SYMPTOMATIC OF A GREATER ILL
Join Date: Jul 2010
Originally Posted by Fat Pocket
This is so cool; will definitely participate in this :D
In my mind Sleep Clause has the highest chance of being resolved. Darkrai and Smeargle are the main offenders here, and Sleep Talk or a Lum / Chesto Berry can really screw them over. Revenge-killing them with priority or Scarfers are always possible, too.
Someone in the other thread mentioned about SubNP Darkrai becoming intolerable, but I honestly don't see it. For instance, Sleep Talk Darkrai beats it to a pulp.
EDIT: Hydration Manaphy may have a reason to see more usage, too
EDIT2: syrim, I don't see Scarf Darkrai all that threatening. It's locked in Dark Void, so it's either forced to switch out or use Dark Void and let the Sleep Talker land a hit.
As syrim said, Darkrai being around with no sleep clause around will undoubtedly call for a metagame shift. Choice Scarf users face heavy prediction, Scarf Darkrai will be an excellent anti-lead, etc.
Another problem is that traditional anti-Darkrai leads like Lum Tyranitar can in fact be worked around with LO Darkrai, which OHKOes with Focus Blast. Highly specialized leads such as Chesto Berry Thunder Wave Kyogre and Groudon may return, and while such specialized shifts might be undesirable
, the main question is their uncompetitiveness. As it stands I can see Darkrai being extremely annoying and having the potential to rip apart unprepared teams, but the same can be said of Kyogre and Extreme Killer Arceus; it's just something one should prepare for.
Originally Posted by Fat Scorpio
OHKO clause should definitely be retested. For one, all the OHKO moves have an accuracy of 30%. THIRTY. PERCENT. Luck is definitely NOT on your side if you use these without a Wide/Zoom Lens. So, considering that, let's see what Pokemon in Ubers can use this:
-Dugtrio, which doesn't have the bulk to try twice
-Gastrodon, but Toxic is more effective, if slower.
-Groudon, definitely has the physical bulk, but Special bulk is iffy. Besides, attacking is more efficient.
-Hippowdon, much like Groudon in this regard.
-Landorus, but his bulk is iffy.
-Mamoswine, but bulk is sub-par, so it shouldn't take the gamble
-...no one in Ubers.
-Bisharp, but defenses are iffy.
-Gliscor, which COULD abuse this with Poison Heal, but Toxic or Earthquake is better.
-Abomasnow, but... it's Abomasnow.
-Kyogre, but it's better off just Water Spout-ing everything to death.
So as you can see, OHKO moves are actually either outclassed or put on Pokemon that won't have the defenses to try multiple times. Factor in the low PP, and you can see that OHKO moves are actually not so great.
As for the other clauses:
-Evasion Clause could be easily abused with Baton Pass. So no.
-As much as I want Glaile or Octillery to see some use, sadly, I'll have to say no to Moody Clause for one reason: Smeargle. It can just wait to get a ton of stat boosts, pass it on to something far more powerful ,then sit back and relax while their now-untouchable teammate KO's the entire opposing team.
-Sleep Clause I'll also have to say no to. Maybe in Gen 4 it could be lifted, but with Gen 5's new Sleep mechanics, Darkrai or Smeargle could make an entire team completely helpless.
-Species Clause is also a no. I don't want to face 6 Specs Kyogres. DX
Your dismissal of OHKO clause isn't really on the money at all. My post here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpos...42&postcount=2
goes into some depth about the viability of OHKO moves in practice. Dugtrio may gain a niche at taking out support Pokemon it previously could not, such as Chansey and Blissey (51% to KO for two tries). Lapras is extremely bulky and has Water Absorb. I could go on, but there are definite niches to the usage of the move, the main being dominating slower defensive teams which rely mainly on residual damage and phazing to win. Defensive approaches to dealing with Pokemon having one of these moves in their arsenal, such as using Toxic or chipping away at a Pokemon's HP give a large window of opportunity to land an OHKO move, and the chance is actually in favour of the OHKO user.
Jibaku's post explains some of the foreseeable problems with using evasion boosting moves. The most important thing to take away from it is opportunity cost and movepool limitation. Dedicating one slot to a situational move (and arguably much more situational than an OHKO move), in addition to using turns where one could do things with much larger utility, such as setting up Stealth Rock or a Dragon Dance, would often prove to be the wiser move. I will not deny outright that there are possibilities to the usefulness of this move, as you said, perhaps with Baton Pass the opportunities to abuse evasion may prove to be troublesome. However, I doubt they would be gamebreaking, as specialization can and will occur to handle it if it becomes out of hand. Again, as Jibaku rightly said, Perish Song is a hard stop to this strategy, and there will be a few turns where one has to rely on luck not to get phazed out or KOed.
As I explained in my previous post sleep abuse would be annoying, but is far from completely unmanageable, a team of 6 Darkrai's (should Sleep Clause be removed) could easily be swept by Stealth Rock + Lum Berry Extreme Killer, just to give an example. One forgets that distribution of sleep is limited to basically just Darkrai, a frail, not overly powerful threat (80 BP STAB move) that has several established strong checks, Manaphy, RestTalk Kyogre (RestTalk Ho-Oh? Could be a thing). I believe the tier has the suitable tools to adapt to the removal of sleep clause, as annoying as it might seem at first.
Originally Posted by Fat superbadd
I don't think that's true. Ubers in gen 1 was nothing but mew(2). So you can safely call it a ban list. In gen 2, it was given the addition of 3 more pokemon. With really only 5 ubers, it's still a banlist. It really didn't become an actual tier until gen4, IMO. So we should always treat it like a banlist. I always found it ironic that something would be banned from ubers.
No, Ubers is a tier. We treat it like a tier.
Originally Posted by Fat Aquazz
While I am relatively new to contributing to any decisions and the Uber territory isn't my strong suit, i'd love to throw my two cents in, if only because it will make the tier become more approachable as a tier of its own, rather than a place where all banned pokemon lie. My contributions will be in terms of the following clause, that way if you're not interested in the following you can skip right on to the next post.
-OHKO Clause: I feel that allowing OHKO will increase the use of lesser tier pokemon due to the combination of [Next hit is Insured to Hit]Move+[One Hit Knock Out]Move. This will in turn lead to a lot more usage of Prankster+Taunt or simply put, fast taunters; for the purpose of insuring the OHKO is left up to chance, where it belong. Now, going of on this assumption, this will also increase in the use of Substitute and by association Baton Passed Substitutes, my reasoning being that, if memory serves correctly, a OHKO move is nullified by Subs. My point from all of this speculation? The Uber tier will move from one of the titans of Pokemon duking it out in pure brawn to one of a lot more calculation and timing, punishing rash decisions with instant death, and also putting those who take the time or need the time to set up on edge, where every turn could be their last making all boosting for naught. My last point I would like to make is that my assumption is purely that; an assumption. I don't expect people to take their Timid Mewtwos and turn tail at the sight of Little Timmy's Seaking with Horn Drill, but it is something to take into consideration when planning your next move.
-Moody Clause: Now, before I'm burned at the stake, let me make it clear that I agree with the notion that Moody is purely a luck-based ability that doesn't belong in competitive play. However, if it were to be considered then I would like to make the proposal to have one limitation: Ban Smeargle with Moody. This would go against all rhyme or reason to ban something in Ubers, but at the same it greatly limits the risk of having intensive and unorthodox stats boosts being Baton Passed to a dangerous pokemon. All there is to worry about from that point is Octillery(And Remoraid), Glalie(And Snorunt), Bibarel(...and Bidoof), which by all reasonable means are not threats in Ubers, regardless if they're boosted to the point of their hardest possible hits without ever being hit. It will most likely not happen, but if Garchomp can return to the OverUsed Tier with Sand Veil limitation, maybe limiting Smeargle can make the difference. Besides, who else but the Artisan Dog Pokemon to be the first to be banned from the best of the best?
-Species Clause: The only reason I think this should even be discussed in any way is simply this idea: There a Pokemon that because they have to chose between one move or the other, can make or break that Pokemon, given the situation of course. Now, what if you had that Pokemon, but had one for every possible set, covering their own weaknesses? It would be as if you've walked onto their territory with your rag tag team of titans, only to be obliterated by say...6 Arceus or Kyruem( White, Black, and Original for arguments sake). I think it's a good idea to keep this specific clause exactly where it stands.
-Sleep Clause: I won't even dabble into fancy ways of putting as it's been said bluntly before: Smeargle and Darkrai will be putting entire teams to sleep before you even have time to cry for warm milk and a blanket. A big no from me, and it should be from everyone else.
There's my contributions, I hope it gave everyone who read it a tiny bit to think about, and if so, please feel free to shoot holes into my predictions and theories, i'd love to hear arguments. I'm also beginning to think that this Suspect Testing will be the influence that pushes me into really playing Ubers as apposed to occasionally.
OHKO moves are certainly not meant to be used with Lock On or Mind Reader, as it is nullified by switching out. Of course, in theory this could be decent for shuffling the opponents team, but then why not use Roar? There is no need for a fast Taunt to shut down Mind Reader or Lock On at all.
It goes against the philosophy of Ubers to ban a Pokemon, or even a combination (such as Sand Veil + Garchomp). I doubt Moody would be allowed, but if it were to be it'd most likely be allowed in its entirety; if it is proven to be a competitive addition to the tier then it should be considered as a whole, including all of its (ab)users.
The most notable thing about species clause is the potential to bring 6 Arceus formes. No other Pokemon can compare in versatility, strength, and utility. Any team of any other 6 Pokemon can be obliterated by any competent Ubers team simply by the virtue of no one Pokemon except for Arceus being able to check the biggest threats in the Ubers tier, i.e. all other Pokemon apart from Arceus have exploitable weaknesses. It will, however, be interesting to see pure double up strategies, such as double Extreme Killer or DD Rayquaza, perhaps with minor changes in their moveset to deal with variance in the opponents' lineup.
I've addressed sleep clause, but basically one shouldn't be too quick to jump onto the 'completely broken' train. Consider that having to pack specific Pokemon to deal with a single threat is no foreign behaviour to us, and in fact is common practice.
Originally Posted by Fat Shadowhand
the only one i see there that i do not consider completely broken or completely luck based is (prepping myself for the fires of hell to rain down from you guys) the evasion clause. Now just let me explain, it is not one of those broken luck things. In the current metagame, garchomp is allowed with sand veil, which gives it a free 20% evasion without attacking. One evasion boost would give the pokemon 75%, not much difference. In fact the chance for hax taking effect are the exact same as paralysis, a very commonplace strategy, and this would not even lower the opponents speed. it seems silly that one form of hax is allowed and not the other.
As for moody, this is just plain luck of the draw. If you get the right boosts, you are immortal, if you get the wrong ones, you're death fodder. Sleep clause being removed would start to centralize the metagame on things like choice scarf darkrai and breloom. OHKO are rather pointless in a homogeneous-level environment, due to the 30% accuracy. The entire point of bans/clauses are to keep a metagame fresh and full of diversity, so removing the species clause is just counter-productive.
I hope in this explanation i have made my case, after testing i may find some of my views wrong, but only time will tell.
The entire point of bans is to remove what makes the game uncompetitive. NOT what makes it 'healthy', whatever your definition of that may be. If you haven't noticed the Ubers metagame is in fact heavily centralized around a few dominant Pokemon / playstyles, releasing sleep into it may shift it, but is no cause to decry it as ban-worthy (as I have previously explained).
I actually feel that evasion's statistics are its lesser focus, the greater concern is opportunity cost in lost turns and moveset sacrifices.
Originally Posted by Fat CooltrainerAlan
While I don't play Ubers, I only see a problem with Evasion Clause being unbanned. Evasion is to OP and Blissey would be the best Pokemon in the game.
Seems interesting... I wonder what th conclusion will be?
What is a +6 evasion Blissey going to do? It's just going to be PP stalled, even if it has Calm Mind it can only afford to run mono-coverage if it wants a Softboiled.
Originally Posted by Fat Faint
I just want to point out that I can honestly see Ubers working with OHKO clause allowed. I can't imagine many people that would use it, and the most I can see would be Smeargle with Spore + Sheer Cold + Lock On. This would only be troublesome for stall, but pretty much everything else in the metagame outspeeds it, so it shouldn't be a problem.
Yeah Lock On ain't no thang.