the inevitable. Once Dragonair is the last mon, and Drapion/Magneton have eliminated what they should have, Dragonair is really hard to stop.

But yeah a physical attacker with Curse and Ice STAB would be a pain for Dragonair. Thx god noone uses him...
I've been trying to use Lapras in a tier outside of NU for quite some time. At least now it's not entirely walled by Lanturn, courtesy of Drill Run.
 
The problem with phazing is that it only delays the inevitable. Once Dragonair is the last mon, and Drapion/Magneton have eliminated what they should have, Dragonair is really hard to stop.
Unless they get an air slash flinch with sigilyph ;)

But yeah, dragons are just in general pretty beastly in RU. Druddigon, Dragonair, and Fraxure all got great new toys with BW2 and Altaria is already a complete beast in RU.

Much as I like lapras, I don't really think it has any place in RU. With fighting types being even more common here than in NU, you have to have something really out-standing to be a successful ice type in RU. Jynx has a great ability and a perfect movepool to fit its good stats and cryo has awesome bulk and all-round utility especially with rapid spin.

The main problem with dragonair I think is that you have to last a long time without suffering any bad luck, defense drops, flinches, etc. as you slowly stack up boosts and even then hazers and phazers also make life miserable for it. Pretty much anything with dragon dance can succeed in RU I've found.

DD feraligatr is a seriously under-prepared for threat that sweeps really well due to its great coverage, with waterfall, ice punch, and crunch missing out only on poliwrath (who admittedly is one of the best defensive pokemon around this round). I get goosebumps thinking how good this set will be when sheer force is released...
 
The lack of viable Ground-types in the tier this round is a bit jarring. Of the three viable RU Ground-types, Steelix, Nidoqueen, and Quagsire, only the latter third has any reliable recovery. I consider Lanturn to be a problem for my team, so I'll have to either re-enlist Golurk, or...

I'll bring Torterra to the fray. I'll be testing the Curse set from Smogon to see how well it holds up in RU (it's even listed in the RU analysis, to my knowledge). Maybe if more Ground-types show up aside from Quagsire and Steelix, then Lanturn might not be such a nuisance to the tier as far as balance is concerned.
 

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hmmmm some things i have noticed from my ru stint so far

1) crawdaunt is an absolute monster. why dont people use this more? it seems to me like tangrowth usage has fallen a lot, and crawdaunt is here to take full advantage of it. i've been using substitute + dragon dance, and by smart double switching to get in on slowking (works out really well because slowking thinks it can come in on everything because of regenerator) and getting up a sub, as scald wont break it. slowking usually switches out though, and from there you can start to wear down the initial crawdaunt switch in, or just boost up and go. also cool cause it sets up on cb tomb pursuit, so sometimes i let cryogonal die just to get a free chance to dance.

you can run daunt in conjunction with spikes too because absolutely no rapid spinner is going to want to come in on it. sandslash and cryogonal are way too scared. crawdaunt singlehandedly beats stall unless they run bulky restalk poliwrath or seed bomb ferroseed, arguably the only 2 hard counters.

2) no love for braviary? 123 base attack is awesome, and with u turn to get away from steelix/rhydon/bulky steel rock switch ins i see no reason not to use it. cb brave bird ohkos nidoqueen, frustration does a shitload to lanturn, who thinks it can come in on brave bird. scarf set is cool too for brave bird spamming late game with hazards, because it 2hkos sandslash/ohkos cryogonal

3) belt magmortar is pretty awesome with hp grass for lanturn and earthquake for flareon. fire blast/thunderbolt still smash regenerator cores and feign the choice set pretty effectively. lanturn has become more common in an attempt to check mag but hp grass 2hkos the switch in after stealth rock damage. flareon hasnt become too common yet but i have a feeling it will start to become more common on stall as a wish passer/secondary fire check, and ebelt earthquake 2hkos. another cool anti spin mon

but yeah just some things ive noticed so far :toast: mostly just want people to realize how awesome crawdaunt is and try him out
 
hmmmm some things i have noticed from my ru stint so far

1) crawdaunt is an absolute monster. why dont people use this more? it seems to me like tangrowth usage has fallen a lot, and crawdaunt is here to take full advantage of it. i've been using substitute + dragon dance, and by smart double switching to get in on slowking (works out really well because slowking thinks it can come in on everything because of regenerator) and getting up a sub, as scald wont break it. slowking usually switches out though, and from there you can start to wear down the initial crawdaunt switch in, or just boost up and go. also cool cause it sets up on cb tomb pursuit, so sometimes i let cryogonal die just to get a free chance to dance.

you can run daunt in conjunction with spikes too because absolutely no rapid spinner is going to want to come in on it. sandslash and cryogonal are way too scared. crawdaunt singlehandedly beats stall unless they run bulky restalk poliwrath or seed bomb ferroseed, arguably the only 2 hard counters.
I agree. I've been using crawdaunt myself actually and it is beastly. The only real disadvantage is how hard it can be to set up, especially against offensive teams where it isn't so useful, but yeah, crawdaunt is really good if you give it a hand setting up. The main problem is poliwrath, though, as it is definetely one of the best defensive pokemon in the tier at the moment and I'm surprised not more people have caught on. Though using crawdaunt alongside medicham or gallade is a pretty good idea seeing as you can take down poliwrath and bait out slowking.

One thing though that I've been very impressed with is emboar. I'm surprised not more people have realised that it's amazing coverage is literally unwallable in RU, unless you use something like thick fat grumpig...

Just with STAB moves alone and a choice band equipped, you have a good chance of 2hkoing nearly everything in the tier but throw in godly coverage moves like head smash and wild charge, moves entei would kill for, and you have one dangerous pig on your hands. Choice Scarf is surprisingly strong too and you can revenge kill a lot thanks to great coverage.
 
I've actually caught on to Poliwrath's usability when I was looking for partners for Escavalier. I use one of the standard sets for it, but I've had teams get wrecked by primarily Poliwrath setting up on them. I love Lapras, but it can't pull off an awesome SubPunch set like Poliwrath can.

My Torterra set's also capable of wrecking entire teams whole, and I'm actually very surprised it hasn't made it up to at least RU yet. Lotsa shit get wrecked by Curse-boosted STAB moves. Then I reliably recover lest they be a rain team (which, on Pokemon Showdown, I've yet to locate any rain teams).
 
My Torterra set's also capable of wrecking entire teams whole
That reminds me, how does Rock Polish Torterra fare in this meta? Since it was one of last gens big threats in UU and all.

I always shy away from Curse on ANY Pokémon. Something's bound to come in, outspeed, and exploit your biggest weakness. Torterra hates ice, fire and bug...very exploitable. Lapras has nice SpDef but I'd assume it's still 2HKO'd by strong Thunderbolts and Leaf Storms?
 
That reminds me, how does Rock Polish Torterra fare in this meta? Since it was one of last gens big threats in UU and all.

I always shy away from Curse on ANY Pokémon. Something's bound to come in, outspeed, and exploit your biggest weakness. Torterra hates ice, fire and bug...very exploitable. Lapras has nice SpDef but I'd assume it's still 2HKO'd by strong Thunderbolts and Leaf Storms?
Curse sets are actually good on naturally slow Pokes that aren't Ghost-typed. Usually they're bulky enough to pull it off, and when they do it's glorious. Then again, it is difficult when you're confronting Accelgor and equally-swift Pokes in RU and UU.

Anyway, I'm not seeing the merit of Ferroseed in RU anymore. Especially not when there are so many better Steel-types in the tier who can do Ferroseed's job 100 times better in both RU and NU. I've confronted a few Ferroseeds who then die easily, or lose any value in their teamslot by my Trick-ing their Eviolite away. Ones running Protect I laugh at, because it means they're set-up fodder wholesale.
 

alexwolf

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Rotom-C is still disgustingly effective as a scarfer. This fucker and SD Aqua Jet Kabutops are always a problem for every single offensive team i make... The list of offensive pokes that can come into Kabutops is so fucking small... Sceptile? OHKOed from Stone Edge... Rotom-C? 2HKOed with SE + AJ. Offensive Drapion? 2HKOed with SE + AJ. Hitmonchan? OHKOed with +2 Aqua Jet after Spikes. Lilligant? OHKOed with SE. Seriously this thing is fucking insane, and one the biggest threats to any offensive team. If you want to run pure offense, be sure to not have pokes weak to Aqua Jet, and to have pokes that can ohko Kabutops (thankfully this is not difficult).
 

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Anyway, I'm not seeing the merit of Ferroseed in RU anymore. Especially not when there are so many better Steel-types in the tier who can do Ferroseed's job 100 times better in both RU and NU. I've confronted a few Ferroseeds who then die easily, or lose any value in their teamslot by my Trick-ing their Eviolite away. Ones running Protect I laugh at, because it means they're set-up fodder wholesale.
You obviously haven't faced any good players using Ferroseed (although to be fair not many good players use Ferroseed; it's a fact, I don't agree with it though). Ferroseed most definitely has a niche as one of the best defensive Spikers in RU. Also, when you talk about "so many" Steels doing Ferroseed's job better, the only one that really comes close is Steelix. Its typing basically makes it a cross between Tangrowth and Steelix, and can handle a lot of what either of them do. However, Ferroseed has some things over Steelix such as Spikes, Thunder Wave, and an arguably better typing, more suited to wall things such as Feraligatr and Kabutops. Thunder Wave is arguably its most important move, meaning that only Ground-types such as Nidoqueen are truly safe switch-ins. It's really easy to predict a switch-in from Moltres or Entei, and with Thunder Wave they're crippled immensely. Ferroseed is stupidly hard to KO with either a physical or special move, surviving stuff like +2 Omastar's Life Orb Ice Beam, CB Druddigon's Superpower, and sometimes even Scarf Primeape's Close Combat. It beats Steelix and Sandslash 1-on-1, and can just annoy your opponent in general. However, I do agree with you about Protect, since the only moves Ferroseed should be running is Spikes or SR/Thunder Wave/Leech Seed/Gyro Ball unless you don't need extra hazards for some strange reason. Also, I personally never switch in Ferroseed to Rotom or Rotom-C.

tl;dr: FerroSTRONGTH
 
I like Ferroseed, it's an excellent utility Pokemon. Unfortunatey, it's pure setup bait for Pokemon that can mow through your team, and thus not caring about Spikes, such as Bouffalant and most Grass-types.

However, I'd like to give a shoutout to Jynx. She's easily been the MVP on my most recent team, and she sits in a very, very good speed tier. normally I use her to simply sleep the opponent's lead, then setup a Sub as they switch (or lol attempt to wake up). If the switchin is faster (and thus frailer), I'll go for the Ice Beam for a nice solid smack. If it's slower, I can just Nasty Plot and proceed to rip it apart on the next turn. Fact is, for some reason people actually SET UP ON JYNX behind a Substitute, while I use another Nasty Plot, sometimes even reaching 3. A +4 Jynx OHKOd specially defensive Cryogonal after SR and a tiny bit of residual damage with Ice Beam. If that's not phenomenal firepower, I don't know what is. Jynx is scarily fast, outspeeding and OHKOing massive threats such as Nidoqueen and Moltres without setup after Stealth Rock. If people lead with Nidoqueen, you can actually just one shot her with Ice Beam. Steel-types give her the willies (well, Escavalier and Klinklang), especially the latter, as it can KO through Substitute. If you haven't already slept an opponent, these are the ones to sleep. Generally I use Steelix to counter them, but obviously the ideal partner is Magneton (unfortunately I need SR on the team). Water-types can't beat Jynx for the most part, as she's immune to their STAB and resistant to Ice Beam, and can just setup and beat them with her own Ice Beam. Obviously Feraligatr, Kabutops and Poliwrath are more annoying, as they all have other moves to hit her with. Grass-types are therefore still good partners.

I've so far been using the best set (Sub/LK/NP/IB), but you can always run a coverage move like Psychic/Psyshock to more quickly eliminate things resistant to Ice. Slowking resists this, but unless it has Fire Blast it's going up the river.
 
We will be having a suspect discussion on IRC in #rarelyused about Nidoqueen, Moltres, and possibly Gothitelle, so come join!

One will be held today (August 11th) at 8:00 PM EST (GMT -4) and tomorrow (August 12th) at 8:00 PM EST (GMT -4) (the Sunday time is subject to change).
 

Oglemi

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Nearly all the votes are in, Nidoqueen first:

ShakeItUp said:

Nidoqueen: Do Not Ban

As an offensive player, I can say that Nidoqueen is a good asset to have, but is definitely not broken against offensive teams. It is relatively easy for my team to handle, due to the fact that I can revenge kill it easily and such. Sometimes I also don't have to even sacrifice a Pokemon to it; it just requires prediction. On the defensive side of things, it is harder for me to say. However, I am going to say that, even if you use stall, you can still beat Nidoqueen. It is obviously harder to beat it with stall than it is with offense; I don't think anyone is arguing with that point. However, the fact of the matter is, Nidoqueen needs Sludge Wave with SR + Thunderbolt or two Thunderbolts to KO Slowking, which is seen on pretty much every stall team. Now it's not necessarily hard to use Sludge Wave or Thunderbolt, but for many things, you need to use Earth Power or Fire Blast to against, which opens up a door for prediction. Spiritomb can also come on after Nidoqueen kills something and Pursuit it on the switch, denting it severely. Also, it's not immune to Spikes, meaning that it is still susceptible to entry hazards. Also, Cryogonal can outrun Nidoqueen just by running a couple Speed EVs (and if you run Timid Nidoqueen, you lose a lot of power, and are still slower than Offensive Cryogonal), and Misdreavus walls almost al of them because most people do not run Shadow Ball. Also, if Nidoqueen uses Shadow Ball to defeat Misdreavus, Uxie, and Mesprit, it is easier to play around because it doesn't have a very strong neutral STAB move in Sludge Wave to throw around everywhere. Also, it does not OHKO every Pokemon on stall; Pokemon can live at least 1 hit, which opens the door to damage it further. Overall, I feel that Nidoqueen is fine in the RU Metagame, even though it causes problems for defensive teams, it can be played around.
Molk said:
Nidoqueen: Do Not Ban

Ever since Nidoqueen was seen below 3.41% in the UU usage stats, it was pretty obvious it would shake up RU a lot if it dropped, two months later, many player's wishes came true. Nidoqueen dropped, and it was scary. Despite this, i dont think Nidoqueen is broken after playing both with and against it. While Nidoqueen is a very threatening wallbreaker with very few safe switch ins, there are many key flaws preventing it from completely breaking the tier. For one thing, Nidoqueen's speed tier is decent at best, and it pretty much has to run a neutral nature to hit as hard as possible. Leaving its speed at the equivalent of a positive base 65, this is more than enough to outspeed any wall, but not enough to stop nidoqueen from being revenge killed. Despite its bulk, any moderately powerful attack will do a LOT of damage to nidoqueen, meaning that things like moltres and Feraligatr have no trouble revenge killing it. Another thing Notable about Nidoqueen is that while its typing grants it with many useful resistances to things like stealth rock, toxic, and twave, it also curses Nidoqueen with weaknesses to MANY common attacks. Nidoqueen is weak to Scald, Earthquake, Psychic, and Ice Beam. All of which are on pretty much every team. The newfound threat (and possible suspect itself), Gothitelle also traps and revenge kills Nidoqueen with no trouble. In the end, With all these flaws, i feel Nidoqueen should not be banned and should at least be tested more.
DittoCrow said:
Nidoqueen: Abstain

Nidoqueen is no doubt the most powerful Pokemon in the tier right now. Nidoqueen's bulk and inability to be easily worn down by residual damage is Nidoqueen's greatest asset. Nidoqueen's 90 / 87 / 85 defenses are something that should not be overlooked, as they help ease the prediction that Nidoqueen relies so much on. Most of the time, switching around to Pokemon that resist one of Nidoqueen's moves will result in the player being outpredicted, and Nidoqueen will weaken a ton of things in the process. Furthermore, even if Nidoqueen predicts wrong and loses 70% of its HP, the lack of Life Orb recoil and resistance to Stealth Rock allow Nidoqueen to continue attacking. This somewhat forces players to run much more fast-paced, offensive teams and Pokemon than they are used to so they don't lose to Nidoqueen, leading to the bane of defensive play. While defensive play is not totally out of the picture, this is just demonstrating Nidoqueen's supreme power and how much it affects the metagame. Even the most popular counter, Calm-natured Uxie, takes upwards of 35% from Nidoqueen's Sludge Wave; Nidoqueen has no trouble wearing down the opposition or picking off weakened foes late-game.

What really hinders Nidoqueen's abilities are its base 76 Speed and reliance on prediction. In such an offensively-oriented metagame as RU, Nidoqueen has trouble getting more than one or two KOs, especially because it must play carefully to obtain those KOs. In such a rapidly changing metagame, I feel that the ways of dealing with Nidoqueen are unexplored, and that it requires further testing.
Texas Cloverleaf said:
Nidoqueen: No ban

251 speed REALLY holds it back, every offensive pokemon will outrun
No recovery means that even if it will only ever be 2HKOd, it will ALWAYS be 2hkod

"To be exact, there are 35 Pokemon in RU (including Smeargle and Magneton) that outrun Nidoqueen. Of these 35, 17 can 2HKO. Of these 35, 10 can OHKO. Of the list that can 2HKO, 5 can actually OHKO with a specific set (In the same vein plenty of those that can 3HKO will 2HKO with a specific set). That means, in the tier alone, excluding NU Pokemon usable in RU and able to fall under those categories (such as Gardevoir, Cinccino, Swellow, Tauros, Sawsbuck, and Braviary), there are 27 individual, unboosted checks to Nidoqueen. By having just one of these Pokemon, you have checked Nidoqueen. Granted, it's just a check, and none of these Pokemon but Uxie and Cryogonal can switch in bar resisted moves."

Nidoqueen requires perfect prediction in order to dominate. If it mispredicts it open the door for something to either KO it or threaten it out.

It also cant switch into offensive threats easily as they threaten 2HKOs

It is true that Nidoqueens checks and counters can be worn down through pursuit, but this does not make nidoqueen better of its own merit, hence has no place in ban consideration.

I'm going to borrow blarajan's summarization but its really just a great one.

"In conclusion, I do not think Nidoqueen is broken in the current metagame. I believe its middling speed, which makes it occasionally even dead weight against offensive teams, the sheer amount of checks that exist for it, its weaknesses to Ground-, Water-, Psychic-, and Ice-type attacks, and the need for a good amount of prediction to use it make it more than balanced to use. I do not believe Nidoqueen not having a viable hard counter makes it broken, nor do I believe Nidoqueen by itself prevents stall from being usable."
Ciele said:
Nidoqueen:

One issue that Nidoqueen suffers with is its Speed. 76 Base Speed means that a large majority of Pokemon appearing on an offensive (or even a balanced team) are going to outspeed it. Some of the exceptions are Pokemon that are used in Trick Room such as Cofagrigus and Escavalier, so it's not as problematic for them. If you look at the usage stats, Nidoqueen only outspeeds three of the nine Pokemon (that aren't Nidoqueen) in the top 10, and one of those is Sandslash who shouldn't even be getting used. It also includes Slowking, who with Choice Specs or Life Orb will OHKO Nidoqueen 100% of the time. Even looking away from the top 10, there's loads of popular stuff that outspeeds it and most of which can potentially OHKO. It's not like it has a Speed boosting move to remedy this problem either. In fact, it doesn't have any boosting move that is worth considering using, so there's never the worry of allowing it to set up and sweep.

It's not as defensively sound as some people say as well. Going back to the top ten in usage, only Cofagrigus can't at worst 2HKO it, and over half of them can score the OHKO depending on the set. It's true that it is difficult to wear down with residual damage, but keep in mind that it is Sheer Force that we're dealing with, and not Magic Guard. It's still vulnerable to Spikes, it still takes damage from burns, and Stealth Rock is still a factor, even if not a huge one.

The main argument for the ban is that it is difficult to switch in against, but that's the case for a lot of good offensive Pokemon. It's not like it has no counters at all, because it does. And even more importantly, it has a myriad of solid checks.

I see no more reason to ban Nidoqueen, then I do to ban something like Salamence in OU. For all of their strong points, they also have weaknesses that can be played around. You never see Nidoqueen in team preview and think "I'll lose if I don't play to perfection".

So obviously, I'm going for Do Not Ban
complete legitimacy said:
Do Not Ban

Ok, Nidoqueen is definitely the more controversial of the two suspects, but in my mind it's not broken. Nidoqueen is a giant threat to stall, as it resists Stealth Rock and is immune to Toxic Spikes, doesn't take Life Orb recoil, and is immune to paralysis and burn. This makes it very hard to beat if you're using a defensively based team, as residual damage is the major way damage gets dealt by those kinds of teams. However, while Nidoqueen is powerful, and Nidoqueen is bulky, it's not bulky enough and it's not powerful enough. It doesn't OHKO the bulkier special walls that are common on defensive teams such as Slowking and Cryogonal, and it is 2HKOed by most STAB moves on stall teams. Poliwrath, Steelix, Earthquake Tangrowth, Slowking, Cryogonal, and Lanturn all make it very difficult for Nidoqueen to switch in. Stall teams can generally play around it reasonably easily, especially since it just uses Sludge Wave into a coverage move most of the time.

Nidoqueen is pretty similar to Magmortar, in that it is extremely threatening to stall, has very few counters, but isn't so great against offense. Of course, the key difference is that Nidoqueen isn't hurt nearly as much by hazards, and is immune to the two most common status moves. One of the major points brought up by those who wish to ban Nidoqueen is that it hurts stall too much to be healthy for the metagame. How is Magmortar any different? Is Magmortar broken? Of course not. Is Nidoqueen broken? No.

Offense also deals with Nidoqueen reasonably effectively as well, with several bulkier Pokemon being good checks to it. Uxie is one of the most common leads for offensive teams, and it happens to be arguably the best counter to Nidoqueen in the metagame. Golurk is also a wonderful check that 4x resists Sludge Wave, and can take the Earth Power that follows while KOing with Earthquake. Gallade is a bulky attacker that can deal heavy damage with Zen Headbutt, and Feraligatr can do the same. You can also use good lure sets to beat Nidoqueen; Life Orb Rotom-C can lure in Nidoqueen that thinks it will use Volt Switch, and when no Leftovers show, Nidoqueen is obliterated by Leaf Storm. It's not a foreign concept in a healthy metagame to have Pokemon that have almost no viable counters, such as Salamence, Terrakion, Kingdra, Magmortar, and others. Nidoqueen is just another one of them.

While Nidoqueen has definitely impacted the metagame, and burst onto the scene as a top-tier threat, it's still not broken. In a way, Nidoqueen is similar to Moltres; difficult to counter, easy to check. It's even more influential than Moltres, but this is a different metagame, and new metagames require adaptation, not banning.
Ningildo said:
Nidoqueen: Do not ban

Well, it's great against stall and can definitely tank a hit, but...it's like Machamp, as in it can threaten stall greatly, and can't be easily OHKO'd, but after that hit, it's an easy picking.

And even against Stall, smart playing can get a teammate in that can take a hit and retaliate with one of it's own, not to mention a ton of mons that Nidoqueen threatens can hit it on the switch with a (STAB) SE move. Which is a standard move on most of, if not all those mons, not just for Nidoqueen. Cryo also outpaces Modest Nidoqueen with just 24 Speed EV's. However, I'm not saying Stall can manhandle Nidoqueen. What I am saying is that Nidoqueen can't exactly have it's way with Stall.

Offense has no trouble with it, so I won't bother explaining Offense vs Nidoqueen.
Double01 said:
Nidoqueen- Do Not Ban
I do not think nidoqueen is ban worthy for a few specific reasons. One huge reason is because nidoqueen struggles deeply against offensive teams. As it finds limited switch in opportunities because most mons on an offensive team are faster and most likely will be able to ohko/2hko her. And even if it is able to get a free switch in it is still fairly easy to play around nidoqueen to get a good check to come in. The main thing people have to remember is that nidoqueen has to ALWAYS predict cause spamming sludge wave will easily get your opponent a free switch into a check.
I dont think Nidoqueen limits playstyles either. Although it gives another threat to defensive and stall teams it doesnt not make those playstyles unviable. I'm a strong believer in adapting to metagame shifts and nidoqueen coming down just means that your new team will have to adapt. Nidoqueen still has hard counters such as Munchlax and Clefable. And clefable is able to fit very nicely into a defensive/stall team supplying your team with wish or heal bell support which is invaluable.
Although, Nidoqueen has very large longevity it still has very few chances to do damage to the opposing team as its weaknesses to common types such as water, psychic, and ground limit its ability to switch in.
In conclusion, Nidoqueen doesnt deserve to be ban because of its limited switch in opportunities and that it requires A TON of prediction against offensive teams to even do any damage against them.
august said:
nidoqueen - ban

nidoqueen is the kind of pokemon that severely limits the RU metagame and makes it stale as well as imbalanced. Nidoqueen's rise has been the fall of nearly all defensive playing, and a pokemon that limits a whole tier to offense indefinitely is broken in my opinion. taking no life orb recoil and being SR resistant means that when nidoqueen is threatened it can simply switch out and come back in later, thanks to its sufficient bulk and solid typing. sludge wave, its main attack, is very hard to switch into, as most pokemon immune/resistant to sludge wave will be easily ko'd by nidoqueens other STAB/coverage moves. ban :toast:
Omicron said:
Nidoqueen:

Abstain

Although I have previously vouched for Nidoqueen's preemptive banning, I have a slightly different perspective on it after gaining a lot more experience with it, and seeing others use it in battle. I no longer think it is completely game-breaking, but I don't think it is a great fit for RU either. Nidoqueen can literally 2HKO or OHKO everything in the metagame with the exception of Munchlax and sometimes Uxie / Clefable. However, its Speed lets it down, though it is certainly enough to run through slower, more defensively oriented teams. I'm on the fence about Nidoqueen, and that is why I will abstain.
SilentVerse said:
Nidoqueen

Do Not Ban

I said I was on the fence about Nidoqueen before I left on vacation for a week, and now that I'm back, I'm even more undecided than before. Like I said in this post, my main issues with Nidoqueen are that it's extremely difficult to wear down, and even though it's Speed is mediocre, it still outspeeds most common walls on stall teams, while boasting the ability to 2HKO most of them as well. Yeah, you can play around it, but the advantage is by far in the hands of the Nidoqueen user. Even if the opposing Nidoqueen mispredicts and allows you to get something like, say, Slowking in against it, Nidoqueen's resistances to Stealth Rock and immunity to Life Orb recoil, Toxic, and Thunder Wave means that even if you do force Nidoqueen out, forcing it out isn't even that much of a problem since it can still switch in with relative ease. However, the people who were saying that Nidoqueen wasn't broken brought up some excellent arguments, which have made me reconsider my position on Nidoqueen. In particular, I kinda felt that this post had the most convincing argument. Even though Nidoqueen limits stall, it's not completely unusable with Nidoqueen around (just like HO and Honchkrow in Double01's comparison), and even though its hard counters might seem awful, I feel that we can't say that for certain at the moment without trying them out and seeing how they do.

While I still heavily dislike how Nidoqueen limits defensive teams, I feel that we still need another round to accurately see if stall has viable ways to deal with Nidoqueen, which is why I am voting Do Not Ban.
So with a 1-8 vote to not ban and 2 abstains, Nidoqueen will not be banned

Honko will not vote for this round, and SV can post his vote here when he's ready.
 
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