Counter This Pokemon [ginganinja vs TEMP V1]

Well, I think SR is a necessity right now, so it doesn't surprise me that sets that can't set up SR aren't discussed much. We don't want them to pick Volcarona, Dragonite or something that without SR is brilliant, and go to town on us after a turn of set-up.

As for the Donphan Skore proposed, of course it can spin and set up SR, but it's more of a liability than an asset against Team 2 right now. Three out of four pokemons in Team 2 can hit super effectively Donphan, and Celebi can also set up NP with ease. Knock Off is useful to prevent this, of course, but it still means that 3/4 of Team 2 can get a free switch in and do whatever they want. Plus, Team 1 only has Kyurem as Water-resistance, so adding a Water-weak poke that has close to none offensive presence, and weak to Grass, Ice and Water doesn't seem a good idea at all. Not even mentioning the offensive version, since it's outsped and basically OHKOd/2HKOd by everything after Sturdy is broken.

That Tyranitar is, possibly, even worse since Sandslash sweeps us clean with a Swords Dance under its belt, and has a chance to OHKO every Team 1 member even without a SD boost with the appropriate move. Also, taking over 50% from Hydro Pump is not nice on something that's supposed to be a special wall, and Mamoswine still OHKOs with Earthquake so I don't see the need of those Def EVs.

Very few viable pokes with SR resist all of those. On the top of my head: Ferrothorn resists 2, Seismitoad is immune to water (but 4x grass weak), Azelf outspeeds everyone but scarf rotom and is neutral.
Ferrothorn is the best way to lose momentum.
Aelf is Genesect bait (although it could be sashed).
Seismitoad could be fine switching into either rotom or heatran.

Edit: Heatran walls Celebi and is 4x resist to ice but is still weak to water moves.
 
Very few viable pokes with SR resist all of those. On the top of my head: Ferrothorn resists 2, Seismitoad is immune to water (but 4x grass weak), Azelf outspeeds everyone but scarf rotom and is neutral.
Ferrothorn is the best way to lose momentum.
Aelf is Genesect bait (although it could be sashed).
Seismitoad could be fine switching into either rotom or heatran.

Edit: Heatran walls Celebi and is 4x resist to ice but is still weak to water moves.

That's not the point. Terrakion has also a weakness to Grass, for example, but still doesn't care about Celebi since it can eliminate it with X-Scissor; the same is true for Mamoswine, that can only Ice Shard before being obliterated by CC. Donphan can...Knock Off them? Okay, removing their item is nice and all, but it doesn't seem remotely as threatening as Terrakion. Basically, Donphan cannot force switches like Terrakion and take advantage of that to set up SR; quite the opposite, being complete set-up bait, it allows things to switch in with relative impunity (Knock Off isn't that dangerous for a NP Celebi, for example) and is forced out itself by the threat of what switches in. This is highly undesirable in an offensive team since it means you lost all your momentum just to set up SR. Plus, the fact that the only physical threat in their team is Mamoswine, that can hit Donphan with a STAB SE attack that doesn't care about Sturdy, is not helping, either.

@ ClubbingSealCub: Infernape works very similar to Terrakion, the things that differentiate them are: Infernape is able to U-Turn, while Terrakion is just more threatening in general, it's able to KO Meloetta 100% of the times after SR, while Infernape fails to do so, and it doesn't scare us away from Politoed, at least not as much as Infernape does. I'm a big Infernape fan, but I feel that Terrakion is better right now.
 
@ ClubbingSealCub: Infernape works very similar to Terrakion, the things that differentiate them are: Infernape is able to U-Turn, while Terrakion is just more threatening in general, it's able to KO Meloetta 100% of the times after SR, while Infernape fails to do so, and it doesn't scare us away from Politoed, at least not as much as Infernape does. I'm a big Infernape fan, but I feel that Terrakion is better right now.

The problem with SR Terrakion is that Celebi stops it cold unless you pack X-scissor instead of Sdance. Infernape can, for now, spam Close Combat with little to no fear after it's switched in and then U-turn out when Celebi pokes it's little onion head.

EDIT: Well, Terrakion can spam CC until Celebi comes out and smack it with Xscissor, but I thought the reason for using Terrakion was to use SD and CC / SE with it. Besides, 'nape can mash physical walls with overheat too
 
The problem with SR Terrakion is that Celebi stops it cold unless you pack X-scissor instead of Sdance. Infernape can, for now, spam Close Combat with little to no fear after it's switched in and then U-turn out when Celebi pokes it's little onion head.

EDIT: Well, Terrakion can spam CC until Celebi comes out and smack it with Xscissor, but I thought the reason for using Terrakion was to use SD and CC / SE with it. Besides, 'nape can mash physical walls with overheat too
Terrakion doesn't need SD at all. He ohkoes everything at team 2 as of now, and if they put a physical wall, then that's nice, no dangerous offensive threats for us to cover. What physical wall can they put anyway? Slowbro? They already have a water type, and 3 out of our 4 members currently murder him. Skarmory? He gets 2hkoed from CC. Gliscor? Again pretty good handled by our team.

Also i don't think that Infernape is a good option at all, as Volcarona easily sets-up on him, which means that we would need a strong check for it in the last slot. Gyarados also sets-up very easily on him, and we also need a strong check for Gyarados in the last slot. Keldeo is another huge pain in the ass for the team, as it can easily take 1 CC from Infernape, even if it doesn't win the speed tie and either ohko Infernape or set-up and sweep team 1. So we will need a strong check for it too. Why Terrakion fares better you ask? Because if he wins the speed tie he can actually ohko Keldeo with CC after SR 50% of the times, and even if even if he doesn't he will die after from LO recoil (if he has LO). And Garchomp could also destroy the team, and can easily tank one CC from Infernape and OHKO back, while again Terrakion deals so much more damage with CC. So if we pick Infernape, we would have to check Volcarona, Garchomp, Keldeo and Gyarados in one slot. We would also be unable to use Politoed, which is possible if we go for Terrakion, and could greatly benefit the team. Finally Infernape is too easily walled for my liking by so much mons, unlike Terrakion. Tentacruel, Dragonite, Gyarados, Salamence, Lati@s, Jellicent, take your pick. Oh and after using Overheat once, you are set-up bait for anything that resists Fighting and isn't weak to fire.
 
BROSTime's Rotom-W

Pocket's Deoxys-D

alexwolf's Terrakion

HolyAvatar's Nidoking

Skore's Donphan

pieguy13's Tyranitar

ClubbingSealCub's Infernape

The real meaty discussion starts HERE and continues until this post. You will want to read those posts to get a firm grasp on the reason behind each submission. We are getting down to the line and the choices are more crucial than ever, so I don't want anyone blindly voting.

Vote for one Pokemon. Post the name of the poster of the Pokemon you dish to vote for in bold. For example, if I wanted to vote for BROSTime's Rotom-W, my post would look like this:
BrosTIME

Don't submit any other sets and don't complain about any the nominations. If you don't like something, don't vote for it, simple as that. I'll wait until a reasonable amount of votes are in. Have fun!
 
alexwolf

EDIT

fuckin
uvod2.jpg
 
alexwolf: 9
Pocket: 1

All right so after a near-unanimous decision, we have Team 1's 5th member! This Pokemon is well known two dangerous STABS and fierce Attack stat. On this team, he also acts as a hazard setter and certainly doesn't mind Celebi, who would otherwise wall this set pretty hard if it weren't for one move...

Terrakion @ Life Orb
669.png

252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly nature
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- X-Scissor
- Stealth Rock

A big shout-out to alexwolf for his excellent submission! Also, congrats to ginganinja on his mods and for earning the spot to be Team 1's battler in the final best of 3 exhibition match! Now, we are hitting the home stretch as we head back to Team 2 to pick its final two members. Please make wise decisions since these final Pokemon are more important than ever. Submit one set including the Pokemon's name, item, sprite, ability, nature, EVs, and moves. Do not use any slashes. If you have any objections to or suggestions for others' sets, now is the time to speak up! Debate to your hearts' content, just keep things civil.
 
Hm, nice pick, that Terrakion. Too bad I missed voting. Since I submitted half of team 2 as of now, why not give it another shot?

It's quite obvious that their choice of Terrakion and Kyurem has made them severely priority weak- as they are both weak to Mach Punch and Bullet Punch. Meloetta and Metagross won't really help, as neither actually resist fighting, and Thundurus is too frail. To capitalize on this, I believe team 2's next pokemon should be none other than SD Breloom.

286.gif

Breloom @ Life Orb
Adamant nature
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
~Spore
~Mach Punch
~Bullet Seed
~Swords Dance

Mach Punch is an OHKO to Terrakion and Kyurem- securing Breloom as our revenge killer against those two pokemon. After an SD, Mach Punch cleanly 2HKO's Meloetta, Metagross, and Thundurus iirc (will chech later) Bullet Seed hits Meloetta hard on the switch in, but really id you SD on the switch that's a whole lot better. Spore shuts down choice locked Metagross so you can set up on it.

Breloom is not only a great revenger but also a great mindgamer- because of the few pokemon that can wall it successfully. It has great synergy with the team- Mamoswine handles Gliscor, Flying types, Dragons, and Grass types for Loom, and Loom demolishes water and Rock types. Spore is general a great support move, buying time for Celebi.
 
Well looking at the way team 1 is structured now, and if there is still the possibility of rain I really think that Scizor is quite a good option. I understand that these last two picks are crucial as we want to cover as many of our bases as possible, and I think that a standard CB Scizor would work quite well to fill out team 2.

scizor.png


Scizor @ Choice Band
Technician
Adamant, 252 ATK, 248 HP, 8 SPE
Bullet Punch
U-Turn
Superpower
Pursuit

So the main ideas behind this Scizor are pretty well known, come in and U-Turn out for momentum, or BP for a revenge kill. Thanks to his typing Scizor can also take hits fairly decently, so there is some endurance when compared to other posssible revenge killers/priority users for this slot. BP alone is incredibly effective against team 1, which has an 18% chance to OHKO Kyurem before rocks, 100% after rocks. BP also flat out OHKOs Terrakion which is quite nice. Againt Meloetta-A BP is a solid 2HKO (I think, will edit this when I can look at my calcs), however U-Turn will obviously be the move of choice. Thundurus-T will also not particularily appreciate taking banded BPs, being a clean 2HKO after rocks. Currently the only member of team 1 that can really take any of Scizors attacks is Metagross, but we have Mamo/Rotom for him.

If team 1 elects Politoed for their final slot, Scizors only weakness gets halved, which only benefits us, not that they have any fire attacks anyway. On my phone so i'll have to add exact calcs regarding what sort of hits Sciz can take, and exactly how much U-Turn deals to Meloetta-A. Also apologies for any spelling mistakes :d
 
620.png

Mienshao@ Life Orb
Trait: Regenerator
4HP/252Atk/252Spe
Nature: Jolly
Moves:
~Fake Out
~High Jump Kick
~U-turn
~Stone Edge

This Mienshao can safely take out Thundurus-T with a Stone Edge, U-turn on Meloetta to gain momentum, take out Terrakion with HJK. Fake Out allows us to revenge weakened mons , or play mind games with the mon that is switching in
 
I now bring you the most powerful of dragons in the OU metagame!
S_haxorus.gif

Haxorus@Lum Berry
Trait: Mold Breaker
EV's: 252/Attack/200 Speed/ 36HP
Jolly Nature
-Dragon Dance
-Outrage
-Aqua Tail
-Superpower

Obvious EV spread and ability are obvious. Jolly to outspeed non-scarfed base 95's. Lum Berry to get through Outrage confusion or random status. This Haxorus is mostly used for late-game sweeping so it really shouldn't be out early in the match at all. After a boost, the only thing that can stop this thing are pokes who already boosted their speed or base scarfers who both have a speed boosting nature and at least a base 98 Speed stat. As of right now, nothing can outspeed him after a boost and the only thing that lives an attack is Metagross who gets 2HKO'd pretty easily.
 
205.gif

Forretress (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SAtk
Relaxed Nature (+Def, -Spd)
IVs: 2 Speed
- Volt Switch
- Rapid Spin
- Gyro Ball
- Hidden Power Ice

Team 2 is ridiculously weak to Terrakion right now. Not to mention, it has no spinner. Forretress team two to fix both of these problems. With Max HP and Max Defense, Forretress can stop Terrakion handily, proceeding to KO it with Gyro Ball. It can also Rapid Spin Terrakion's Stealth RockHidden Power Ice will deter Thundurus from switch in in whenever it wants to, especially because it will only have a couple of opportunities to switch in due to Stealth Rockl this becomes even more of an issue for team 1 due to Mamoswine, who can easily revenge kill it. Forretress also has great synergy for this team, Heatran being able to take any Fire-type attacks should team 1 choose to use any, and Celebi being able to take Electric-attacks from Thundurus-T. Volt Switch provides good momentum.
 
212.png


Scizor @ Iron Plate
EVs: 248 HP / 92 Atk / 124 SpD / 44 Spe
Nature: Adamant
Ability: Technician
- Swords Dance
- Bullet Punch
- Bug Bite
- Roost / U-turn (i want some discussion on this one)

If this Scizor is played right, it can easily sweep team 1 with no effort at all. 44 Speed evs are needed to outspeed Metagross and OHKO it at +4. 92 Atk evs are needed to ohko Metagross at +4 after SR, and the rest put into HP and SpD. Iron Plate is needed in order to OHKO Thundurus-T at +4 after SR, while also dealing huge damage to Terrakion, when unboosted. Now let's see some calcs:

- +4 BP vs Thundurus-T: 76.25 - 89.96%, OHKO after SR
- +2 BP vs Thundurus-T: 51.17 - 60.2%
- +4 Bug Bite vs Metagross: 93.95 - 110.71%, OHKO after SR
- +2 BP vs Meloetta: 83.57 - 98.53%, 68.75% chance of OHKO after SR, and - at +4 BP obviously ohkoes even without SR
- +0 BP vs Terrakion: 78.39 - 92.59%

As you can see if Scizor gets at +4 it easily sweeps with SR on the field. If you are wondering how will Scizor get at +4 then these calcs may seem interesting to you:

- Kyurem's Earth Power vs Scizor: 32.06 - 37.9%, 3HKO
- Terrakion's CC vs Scizor: 73.76 - 87.46%, never a OHKO, even with SR
- Meloetta's Tbolt vs Scizor: 40.52 - 47.81%, never a 2HKO, 54.69% chance to 2HKO after SR
- Thundurus-T's Thunderbolt vs Scizor: 66.18 - 78.13%, never a OHKO
- Metagross's Meteor Mash vs Scizor: 40.23 - 47.52%, never a OHKO, 52.34% chance to 2HKO after SR

What does this mean? If Scizor gets in after Kyurem kills something, or after a Volt Switch from Rotom-W, then Scizor sweeps, as Kyurem cannot 2HKO, and no memeber of team 1 can OHKO, so no matter what Scizor gets 2 SD and sweeps. If Scizor gets in after Metagross kills something with Pursuit or BP, then same scenario with Kyurem. If it kills something with MM, and if SR is off the field for our team, then Scizor can get 2 SDs and sweep. However if SR is on the field, then Scizor would need Roost to avoid the 2hko, as MM cannot do more than 50% to Scizor, which means that after the first SD, Scizor can Roost up to have enough health to survive a second MM, and then get the second SD boost. Same with Meloetta. If SR is off the field and she kills something, then Scizor sweeps, as he cannot be 2hkoed. If SR is on the field, then Scizor will do the same thing that he did for Metagross's MM, and when he has 2 SDs he will sweep.

So as you can see Scizor can set-up extremely easily and go to town. The only reason i put U-turn as a choice, is if team 1 picks Magnezone (unlikely) we can U-turn out, and generally for some early game scouting. I generally think that Roost is more important, to be able to set-up on Meloetta and Metagross after SR, but if we pack some Rapid Spin support, then U-turn would be better. One last think to note is that SR is vital for Scizor's success (or maybe not, as we only need 6.25% prior damage on Metagross, and 24% on Thundurus-T, so at late game they could already be weakened) so we could either use a second SR user in the last slot, or use a poke that will force team 1 to use something that Heatran can set-up on (for example if we use SpecsKeldeo in the last slot, then team 1 would have to use something such as Lati@s or Celebi, which would give to our Heatran a set-up oportunity).
 
Well, I was going to post a priority user, but it's not necessary anymore, I see. Many suggestions are great, so I'm going to give my opinions, before suggesting something new.

286.png

Breloom is brilliant, carries Spore, scares out Terrakion and Kyurem and hits hard basically anything. The only concern I have is that it cannot set up SD safely on nothing, since it's OHKOd by, respectively, Psychic from Meloetta, HP Ice from Thundurus, Ice Beam from Kyurem and CC from Terrakion (Metagross threatens to 2HKO with any move not named Pursuit, and since you don't OHKO with +2 Mach Punch you must Spore it before attempting SD). This means you must rely on prediction to set up your SD, while the Scizor set posted is much better at gathering boosts. However, Breloom retains key advantages in more immediate power available, Spore and a resistance to Water - which seems extremely valuable if they pick Choice Scarf Politoed as their last pick (althoug it still takes over 70% from it, and with LO recoil it can mean an OHKO regardless).

212.png

Scizor is again a wonderful suggestion. Both Bulky SD and Band have their own advantages. Band is perfect to scout, dealing over 40% to Metagross and Thundurus with U-Turn (so the Steel-resists are worn down quickly), has plenty of power readily available, and completes the infamous, archetypical VoltTurn core with Scarf Rotom-W. However, the fact that they can exploit a Choice locked Bullet Punch in many ways (Metagross, Thundurus gets a "free" switch-in, and an eventual Choice Scarf Politoed can do the same, and threaten to OHKO with Hydro Pump) can be a letdown. Also, if we want to pick a set-up sweeper, we would have only one slot left, so we would be hard pressed to find something that isn't ruined too hard by Terrakion, has decent type synergy with our team and performs good against their team. THis is not too much of a concern, but still something to be considered.
Bulky SD from alexwolf is very interesting, and probably one of my favorite entry so far. It just needs a bit of damage on the Steel resists, and can easily dismantle their team with +2 Bullet Punches. Roost means easy set-up on Kyurem, so I won't dismiss it easily; however, U-Turn is very useful in my opinion to weaken common switch ins and for general scouting. I once ran a SD | Roost | BP | U-Turn set that performed quite well, I'm not sure it's appropriate here since it means you have to switch out after a SD if Metagross is still up (although it would be a free switch in for Rotom, so not that bad anyway), but it can be an idea nonetheless.

620.png

Mienshao is quite underwhelming. Can take out Thundurus, of course, but it's outspeed and eaten for breakfast by Terrakion. It also fails to OHKO Metagross, which can be extremely dangerous since it takes like 65% average from Bullet Punch. It also has basically zero opportunities to switch in, since anything can OHKO him with the appropriate move. It's not bad, but in my opinion we're just better to get a strong priority or something that cannot be taken out so easily.

612.png

Haxorus is basically in the same boat of Mienshao, being OHKOd by the whole Team 1 (Meloetta OHKOs 75% of the times with Psychic after SR). It's also slower, thus being unable to outspeed Thundurus, which is another big letdown. If it gets a DD it destroys Team 2, but it cannot achieve it, so it's a kinda moot point in my opinion.

205.png

I'm confused about the Forretress suggestion. ShakeItUp said that spinning is helpful for Kyurem/Thundurus (so I guess it would suggest Forretress for Team 1) but also to counter Terrakion (that would hint at Forretress being on Team 2), so I'm not really sure if he/she did some mistake or if it's just me not getting it correctly... Okay, my fault. Still, Team 2 already have a SR user (you could add Spikes instead, for example), and Forretress doesn't really cover our FIghting weakness: LO Terrakion almost 2HKOs with CC after SR, so if Forretress took some residual damage, it's gone.


Right now, Scizor or Breloom are the best looking suggestion overall; I'm really unsure about what it's best for Team 2 between CB Scizor or SD Loom/Scizor, and I will probably support one of those. However, I had an idea that keeps coming out, and I would really like feedback on that since it seems really good, so I'm going to suggest it anyway.

645-therian.gif


Landorus-T @ Life Orb
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Naughty (+Atk / -SpD) (Adamant is an option, Naughty gives 100% chance to KO Gliscor)
- Rock Polish
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Hidden Power Ice (/Fly for Virizion?)

Landorus-T brings to our team the Fighting resist we badly needed; not only, but it can basically sweep Team 1 clean without any problem. Come in while Terrakion CCs / X-Scissor Celebi / Set up SR, or after Metagross killed something with any attack not named Meteor Mash, and set up Rock Polish. Then the fun starts:

Earthquake vs 0/0 Meloetta: 313-370 (91.78 - 108.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Stone Edge vs 0/4 Thundurus-T: 450-530 (150.5 - 177.25%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Earthquake vs 252/4 Metagross: 404-476 (110.98 - 130.76%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Stone Edge vs 52/0 Kyurem: 370-436 (91.58 - 107.92%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Earthquake vs 4/0 Terrakion: 554-654 (170.98 - 201.85%) -- guaranteed OHKO

As you can see, it just needs SR onto the field to destroy Team 1 right now. It also outspeed any Scarfed pokemon up to 120 base speed after a Rock Polish (Scarf Tornadus-T trolls him by one point, but noone uses it anyway), so unless they pick Scarf Jolteon or something, the only thing it fears is Ice/Water type priority attacks.

I'm probably still leaning towards a priority user, but I think my Lando-T can still have its own merits. Maybe a Scizor or Breloom / Lando-T combination can be good, giving us solid priority and good sweeping pontential. If your feedback is in that sense, I will just repost the set the next stage and vote for a priority user right now.
 
Time to comment on the pokes we have so far...

SD Breloom is a pretty nice poke against Team 1, as it can threaten every single poke in it (even Metagross with Spore). However it is very frail, has almost zero switch-in opportunities, and is very reliant on prediction.

Mienshao and Haxorus are bad, for multiple reasons. First of all they do nothing to solve team 2's biggest problem, Terrakion. They don't offer a lot to the team, offering zero defensive synergy (we want a Fighting resist badly), while also not offering many things in the offensive department too. Haxorus cannot set-up anywhere and gets outsped by 2 of team's members, and cannot ohko Metagross, while getting ohkoed in return. So Haxorus can only come in after Meloetta or Kyurem kill something, which is very limiting. Mienshao is pretty much the same except it can outspeed Thundurus-T, but it can't sweep like Haxorus can, so it is even more useless.

CB Scizor is good, but it would be better to not have choice items, except from a Scarf user, as this would allow to team 1 to set-up with a threatening poke that we may be unable to handle at late-game.

Rock Polish Landorus-T is ok, as it can very sweep once it sets-up, and also provides a decent switch in to Terrakion. And i say decent because iirc, it is 2hkoed by SE, even after Intimidate. However how often will it be able to set-up? Not often, considering how few set-up opportunities it gets, practically the only opportunity it gets is against Metagross locked into the wrong move. It is also outsped by everything except Metagross in the team, which is not good. It is an ok option, but not my favourite.

Finally Forretress is a very nice option (my favourite so far, except mine), however we have to keep in mind that Forretress is set-up on by Kyurem, as Kyurem can easily stall out Gyro Ball with Sub, Roost and Pressure, which means that every time Forretress comes in, Kyurem will walk out with a Sub, unless we play very carefully. And a Kyurem behind a Sub is a terror for our team currently, as it can 2hko everything in the team. Just something to keep in mind... Otherwise it is almost excellent (my Scizor is excellent)!

And a note to everyone that may want to post a poke. Be sure that the poke you chose checks/counters Terrakion, as this is the major problem of team 2 right now. Everything that doesn't do this will be a bad suggestion, imo.
 
Back
Top