Counter This Pokemon [ginganinja vs TEMP V1]

@Pocket I like your Deoxys-D although I would recommend T-wave over Magic Coat just to screw over some of the faster pokes on team 2 and max speed as Genesect only gets +1 SPAtk if you have more defense evs. Only 4 SpDef evs are needed to make genesect get a +1 atk boost.

As far as the actual battling goes, shouldn't we give these teams to 2 talented players that aren't involved in this thread? I don't think it will make for accurate results when the battlers know the other person's team just as well as they know their own

I don't think it will make for accurate results when the battlers know the other person's team just as well as they know their own

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Thats kinda the point lol. Both players know each others teams, they know the strengths and weaknesses of both, the reasons why certain pokemon were selected. I would think that the people that actually created / helped build / had the most input into the teams would be in the best position to use them well, I could be wrong tho I guess

Nope you're absolutely spot on, ginganinja, and that's why we've been doing it like that. The one who contributed most to the team should be the one wielding it for the final showdown.

alexwolf brings some valid points about the shortcomings of Deoxys-D, but I'd like to point out that Deoxys-D prevents Genesect from putting up Rock Polish. Metagross can check Terrakion, too, I guess. Team 2 only has 2 slots left, so it's not unreasonable to find checks to their sweepers that can set up on Deoxys-D imo.

You also don't always need to lead off with Deoxys-D, either.

EDIT: It's also note-worthy that Terrakion would make team 1 even more vulnerable to priority moves.

alexwolf said:

One think to check before suggesting a mon, is what threats are dangerous for our 5-man team, and if a sole poke can cover the most important of them. For example if we go for Pocket's Deoxys-D, then SD Terrakion, RP Genesect, any Volcarona, CM Keldeo, Garchomp, DD Gyarados and Sandslash in sand (yeah don't laugh, because as of now it can sweep the whole team with one SD under his belt) all become very huge threats. Can we cover most of them in the last slot? The answer is of 'course no. The problem with Deoxys-D, is that he can get set-up on by many faster pokes, and because we have no scarfers or strong priority, not even very fast pokes (SD Garchomp sweeps us), one turn of set-up could very well mean gg. My opinion is that we should find something that leaves little to zero set-up room, while also having SR, which is a must and i don't want us to be forced to use it in our last mon, as this would limit us greatly.

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You make some valid points, but it seems you're not considering the fact that our team is not finished at all. I think our last pokemon should be a scarfer, for example (can be scarf Toed or something else), and picking it as a last mon is fine to give less information to Team 2 and patch up our weaknesses to their last two picks. Many threats you nominated can be checked in this way if they're chosen by our opponents, with no need to worry about them so much right now. Some of them, also, are just nonviable, since I strongly doubt Team 2 will opt for Sand at this point, and Garchomp is still banned if I didn't mistake something.

However, I like your Terrakion set; it seems a better Infernape, without U-Turning capabilities but can still set up SR easily with all the switches it forces, and is far more threatening after a Swords Dance (although I miss the ability to almost OHKO whole Team 2 without resorting to that crappy Stone Edge). Deoxys-D, in my opinion, is still not a bad set, since it prevents many things to set up on him via Taunt, and can set up a wider range of hazards; however, a more offensive SR setter with sweeping capabilities can be very valuable, given the kind of team we're building.

The problem with terrakion is that if the enemy picks Infernape (close combat, overheat, mach punch, stone edge):
-4 are outsped and terrakion ties
-4 are cleanly OHKOed by the right move, Meloetta is 2 HKOed (close combat has 43.75% chance to OHKO after SR).

I think right now the greatest threat is infernape. I know it is hard to counter and maintain an offensive presence at the same time, I'll try to think of something.

@ Pocket

Genesect is naturally faster than Doexys-D and outspeeds it with a Timid nature, so it can use RP before Deoxys-D can use Taunt. Also the problem with some of the sweepers that i mentioned is not that they can set-up only on Deoxys-D, but also in many of the other pokes that we have. For example Keldeo, Volcarona and RP Genesect can set-up on more pokes than just Deoxys-d, such as Metagross and Kyurem-W. So the problem is not finding a check to the things that can set-up on Deoxys-d in a single poke (which alone is a difficult thing to do), but finding a poke that checks any other threat major threat that we have uncovered with the rest of the team.

You are right about priority moves, especially BP, aka Scizor, but i don't think we will have a problem if we pick a decent Scizor check in the final slot. We already have 2 pokes that resist BP to switch into (the main being Metagross, as Thundurus-T is too frail), so all that is left is to have something that can switch into U-turn, without being scared of Bullet Punch.

@ganj4lf

Of 'course i am considering this. If you look more carefully at my post, you will see that i said:

One think to check before suggesting a mon, is what threats are dangerous for our 5-man team, and if a sole poke can cover the most important of them.

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Which means that before someone suggests a 5th poke, he should first think if all the big threats for team 1 (team 1 with the 5th poke he suggested), can be covered with the 6th poke.

Ah, okay, I kinda misinterpreted your post. Makes sense now. Thanks for clarifying.

I'll nominate this set:
Nidoking @ Life orb

252 SpA/252 Spe/ 4 hp
Timid nature
-Stealth Rock
-Earth Power
-Ice Beam
-Sludge Wave

Sludge Wave over flamethrower for multiple reasons:
1-Hit Rotom-W (31,25% chance to OHKO after rocks)
2-Avoid mind games with Heatran
3-Get a clean OHKO on Celebi (while outspeeding)
Ice beam is mainly coverage in case team 2 goes for a dragon (and they probably will).
Earth power is stabbed and destroys heatran (also 31.25% to OHKO Mamoswine after rocks).
Scizor is still 2HKOed by earthpower.
A 2nd electric immunity.
Fighting resistance.
Last but not least, it doesn't really mind a scarf.

I'm not sure we have enough physical presence though. Even if that Terrakion set has what we want (set up and SR) I think it compounds our weaknesses too much and 2 turns to set up without recovery is hard to achieve.

Edit: Since Kyurem and Thundurus-T already have ice coverage, I guess we can go something else. Fire, Electric, ghost and even water in rain are available. Dragon pulse would mean that the set is completely walled by bronzong.

Just throwing out there as I deliberate my nomination that at this stage we need at least Stealth Rock on the field. And preferably some sort of status.

Edit: Found my choice, I have my reasons.



Donphan @ Leftovers
Sturdy
Impish Nature
252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Att
-Stealth Rock
-Rapid Spin
-Knock Off
-Earthquake

Donphan has piss all special defense. He acts as a great lure for Celebi and Rotom-W which he can hit with Knock Off as they switch in (no more Trick). 0 Attack investment KO's Heatran with EQ 100% of the time, he can spin hazards away and set up Rocks reliably with Sturdy. Takes a max 37% from Ice Shard, less if Life Orb is knocked off and a 5 hit Icicle Spear only KO's with prior damage or if boosted by LO.

I'm not exactly sure if we want to start the possibility of a weather war, but here's a somewhat good option (maybe). I'm also not really sure if it's worth running with Rotom and his trick shenanigans but I'll post it anyway.


Tyranitar @ Leftovers
Trait: Sand Stream
Adamant Nature
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
- Stealth Rock
- Crunch
- Pursuit / Earthquake
- Superpower

As I said before, not really sure if you'd want to run this with that Rotom running around and also seeing as nothing on Team 1 really wants to take a choice scarf (but maybe you can save that for the 6th pick). Anyway, this is just meant to get Stealth Rock up and Pursuit trap Celebi (Earthquake can be used if you want more coverage like for Heatran). Rotom can't do much seeing as sand will be up and Mamoswine won't be doing much either due to Max HP and Def.

Posting to say that I really really like SR Terrakion, although personally, I would kinda like it if it had Sash. Currently, its tricky for Heatran just to switch in and set up Stealth Rock due to everything bar...Metagross T_T hitting it fairly hard (and meta has EQ I guess). Sash Terrakion gives us a last minute check to a set up sweeper Team 2 might attempt, and it would be useful against Infernape / Keldeo when even if you lose the speed tie, you survive and get the KO. Its also neat since Rotom W cannot kill with Hydro Pump, if it tries to, CC will cripple it. Instead, it would be more inclined to Volt Switch, which Thundurus-T can absorb, and Nasty Plot on (or just attack).

I would submit the set right now, but since alexwolf first posted the set (and im only suggesting minor changes), id rather full credit go to him. I am envisioning a moveset of CC / SE / X-Scissor / SR which threatens everything on Team 2, as well as giving us Stealth Rock. Not ask me

ginga - While SR Terrakion seems pretty good, we'd pretty much have to go without a spinner. Do you think Kyurem will be good enough without one?

I actually really like your suggestions ginganinja, but i would love to hear the input of others before making any change. Focus Sash sounds nice on paper, but in practice no matter how difficult for Heatran it is to set-up SR, he will do it in one way or another, and then we would have an item-less Terrakion, except if we run a spinner.

For example Heatran can set-up SR by forcing out a weakened Metagross (Meta takes 65% min from Lava Plume), or even a fulll healthy one (which means that it will die by EQ, but who cares, it couldn't do much against team 1 anyway). If something in Heatran's team dies by Thundurus-T, then Heatran can then come in, and set-up SR, as Thundurus-T either fails to ohko with Focus Blast, or uses NP. Either way, Thundurus-T will kill Heatran after the NP, and then it is going to get revenge killed by Mamoswine, which ohkoes after 2 LO rounds most of the times. Finally if Heatran comes into Kyurem, it will always manage to set-up SR, as even after SR, Earth Power will never OHKO. So this shows that Heatran will get many opportunitites to set-up SR if they play suicidally with it. Anyway, what i am trying to say, is that if Heatran is so deadweight and so hard pressed to wall anything against team 1, then the opponenet will realize that all it had to do to be succesful is set-up SR, and will try and achieve only this, even if it means Heatran going down, as it wouldn't have done much anyway.

X-Scissor seems as a great idea, as with it, Terrakion can ohko everything on team 1, so i am definitely replacing it. We won't need SD anyway as it seems.

So what do people thing is the best item for a 3 attacks + SR Terrakion? Focus Sash or LO?

My personal opinion is that we should chose Focus Sash only if 2 things happen:

1. We chose a spinner as the 6th member
2. We chose something for the 6th slot, that only Heatran can handle in team 2. This means that team 2 won't be able to play so reckless with Heatran, and will not be able to sacrifice him just to set-up SR, because then they are going to get swept by our 6th poke. Which means less chances for him to set-up SR.

@ithilanor

There is room for a spinner in the 6th slot, and even if we can't fit one in, Heatran will have a hard time setting up SR, IF we pick something in the 6th slot that only Heatran can check/counter in team 2 (for example Volcarona).

ginga - While SR Terrakion seems pretty good, we'd pretty much have to go without a spinner. Do you think Kyurem will be good enough without one?

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I think that with Roost, its needs it less, and I think that provided Team 1 plays aggressively enough, it can restrict Team 2s options enough to dissuade Stealth Rock from setting up. Sure, Heatran can switch in on Thundurus-T, after a KO but Thundurus-T did get 2 KOs in exchange, and can then freely switch out of Mamoswine with no problems, or we could predict the obvious Stealth Rock and bring in Terrakion on the move, still keeping its sash intact for 1 turn, and threatening something on Team 2 with its attacking options.

The thing is, we'll probably need to use our last pick to counter team 2's last picks. If we don't pick our spinner now, I think we'll be too constrained in our last pick, and we'll end up either with a glaring weakness to team 2's 5th/6th picks, or without a spinner.

EDIT: @ginja - makes sense that Roost helps out.

I think picking a spinner now would be a mistake, since it leaves us without Stealth Rock, and that leads to problems with Dragonite / random sashed pokemon in future. No matter what, I am fairly certain we won't be able to have SR + Spinner (Team 2 would be able to restrict those options fairly easily) so I personally would prefer we get Stealth Rock now, and then re-evaluate in our final pick.

Ithilanor, as i said to you again, choosing a spinner is not our only option for the last slot if we want to keep SR off the field. We can also choose a poke that only Heatran can handle in the opposing team (Lati@s, Volcarona, Genesect, etc), which means that the opponent will have to play very conservative with Heatran, so they won't have time to put SR, as in order to do so, Heatran would have to take a huge crippling hit, which would then leave their team open to our sixth poke. So it will be either set-up SR or let 6th member wreck the team, for team 2, which is a win-win situation for team 1.

alexwolf said:

Ithilanor, as i said to you again, choosing a spinner is not our only option for the last slot if we want to keep SR off the field. We can also choose a poke that only Heatran can handle in the opposing team (Lati@s, Volcarona, Genesect, etc), which means that the opponent will have to play very conservative with Heatran, so they won't have time to put SR, as in order to do so, Heatran would have to take a huge crippling hit, which would then leave their team open to our sixth poke. So it will be either set-up SR or let 6th member wreck the team, for team 2, which is a win-won situation for team 1.

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Ah, ok; I didn't quite get what you meant in your previous post.

One worry I have about picking Terrakion is that we'll have a pretty major Scizor weakness, with it being able to wreck Kyurem and Terrakion and deal decent damage to Meloetta and Metagross. Even if we have a check/counter as our 6th pick, will this be too much of a weakness, or is it acceptable?

If we DO take the SR + Terrakion route it either needs Life Orb or Swords Dance. Otherwise team 2 can possibly add some physical wall like Skarmory and render Terrakion Spikes bait, etc.

^ The man certainly has a point. So for now i am keeping LO as the item of choice, unless someone gives me good reason to change it.

The Donphan I posted sets up rocks AND spins.

Skore said:

The Donphan I posted sets up rocks AND spins.

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I really like Donphan but I think the defensive set is more stall oriented. I had it on my stall team and it worked really well. Especially knock off.
Don't you think a 252 Atk/252 HP with Ice shard is better? Again what itches me is another Ice/Ground coverage but since one is physical and pack priority while the other is special (and inverse stabs) I guess we will be fine.

I think it's a very good option though. And I'm tired of debates only discussing one pokemon some people already agreed about.

Well, I think SR is a necessity right now, so it doesn't surprise me that sets that can't set up SR aren't discussed much. We don't want them to pick Volcarona, Dragonite or something that without SR is brilliant, and go to town on us after a turn of set-up.

As for the Donphan Skore proposed, of course it can spin and set up SR, but it's more of a liability than an asset against Team 2 right now. Three out of four pokemons in Team 2 can hit super effectively Donphan, and Celebi can also set up NP with ease. Knock Off is useful to prevent this, of course, but it still means that 3/4 of Team 2 can get a free switch in and do whatever they want. Plus, Team 1 only has Kyurem as Water-resistance, so adding a Water-weak poke that has close to none offensive presence, and weak to Grass, Ice and Water doesn't seem a good idea at all. Not even mentioning the offensive version, since it's outsped and basically OHKOd/2HKOd by everything after Sturdy is broken.

That Tyranitar is, possibly, even worse since Sandslash sweeps us clean with a Swords Dance under its belt, and has a chance to OHKO every Team 1 member even without a SD boost with the appropriate move. Also, taking over 50% from Hydro Pump is not nice on something that's supposed to be a special wall, and Mamoswine still OHKOs with Earthquake so I don't see the need of those Def EVs.

Well, I still think Infernape is a good option for this team, so I'll suggest it again.

Infernape @ Life Orb
Trait: Blaze
252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature (+Spe / -SpD)
- Close Combat
- Stealth Rock
- Overheat
- U-Turn

Close Combat OHKOes Heatran and Mamo, while having a 81,25% chance to OHKO Rotom-W after SR, should he try to switch in. U-turn and Overheat demolish Celebi, the former having a 87,5% chance to KO after SR; and the latter being an OHKO without the need for hazards.

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I may seem unoriginal or just lazy, but I feel he's a good option. Not only does he provide rocks, he also threatens every member of Team 2. His two main counters, Gyarados and Salamence, are handled pretty well by our team - Gyarados poses no threat to Thundurus and Salamence's outrages / EQs can be tanked by Metagross or nullified by Thundy. Psychic types such as Reuniclus or Deo-D get smacked by U-turn to be threatened with Pursuit / Meteor Mash.

That Mamo is severely limiting our options, and I feel that checking it or RK'ing it will be a better option than picking something that flat out counters it (what poke actually "counters" mamo anyway? Bronzong?).