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Data ASB Feedback & Game Issues Thread - Mk II
- Thread starter Dogfish44
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To put the issue to rest, I asked Marty and this is what he said:
<Objection> are you there marty? it's me again
<Marty> oh hey
<Marty> what's up?
<Objection> this time, there's some dispute over the multi-hit move hit probabilities
<Objection> i've got one source saying 35:35:15:15 (which is an unusual ratio to come out with) and another source saying 2:2:1:1
<Marty> it's 2:2:1:1 in Gen 5
<Objection> ok
<Objection> i heard there was this guy called great sage who insisted otherwise, but idk how reliable he is
<Marty> V4 verified it specifically because GS brought it up a while ago
<Objection> ah ok
<Objection> thanks again for your help
<Marty> no problem :)
brb putting this finding in the DAT.
<Objection> are you there marty? it's me again
<Marty> oh hey
<Marty> what's up?
<Objection> this time, there's some dispute over the multi-hit move hit probabilities
<Objection> i've got one source saying 35:35:15:15 (which is an unusual ratio to come out with) and another source saying 2:2:1:1
<Marty> it's 2:2:1:1 in Gen 5
<Objection> ok
<Objection> i heard there was this guy called great sage who insisted otherwise, but idk how reliable he is
<Marty> V4 verified it specifically because GS brought it up a while ago
<Objection> ah ok
<Objection> thanks again for your help
<Marty> no problem :)
brb putting this finding in the DAT.
As it stands, Gym Leaders have to maintain a particular W/L ratio to keep their seats. Barring that, any Gym Leader can agree to a match for their spot; I mean, what's stopping them?
Actually Lou the W/L ratio was abolished a while ago.
Essentially Unitas, Gym Leader positions are subject to the discretion of the gym council and dialogue between the council and leaders. If a user wishes to challenge a Gym Leader for their spot the Gym Council will confer and decide upon terms of the match and indeed if the match should happen. To date a gym leader has not been challenged for their spot. The gym council aalso oversees gym leaders for cases of inactivity and removes Gym Leaders appropriately.
Essentially Unitas, Gym Leader positions are subject to the discretion of the gym council and dialogue between the council and leaders. If a user wishes to challenge a Gym Leader for their spot the Gym Council will confer and decide upon terms of the match and indeed if the match should happen. To date a gym leader has not been challenged for their spot. The gym council aalso oversees gym leaders for cases of inactivity and removes Gym Leaders appropriately.
Stratos
Banned deucer.
[09:24am] Flamestrike: well that's a bit of a pain for speed tie shenanigans then
he's right. Currently, it's nearly impossible to have a solid set of orders with a speed tie because so much depends on chance.... or does it?
there's currently a rule in the DAT about speed ties that would make life much simpler:
[box]If there is a speed tie, and one pokemon is using a move that costs at least two less energy (after STAB) than the other, it will go first. (For moves whose energy cost would change based on whether the user goes first or second, use the energy cost as if they would go second). Only flip for a speed tie if the two moves cost within 1 energy of each other.[/box]
he's right. Currently, it's nearly impossible to have a solid set of orders with a speed tie because so much depends on chance.... or does it?
there's currently a rule in the DAT about speed ties that would make life much simpler:
However, it's easy to see why it isn't used—no ref wants to go through the shitstorm of justifying their decisions based on this subjective criterion, especially in higher-level matches. What if we were to codify it, though? Make it something like
[box]If there is a speed tie, and one pokemon is using a move that costs at least two less energy (after STAB) than the other, it will go first. (For moves whose energy cost would change based on whether the user goes first or second, use the energy cost as if they would go second). Only flip for a speed tie if the two moves cost within 1 energy of each other.[/box]
Support, I actually thought that was a pretty awesome rule that nobody knew about, since it just lets you potentially screw over your opponent when going second (even more than usual) and it's better than just hoping to get lucky since "If you go second..." it's illegal. I also think the energy cost was already the most effective way to determine complexity so I think that's pretty solid as a way to go (though maybe add something were on priority moves or moves with a BP of 4 or less the one that cost less energy to perform goes first since they mostly have the same energy cost outside of STAB otherwise I think it's fine)
The rules for sleep that are listed in DAT are whack and do not follow a logical progression or what is accounted for in-game. Let's take a look:
[box]Sleep
Sleep has three levels of severity. With the exception of a few moves, whenever sleep is inflicted it has a 1/3rd chance of landing on each of the three levels, unless the attack always inflicts a certain level. If a sleeping Pokemon is hit with a single attack that causes sixteen (16) or more damage, it will wake up one action sooner. If a Pokemon is switched while it is Asleep, it will return to its original level of Sleep.
Light Sleep: If inflicted with Light Sleep, a Pokemon with Early Bird will wake up immediately. All other Pokemon will be asleep for one (1) action.
Deep Sleep: All Pokemon inflicted with Deep Sleep will be asleep for one (1) action.
Intense Sleep: Pokemon with Early Bird will wake up after one (1) action. All other Pokemon will be asleep for two (2) actions.
Sleep and Capture:
When a Pokemon is put to sleep, it does not actually wake up until the action after its counter hits 0. Thus if you put a slower Pokemon to sleep on the last action of the round, when you go into a capture round it will still be asleep when you attempt to capture it, even if it was only put to sleep for one (1) action.[/box]
From what I understand, sleep should work on a counter-based system. A Pokemon should wake up directly before its next action, no? Well this above bit on Sleep seems to recommend that Pokemon are asleep for a set amount of actions, and then wake up afterwards. The wording used here varies; Intense Sleep suggests that the Pokemon wakes up after the action, while Light Sleep recommends that the Pokemon sleeps through the action. But in either case, a cut-off point is not indicated for the duration of the sleep.
I hope I don't need to explain why this is important to differentiate. With Sleep ending at the end of an action, it's possible to continuously put a Pokemon to sleep if you are faster than it, effectively preventing it from attacking. While I am personally fine with this system (the sleep inducer is punished by massive energy lost), I do not think this is how the author of DAT intended sleep to work.
In other news, Elevator Music and I would like to do a full re-write of DAT. A lot of information on ASB is accurate in that thread (and some information isn't even listed!). I dunno how exactly we'd go about this, but it's something we'd like to pursue in the near future.
[box]Sleep
Sleep has three levels of severity. With the exception of a few moves, whenever sleep is inflicted it has a 1/3rd chance of landing on each of the three levels, unless the attack always inflicts a certain level. If a sleeping Pokemon is hit with a single attack that causes sixteen (16) or more damage, it will wake up one action sooner. If a Pokemon is switched while it is Asleep, it will return to its original level of Sleep.
Light Sleep: If inflicted with Light Sleep, a Pokemon with Early Bird will wake up immediately. All other Pokemon will be asleep for one (1) action.
Deep Sleep: All Pokemon inflicted with Deep Sleep will be asleep for one (1) action.
Intense Sleep: Pokemon with Early Bird will wake up after one (1) action. All other Pokemon will be asleep for two (2) actions.
Sleep and Capture:
When a Pokemon is put to sleep, it does not actually wake up until the action after its counter hits 0. Thus if you put a slower Pokemon to sleep on the last action of the round, when you go into a capture round it will still be asleep when you attempt to capture it, even if it was only put to sleep for one (1) action.[/box]
From what I understand, sleep should work on a counter-based system. A Pokemon should wake up directly before its next action, no? Well this above bit on Sleep seems to recommend that Pokemon are asleep for a set amount of actions, and then wake up afterwards. The wording used here varies; Intense Sleep suggests that the Pokemon wakes up after the action, while Light Sleep recommends that the Pokemon sleeps through the action. But in either case, a cut-off point is not indicated for the duration of the sleep.
I hope I don't need to explain why this is important to differentiate. With Sleep ending at the end of an action, it's possible to continuously put a Pokemon to sleep if you are faster than it, effectively preventing it from attacking. While I am personally fine with this system (the sleep inducer is punished by massive energy lost), I do not think this is how the author of DAT intended sleep to work.
In other news, Elevator Music and I would like to do a full re-write of DAT. A lot of information on ASB is accurate in that thread (and some information isn't even listed!). I dunno how exactly we'd go about this, but it's something we'd like to pursue in the near future.
While I still feel like the second paragraph is being unfairly ignored, the sleep description could probably be worded better and the counter system expanded on. I'd also be up for helping to rewrite and clarify stuff in the DAT as well.
This could just be ww being a whiny baby, but I think Rivalry needs to be retooled. Specifically, I believe it should be changed to a "Can be Enabled" ability. Several other abilities with both positive and negative effects are can be enabled abilities (Contrary, Hustle, Illuminate, Zen Mode, etc.). Obviously, if we make it can be enabled in its current form, it wouldn't really be Rivalry, as no one would turn it on against an opponent of the opposite gender. Right now, however, all ability matches completely screw over Rivalry mons if the opponent brings Pokemon of the other type, and the owner of the Rivalry mon can do nothing about it.
Defeatist Is worst though and unlike Slow Star and Truant you can't even check it up to the beyond legendary stats of Archeops, also Rivalty mons make great potential users of Red Knot Attact since you either get an offensive bost or a defensive one. While Rivalty is in fact bad if you are able to send a mon whose gender is opposed to the opponent it's also better than many of the can be enabled abilities you just listed (The new Illuminate is really weak and was over-nerfed), and just like you can take advantage of a contrary mon with Swagger and Flatter you can do the same to a Rivalty mon
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3710705&postcount=12
Purely an issue of original wording. iirc I raised this and similar issues once upon a time but as you can see the sleep stage counter decays during your action, e.g. you don't wake up until it's your time to move.
edit: on that note please do rewrite the dat, it sorely needs it
edit2: supporting the speed tie thing
also biasedly supporting the rivalry thing because rivalry is rly gay on my haxorus :(
It has come to my attention that combos involving Rollout and Ice Ball are very vague indeed, with no description about how a same-move combo with either of them works. A sentence describing how it would work should definitely be put in the DAT.
IMO, this really doesn't need discussion, as its not changing anything, only making already codified information more readily available.
IMO, this really doesn't need discussion, as its not changing anything, only making already codified information more readily available.
I may be jumping to conclusions, but at this point, proposals are not getting support from othre ASB-ers at all. Now it's just "I post, hope the Council gets attention, and start a Discussion thread". Not to be a whiner, but shouldn't proposals get something like a "Support with discussion" vote from ASB-ers other than the initial proposer?
That said, I believe that the issues outlined above (Rollout combos, Sleep mechanics, Speed-tie without RNGs) require only one solution:
That said, I believe that the issues outlined above (Rollout combos, Sleep mechanics, Speed-tie without RNGs) require only one solution:
I... actually posted about this issue a handful of times. I'm a real nagger. But considering the current situation, where Ability Types might get a revamp soon, I hope that the Council and the community takes this into consideration, support this, and start what may be the largest project in ASB history since R_D and Deck created DAT MKII, after the Ability Type voting is done.Let's get 5 Formal Support Votes on this Proposal said:
Re: Hi Jump Kick and regular Jump Kick
Now, in-game a missed (Hi) Jump Kick causes self-damage equal to half your max HP, which is far too much to be considered reasonable in ASB. However, to be closer to their in-game counterparts and to iron in some sensibility, I do believe the crash damage should be changed to a fixed amount, such as these:
[box]Hi Jump Kick: The Pokemon leaps into the air and smashes its foot into the target. If the move misses, the user takes fifteen (15) recoil damage.
Attack Power: 13 | Accuracy: 90% | Energy Cost: 8 | Attack Type: Physical | Effect Chance: -- | Contact: Yes | Typing: Fighting | Priority: 0 | CT: Passive
Jump Kick: The Pokemon attacks the opponent with a flying kick, foot outstretched. If the move misses, the attacking Pokemon takes ten (10) recoil damage.
Attack Power: 10 | Accuracy: 95% | Energy Cost: 7 | Attack Type: Physical | Effect Chance: -- | Contact: Yes | Typing: Fighting | Priority: 0 | CT: Passive[/box]
I made Hi Jump Kick's recoil greater because it's a more powerful move. However, the numbers can be tweaked.
EDIT: Note to council members: If you're thinking of making a discussion thread for this, wait until at least 24 hours after this post (minus this edit) was made. kthxbai
By RAW, these attacks do no self-damage to Ghost-types on a miss, even though in-game they do. Furthermore, in-game, the self-damage is not based on how much damage (Hi) Jump Kick would have done, nor does it make logical sense for the damage to be based on how much (Hi) Jump Kick would have done - common sense should tell you that Blaziken missing against an Empoleon and Blaziken missing against a Dragonite are going to hurt the same amount.
Now, in-game a missed (Hi) Jump Kick causes self-damage equal to half your max HP, which is far too much to be considered reasonable in ASB. However, to be closer to their in-game counterparts and to iron in some sensibility, I do believe the crash damage should be changed to a fixed amount, such as these:
[box]Hi Jump Kick: The Pokemon leaps into the air and smashes its foot into the target. If the move misses, the user takes fifteen (15) recoil damage.
Attack Power: 13 | Accuracy: 90% | Energy Cost: 8 | Attack Type: Physical | Effect Chance: -- | Contact: Yes | Typing: Fighting | Priority: 0 | CT: Passive
Jump Kick: The Pokemon attacks the opponent with a flying kick, foot outstretched. If the move misses, the attacking Pokemon takes ten (10) recoil damage.
Attack Power: 10 | Accuracy: 95% | Energy Cost: 7 | Attack Type: Physical | Effect Chance: -- | Contact: Yes | Typing: Fighting | Priority: 0 | CT: Passive[/box]
I made Hi Jump Kick's recoil greater because it's a more powerful move. However, the numbers can be tweaked.
EDIT: Note to council members: If you're thinking of making a discussion thread for this, wait until at least 24 hours after this post (minus this edit) was made. kthxbai
@ Objection: imo, the easiest way to fix that issue is to just consider immunities through typing as a neutral typing for the purposes of recoil? Otherwise, yeah. I would be happy either way they go. Consider this a post for support.
I support both the DAT rewrite and the changes to (Hi) Jump Kick. I'd also like to propose something myself. Now, Pokemon are fairly intelligent creatures. In the wild they manage to fight just find, and while they expect our orders in battle and obey them readily, I would think they'd possess some modicum of common sense. In particular, I would think they would realize when a target is defeated and know to stop attacking it and/or start attacking a new target. And yet, for whatever reason in ASB if a Pokemon isn't given explicit orders on what to do when a target is KOed, they will fruitlessly keep attacking that downed Pokemon, wasting energy and actions for no reason whatsoever. I feel like, if only for flavor reasons, this should be changed to either stop attacking or to attack a random other target. Yes, I know every Pokemon gets a free KO sub they can use to redirect their attacks, and yes I know that any good player should be using these. I'm not saying this change is required for balancing the game or helping players who make a stupid mistake and/or don't use their KO sub, but I do feel like it would make a lot more sense if the Pokemon had a brain and said "Hey, that guy is done for, let's stop attacking or even go get that guy over there instead!"
@Flame, There is reason behind your logic of saying that a Pokemon should know when to stop attacking a fainted opponent, but at the same time, a Pokemon redirecting an attack because it know it won't work is still deliberately disobeying the Trainer (aka the one it told to beat the dead horse, er... fainted Pokemon). The KO sub is free for this exact reason: so that the Pokemon can redirect their attacks against a mon that has already fainted without disobeying the orders that it will (mostly) carry out as much as it can. While it certainly is frustrating to see your mon wasting a turn wasting energy on nothing (especially when you didn't expect a KO), there really is nothing wrong with the current system IMO.
While I'm at it, DAT rewrite is practically mandatory for a bunch of things, so of course I'm throwing my support at it
The changes to the Jump Kicks, on the other hand... I don't really know about them. TBH, I don't see the change being necessary, although with playing devil's advocate you could say a lot of current move changes aren't really necessary. Not supporting or disapproving of the topic, but I feel discussion could be of a lot of use.
While I'm at it, DAT rewrite is practically mandatory for a bunch of things, so of course I'm throwing my support at it
The changes to the Jump Kicks, on the other hand... I don't really know about them. TBH, I don't see the change being necessary, although with playing devil's advocate you could say a lot of current move changes aren't really necessary. Not supporting or disapproving of the topic, but I feel discussion could be of a lot of use.
For the record:
[box]SE STAB HJK (Using Rank 5 Atk mon vs average defenses) & crashing:
See every mon that gets HJK with the exception of Scratfy and some of the Hitmons
13 (HJK) + 3 (STAB) + 3 (Difference) x 1.5 = 28.5 [14.25]
SE JK (Using Rank 5 Atk mon vs average defenses) & crashing:
All the mons that get it after a likely nature change (Hitmonlee is better using HJK)
10 (HJK) + 3 (Difference) x 1.5 = 19.5 [9.75][/box]
As you can see 15 & 10 are really close if a bit higher than what a regular SE HJK and JK would do against an average mon, you can even check the difference unto an item that boost offense or againt a pokemon with bellow average defenses
[box]SE STAB HJK (Using Rank 5 Atk mon vs average defenses) & crashing:
See every mon that gets HJK with the exception of Scratfy and some of the Hitmons
13 (HJK) + 3 (STAB) + 3 (Difference) x 1.5 = 28.5 [14.25]
SE JK (Using Rank 5 Atk mon vs average defenses) & crashing:
All the mons that get it after a likely nature change (Hitmonlee is better using HJK)
10 (HJK) + 3 (Difference) x 1.5 = 19.5 [9.75][/box]
As you can see 15 & 10 are really close if a bit higher than what a regular SE HJK and JK would do against an average mon, you can even check the difference unto an item that boost offense or againt a pokemon with bellow average defenses
This should have been done, but after Glacier raised a point following the Mega Punch vote, we need to do this...
Proposing an amendment that whenever an Instant Run-off Voting slate is used for voting, council members must include all listed options in the slate to make their vote, in order of preference with the top option the most preferred.
This should go without saying, but lately there has been concerns since council members (Yes I did it once, shut up) have not been including all options, which do not help the votes & what happens when all their options get voted down. This fixes that issue.
This—I feel—does not need a discussion (There is not much to discuss at all), & I want this to go directly to a vote if this gets enough support. Other than that, feel free to comment. I will prolly open a vote with enough support.
Proposing an amendment that whenever an Instant Run-off Voting slate is used for voting, council members must include all listed options in the slate to make their vote, in order of preference with the top option the most preferred.
This should go without saying, but lately there has been concerns since council members (Yes I did it once, shut up) have not been including all options, which do not help the votes & what happens when all their options get voted down. This fixes that issue.
This—I feel—does not need a discussion (There is not much to discuss at all), & I want this to go directly to a vote if this gets enough support. Other than that, feel free to comment. I will prolly open a vote with enough support.
Supporting w/o discussion
let's get to voting for it, its simple enough
let's get to voting for it, its simple enough
In IRV, not listing all options indicates that you don't care about the choices afterwards. When all the listed options get voted down, it's true that their vote no longer counts; however, this isn't an issue at all because they've already indicated they don't care what happens with the voting result at that point.
For example, if you're voting on an activity to pursue and your choices are "torture," "death," "eating," and "sleeping," your ballot may look like "eating > sleeping." If both eating and sleeping are knocked out of the poll, you don't care about whether you should be tortured or die. Is there an issue with this? I don't see one.
For example, if you're voting on an activity to pursue and your choices are "torture," "death," "eating," and "sleeping," your ballot may look like "eating > sleeping." If both eating and sleeping are knocked out of the poll, you don't care about whether you should be tortured or die. Is there an issue with this? I don't see one.
Yeah, this really needs to be enforced. The whole point of having an odd number of council members is to reduce the likelihood of ties. If someone doesn't vote for all options, then what happens when all their options are eliminated? We end up with eight votes, which is more likely to result in a tie.
In a similar vein, I'd like to suggest that "Abstain" not be a legal vote unless it's already not legal.
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