Counter that Pokemon - Mk III [Team 2 won!]

I just want to point out real quick that I was writing my post as you were yours so I edited mine to include an answer to yours. (Just FYI since it's an edit on another page)

The idea behind Sub is that, like RP, it allows you to get past Heracross. (who is OHKO'd by SE) The advantage of Sub though is that it punishes you less for a mispredict. RP has to be set up on a predicted switch-out so a mispredict costs you Terrak. However, Sub does the same thing (Terrak outruns everything except Heracross who dies popping the Sub) except that if you mispredict and the OP decides to stay in and attack you only lose 25%. The only downside I can see so far is when Terrak tries to set up on a locked Megahorn. With RP he either profits from the switch out and prevent any future attempt to revenge or it outspeeds after tanking a Megahorn and OHKO's right after. Sub on the other hand has to be used on a switch out to be effective as if it is used when Terrak stays in then you lose an extra 25% KOing Heracross as it pops your Sub. Even a healthy Terrakion only has enough HP to make 3-4 more attacks after that mispredict. Although that mostly means 3-4 kills so that isn't so bad and a choice locked Megahorn is less common than a predicted switch out. I'm kinda up in the air on this but I'm leaning towards Sub.

252 Atk Heracross Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Terrakion: 104-123 (32.19 - 38.08%) -- 96.63% chance to 3HKO
 
Melee Mewtwo I wasn't saying scizor isn't a good counter to Kyurem-B, it is. What I'm saying is that now heracross has been chosen I wouldn't want to double on bug. It'd make team 2 more heatran weak and then they get beat by heatran. If we get team 1 to switch in rotom to much, their only fire resist, then heatran can setup a sub vs Kyurem and do a ton of damage. If we add a scarf Kyurem then this makes it very hard for team 1 to counter as the only steels in ou that are neutral to fire are empoleon and immune, heatran. They're relying on rotom-W a lot and if they did pick scizor all team 2 would have to do is beat rotom-w and it's pretty much gg.
 
Just a few things I want to point out

Double typing isn't auto-bad, it's very situational as it depends on what the two same type mons do. For example, Terrak and TTar share a rock typing but that is almost never a problem as they have a different list of checks/counters and serve different purposes. That said doubling on a role is something to be avoided as it wastes a team space to accomplish essentially the same thing.

As for Scizor, Superpower + U-Turn makes Heatran a poor answer and is not a pick we want to push for as ScizorRotom works really well. Pain Split, bulk, and lefties helps keep Rotom healthy enough to tank the Fire Blasts long enough for it to serve as a Heatran counter throughout the game.
 
Oh boy, the amount of discussion on whether Terrakion should have a AB or not, a Sub instead of RP/SD...

I personally think Terrakion is a great choice for any team that is being constructed, but I feel like it would round out better if it were our 6th choice instead of the current choice based on my submission of Specs Latios. Like I said in my post, if Latios is chosen, a dedicated special wall will have to be implemented for team 1's final member because DM OHKO's their team right now. Many of Latios's coverage moves gain a few OHKO's/2HKO's with Stealth rock on the field. A pokemon that can absolutely decimate special walls and lay down SR is Terrakion itself. Hypothetically speaking, if we took the Specs Latios/SR Terrakion, what could Team 1 possibly do to counter these two threats AND maintain balance to cover the rest of Team 2?

I honestly wish I could reply to everything directly being said on the forum, but so much has been covered in such a short time it would probably be time to vote by the time I could post a full on reply.
 
Yes, it is true Terrakion has a harder time setting up. However, it doesn't need SD/RP to threaten the 5/6 of Team 1 with a OHKO. (it needs them for late game cleaning and for whatever pick is chosen as number 6) These boosts may require prediction (though not always thanks to Choice Megahorn) the OP has to have near perfect prediction to avoid a nasty position. The player can either A) switch directly to the Terrak counter to force it out or B) stay in to hit it as it sets up. If team 1 pulls off the former then they successfully dealt with the threat for the time being, if they predict the later then they KO'd Terrakion. However, if they mispredict with option A and Terrakion boosted their counter risks a OHKO (if it didn't it would be pointless to boost) and if they mispredict option B then they just threw one of their carefully selected 6 Pokemon.

I'm not seeing your logic, Heracross revenges Terrak as Keldeo revenges Landorus. If they don't RP on a predicted switch (Lando doesn't have free set-up on anything on Team 2 either) then they aren't fast enough to beat the Scarfmon. (and the feasibility was comparing the ease with which Terrak gets past its checks/counters vs Lando who has to ask for a lot to get his sweep off)

He doesn't need the boosts to begin OHKOing the 5 current selections for Team 1, however it needs them if it plans on cleaning late game or wall breaking the counter chosen for the 6th slot of Team 1.

Nape can't switch-in. I don't know why you disregard that disadvantage as it means it has to scrap a mon every time Terrak comes in to force it out. (which Team 1 is already doing every time Hydreigon shows up)
Click to expand...

I'll take this and say what I think.

You can't compare Heracross ability to revenge kill Terrak and Keldeo's ability to revenge kill Landorus.
Simply because Landorus will have RP easily, it can just stay in and take a hit it's not "free" but it's totally possible, whereas Terrakion can not do that, thus, won't get this RP.
Substitute can be better for that too.
But I believe that I explained why I believe makes it more viable for the reasons you also mentionned.

By the way, Landorus does not ask so much, Team 1 could definitely pick a pokemon putting a big pressure on Celebi. A pokemon with Fight coverage, and a SE move for Keldeo should do it.

My point with Nape is that you can't say "Nape does not switch in so everytime I bring Terrak etc", because it is exactly the same thing with Terrakion. Can it switch in on anything ?
And at this game of "I switch something in then force you back after a death" a pokemon with U-Turn will get the upper hand probably (or at least have more options, especially when he got the possibility to revenge the other one anytime -well not really, but it does speed tie, and after some damages it will be in the KO range shortly-).


And Mamo does not counter Gliscor Shur, it is 2HKO by Facade. Thus each time Heracross comes in, you get a free sub on Gliscor, and after 2 of this evenement, you have no more pokemon able to shut you down. I don't see it as a counter at all.
 
Shurtugal said:
The problem with Latios is Heracross wrecks everything atm.
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Heracross can be dealt with through good prediction. Latios can switch into any move not called Megahorn. Even Night Slash doesn't OHKO after SR damage. Thankfully its not running Moxie, otherwise I feel like Team 2 would be hurting big time by just getting an attack boost after every kill. Having to face Heracross right now isn't "So what pokemon is going to die right now?", instead its "well it seems like Heracross would use X right now, so i can switch into *blank* but Y hurts it a lot."

If you simply want a pokemon to stop Heracross cold in it's tracks and be a viable option, Cofagrigus can do the job.
 
Anything can be dealt with if you rely on good prediction. In reality, Heracross puts on huge pressure on the team and that's my concern.

Also, Cofagrigous just seems like Wash + RP Lando-I weak imo. Why would we use it? We don't even benefit much from possible TR, and Mamoswine's EQ still hurts it.
 
Shurtugal said:
Anything can be dealt with if you rely on good prediction. In reality, Heracross puts on huge pressure on the team and that's my concern.

Also, Cofagrigous just seems like Wash + RP Lando-I weak imo. Why would we use it? We don't even benefit much from possible TR, and Mamoswine's EQ still hurts it.
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Hmm, this may be true, but Gliscor also has the same problem. It can take anything from Heracross, but will get hit hard by Mamo, Rotom-W, and Landorus. Terrakion also has some chance of switching in, but prays for Night Slash to be used.

If we do choose to go down the road of a dedicated Heracross counter, it will probably just leave us weak to the other threats on Team 1. That is another reason why I chose to go a different route with Specs Latios. It has no problem handling Hera on the switch and can survive most of it's attacks, just like Terrakion.
 
I don't like the Gliscor suggestion (for the very reasons you mentioned). I already mentioned my beef with Specs Latios, but the community is free to discuss! :)
 
Err, what are those criticisms, didn't you read my description or ?

Gliscor can SUBSTITUTE.
Meaning that he will sub on Heracross and hit anything that will come after.
If you want the calc about the damages, refer to my post.

And don't come telling me again that you don't like Gliscor for those reasons because I will definitetly start to think that it's useless to intent to build a set adapted on the situation.
You come on Heracross, you Sub, he goes to Rotom-W ? you SD and kill something.
He goes to Landorus ? you SD and kill something.
He goes to Kyurem-B ? you SD then kill something.
He goes to Mamoswine ? you hit him and he loses half his life, now you switch back to something safe, and wait for Heracross to come again because it mean that you won the game.

You really can't be serious when you compare all those possibilities to the possibilities of a choiced pokemon.
Gliscor's pick involves ZERO PREDICTION RISK unlike all the other picks so far (bar Scizor)
So don't bring again this 'because his typing leaves us weak to some attacks he can't be used' because of these simplistic criticisms that we missed many good propositions by the past. This notion of risk is really important and I believe people should look more carefully at it when they chose pokemons for this kind of project. This is why I believe that Kyurem-B was a bad choice, it is randomly risky and depends on a lot of circumstances to bring its use. A classic pokemon, with a classic set and an use no matter what happen was by far a better choice.
Back to the topic, this is not what I call a reason or an argument, develop them at least and you might see by yourself that Gliscor is afraid by nothing on team 2 if you play him carefully (and you totally can).
 
What? I wasn't even critiquing you...? Why are you getting mad. Anyway, Gliscor is hard hit by everything, but I see what you mean by just going into Heracross and subbing. Decisions decisions....

Anyway, it does seem a bit more reliable than Terrakion in the way it can take Hera much easier. Also, take a chill pill. We're just trying to come up with the best conclusion and you're taking things way too offensively man :[

I just didn't like it at first because its hard hit by everything, but you do get subs on Hera so idk. Had Team 1 took my suggestions (Icicle Spear + EV changes on Landy-I), Gliscor wouldn't be a threat right now so (lol) why doesn't anyone listen to me and my suggestions (thanks TGMD for listening to me about Landy-I's EV spread! The minor EV change would be very helpful right now! *sigh* its not really your fault so don't take offense I'm just speaking out loud since I made these suggestions and no one listened XD)

Anyway, Team 1 does get last picks, so do you have any suggestions of future partners for Gliscor so we're prepared? It seems Melee and his Terrakion are and I'm wondering if there is a Pokemon that Team 1 can slap on to beat Gliscor. I'm a bit tired to think of all the alternatives / etc. so I might post later.


EDIT:

I re-read your post and you don't seem mad. Just me misinterpreting things XD It was your harshness and rudeness to me that made me think you were mad; could you be just a bit more lax? Seriously.
 
Melee Mewtwo said:
I just want to point out real quick that I was writing my post as you were yours so I edited mine to include an answer to yours. (Just FYI since it's an edit on another page)

The idea behind Sub is that, like RP, it allows you to get past Heracross. (who is OHKO'd by SE) The advantage of Sub though is that it punishes you less for a mispredict. RP has to be set up on a predicted switch-out so a mispredict costs you Terrak. However, Sub does the same thing (Terrak outruns everything except Heracross who dies popping the Sub) except that if you mispredict and the OP decides to stay in and attack you only lose 25%. The only downside I can see so far is when Terrak tries to set up on a locked Megahorn. With RP he either profits from the switch out and prevent any future attempt to revenge or it outspeeds after tanking a Megahorn and OHKO's right after. Sub on the other hand has to be used on a switch out to be effective as if it is used when Terrak stays in then you lose an extra 25% KOing Heracross as it pops your Sub. Even a healthy Terrakion only has enough HP to make 3-4 more attacks after that mispredict. Although that mostly means 3-4 kills so that isn't so bad and a choice locked Megahorn is less common than a predicted switch out. I'm kinda up in the air on this but I'm leaning towards Sub.

252 Atk Heracross Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Terrakion: 104-123 (32.19 - 38.08%) -- 96.63% chance to 3HKO
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Ii have to agree with this. The thing about RP is that if your opponent decides to get gutsy and stay in your in some trouble, but sub makes it much easier. If their team is weakened enough, terrakkion can just sub three times, pick up the salac berry boost, and clean up regardless of whether or not the opponent switches out. Ii f they do switch, you opponent is in some deep doodoo.
 
@Remedy

You do realize selecting a pokemon for one task like Gliscor makes it obvious when he will switch in. All Team 1 would have to do is double switch to Lando predicting the obvious Gliscor to be brought in. Gliscor would run fearing HP Ice while Landorus would set up a Rock Polish safely.
 
You should drop this prediction argument once for all, this will lead you nowhere.
You can say A will predict B, you can also say that B predicts A.
"prediction goes either way"

Shur, once again, go easy with the "mad" stuff.
You made me repeat same stuff for the third time about my nomination (all is explained in my first post) so I guess I have the right to be a little annoyed because that meant that you did not read a single line about it before criticizing.
By the way I did not know that "criticize" was some taboo word. We all criticize here and we're posting for that, criticize is supposed to be well thought, it can be positive or negative, and bring (if well built) the substance to the discussion.
And if by rudeness you mean putting things in capital letter, then we really will never find a way to understand each other. I did not insult anybody so it is you being rude right now claiming this stuff, and not the contrary.
 
Remedy said:
You should drop this prediction argument once for all, this will lead you nowhere.
You can say A will predict B, you can also say that B predicts A.
"prediction goes either way"
Click to expand...

Remedy said:
You come on Heracross, you Sub, he goes to Rotom-W ? you SD and kill something.
He goes to Landorus ? you SD and kill something.
He goes to Kyurem-B ? you SD then kill something.
He goes to Mamoswine ? you hit him and he loses half his life, now you switch back to something safe, and wait for Heracross to come again because it mean that you won the game.
Click to expand...

Yet you tried to predict all that^ before though.

If Gliscor is our ONLY option to switch into Heracross, than the switch will be that obvious. The only time Gliscor won't come in is if Keldeo is in on Hera since he is outsped and 2HKO'd.
 
First, I don't think any prediction is required when a pokemon can react risk free to a situation.
Gliscor behind a substitute is risk-free, I said what happens with all the opposing pokemons, meaning that for each pokemon Gliscor can take an advantage. Thus, threre is no need to predict beause NO MATTER what the guy do, you will do the rewarding play with Gliscor.

About the "it's obvious blabla". If it's so obvious, then predict it is obvious aswell. I really hope that you see what I mean here.
You assume that the player 1 can predict player 2's switch and double switch to Landorus (which is by the way outsped).
So it's my right, to assume myself that the player 2 can predict this double switch and put Celebi.

As I said, this leads us nowhere and this is why you should drop it because bascally you're saying to me "what if the player 2 was better than the player 1", this should not intervene in the team building process and "double switch" prediction stuff work for any pokemon as Shurtugal said (you should read more carefully here because I'm just developing what she told you before).
 
Melee Mewtwo said:
Just a few things I want to point out

Double typing isn't auto-bad, it's very situational as it depends on what the two same type mons do. For example, Terrak and TTar share a rock typing but that is almost never a problem as they have a different list of checks/counters and serve different purposes. That said doubling on a role is something to be avoided as it wastes a team space to accomplish essentially the same thing.

As for Scizor, Superpower + U-Turn makes Heatran a poor answer and is not a pick we want to push for as ScizorRotom works really well. Pain Split, bulk, and lefties helps keep Rotom healthy enough to tank the Fire Blasts long enough for it to serve as a Heatran counter throughout the game.
Click to expand...

I'm not saying it is bad but it makes team 1 have a huge fire weakness and rotom-W is team 1's keldeo check too. That means they can't really choose scizor as otherwise heatran walks over them.
Now we eliminate scizor they'll struggle finding a steel not weak to fire and empoleon takes a lot from fusion bolt and heatran does well against celebi and heatran with a balloon but leaves them weak to keldeo and heatran's balloon will pop if he try's to switch into celebi. If we choose Kyurem then they would be weak to Kyurem or heatran and probably keldeo too.
 
Nice, we got some discussion after all! Let's vote for pokemon 5, team 2, this looks very interesting!

This is a single bold voting; you can vote for only one entry, picked from the following list:


When voting, you should post only the name of the user that proposed your favourite set, bolded (you can add whatever commentary you like, not bolded, under your vote). A properly formatted vote looks like this:

Ada said:
Melee Mewtwo

Landorus just needs a bit of residual damage on Celebi to be able to sweep the current line-up. Mamoswine can easily kill slow Heatran and Celebi while forcing a revenge kill with Scarf Keldeo Secret Sword, which is easy set up for Landorus.
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Self voting is allowed. You'll have roughly 24 hours to vote. Go!
 
I didn't have time to do it last night like I wanted to so I'm going change RP to Sub on my set if that isn't a problem for the reasons I listed above. (I'll save my original post though so I can copypasta it back if it is too late for me to be doing this)

One thing I want to point out about your Gliscor set, Remedy. Although it is undeniable that it does an excellent job of cleaning the Team 1's current 5 members it suffers from something very important which is that it is easy to counter. Something like Gengar or Skarmory can switch into that set all day long while threatening the other team back with 130 SpAtk + perfect coverage or layers of Spikes.

CrackinSkulls said:
The idea of this thread is NOT a counter that pokemon thread. It is a teambuilding game where pokemon are suggested for there respective team. At the end of the day these two teams will battle each other. We want to win this battle. So how do we ensure that... we make each set on our team counter our opponents and be as uncounterable as possible so our opponents are hard pressed to counter it with there next addition. Essentially we want to beat our opponent by countering them and preventing them from countering us.
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You can find the full quote on the ganj4LF's second post in this thread.

Edit: I got your VM ganj, thanks for the okay.
 
God I hate that I have to chose between such good suggestions;

Melee's Terrakion: Remedy never answered my question

"Anyway, Team 1 does get last picks, so do you have any suggestions of future partners for Gliscor so we're prepared? It seems Melee and his Terrakion are and I'm wondering if there is a Pokemon that Team 1 can slap on to beat Gliscor."

I conclude he has no plan if they just slap something like Gengar or whatever, while Melee seems to have a back up plan (i.e. more reliable).


@Remedy:

It's this paragraph that made me think you were angry:

Remedy said:
Back to the topic, this is not what I call a reason or an argument, develop them at least
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Translation: Shurtugal, your a dumbass. (thus being rude)

Anyway, I had said that Gliscor was a good pick and asked you if you had an idea of how to counter Team 1's possible choices. You only addressed why I said you were mad (clearly after I edited and said it was my mistake; that you were being rude because of CAPS and what I quoted). However, Remedy, that's seriously trivial. The only thing I care about is an answer to my last question to know if I should vote for Gliscor and you ignored me.

Just restating this: I don't care if you were mad since I seem to keep misconstruing that :D Just please don't finish your points with a snide comment that translates to me being stupid since I'm taking my time to actually comment on your suggestions. I do apologize for not reading your entire nomination though :[ That was stupid on me lol XD
 
Melee Mewtwo

argh, sorry I haven't been able to comment on anything as of late nor make suggestions; been kinda busy with exams. Hopefully this'll change this monday D:
 
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