DP Tier Discussion Thread - BL and UU

[glassbutterfly]

Hypno learns Wish.

Well, I guess I rest my case on Cradily.

I believe Swellow should have a spot for BL teams. Fast Guts user without being locked into one attack as well as possessing stabbed Facade makes her a very strong contender for a physical sweeper spot in BL teams. The lack of fight type attacks hurts her appeal and has trouble getting past Probopass, Aggron and Bastiodon, however. If Honchkrow is BL, so should Swellow.

 

[Hrothgar]

As someone who has played nothing but the BL pseudo-tier for the last couple of weeks, i can tell you with experience that froslass is right up there with shaymin, jolteon, scizor, flygon and ambipom as one of the best BL pokemon, and therefore, she is too strong for UU. Amazing type coverage of ghost/ice/electric combined with the dual stabs, high speed, immunity to scizor's quick attack/Abomasnow's hail, and a speedy destiny bond all mesh extremely well.

She even does well in OU; Froslass was an integral part of the last match that my BL team beat an OU team, taking out gyarados, salamence, and blissey, and being called "definitely too strong for BL" by my defeated opponent. I don't agree with his sentiments of course (he also said my shaymin was uber, what does that tell you), but i'm just giving an example of her current power level. She'd wreck UU, in my opinion.

As for Ambipom and Mamoswine, they are fine where they are, as Ambipom is quite like Froslass in BL power and usage, although Mamoswine is hardly seen outside of hail teams. Scyther, however, can beat it to UU in my opinion. Stealth Rock just cripples it to the point of no return.

And one more little tidbit: Honchkrow. They just kinda die whenever they appear. It simply isn't a strong pokemon, and I can't see how the much more powerful Swellow is UU while Honchkrow is BL.

 

[Fishin]

Also, I think there's a strong case for Crobat being BL. It's faster than nearly anything in UU not named Electrode, even without a speed-increasing nature (actually, IIRC it doesn't beat base 115's, but those aren't very common, only UU one I can think of now is Persian), so it can use an offensive stat-boosting nature to increase it's power. Normally it'd get walled to hell by all the Rock/Steel types hanging out there and UU would make sense, but HP Fighting or Ground would wreck them on a Nasty Plot set, which would be extremely effective in UU, since he's faster than basically anything, can hit Grumpig and Hypno (the best special walls in UU) pretty hard with Shadow Ball, and has a fair amount of durability especially considering his fast roost and good (for UU) defenses of 85/80/80.

I'm torn on Swellow, as it's damn effective with a Burn orb, but the Rock/Steel types wall it completely and HP fighting isn't gonna do much off 50 base sp atk.

 

[Gmax]

OK, leave the Zam part out. Its still a really powerful Pokemon. STAB CB Aqua Jet/Waterfall from it does a LOT to a lot of Pokemon.

 

[Chill]

And one more little tidbit: Honchkrow. They just kinda die whenever they appear. It simply isn't a strong pokemon, and I can't see how the much more powerful Swellow is UU while Honchkrow is BL.

I'm guessing suckerpunch.

Choice band+383 Attack+ 80 strength attack+STAB+priorty=BL

It's not defenseivly strong but it can switch into more pokemon than you might think.

 

[celestial_okami]

In that case, Cacturn says hi.

If Linoone Digs said Cacturne (a suggested move in the Analysis index), will Sucker Punch hit on the first turn (because an attack was selected) and then miss on the second (because it is underground?)?

Or will it perhaps miss both turns because it did not 'attack' on the first turn and is not present to be attacked on the second (presuming sucker punch fails to hit pokemon who aren't present due to these kinds of moves?)

I'm not sure this kind of thing has been researched because Fly, Dig, etc aren't usually used.

MK's Calculator gives 68.68% - 80.78% for Max atk. Linoone Dig vs no Def. EV Cacturne, who in turn will deal 66% minimum (max atk positive nature) with Sucker Punch, although if he can do so remains uncertain (?). Linoone's in/vulnerability to Sucker Punch is relevant, so I just thought I would bring it up.


I'm also sort of getting a weird feeling uncertainty as to how the tiers are being considered. When the difference between OU and BL tier is based on usage and between BL and UU based on power, you basically say that anything you put into BL should be equal in power (but not in usage) to an OU. I would be fairly certain that we could find a pokemon who is too powerful for UU but not powerful enough to be considered an little-used OU (aka a BL).

Regardless, I don't think Linoone is quite fit for BL (remember, OUs people don't use) when something like Garchomp can Swords Dance once and achieve a slightly high attack stat while possessing better defenses, and without losing half its HP in the process and not being able to come in to do it again later when something goes wrong. Admittedly Garchomp doesn't have the Speed Linoone does after Salac and isn't 4x Ice weak, but it doesn't require setup from a team mate.

 

[obi]

OK, after going through this thread, I'm delivering a verbal warning here, so ignore this at your own risk. If you make a post in here recommending a change, but in that same post demonstrate that you either completely do not understand the point of tiers or have no knowledge of competitive battling ("Pikachu should be UU because it's cute!"), then I will infract you.

I am not saying that everyone I respond to in this post deserves an infraction. Misunderstanding the tiers in and of itself is also not worthy of infraction. If you don't understand, then ask for clarification. The point is that if the meaning of something is fuzzy, you shouldn't just start saying "I think Pokemon X should be in this tier because of reasons irrelevant to the tier placement I suggested". It doesn't help us. Remember that we do not determine this by a majority-rule, so posting stuff that does not support your argument or is completely irrelevant will not accomplish anything except to annoy us, the moderators. So, before I get into specific responses, here is yet another overview on tiers. Here is how I consider how a Pokemon is categorized.

Begin with all Pokemon. This is what's allowed in ubers.

Find Pokemon that create imbalance. When they are banned (these are the Pokemon in the uber tier), what remains is allowed in OU.

At some point of how often Pokemon are used, you decide that a certain set of Pokemon belongs in UU. However, as this is based on how often stuff is used, it's not yet balanced. This is why we introduce the BL tier. BL Pokemon are things that, based purely on usage, should be UU, but are too strong in UU to be allowed. How good they are in ubers or OU is irrelevant. If they are not used much in OU and are too powerful to be balanced with other Pokemon that aren't used much, they go to BL. If they aren't too powerful in relation to other not-used-much Pokemon, they go to UU. This is the point of discussion here.

True, but if the pig goes up to BL, they could actually cause some damage either in wearing the opponent down or simply shredding them with STAB EQs. You are correct, hail isn't common, but, when it's the only weather available that doesn't go away after 5 or 8 turns, and can negate the leftovers recovery of the BL walls, it might actually be useful in that environment. There is no guarantee though, even though I ran a somewhat successful hail/ice team on shoddy in the OU environment, and it did pretty well. However, this is just my experience. Others may find hail to be completely useless.

There is no such thing as a "BL" ruleset, at least not in Smogon. BL is not a balanced tier. It exists only to balance UU. As far as Smogon is concerned, OU, UU, and NU are the only tiers meant to be balanced. Therefore, we do not support BL metagames, meaning there is no official time in which Hail is the only possible auto-weather.

In that case, Cacturn says hi.

And is promptly OHKOed by Belly Drum Extremespeed. Sucker Punch and Extremespeed have the same priority, and Linoone is significantly faster than Cacturne, even without a Salac Berry (and with it, it doesn't have to worry about a Choice Scarf Cacturne or whatever).

sucker punch doesnt affect linoone and linoone stil has trouble getting past aggron and other pokemon with high defense, it gets rock smash but that doesnt help as much.

Sucker Punch is Dark, not Ghost, so yes, it does effect Linoone.

The Nasty Plot set, IMO, has better coverage from Persian since it can learn even Power Gem for "Special" Rock-coverage. However Persian should be UU just because his Attack stats are meh-ish at best.

Persian should never use Power Gem, though. It obviously has to use Nasty Plot on such a set, and it will likely want to use Swift for STAB and some good general coverage. Shadow Ball is good to hit Solrock, Lunatone, and any Ghosts you may encounter. You also have Thunderbolt on there for high power. You can use Hidden Power Fighting 60 for a 90 power special Fighting move to combo nicely with Swift. Maybe you'll use Water Pulse to hit Gligar, Golem, and the like hard? There really isn't any reason to use Power Gem, so that's not really relevant.

I'm torn on Swellow, as it's damn effective with a Burn orb, but the Rock/Steel types wall it completely and HP fighting isn't gonna do much off 50 base sp atk.

Swellow wouldn't use Hidden Power Fighting; it would use Steel Wing or Endeavor.

I'm also sort of getting a weird feeling uncertainty as to how the tiers are being considered. When the difference between OU and BL tier is based on usage and between BL and UU based on power, you basically say that anything you put into BL should be equal in power (but not in usage) to an OU. I would be fairly certain that we could find a pokemon who is too powerful for UU but not powerful enough to be considered an little-used OU (aka a BL).

No, you couldn't find such a Pokemon. We are not at all saying that all Pokemon in the BL tier are equal in power to all Pokemon in the OU tier. This is obviously incorrect, as no one could reasonably argue that even all OUs are equal in power. For instance, Tyranitar is generally more powerful than Aerodactyl (yes, I know they are different, but they're close enough). However, they are considered in the same tier of power, because the line of demarcation runs exactly between OU / BL and UU.

The tiers are not as quantized as you may believe, but rather, there are subtle gradations within each tier in terms of power. However, we draw that line by saying "This Pokemon would unbalance UU, regardless of how well it does in OU matches."

What he was saying is that there is no difference in power between OU and BL Pokemon as far as how the tiers are defined goes. If Salamence suddenly stopped being used for some strange reason, it would, in fact, drop to BL, because power has no role in determining that. The only difference between UU and BL is power. They both fall in the same range of how often they are used. Similarly, BL and OU Pokemon both fall in the same range of power (somewhere above UU).

Regardless, I don't think Linoone is quite fit for BL (remember, OUs people don't use) when something like Garchomp can Swords Dance once and achieve a slightly high attack stat while possessing better defenses, and without losing half its HP in the process and not being able to come in to do it again later when something goes wrong. Admittedly Garchomp doesn't have the Speed Linoone does after Salac and isn't 4x Ice weak, but it doesn't require setup from a team mate.

The performance of Pokemon in OU is irrelevant in deciding whether a Pokemon should be UU or BL. All that matters is whether the Pokemon is too powerful for UU. As much as Linoone / whatever is being discussed fanboys may hate this, we are not looking to keep any given Pokemon from being outclassed. If there were two Pokemon who were identical in every way, except one of them had 50 more base Attack and Special Attack (and would thus be superior in every situation), if the weaker Pokemon were still found to be too powerful for UU, then it would get bumped up to BL, even though that would relegate it to not being used on a competitive team, because it would still unbalance UU.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Everything I've seen of Regigigas in practice indicates that it does even worse than it did in theorycraft. It has less attack than Farfetch'd before Slow Start goes away, and 5 turns in a very long time to last when you don't have Protect or Rest and can't really threaten anything more defensive than Alakazam. UU is dominated by strong offensive Pokemon, and Regigigas's stalling efforts mostly center around parafusion. Substitute doesn't really work to help him on this front because he's too slow to outspeed much of anything and too weak to be able to force anything out so he can sub on the switch. To seal his doom, even if he manages to stall out enough turns that he is starting to get close to getting it going, any phazer can instantly set him back to square one. He should be put in UU for sure.

I would also agree with Shedinja for UU (or even NU). He's not a strong enough attacker to be an especially dangerous threat on that end so he pretty much has to rely on being able to switch in on things that can't hurt him. I really can't imagine building a team on any tier that doesn't have several ways to deal with Shedinja. There are the five types that make him instantly lose, any form of spikes makes him useless until you spin it, and then there are all those random damaging status conditions. Even in UU, Shedinja should really not be a big problem for any good team.

 

[Lee]

As a consistent Swellow user, I'd like to give my opinion.

Swellow is obviously powerful and fast, but it won't last long in any tier. A Stealth Rock weakness, Toxic Orb damage, Brave Bird recoil and 60/60/50 defences severely hamper it. Also, consider the fact that it is walled incredibly easily. If used in BL (and thus OU), he's walled easily by the likes of Skarmory, Bronzong, Metagross, Tyranitar, Steelix and plenty of others. His most offensive moveset would be Facade/BraveBird/U-Turn/Steel Wing, and that combination is resisted outright by most Steel types. Put simply...switch in a Steel, the opponent switches out Swellow. And it's incredibly hard to get Swellow back in.

He can really hurt unprepared teams, but any competitive player can shut him down pretty sharpish. To suggest he should be in the same tier as Staraptor seems shortsighted to me. Close Combat and Intimidate truly do put Staraptor a step above Swellow. A Choice Band Close Combat can do up to 41% on max/max/ Impish Skarmory, and 2HKO the less sturdy Metagross sets. And Tyranitar...well, you could imagine. Although also fragile, Intimidate gives him a lot of chances to get in. And whilst you could argue, well Swellow has Toxic Orb, you'd be forgetting that Staraptor has Choice Band.

Jolly Swellow with Guts activated: 403
Jolly Staraptor with Choice Band: 508

If both Swellow and Staraptor were in BL, why on earth would you consider Swellow? Unless it was a gimmick/theme team or you have a need for speed, you'll be seriously disadvantaging yourself.

Swellow can also be walled fairly easily in UU, with the likes of Aggron, Solrock, Probopass, Bastiodon, Relicanth, Golem, Sudowoodo, Omastar and many others. I can't see him running rampant in that tier by any means.

EDIT:

As far as Smogon is concerned, OU, UU, and NU are the only tiers meant to be balanced.

Just realised this quote negates my whole "Why use Swellow when you've got Staraptor?" argument. Never mind.

 

[X-Act]

I'd like to promote discussion about Slowking going from UU to BL.

Slowking has better overall Special Defense than Grumpig, due to its higher HP, and because of its Water type, also resists Ice and Fire, matching Grumpig. It is similar to Hypno in the SpDef department too. In addition, Slowking has better defense than both of them, and now sports an instant recovery move in Slack Off, unlike both. It has also access to a better range of Special attacks than both, and moreover has a higher stat (100) to use them. With Nasty Plot, it can also use those attacks to good effect. I'm also sure that Slowking in Trick Room conditions would be quite nasty.

In OU/BL, it would have its uses as one of the relatively reliable Infernape counters that the game can offer (resists both of its STAB moves, and can instantly recover the damage dealt), and special Lucario. As I mention in the Slowking thread, Slowking has a high enough SpDef to ward off two Specsmence Draco Meteors and recover the damage with Slack Off (or just OHKO it with Ice Beam), too.

 

[Forsety]

Hypno learns Wish.

Not naturally it doesn't. Chances of getting a Hypno that doesn't suck with Wish are very small to the point that Hypno would be BL in a Netbattle type environment but its still relegated to UU within a real life environment.

On a sidenote about Froslass I really don't think it should join the BL ranks all it really does have going for it is just speed. Having a Boltbeam is nice and all but it really does lack power behind its moves. I've seen Skarmory's take Froslass's Thunderbolts and even Gyarados occasionally survive them. Shadowball doesn't cover anything worthwhile unless you have STAB AND a stat upper like say Missmagius.

Its effective no doubt but it just doesn't have the actual stats to back it up.

I mean try comparing it to something like Crobat who by merit of its sheer stats allows it to outspeed everything in the game, sleep, take less than 50% from no STAB Stone Edge, hit for good damage and a reliable recovery move to top it all off.

 

[Trust]

Armaldo should be BL, with a CB set, and Stone Edge/X-Scissors STAB, it's too strong to UU, and only faster sleepers as Persian could fit with him.

 

[Deck Knight]

As a man who used Mamoswine religiously on every serious OU team I've ever made, I must say Mamoswine should go into BL.

Yeah, its great that Mamoswine has 5 weaknesses: Fighting, Steel, Grass, Water, Fire.

But riddle me this: What do you propose is going to switch into Mamoswine to take care of it? Name me one, just one UU pokemon that can switch into CB Earthquake, CB Stone Edge, and CB Ice Shard more than twice.

Off the top of my head, Reflect Solrock is the only thing I can think of. Feraligatr and Poliwrath get 2HKOd by EQ. Fire and Steel types have no business switching in, and Bronzong, Cresselia, and Skarmory aren't around to laugh at it.

 

[Davimert]

I'd say that both Regigigas and Shedinja should be UU.
It is very hard to keep Regigigas in for 5 turns without meeting a phazer or something to set up on it, it has awful offensive power during Slow Start and really can't do shit.
Shedinja isn't going to do anything in BL/OU, it might pull of one SD'ed Shadow Sneak, which isn't very powerful against something neutral to it and it's simply too slow.

 

[Deck Knight]

Floatzel is very solidly BL as far as I can see. It's faster than basically all UU pokemon, and has a solid attacking movepool. Quagsire would be one of the few real counters, as it gets Ice Fang to deal with Meganium and other grass types, and of course ground/rock types are beaten by waterfall (Brick Break handles any steels). In addition to that, it would probably be one of the best passers thanks to it's excellent speed and taunt. I've used the BP set in OU with very good results.

I also believe that Azumarill is a definite BL. It's got a massive amount of power for UU and would almost have to be countered by water absorb (Quagsire).

Ice Fang won't deal with Meganium without a Freeze, or Floatzel being bulked up. The general rule with Meganium is UnSTABbed Ice attacks = LOL.

+1 Adamant Ice Fang from Floatzel on 252 HP/148 Def (the spread I generally use, with the rest in SDef and Calm) Meganium takes 48-56% damage from Ice Fang. This would be cool, were it not for the fact Meganium often carries Leech Seed or Giga Drain, and if you haven't bulked up you don't even 3HKO it.

Either way Floatzel is still BL material. A fast passer with Bulk Up is far too unbalancing, especially one that can essentially Howl + Agility with Rain Dance.

 

[absol_is_cool]

I think absol should go to BL. And no it is not because its my favourite pkmn. It has an insane 130 base attack. And if you had super luck with night slash and psycho cut you could get a lot of critical hits and do an insane amount of damage. In UU anyway. Although its speed is probly too low considering how low its defences are. Absol is the kind of pkmn thats too powerful for uu but will probly struggle in ou.

 

[Deck Knight]

I'n also wondering what it is that makes Torterra BL. I haven't used Torterra that much, but what experience I do have with it is that it has too many weaknesses to make up for the Ground/Rock resistance.

I don't see how it would unbalance UU. Anything with HP Ice or Ice Beam can scare it away, its stats, while well distributed, don't give it any gamebreaking defensive or offensive power. I'm struggling to see how Torterra would be anything more than a generic physical tank in UU. It would be able to take on Gligar, Zangoose (sans Ice Punch) and CB Solrock. It could deal decent damage with Earthquake and Wood Hammer, and it would have a Leech Seed option. I don't see how its anything more than a physical Venusaur (who I also feel shouldn't be BL, for similar reasons).

It does have a good support movepool with the screens, Subseed, and stealth rock, but it by no means overpowers anything in UU. Reflect Hypno counters it. Altaria counters it. Meganium counters it. Lunatone can switch in on anything other than Wood Hammer and drive it away with Ice Beam.

 

[marrilpet]

Also, I think there's a strong case for Crobat being BL. It's faster than nearly anything in UU not named Electrode, even without a speed-increasing nature (actually, IIRC it doesn't beat base 115's, but those aren't very common, only UU one I can think of now is Persian), so it can use an offensive stat-boosting nature to increase it's power. Normally it'd get walled to hell by all the Rock/Steel types hanging out there and UU would make sense, but HP Fighting or Ground would wreck them on a Nasty Plot set, which would be extremely effective in UU, since he's faster than basically anything, can hit Grumpig and Hypno (the best special walls in UU) pretty hard with Shadow Ball, and has a fair amount of durability especially considering his fast roost and good (for UU) defenses of 85/80/80.

I agree with this. He also learns Dark Pulse as a replacement for Shadow Ball that hits Normal types, and Air Cutter's flinch rate is deadly. I use him in my BL team and he consistantly takes down at least 2 Pokemon per match, more if I predict good.

 

[Lemmiwinks MkII]

I'n also wondering what it is that makes Torterra BL. I haven't used Torterra that much, but what experience I do have with it is that it has too many weaknesses to make up for the Ground/Rock resistance.

I don't see how it would unbalance UU. Anything with HP Ice or Ice Beam can scare it away, its stats, while well distributed, don't give it any gamebreaking defensive or offensive power. I'm struggling to see how Torterra would be anything more than a generic physical tank in UU. It would be able to take on Gligar, Zangoose (sans Ice Punch) and CB Solrock. It could deal decent damage with Earthquake and Wood Hammer, and it would have a Leech Seed option. I don't see how its anything more than a physical Venusaur (who I also feel shouldn't be BL, for similar reasons).

It does have a good support movepool with the screens, Subseed, and stealth rock, but it by no means overpowers anything in UU. Reflect Hypno counters it. Altaria counters it. Meganium counters it. Lunatone can switch in on anything other than Wood Hammer and drive it away with Ice Beam.

Lunatone would require almost max HP and Def to take two consecutive CB Superpowers from Torterra. after which Ice Beam may not OHKO.

The problem I see with Torterra is the same as that you have already mentioned regarding Mamoswine. With four 100+ power attacks, double STAB, 522 Attack and excellent type coverage, I fail to see anything in UU that switches in safely.

Therefore, unless you can point out a true 100% counter to it, I say it should be BL for the reasons highlighted above.

 

[marrilpet]

I'n also wondering what it is that makes Torterra BL. I haven't used Torterra that much, but what experience I do have with it is that it has too many weaknesses to make up for the Ground/Rock resistance.

I don't see how it would unbalance UU. Anything with HP Ice or Ice Beam can scare it away, its stats, while well distributed, don't give it any gamebreaking defensive or offensive power. I'm struggling to see how Torterra would be anything more than a generic physical tank in UU. It would be able to take on Gligar, Zangoose (sans Ice Punch) and CB Solrock. It could deal decent damage with Earthquake and Wood Hammer, and it would have a Leech Seed option. I don't see how its anything more than a physical Venusaur (who I also feel shouldn't be BL, for similar reasons).

It does have a good support movepool with the screens, Subseed, and stealth rock, but it by no means overpowers anything in UU. Reflect Hypno counters it. Altaria counters it. Meganium counters it. Lunatone can switch in on anything other than Wood Hammer and drive it away with Ice Beam.

Ice Beam is irrelevant. Most dragons die to the same thing, but you still see plenty of use out of them. With his crappy Speed, Curse will see tons of use and makes him way too overpowered for UU (most of which don't learn curse iirc).

 

[Gmax]

I propose that Gligar be made a BL. He now has Roost, which when combined with his decent speed and good defense will make him a real force in UU. If he goes with SD+Roost+EQ+Stone Edge, he will be very difficult to contend with in UU. I don't really see anything stopping it easily.

 

[TheMantyke]

I didn't see swellow on the BL set (or OU for that matter, but it probab;y won't make that) and swellow seems to be BL material. The burnorb set is just insane, you 2KO the weezing switch-in, and you just murder everything else. It's got an excellent 120 base speed, the likes of which outspeeds dugtrio, sceptile(BL? leafstorm with specs is good) alakazam, GENGAR, and everything not named weavile, aerodactyal, or crobat.

 

[the Lexx]

Going along with X-Act - Slowking got not only Nasty Plot but a 50% recovery move as well, making it extremely hard to stop. A Bold Calm Mind deserves a mention as well, which probably seems more viable actually since you totally stop special electrics (Manectric and Electabuzz won't be getting past a +2 Pokemon with such high base SDef)

Shedinja is kind of useless as well, at least in OU play. I can't see it doing much in UU either, but it's too powerful for NU.

 

[marrilpet]

I don't know if there's any arguement, but IMO Lickililly should stay BL. He's like a mini-Snorlax. With Curse + Return + Gyro Ball + Explosion, he has taken out almost entire BL teams for me. After two Curses, he only takes around 25 - 30% from most Brick Breaks. Heck, he even OHKO'd a Harihama with 6 Curses under his belt. The only thing that finally stopped him was Sandslash (god how I hate that thing!) Add Metronome on and he effectively becomes a steamroller.

 

[Lee]

It's got an excellent 120 base speed

125 actually. See my above post. And Toxic Orb > Flame Orb for the record. Agreeing with Deck Knight on Mamoswine. It's way too much for UU.