DP Tier Discussion Thread - BL and UU

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Kabutops should be in BL. If it gets a Rain Dance boost, it could sweep really good with a STAB'd boosted Waterfall, and with Brick Break, Aggron and Probopass couldn't wall it.
Well if you have a Rain boosted Waterfall you wouldn't bother with using Brick Break.

Granted, Kabutops does have plenty of sweeping potential in the rain, however I'm currently in a bind as to whether it would be too powerful for UU. You must remember that UU is home to plenty more bulky Grass types than OU who can hold their own without being gimmicky, and can easily deal with Kabutops. Rain Dance does hurt their only effective recovery, but it also gives them one less weakness.

I haven't used Kabutops competitively yet so I cannot make a judgment on where it stands, however I would like to hear from people who have and where they would consider it to be.
 
I find it hard to believe Typhlosion is up for debate at all. The specs version is utterly insane. Granted, most of it's power lies in Eruption (keeping him healthy in UU would be even less of an issue), but the secondary fire attack option it carries is going to hurt nearly as much if it manages to activate Blaze. With 78/78/85, it can take a hit, and that hit will more often than not be super effective and bring him below 33%. For the record, it takes 297SpA to guarantee a OHKO with a STABed Surf (neutral nature base 100 w/max EVs are 299, and have no chance of OHKO without EVs), and 396Atk for an unSTABed EQ (an attack stat that positive nature base 130s can't reach without a boost).

I guess people are thinking about Grumpig here, but even Calm 252HP/96SpD versions take 37.91% - 44.51%from Eruption. And what exactly is Typhlosion going to fear most of the time from Grumpig? A Calm Resttalker is about the only version that can deal with it - any sweeper oriented versions are going to have to be at full health in order to hope to be able to take two hits.


After using a DD Lapras (Sub/DD/Waterfall/Return) extensively, I can say that it should not be underestimated. Huge HP subs and decent defenses allow it to get off more DDs than you'd think, while Water Absorb and 4x Ice Resist give it a good amount of opportunities to switch in. Add in the fact that it's often a threatening special attacker with boltbeam and status options (granted Sing is painful to use), and one wrong switch can be your doom. Seriously, this thing has no business in UU.


I'm going to have to back up Absol too, actually. I think he's a bit much for UU now because he improved so drastically this gen. Absol has Swords Dance and STAB Sucker Punch from 130 base attack, first of all. He also has his critical hit increasing ability, along with both Night Slash and Psycho Cut to take advantage of it. His low-ish speed can be boosted with a Scarf if needed, and his lackluster defenses could warrant a Focus Sash in some cases. As for support options, he can Baton Pass Swords Dance, Calm Mind, and Mean Look, using Taunt to back himself up if needed. Double status works on him to some extent too. His versitility can actually be utilized now that he has not only a STAB physical to work with, but has great moves like Sucker Punch to abuse.

Honchkrow is a completely different story, though. You can achieve success with it, but generally it relies too heavily on luck to pull much off. It can attack from either side, but it's lack of speed really hurts. I really don't see it doing all that much in UU.


As far as Shedinja goes - it should stay in BL. It's annoying enough to deal with now with Focus Sash and Protect abuse, and it's 'counters' (weather, SR, spikes, etc) will be seen less in UU. It's actually more dangerous defensively than offensively in that even if most of your team has moves that can kill it, Protect solves. Using Protect also completely shuts down prediction from Choice users because if you don't use a move that hurts it, it gets a free turn. Of course, it's usually more of an annoyance than anything, but it's mere presence can screw you over late game, especially if you don't know they have it until then. You also sometimes forget that it often carries Swords Dance and two physical STABs, one being a priority move.


Some opinions on Relicanth would be nice. STAB Head Smash with Rock Head plus a STAB Waterfall is kind of dangerous with either Rock Polish or Trick Room, not to mention it can take a hit and use CB effectively. It's powerful, but I'm not exactly sure if it's UU-breaking or anything.


Scyther will most likely be the hardest decision, but I just don't have the experience with it in D/P yet to make any claims.
 
No reason Gligar should remain UU, unless you are going to promote unevolved pokemon in UU.

Saying that Gligar is an exception because "it's always been" doesn't work, it recieved an evolution (aka improvements) that make it staple for OU play, saying otherwise would be like saying Gyarados should be UU because it was pre- eq/dd. "Gligar should be UU because it was pre-Gliscor" I say, no.
 

Mario With Lasers

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Actually, here's something to consider: HP Fighting on Swellow doesn't sound as bad as you think. With Guts activated, you do roughly 52.62% - 61.92% on Aggron (252 HP EVs). Considerably that's basically a 2HKO most of the time. This is assuming, however, Neutral Nature for both Swellow and Aggron, and Swellow not packing EVs into Special Attack, nor Aggron with Special Defense. However I'd only consider HP Fighting if Swellow was UU.
Wait, doesn't Guts boost only Attack, not Sp. Attack? How does a burned/poisoned Swellow do more damage with HP Fight than a healthy one?
 
Some opinions on Relicanth would be nice. STAB Head Smash with Rock Head plus a STAB Waterfall is kind of dangerous with either Rock Polish or Trick Room, not to mention it can take a hit and use CB effectively. It's powerful, but I'm not exactly sure if it's UU-breaking or anything.
I use one myself quite regularly and so I believe I can add some input.

Head Smash in raw power has the same output as a Rampardos Stone Edge. Its defenses and HP are insane, I EV'd my own one so it can actually survive a max STAB CC from Infernape with at least 30% HP intact and even STAB 394 attack Garchomp EQ.

CBRelicanth is the equivilent of a Rampardos Head Smash with no recoil and a STAB Waterfall to fall back on.

HOWEVER. Grass attacks pretty much maul it. Quite badly I might add and they're all over the place in BL and even UU because of threats like Quagsire and Gastrodon.
 
No reason Gligar should remain UU, unless you are going to promote unevolved pokemon in UU.

Saying that Gligar is an exception because "it's always been" doesn't work, it recieved an evolution (aka improvements) that make it staple for OU play, saying otherwise would be like saying Gyarados should be UU because it was pre- eq/dd. "Gligar should be UU because it was pre-Gliscor" I say, no.
Yes, and there is nothing that separates Gligar from Gliscor for use in another tier, honestly. They're basically the same pokemon, unlike the more drastic evolutions that change type and stat distribution.
 
Yes, and there is nothing that separates Gligar from Gliscor for use in another tier, honestly. They're basically the same pokemon, unlike the more drastic evolutions that change type and stat distribution.

Indeed, it's a direct, indisputable improvement, nothing debateable and obviously meant to be used differently such as scyther/scizor. Gliscor is intended, and was added to directly improve Gligar.
 
Might I make a case for Dewgong? No? Well, gonna do it anyway.
While at first glance Dewgong's stats are nothing impressive, I found that it has a tendency to stay around far longer as you'd expect him to be. It has RainRest with its ability, allowing it to stall and have a lot of Full Restores at once. The problem is that Dewgong won't be scaring away anything so it might be a bit setup bait, but it always has STAB'd Ice Beam to wave around. I think Dewgong will actually need a lot of testing before it's stuffed in UU - It MIGHT be too tenacious there.

As for Linoone - I noticed people put it very high due to Belly Drum + Gluttony. But ain't that combo illegal to get?
 
I find it hard to believe Typhlosion is up for debate at all. The specs version is utterly insane. Granted, most of it's power lies in Eruption (keeping him healthy in UU would be even less of an issue), but the secondary fire attack option it carries is going to hurt nearly as much if it manages to activate Blaze. With 78/78/85, it can take a hit, and that hit will more often than not be super effective and bring him below 33%. For the record, it takes 297SpA to guarantee a OHKO with a STABed Surf (neutral nature base 100 w/max EVs are 299, and have no chance of OHKO without EVs), and 396Atk for an unSTABed EQ (an attack stat that positive nature base 130s can't reach without a boost).

I guess people are thinking about Grumpig here, but even Calm 252HP/96SpD versions take 37.91% - 44.51%from Eruption. And what exactly is Typhlosion going to fear most of the time from Grumpig? A Calm Resttalker is about the only version that can deal with it - any sweeper oriented versions are going to have to be at full health in order to hope to be able to take two hits.
Though a Modest Typhlosion's Eruption at full HP is pretty powerful, you seem to be ignoring the fact that it grows weaker as his hp goes down, which will undoubtedly happen. Typhlosion doesn't have any immunities to come in on, and even if you're switching him in on a KO he still has to deal with residual damage from Stealth Rock and Spikes, which reduce the power of Eruption.

That being said, I still believe that Typhlosion is BL material - even if Eruption is gone, it still has Overheat to use, and Focus Punch + HP Grass/Ice provide good coverage elsewhere.

Oh, and...since I don't see Chansey, I'm guessing this list is ignoring pre-evolutions altogether, or at least pre-evolutions that are almost exactly like their evolved forms (Scyther - Scizor play very differently, but Chansey and Blissey are almost the same, etc).
 

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Wait, doesn't Guts boost only Attack, not Sp. Attack? How does a burned/poisoned Swellow do more damage with HP Fight than a healthy one?

You are correct, Mr. Lasers.
Shoot, that slipped out on accident, sorry. Then I guess then that would make HP Fighting still safe if Swellow went down to UU play. >_>;

*Shoots self for forgetting Guts doesn't activate Special Attack*.
 

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Though a Modest Typhlosion's Eruption at full HP is pretty powerful, you seem to be ignoring the fact that it grows weaker as his hp goes down, which will undoubtedly happen. Typhlosion doesn't have any immunities to come in on, and even if you're switching him in on a KO he still has to deal with residual damage from Stealth Rock and Spikes, which reduce the power of Eruption.
Eruption would be on a lead Specs user in most cases - it could run Eruption/Flamethrower/HP Ice or Grass/filler for example.
 
Eruption would be on a lead Specs user in most cases - it could run Eruption/Flamethrower/HP Ice or Grass/filler for example.
That's true, it does get one free shot at the enemy's team (barring the chance that the enemy lead is something that forces you to switch out). My main point was that unlike, say...Specsmence, it doesn't retain that huge amount of power through the whole match without using another move such as Overheat.


Also, Mamoswine is very much BL. Ice isn't quite as great of an attack type in UU as it is in OU, but Mamo still gets excellent coverage against a lot of stuff, and can really destroy any UU physical walls. The Rock/Steel types are eaten alive by EQ, Gligar can't take Ice attacks (and any other bulky ground types like Sandslash will take a fair amount of damage as well), and Bulky UU water types still take big chunks damage from an Earthquake considering Mamoswine's 130 base attack, especially if it's packing CB (A 252/252 Impish Quagsire takes 37.06% - 43.40% from an Adamant EQ, 55.08% - 64.72% should Mamoswine be packing CB. Cloyster won't like Stone Edge either, should it end up in UU). A 252/252 Solrock takes 42.15% - 49.42% from a CB Stone Edge - not a real counter considering it lacks a reliable recovery move. In addition, Mamoswine's very bulky for UU.
 
Hmm, considering that the staple of my team is not listed (Walrein) I figure I should bring it up for debate.

While the obvious Stallrein strategy may not work so much without hail in UU, don't forget we're looking at a wall who survives Stone Edge from CB Heracross and has enough HP left over to create a substitute and start the sub/protect cycle till Heracross dies.

In Defense Tiers, Walrein is stronger or ties both Weezing and Dusknoir on both Sp. Def and Physical Def sides.

Furthermore, it gets Encore, Yawn, and can start up the hailstorm itself to constantly heal for a few turns in a row. Healing 12.5% when using protect is insane.

With 80 Attack, it is large enough to pull off a Curse set (yes, it gets curse too) and bulky enough to be a physical version of Snorelax. It gets stockpile to increase both its defenses, and even gets body slam for paralysis hax. Swagger reliably confuses Sp. Attacking foes.

On the Sp. Attacking side, it has access to STAB Water/Ice, resisted only by water pokemon. Quite decent with 95 base Sp. Atk.

On the Physical Attacking side, it has access to Ground/Rock with earthquake/Rock Slide, resisted only by levitators.

I dunno about you, but even without weather, it seems that Walrein is ready for OU play.
 

Jumpman16

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i am pretty sure we've explicitly stated not to talk about pokemon and their relation to OUs or the OU metagame so i am confused as to why you would end your post with such blatant disregard for our warnings
 
Correct me if I'm wrong. But my understanding is this.

If it is too powerful for UU, then it is BL, aka, possible in OU play, banned from UU play.

Second: If it is very important that we don't talk about the relationship to OU, then can you edit it into the first post?

EDIT: Bah, I'm too tired and I'm not being clear. What I mean is... Walrein seems like it is strong enough to wall OU sweepers, and in practice is able to do so with hail support. Without hail support (aka, UU), it is still an excellent wall, can start the hail by itself, and is very versatile. In OU, it can probably stand on its own, and with that said, it is probably far too strong for UU.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong. But my understanding is this.

If it is too powerful for UU, then it is BL, aka, possible in OU play, banned from UU play.

Second: If it is very important that we don't talk about the relationship to OU, then can you edit it into the first post?

EDIT: Bah, I'm too tired and I'm not being clear. What I mean is... Walrein seems like it is strong enough to wall OU sweepers, and in practice is able to do so with hail support. Without hail support (aka, UU), it is still an excellent wall, can start the hail by itself, and is very versatile. In OU, it can probably stand on its own, and with that said, it is probably far too strong for UU.
Without hail support from abomasnow, Walrein is esentially the same as it was in Advance, and adding hail to it's moveset would be limiting it even further.......
 
In OU, it can probably stand on its own, and with that said, it is probably far too strong for UU.
Eh...just because something is usable in a higher tier doesn't mean it's too strong for a lower tier. This could be because of typing, threats and conditions from that tier, etc. For example, Metagross sees a fair amount of use in ubers. Does that mean that it's too strong for OU? Or using the weather point...Exeggutor is fairly usable in ubers because it's greatly improved with Drought support. By your logic, it would be too good for BL because it's good enough for use in ubers (or, rather, by the point you made above, not by your overall logic). You could make the same analogy with Cradily and Sandstream support, etc.
 
/\ Thats true. I guess it depends on what kind of UU metagame we want to face.

Just when I see this little blurb in Shoddybattle...
Garchomp used Outrage.
Walrein lost 42% of its health.
When I'm running Speed EVs to beat Skarm and other Phazers... do you really think that UU sweepers can take him on?
 

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Might I make a case for Dewgong? No? Well, gonna do it anyway.
While at first glance Dewgong's stats are nothing impressive, I found that it has a tendency to stay around far longer as you'd expect him to be. It has RainRest with its ability, allowing it to stall and have a lot of Full Restores at once. The problem is that Dewgong won't be scaring away anything so it might be a bit setup bait, but it always has STAB'd Ice Beam to wave around. I think Dewgong will actually need a lot of testing before it's stuffed in UU - It MIGHT be too tenacious there.

As for Linoone - I noticed people put it very high due to Belly Drum + Gluttony. But ain't that combo illegal to get?
As much as I like Dewgong, even I have to admit that Dewgong is nowhere near BL.

First of all, the only Pokemon that provides infinite rain is uber, forcing you to 'waste' a turn to use Rain Dance yourself. STAB Ice Beam and STAB Surf will not scare too many Pokemon in BL seeing as they both come from a crappy 70 stat, and Dewgong can't hurt things like Lapras and Lanturn in UU as much as it wants, which moreover carry immediate Thunderbolt threats. And Dewgong basically doesn't have ANY other attacking move (Hidden Power is exceedingly weak and it has to make room for Rain Dance and Rest anyway).

Secondly, Linoone learns Belly Drum by level-up in DP. I don't see how that is illegal with Gluttony.
 

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Regarding Linnone, you might be thinking of the Belly Drum + Gluttony + Extremespeed Linoone. It's still possible to get if you transfer the Extremespeed Zigzagoon in through Pal Park and the ability changed the Gluttony upon evolution. If you're looking for good stats as well, it's still possible, but very unlikely through normal means.
 
When I'm running Speed EVs to beat Skarm and other Phazers... do you really think that UU sweepers can take him on?
For one thing, Stallrein relies on Abomasnow which is moved to BL thats one threat out of the ballpark.

I imagine any half decent Tentacruel, Blastoise, Hariyama, Random Hitmon, Politoed, Quagsire, Shuckle and depending on the decision Poliwrath all enjoy screwing around with the various versions of Walrein. Although Tentacruel would be vulnerable to the physical version.

Speaking from personal experience I do know Politoed and Quagsire are more than capable of stopping it dead. Also speaking from having used a Walrein before in Advance Hariyama really does eat into Walrein quite easily and I doubt neither has changed that drastically in that area.

Basically a important thing to note is it doesn't matter if it can handle itself in OU. Druidcruel is famed for being able to do entire sweeps in both the OU and UU environments but its still always been just a high tier UU.
 
While I see how including unevolved Pokemon can be hard, it's not entirely unecessary. I don't want to see Kadabra and Chansey in a UU battle. So I think there should be some rules that would cover them.

1. Ban any unevolved Pokemon to BL that is too good for UU play. (Chansey, Haunter, Kadabra, etc.)
2. In cases of three stage evolutions where the final evolved form is OU: First stage goes to NU, second to UU.
3. In cases of three stage evolutions where the final evolved form is BL: All preevolutions go to NU.
4. In cases of two stage evolutions where the final evolved form is OU: First stage goes to UU.
5. In cases of two stage evolutions where the final evolved form is BL: First stage goes to NU.
6. In cases of three or two stage evolutions where the final evolved form is UU/NU: All preevolved forms go to NU.
7. In cases of branch evolutions: The determining tier is that of the lowest tier final evolution.
8. Wynaut sucks, it's NU.

I can't think of any Pokemon that would break this, and I think it's a good idea. It might need some tweaking, though.
 
I didn't see Pikachu on the list, but I say Pika is definitely BL material. With Light Ball now working for Attack and Sp. Attack, Pika becomes very versatile. He's speedy, plus he gets Grass Knot for Grounds/Swampert, Volt Tackle (imo one of the best Electric moves), Brick Break for Normals (yeah Chansey/Snorlax/Lickililly, I'm talking about you), and even Substitute, which will go first practically every time with Pika's high speed.
 
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