Counter that Pokemon - Mk IV [FINAL MATCH - Team 1 won!]

So far, the only Pokemon that does something important for team 2 is Choice Scarf Jirachi. Every other Pokemon mentioned cannot switch in at Kyurem-B and cannot spin, leaving our last pick horribly limited. My problem with Scarf Jirachi is the same with Scarf Scizor, but to a lesser degree, as Jirachi outclasses Scizor as a scarfer almost in every regard (aside from Pursuit trapping Gengar and Lati@s, which are both not real concerns right now). Jirachi is weak and very easy to set up on, opening the door to many threatening sweepers. Also, i would like us to wait 'till the last pick to choose our scarfer, in order to cover the weaknesses that we will have left the best. Scarfers are safety nets that patch up whatever holes are left on teams, which means that usually they are put into the team last. So what i think is important for us to choose now is something that will have at least half of those traits:

• Rapid Spin
• Good check to Kyurem-B
• Difficult to set up on
• Can threaten team 1

Of 'course it is impossible to find something that fills all those criteria, but Forretress, SpD Heatran, and offensive Starmie fill three of them and all seem as good picks to me.

Well, actually Landorus-T with Gravity does 3 of those, checking Kyurem-B when locked into Bolt Strike, as it's fairly difficult to set up on and threatens team 1 after Gravity because all those Levitate mons are now fodder for Landorus-T.
I like offensive Starmie and to be honest it makes a brilliant pair with Landorus-T, as rather than running Thunderbolt, Ice Beam and Surf it can run better moves in the form of Thunder(with 30% chance for paralysis which is brilliant), Blizzard and Hydro Pump all thanks to Gravity.

vyomov said:

Well, actually Landorus-T with Gravity does 3 of those, checking Kyurem-B when locked into Bolt Strike, as it's fairly difficult to set up on and threatens team 1 after Gravity because all those Levitate mons are now fodder for Landorus-T.

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Do you know who else checks Kyu-B when its locked into Fusion Bolt? Diglett.

There is a lot of confusion over the definitions of a check and counter, but the fact that Lando doesnt outspeed Cube and really cannot take anything except Fusion Bolt should be obvious that Lando-T is not a check. Lando cannot safely switch into Cube while Cube can switch in fearing only Stone Edge and puts pressure on Lando to switch out or die to Ice Beam.

Now in defense of my set from alexwolf's post. Two things are obvious: Heracross cannot rapid spin but threatens Team 1. Being a choiced user means that it is very possible to be set up on, but by getting stronger with ever kill because of Moxie helps patch that up a little. As far as being a "good check", well cube cant switch in on any of its STABs or Stone Edge without fear of a 2HKO, and all Heracross fears is Outrage, but is easily spammable because of its sheer power. I would personally label it as a good check but its pretty subjective. Based on all this, Heracross fills 2-3 of the 4 traits alexwolf listed.

Thou shall wait for criticism.

Do you know who else checks Kyu-B when its locked into Fusion Bolt? Diglett.

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Are you seriously comparing Landorus-T to ... Diglett???
As I said, Intimidate is also an option in which case Lando-T can actually switch into Cube, although Sheer Force is prefer to prevent LO recoil.
However, if genuinely needed, we can always make it an Intimidate@Leftovers Set so that Cube has to run for it.
If Heracross can beat Cube, how in the world can't Landorus-T?
252 Atk Life Orb Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyurem-B: 307-361 (78.51 - 92.32%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

vyomov said:

Are you seriously comparing Landorus-T to ... Diglett???

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He's just saying that you can't consider Lando a check to Kyurem-B only because it stops Fusion Bolt. In fact, that feature can be achieved by a random Ground type, that's why he cited Diglett. The fact is, Lando can't obviously switch into Ice Beam (lol), can't take Dragon attacks (Dragon Claw 2HKOs, Outrage OHKOs after Rocks and even with Intimidate Outrage kills anyway).

Reading again your post, you only said that Lando gets a free switch and not that it's a check, but the point remains: switching into Kyurem-B either means you used something else to scout its attack (and if you did, why we would need another pokemon when we already have Garchomp..?) or you predict a Fusion Bolt, which is not really something I'd rely upon (and again, Garchomp can do so. I'd rather have a solid switch-in that don't require me to guess). Still, it seems to me that you got quite a bit of confusion about the definitions of counters and checks: Lando doesn't counter Jirachi because it cannot switch into Icy Winds, and cannot counter (and not even check) Landorus since HP Ice is an OHKO. It can't even switch into Slowbro (obviously) so your only chance to do things IS to take advantage of Fusion Bolt (Azelf 2HKOs on the switch too...). I can't really see the point of picking Lando just for the sake of having another Electric immunity, so I guess you need to back up your suggestion with much stronger arguments if you want it to be taken seriously.

Forretress @ Leftovers
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 36 Def / 220 SDef
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Spikes
- Gyro Ball
- Pain Split
- Rapid Spin

Although we should obviously be limiting passive picks, I think in this scenario Forretress is the best possible choice for Team 2 at the moment. We absolutely need a decent Steel type unless we want Team 1's Kyurem-B to steamroll us. Rapid Spin support is also necessary for Zapdos to be able to effectively check Landorus-I. Forretress fills in as many of the gaps as possible with a single teamslot, freeing us up to pick something threatening in our last teamslot. Forretress still isn't a total slouch for Team 2 offensively - Spikes support is always useful for putting pressure on the opponent, Gyro Ball hits Landorus-I/Azelf hard on the switch-in, and thanks to Volt Switch we can preserve our momentum.

EDIT: I've changed the spread on my submission. It ensures that Jirachi will never 3HKO it, whilst still packing enough physical bulk to be only 4HKOd at best by Scarf Kyube. alexwolf made a good case for Pain Split, so I've decided to swap Volt Switch for it, as the chances that Team 1 will pick Magnezone as their last member are very slim anyway.

Well, I agree just a Ground-Type immunity is not enough, but Lando-T makes mockery of a lot of the switches in. Firstly, after a Gravity nothing wants to be taking an Earthquake(which Garchomp does not do). Also, the chances of Kyurem-B being locked into Ice Beam is fairly remote and we already have Rotom-W to beat Ice Beam locked Cube. After Intimidate a locked Kyurem-B is nowhere near as dangerous, especially since Lando OHKOes with Stone Edge. Remember that thanks to SR and no recovery Cube can't repeatedly switch in else some of the neutral stuff starts to HKO as well.
Secondly, Gravity in general gives needed support to a lot of the team because it means mons like Azelf and Landorus no longer get a free switch in on Garchomp or Landorus-T making sweeping that much easier.
Thirdly, Lando-T isn't as useless as you make it out to be: thanks to U-Turn, Azelf is never switching in.
U-turn makes Lando-T good to go because it can scout potential switches in(Like Landorus) and Turn out to an appropriate counter like Rotom-W, thus giving Team 2 momentum)
Slowbro and Azelf were both mentioned but neither is particularly fond of taking 145-based U-Turns, especially since they gain momentum
Now some may ask, why not Scizor. It has STAB U-turn and is a dangerous sweeper. The answer is that Scizor is VERY slow and with not exactly the best defenses in the world can be outsped and beaten.
To summarize:
a) Lando forms VoltTurn with Zapdos
b) Gravity helps entire team by preventing misses which can be costly
c) Gravity helps a potential Starmie pick to be MUCH more effective thanks to better moves
d) Lando-T has the attacking stats to put Team 1 under pressure

However, one must be wary of counterpicks as well. One of these could be Weavile. If we do end up selecting Lando-T, we'll have to tread carefully with the last pick to ensure Weavile doesn't end up sweeping our team.

As for other picks, while I like Forretress it's just a little too passive and we NEED to put pressure on Team 1 for their counterpick. While we certainly need a good rapid spinner, I would prefer Starmie for this role because of the speed it has, the coverage and the attacking power it has to put pressure.

Hum, I'm looking at a Blastoise right now. With a physically defensive spread it counters Azelf (which we have to do as well) while Spinning on it. It can also come in on Slowbro and sorta Rachi (if Thunders hit) as well as Kyurem-B if he doesn't click Fusion Bolt or Outrage (he can tank Outrages if SR isn't up). He can also beat any member on Team 1 one-on-one which means that Azelf clicking U-Turn won't really accomplish that much as the teams are now. Sadly, it doesn't have Spikes or anything which means it'll have to rely on Scald/Toxic/Phazing which isn't bad to have all that but it isn't ideal either. I want to hear what you guys think before I really consider submitting it. Basically, the main advantage is that it laughs at Azelf all day long which means it'll really struggle to keep SR up if Team 1 doesn't pick a ghost type (or something that can come in after a U-Turn and force Blastoise out. Even then, LO recoil will probably kill Azelf before it does Blastoise).

Blastoise has the unfortunate side effect of putting pressure on Garchomp, since if it faints switching into Fusion Bolt is a pain. Forretress looks good in that regard, taking pittance from anything Cube can throw at it and being able to spike up, but I guess Blastoise can be a reasonable choice if we're more afraid than Azelf compared to Kyurem. However, consider also that Azelf is very easily dealt with if we pick a random Scarfer with U-Turn, while Kyurem-B is not exactly squishy and may put more constraints on our last pick if we don't want to rely exclusively on Chomp to stop Fusion Bolts.

Well, I figured I'd look into a sixth pick that deals with ScarfKyu to go with Blastoise. The main appeal it had over Forry was countering Azelf which meant it would pretty much permanently deny it from ever setting up SR unless it adds a Ghost type for the final pick (which if we forced that then we won). Assuming I did find something cool for the final pick that would handle Kyu-B (IDK, bulky SD scizor??), would you have any other possible complaints? It's not so much handling both threats that I'm worried about as much as Blastoise itself being much easier to exploit than other things. (although, it does have a nice array of utilities)

G-Von said:

Do you know who else checks Kyu-B when its locked into Fusion Bolt? Diglett.

There is a lot of confusion over the definitions of a check and counter, but the fact that Lando doesnt outspeed Cube and really cannot take anything except Fusion Bolt should be obvious that Lando-T is not a check. Lando cannot safely switch into Cube while Cube can switch in fearing only Stone Edge and puts pressure on Lando to switch out or die to Ice Beam.

Now in defense of my set from alexwolf's post. Two things are obvious: Heracross cannot rapid spin but threatens Team 1. Being a choiced user means that it is very possible to be set up on, but by getting stronger with ever kill because of Moxie helps patch that up a little. As far as being a "good check", well cube cant switch in on any of its STABs or Stone Edge without fear of a 2HKO, and all Heracross fears is Outrage, but is easily spammable because of its sheer power. I would personally label it as a good check but its pretty subjective. Based on all this, Heracross fills 2-3 of the 4 traits alexwolf listed.

Thou shall wait for criticism.

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I really feel Guts is definitely superior, the only time Heracross having the Moxie boost help him would be against Jirachi. Anyways, Hera really misses on on some coverage we want, but it does have just enough to hit Kyurem-B and Azelf, which is what we want, but you lose to Jirachi without a Moxie boost and Landorus resists everything except Stone Edge, and can just use U-Turn on the switch-in to get an advantage. In that regard, I think it becomes partly easy to set up on, as Landorus gets U-Turn advantage and Jirachi can hax you to death.

vyomov said:

Are you seriously comparing Landorus-T to ... Diglett???
As I said, Intimidate is also an option in which case Lando-T can actually switch into Cube, although Sheer Force is prefer to prevent LO recoil.
However, if genuinely needed, we can always make it an Intimidate@Leftovers Set so that Cube has to run for it.
If Heracross can beat Cube, how in the world can't Landorus-T?
252 Atk Life Orb Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyurem-B: 307-361 (78.51 - 92.32%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

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first off, there is no reason to use Sheer Force>Intimidate because your lando does not have any moves that get boosted by SF so it would take LO recoil. Whats really bad is the fact that Team 1 is completely special-based with the exception of Cube, so it would be the only pokemon effected by Intimidate (along with Jirachi's Iron Head I guess). Also, how do you expect lando to set up a gravity when it cannot switch into anything on Team 1, as ganj4lF has already made clear. lamdorus-t really does not work well for Team 2 for all the reasons I just mentioned plus whatever I possibly missed.

As far as the Forretress suggestion, if anyone read my suggestion knows I like it. It has the same exact move set I would have proposed with the following pick after this one. I don't know what EV's I would have given it so I'm sure the ones DarkblazeR is using are optimal. I'm not too crazy of a fan of Blastoise because it cannot sponge hits from the ever too powerful Cube. Cube 2HKO's the turtle with Fusion Bolt w/o SR and Outrage with SR. Forretress can use Cube as set up fodder because Ice Beam and Fusion Bolt do at most 27%, which are his most powerful attacks against Forretress. In return, Gyro Ball does a fuckton, nailing the OHKO after SR.

Lando-T can't even have Sheer Force, that's Lando-I.

It is clear that we have some sort of a dilemma here. Kyu-B is a prominent threat to the team that pretty much requires us to use some sort of physically defensive or resisting Pokemon. However, that's where we're cut short. Sure, Kyurem-B is a problem that needs to be checked, but we're going to unfortunately have to settle with something that isn't totally wrecked, walled, or both by the rest of team 1 like many of Kyu-B's Steel-type checks and counters are. Literally, every current Pokemon in team 1 other than Kyu-B itself can hit Steel-types for a very fair and noticable amount of damage. We can choose a Forretress to wall Kyurem, but it will end up makig us weaker to Azelf and Slowbro, giving both the ability to set up and take advantage of the fact that we're throwing away valuable momentum just to counter one Pokemon on the opponent's team. This applies for Heatran as well, which is walled flat by Slowbro and KOd by Landorus. Heatran isn't as bad, however, momentum wise; we can run a certain Hidden Power to counter Slowbro or Lando, but it doesn't exactly help our problem with hazards. However, if one wants to run a defensive Steel-type, Heatran is pretty much the only way to go without losing massive amounts of momentum. (If one chooses to go offensive, Jirachi is probably the best pick)


Heatran @ Leftovers
248 HP / 220 Def / 40 SpA
Fire Blast / Protect / Roar / Toxic

Heatran can be our Golden Ticket out of this hole. It counters Kyu-B and Azelf, doesn't give a fuck about Jirachi's HP Ground, and can only be defeated by Lando, who is walled by Rotom and Zapdos. Of course, the addition of Heatran makes a Spinner all the more necessary, but there is nothing stopping us from slapping in a Starmie next. Anyway, Heatran's bulk and typing give a couple of vital benefits to team 2. It completely walls Kyu-B and Azelf, and can cripple much of team 1. Fire Blast destroys Jirachi, Azelf, and Kyu-B so we can not only force them out but also counter them with much more ease. Toxic puts a timer on things Heatran can't KO- Landorus, Slowbro, and Kyurem, and with Protect, can be used to gleam off some damage to put things into KO range with Fire Blast.

Another important thing to consider is Heatran's effect on future picks. It's obviously later in the project and Team 1 only has one last Pokemon but closing them off and forcing them into or out of a predictably threatening hole is beneficial. Heatran does this masterfully. It's obvious that hazards are, yet again, going to play a massive role here. Heatran gives us the advantage in this- as it wards off Spinners and hazard layers with its powerful Fire type STAB. This, in junctionwith a spinner of our own, will let us keep a leg up in the hazard war, which in turn keeps Team 1's sweepers, Lando and Kyu-B, in check. Roar also makes it risky for team 1 to add on more setup sweepers and therefore more offensive pressure- letting us concentrate on wrapping up our already solid offensive momentum with defensive support.

G-Von said:

Now in defense of my set from alexwolf's post. Two things are obvious: Heracross cannot rapid spin but threatens Team 1. Being a choiced user means that it is very possible to be set up on, but by getting stronger with ever kill because of Moxie helps patch that up a little. As far as being a "good check", well cube cant switch in on any of its STABs or Stone Edge without fear of a 2HKO, and all Heracross fears is Outrage, but is easily spammable because of its sheer power. I would personally label it as a good check but its pretty subjective. Based on all this, Heracross fills 2-3 of the 4 traits alexwolf listed.

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A check needs to switch into the Pokemon in question and Heracross can't do this as every move of Kyurem-B 2HKOes Heracross at worst. Heracross is a revenge killer. This means that Heracross fills 2 of the criteria i mentioned at best, and i say at best because a choiced Pokemon is easy to abuse, even after a Moxie boost.

@DarkBlazeR

I think that a specially defensive spread would be much better on Forretress. Here is the set that i would prefer:

Forretress @ Leftovers
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spd
- Spikes
- Gyro Ball
- Pain Split
- Rapid Spin

With this EV spread Forretress hard counters Jirachi and Kyurem-B from team 1, meaning that it will have many switch-in oportunities. It can even take an Earth Power from Landorus if needed, which does 70% damage on average and hit it back with Pain Split, weakening it while healing at the same time, or just getting a last minute spin off. While Volt Switch is definitely nice for momentum, team 1 has Landorus which is more than happy to come into anything Forretress has other than Gyro Ball and easily force it out, meaning that if we use Volt Switch as Landorus comes in we just wasted a turn. On the other hand, Pain Split lets Forretress counter Kyurem-B and Jirachi for as long as necessary while being a much more reliable spinner, thanks to the added longevity. The only real problem with Forretress is that it is huge setup bait for many Pokemon, but this can be somehow mitigated with the right last pick, so right now Forretress looks as a very good pick.

DarkBlazeR tell me if you are willing to change your set to the one i posted otherwise i might consider posting it myself.

Blastoise is a smart choice and has a huge pro over anything else: it shits on Azelf, meaning that SR will almost never be up. For this reason alone Blastoise seems as a viable pick. It is also difficult to set up on thanks to Roar and Scald, but unfortunately does nothing to cover our Kyurem-B weakness. Something else that i don't like about Blastoise is that he compounds out Grass weakness, as if we pick it we will have 3 Pokemon weak to Grass and one neutral to it, meaning that Pokemon such as SD Unburden Sceptile with Rock Slide and Jolly Stone Edge Breloom have the potential to be very troubling. However, as i said again, the ability to prevent SR from ever being up is a huge boon and this fact alone makes Blastoise a good pick.

Btw i don't think that we need to be particularly worried about Azelf. Scarfers and priority can handle it just fine, and most of our Pokemon deal just fine against it 1 v 1. Finally, if we get Garchomp in safely, Azelf has to sacrifice itself in order for Chomp to not fuck up team 1 too much, so there is that too. Overall, i don't think we need to try hard to deal with Azelf. I like Blastoise not because it counters Azelf's attacks, but because it counters SR. Walling Azelf is just a bonus.

Melee Mewtwo said:

Well, I figured I'd look into a sixth pick that deals with ScarfKyu to go with Blastoise. The main appeal it had over Forry was countering Azelf which meant it would pretty much permanently deny it from ever setting up SR unless it adds a Ghost type for the final pick (which if we forced that then we won). Assuming I did find something cool for the final pick that would handle Kyu-B (IDK, bulky SD scizor??), would you have any other possible complaints? It's not so much handling both threats that I'm worried about as much as Blastoise itself being much easier to exploit than other things. (although, it does have a nice array of utilities)

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Overall i can't find anything really wrong with Blastoise, as Scald and Roar do a very nice job of preventing things from setting up. We just have to make sure that our last pick will be able to check Kyu-B and Grass types and we will be fine, so Scizor indeed seems as a good choice. However, Scizor has the downside if being very Volcarona weak, which is a problem as Volcarona can already set up against Zapdos and Rotom-W. Heatran could work better, dealing with Volcarona, Kyurem-B, and maybe Sceptile, but is Breloom weak. But yeah, go with Blastoise it is solid. Btw what would you choose for the last slot on Blastoise? Toxic and Ice Beam are both good options, but i like Ice Beam a bit more as it prevents Grass-types from switching in very easy.

@Electrolyte

SpD Heatran is a very solid pick. Fire Blast is also a good idea to almost OHKO Jirachi, preventing it from 2HKOing us with HP Ground. However i don't get the need for Hidden Power Grass and WoW. Toxic and Protect are much better choices, with Toxic fucking up the only switch-in to Fire Blast that team 1 has and Protect goes a long way in helping Heatran to survive longer and Toxic stall Slowbro. The only Hidden Power that i would consider using is Hidden Power Ice to OHKO Landorus on the switch and hit any potential Dragon-type pick that team 1 could make. The only really bad thing about Heatran is that it is Gyarados weak, which could force it out and get a boost and then easily sweep team 2. Of 'course we have the last pick to cover this, but offensive Starmie cannot deal with +1 Gyarados and defensive Starmie is too easy to set up on, leaving Blastoise as the only real choice if we want to include a spinner, which we should.

So Blastoise + SpD Heatran seems to me the best combo for our last two picks, as it can do many cool things, such as preventing SR from ever being up, being hard to setup on, shutting down Azelf + Kyu-B, and threatening team 1. The only downside of this combo is its weakness to Breloom and Sceptile. LO SD Sceptile with Leaf Blade + Rock Slide + EQ can OHKO everything at +2 aside from Chomp, which takes a minimum of 83% and cannot get past Azelf unless it wants to be revenge killed by Kyu-B and leave Sceptile free to fuck everything up. Jolly LO Breloom with Stone Edge / Bullet Seed / Mach Punch / Spore beats everything on team 2 one on one, aside from Garchomp, making it a real pain in the ass. SpD Forretress is the next best spinner we can choose, and it doesn't leave us so weak to Grass-types, but is setup bait for many other Pokemon, so i want to see some good partners for it before i fully support it.

We should be using Heatran to counter Kyurem-B, so we'll need it to be able to KO or cripple it in some way. Wil-O-Wisp does just that. With Toxic and Protect, Heatran can't really deal any immediate damage to Kyu-B other than FBlast I guess, which is only a 3HKO if rocks aren't up. With Wil-O-Wisp, Heatran can take down Outrage locked Kyu-B in one swift move, not KOing it but crippling it and making it much easier to handle later. This scenario's possibility will also make spamming Outrages for the opponent a much riskier endeavor- forcing them to bank on the weaker Dragon Claw or a coverage move early game. WoW also fucks predicted switch-ins, and can still annoy Slowbro, even if not as much as Toxic.

HP Grass's sole purpose is to hit Slowbro. (If the team is Gyarados weak we can always use HP Electric.) Earth Power hits nothing, Toxic is redundant, and Protect... I guess that could work, for scouting purposes, but I'd prefer if we could at least hit Slowbro for considerable damage, as at this point Slowbro is the only opponent that can shrug off a Fire Blast. Hidden Power Ice is really useless, as Landorus is never going to switch in with the fear of Fire Blast, and should it come in clean it would outspeed and OHKO anyway. HP Grass hits something, so I put it in that slot.

@ Below: Looks good. I don't mind changing my set to yours, but it was your idea anyway, so I'll just let you make a separate submission

Heatran can already seriously hurt Heatran back with Fire Blast and doesn't need WoW. Toxic is a much better option overall and cripples every single Pokemon of team 1 better than WoW, especially Slowbro, as well as being more accurate. Instead of wasting a slot only to hit Slowbro, which Toxic already does, Protect is arguable the best option on the last slot to enhance Heatran's longevity and Toxic stall better. After thinking it better, Heatran doesn't need SpD investment and would prefer Def EVs, to tank hits from Kyu-B and Azelf's Psyshock better. After doing some calcs, here is the EV spread i came up with:

Heatran @ Leftovers
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 220 Def / 40 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Roar
- Toxic
- Protect

40 SpA EVs with a Modest nature allow Heatran to always OHKO Jirachi after SR and 2HKO Kyu-B without SR. The rest are put into Defense to allow Heatran to deal with Kyu-B as better as possible. Here is how much Fusion Bolt does to this Heatran:

252+ Atk Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 248 HP / 220 Def Heatran: 114-135 (29.61 - 35.06%) -- possible 4HKO

Never a 4HKO when factoring Protect and SR will never up thanks to Blastoise's ability to counter Azelf (i am assuming that Blastoise will be the partner of Heatran as this is my favorite combo as of now).

Electrolyte tell me if you want to change your set to the one i posted, otherwise i may consider making it my own submission.

alexwolf said:

A check needs to switch into the Pokemon in question and Heracross can't do this as every move of Kyurem-B 2HKOes Heracross at worst. Heracross is a revenge killer. This means that Heracross fills 2 of the criteria i mentioned at best, and i say at best because a choiced Pokemon is easy to abuse, even after a Moxie boost.

Click to expand...

First off, Ice Beam isn't a 2HKO. Secondly, since Heracross outspeeds Kyu-B, all it has to do is be able to live a hit to threaten Cube out. Also, if we do not choose a scarf mon then Team 1's win clause is to eliminate the steel pokemon of choice so that Kyurem-B can run shit. That is my reasoning behind the HeraTress combo.

Hmm, a CB Scizor partner would have the bulk to counter Kyu-B while running Quick Attack over Pursuit would allow it to stop Volcarona that haven't healed off SR damage with Roost. Volcarona looks good but it needs too much to be successful IMO. First of all, having Volcarona means no spinner on Team 1 so once SR is up it can't do anything about it. Secondly, it'll need QD as well as Roost so that a CB Quick Attack (as well as setup anywhere) as well as Giga Drain for the water types (which won't OHKO so they can still check it) plus Bug Buzz to hit Garchomp and a fire STAB since Zapdos can tank even +6 Buzzs from the bulky sets (good luck not getting critted in the mean time). In general, though, Volcarona would have a really hard time setting up anywhere. The only places it could pull it off is on Zapdos (who has Volt Switch) and Scizor (who has U-Turn, Quick Attack) so I don't think it is really a threat. I'll look into other possible problems and if I don't see anything really big I'll post Blastoise.


EDIT: Okay, as Team 2 is now we are currently threatened by Latios/Latias as well as Sceptile. Infernape, Keldeo, Terrakion and CM Virizion can all be significant threats as well assuming they win the speed tie with Terrakion (Ape gets Mach Punch too). There may be some slower threats that could be problems as well like DD Haxorus or something of the sort. I can't really find much else that could be a problem, the team puts a lot of offensive pressure out and has a decent amount of bulk.

EDIT2: Okay, I'm doing it.



Blastoise (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Torrent
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SDef
Bold Nature
- Surf
- Toxic
- Rapid Spin
- Roar

What does this set do? Although all three RBY starters were amazing awesome, Blastoise had the slightest extra bit of cool that made him the best. Sadly, the current competitive environment doesn't really reflect that as he only the second best and that isn't really saying much when one of the three is Charizard. All the same, Blastoise has a niche in being a bulky water type with Rapid Spin and Phazing. This is enough to earn him a slot in this CtP project as that is exactly what we are looking for. Basically, Blastoise stops Azelf in its tracks and denies it from ever setting up SR ever. Besides Rapid Spin, Blastoise has Toxic to mess with almost every member on Team 2. Surf is just a nice STAB option that hits Lando hard as well as any potential Terrakions or Infernapes. It was chosen over Scald since Blastoise is better off Toxic poisoning things more than burning them and Surf has some extra punch that could come in handy. Roar makes sure Blastoise isn't setup fodder and can also mess with switch-ins by dragging out something unintended and spreading a bit of hazards damage in the process. Toxic is the main way for Blastoise to do damage and is very important in discouraging any tempting Jellicent counter picks.

How can this set help the team? Making SR impossible to get up gives Team 2 a general edge as well as make Zapdos life a WHOLE lot easier. It further complements Zapdos with its respectable physical bulk to match the bird's special walling capabilities. Nothing really likes switching into Toxic or Surf (and Kyu B hates getting shuffled around) which means it does a bit more than just spinning as well. On top of that, it can help check Kyurem-B as long as it doesn't click Outrage or Fusion Bolt.

What can the other team do in response to this set? There's a lot of things Team 1 could do about this, sadly they only have one pick left. Spin Blockers like Jellicent and Gengar would be alright although they don't much like Toxic/Surf. Overall though, unless being able to handle Blastoise is going to be looked at as bonus points for Team 1's final pick more than an actual necessity.

What potential additions can be made to deal with these responses? There isn't any additions we can make to deal with Team 1's actual counter picks since the project will be finished. However, Blastoise does open up the path for an excellent partner that together can put Team 1 in a very uncomfortable position. Bulky SD Scizor, the failure in the last project, can now be the shining star. Together with Blastoise, it plugs up virtually every hole that could have been exploited by the threats I mentioned above. (Latios, Viriz, Haxorus, etc.) On top of that, it itself poses a significant threat as a potential sweeper that can walk right through the opposing team as well as have quite a fair amount of setup opportunities. Jellicent could be a potential nuisance to the duo but Toxic Blastoise as well as the rest of the team strongly discourages a Jellicent pick as well as punishing one that tries to see any play.

@Alexwolf: That set does seem more appropriate, thanks for posting it. However, feel free to submit it yourself since it is your set after all. Otherwise, I'll consider it, thanks. Regardless of whether I change the EV spread or not, I think Pain Split looks like a great idea since it needs to be able to consistently switch in to Kyube without getting worn down too much.

edit: nvm

As much as every part of me screams that we do not pick blastoise (This is coming from someone who has crushed many a blastoise in UU, so feel free to ignore that bias), Melee Mewtwo's logic is pretty damn sound. The only pokemon I can seriously think of that could trouble a combo of that blastoise and bulky scizor would be an empoleon with the moveset of Surf, Ice Beam, Grass Knot and HP Fire.

Unfortunately, that would be a bit troublesome for team 2, as asides from shutting down both blastoise and scizor, it would also give team 1 another way to revenge garchomp locked into outrage rather than having to use Cube early, taking SR damage and being locked into a set-up move. It would also cause a headache for team 2 trying to predict around a varied movepool, though to be fair it would also be difficult for team 1 to predict as well.

I guess my question then to you Melee would be is there anyway to prevent that being a problem to your ideal picks for team 2?

That set is hard countered by Rotom-W who resists and take a pittance from Surf/Beam/Fire while its SUPER light weight means that Grass Knot would actually be worse to use than a Surf. Plus it is slow and lack recovery which'll be easy for the other team to exploit and wear down.

@DarkBlazeR: I wouldn't be so quick to run full SpDef on Forry. That spread isn't going to help it much with Slowbro's/Azelf's fire coverage and Lando's Earth Power is still going to be hitting WAY too hard to bother trying to tank that except under dire circumstances. This leaves only Jirachi who can't touch you much and Kyurem-B who still has Fusion Bolt. I had been looking at some calcs myself and I feel a mixed spread would be the most efficient as the SpDef one was still taking over 40% iirc from Zek's Fusion Bolt. (sorry, I didn't look into much after realizing how little opportunities it would actually get so I don't have a spread for you to use)

Voting phase is starting tomorrow morning (GMT +2), I posted this warning to make sure everyone gets a chance to express their arguments, since this is a crucial pick for the outcome of the whole thread.

Don't we need a scarfer in our last 2 picks? Keldeo was the only thing stopping infernape from sweeping us. We need the insurance and if we have to have a spinner too then heatran can't really work. Blastoise may not make it so team 1 can't get rocks up as a gothitelle can trap it and they may choose a Tentacruel (not a good pick but means you can't spin) to stop you. Blastoise can't do much sadly and it will most likely eventually get worn down to continuous psyshocks. It will take a long time though. It also makes us Latios weak so IMO jirachi is our best pick.

Well, the bulky SD Scizor would function as a sort of revenge killer to help with the defensive core. On top of that, Team 1 only has one pick left and a Bulky SD Scizor currently threatens to walk through the entire team. So with the combo I'm suggesting they basically have 3 options (some better than others): They can pick a spin blocker because so that they can maintain an even hazards game (both sides will have SR instead of just Team 2), they can pick a dangerous niche sweeper that somehow has the perfect combination of coverage moves to rip our team to threads (again, I listed all the potential ones in my earlier post that, fortunately, Scizor+Blastoise actually plug those holes up. But let's assume one exists) or they can counter Scizor. The problem with the first is that there isn't really a solid spin blocker besides something silly like Rest Jellicent and he won't be a very strong pick considering the rest of the team. If they choose a deadly sweeper they can pose a threat to us but on the flip side, they won't have anything to stop Scizor from wrecking them so it'll have to be something that can somehow lead and 6-0 (which, with the defensive backbone Team 2 would have I find that hard to pull off) as that one turn of SD is gg. If they choose a Scizor counter they end up with no hazards (while having some to deal with theirself) and only one thing standing in the way of a Scizor sweep. This looks like overall the safest option for them to take and I think forcing such a pick is a huge advantage for Team 2 as they essentially nullified the positives of the final pick.