Ninetales (Nasty Plot)

I checked Ninetales' analysis and I noticed that the main option for Nasty Plot had Hypnosis and mentioned Grumpig and Camerupt; obviously written pre-BL release. I have tested this set fairly thoroughly, as well as Life Orb and Hypnosis (seperately) and have found this to be a) an effective sweeper and b) a solid lure for Milotic and the like.

[SET]
name: Nasty Plot Sweeper
move 1: Nasty Plot
move 2: Fire Blast
move 3: Energy Ball
move 4: Hidden Power Rock
item: Leftovers
nature: Timid
evs: 72 HP / 216 SpA / 220 Spe or 144 HP / 216 Spe / 148 SpA

Why this deserves to be on site:
- Totally different from Houndoom with base 100 SpD allowing it to set up on more
- Fastest fire type in UU (Entei?)
- After a Nasty Plot, your opponent is relying on priority or Chansey to kill it without issue
- Boosting move on a Fire-type + move to hit Fire's main resists is deadly

Additional comments:
- Second spread means you survive 0 SpA Milotic's Surf 100% of the time to retaliate with the Energy Ball 2HKO, plus outspeeds Arcanine.
- A little shaky on the second spread since Passho Houndoom kind of does it better than Ninetales, but Ninetales has a few advantages.

Team Options:
- Toxicroak can soak up Water-type attacks while luring out Fire-type moves
- Most Grass-types work well due to drawing in Fire-types and beating water types
- Something that fucks up Chansey and Clefable-Hariyama is always a solid choice.
- Counters before a Nasty Plot are pretty extensive, and it is fairly situational as it is. The best overall counters are Chansey and Clefable, as well as Milotic.
- Priority is probably the biggest threat to this set-Hitmontop, Absol, Azumarill, etc all KO easily.

I accidentally posted this in AA instead of QC. Could a moderator move it for me? Please and thank you.

I have my doubts about this. Discounting the fact that you put it in the wrong forum (which people do now and then), I don't see much reason why this is more effective than the Special Sweeper already up. I find that Hypnosis is a real boon against many opponents, as sleeping switch-ins with Hypnosis helps other teammates to sweep. Other than dealing with Moltres, I don't really see how HP Rock helps. Finally, Leftovers is an option with the Special Sweeper set. Unfortunately, I only see this as an inferior Special Sweeper.

If you're gonna go for "bulky Ninetales", theres a bulky CM Ninetales set floating around in C&C already, which does it much better. The LO special sweeper is much better imo.

No, Hypnosis definitely sucks major cock.

I used a stronger variant of the second spread (hits the leftovers number before the one 144 hits, with the rest into SpA), which always survived Milo's surf after SR + one turn of lefties. It works a bit better because, with Leftovers, Ninetales sometimes fails to 2hko Calm Milotic with your spread. I'd also mention Pain Split in AC.

I'm not even sure if the primary spread should be there, actually, just because Passho Houndoom actually does that a lot better (the higher SpA means Dark Pulse is hitting nearly as hard as Energy Ball) while the bulkier spread for Ninetales doesn't immediately die to Arcanine's Extremespeed, unlike Houndoom.

But either way, Ninetales' analysis does need an update. I'll wait for my changes to be implemented and some more QC input before I approve this :)

Edit: BulkyCM was very metagame-specific, I don't see it being viable any longer unfortunately. It does make a fantastic switchin to Venusaur though.

Ninetales does need an update, I will agree to that. I'm still doubting this set, but I'll test it out. I'm doing the second EV spread, though. Be warned that it might take me a while to test this out, as I usually have horrible luck testing out new sets. I do have a team that needs a bulkier Fire-type, so I'll use this set. If I find differently, I'll support this set. I've been wrong before...

EDIT: I did about three battles with it, and here's my report: In one of them, it did okay...and hax cut its life short in the other two. I'm a little more convinced, but not completely. I would do more battles, but I'm really tired, and I have to sleep. It did add more bulk to my team, though, as it replaced Houndoom, who isn't that bulky.

Max speed is absolutely useless with HP Rock because it drops your speed. I recommend running 220 speed EV's.

Ok so I tested this, and it was very similar to the previous ninetales set I tested (bulky CM) but it didn't have the needed boost from Calm Mind to make it worthwhile and beat Milotic. I didn't find one moment where I didn't miss Life Orb or even Calm Mind + Pain Split. This set is just not as good as the Life Orb variant, either a slash or OC in my opinion.

I've battled some more, and I'm going to have to agree with Heysup. It didn't really do well in battles, and it still got killed pretty easily. I did kill Milo with this, though, which I liked. Unfortunately, I still think it's a bit outclassed by the Special Sweeper, but the EV spread should be mentioned in Ninetales' analysis.
Speaking of which, Ninetales really needs to be updated.

How is it outclassed? The special sweeper loses to Milotic. This doesn't. Milotic is the most popular Pokemon in the tier. This can beat Milotic and, unlike BulkyCM, actually poses an offensive threat without boosting (although obviously it doesn't have the other merits of BulkyCM, like being able to avoid the 2hko from Arcanine). I understand if it might have been "underwhelming", but I have used Ninetales a lot in actual, serious teams, and I know that this set is viable.

I'm going to go open up my team on shoddy when I get the chance and tell you the EV spread I used; I don't remember how I arrived at it, but I do remember that I considered a lot of factors before doing so. Once the OP is updated with that spread and some of the other comments I will be making, I will stamp this.

I actually always used Lefties on my NP Ninetales. Was there any other option (don't tell me people use LO <___<)?

Ok I'll give this another shot? I know Thund and Flare are better / more experienced ninetales users, so I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and give this set another test.

One thing though, is there a legitimate reason why this set couldn't be slashed with LO? I mean, the set needs a major update, and it would make sense to be Leftovers / Life Orb.

Thund91 said:

I actually always used Lefties on my NP Ninetales. Was there any other option (don't tell me people use LO <___<)?

Click to expand...

Why not use LO?? Without it, you're only doing 46.19% - 54.82% to 252/56 Calm Milotic with a +2 Energy Ball (Assuming 4/252/252), while at +4, you're doing 69.04% - 81.73%, so if you for some reason can't get SR up, you have a very, very slim chance of 2HKOing. Milotic has a guaranteed 2HKO against Ninetales (71.08% - 84.32%) with 0 SpA Surf. At least with LO, you will be able to 2HKO Milotic before it 2HKOs you.

SR + lefties = 81%?
So instead of OHKOing you it's (usually) 2HKOing with lefties > LO.
2 hits with lefties is better than one hit with LO?

panamaxis said:

SR + lefties = 81%?
So instead of OHKOing you it's (usually) 2HKOing with lefties > LO.
2 hits with lefties is better than one hit with LO?

Click to expand...

This, basically. With Leftovers you actually have a chance to beat Milotic instead of just getting one hit off with LO and than dying.

I always run my Ninetales with Hypnosis though so I usually just manage to sleep Milotic as she switches in.... (yes that move loves me).

Anyway I don't see why we can't just include the item choices on any Nasty Plot set as Leftovers / Life Orb and describe their uses in AC.....

Thund91 said:

Anyway I don't see why we can't just include the item choices on any Nasty Plot set as Leftovers / Life Orb and describe their uses in AC.....

Click to expand...

I agree.

Can the OP be changed to reflect this? It can be Leftovers / Life Orb and the same moveslots you have listed. Keep hypnosis in AC...

Okay. This is the set I used. I believe this EV spread should be the primary option.

Ninetales @ Leftovers
72 HP/216 SpA/220 Spe
Timid

-Nasty Plot
-Fire Blast
-Energy Ball
-HP Rock/Pain Split

HP Evs hit lefties number. Enough speed to outrun +95s with HP Rock taken into account. Rest into SpA.

Advantages over not having HP investment: The biggest one is always surviving Milotic's surf after SR and one turn of lefties, which the current one only pulls off...70% of the time or so. You also avoid the 2hko from Morning Glory Arcanine's LO Extremespeed a lot more often.

Advantages over current bulky spread: Always 2hkos Bold Milotic. Frequently 2hkos Calm Milotic. Bulky spread does not achieve either of these; in fact, it doesn't 2hko 252/56+ Milotic without Life Orb (which...should not be used on the bulky spread).

Basically I think this is the best mix of power and bulk.

Assuming this spread is implemented, or the OP gives sufficient reason for the current spread to stay...

Bump. Xia is doing a Ninetales update, but his main set is 252/252 with Hypnosis having the first slash over HP Rock, and Life Orb ahead of Leftovers. Needs one more approval.

you only need 68 hp to hit a leftovers number. 72 hp hits a leftovers number +1, which allows you to make extra substitutes. that's not needed here, so the spread should be 68 hp / 220 satk / 220 speed. i don't think the second spread is necessary at all.

i thought this was already the ninetales set on-site, lol...

Whoostle, if you leave it with 68 HP you get an HP value divisible by 4, which results in greater Stealth Rock damage....I think.

well, yes and no...

if you imagine "series" of four different hp values like 100, 101, 102, 103 so that the first is divisible by 4 and the last is just 1 smaller than the next number divisible by 4, the ratio of sr damage / total hp is obviously greatest for the value where hp (mod 4) = 0 (the first one). so the first instinct is to just drop hp by 1 point and to lower SR by 1 (aka, get to a point where hp (mod 4) = 3). in all cases, that lowers your max hp by 1, but that's usually ok because you are relatively increasing hp by 1 every time you switch into sr cause you take less damage -- you're breaking even after 1 switch and coming out on top after 2 switches. but with 68 hp evs, not only is hp (mod 4) = 0, hp (mod 16) = 0 as well -- this means if you drop hp by 1, you're decreasing sr damage by 1, but you're also decreasing leftovers recovery by 1. usually a pokemon stays in more often than it switches in (esp if it's nasty plotting) -- or at the very least equal -- making dropping hp by 1 a bad idea.

on the other hand we can invest 4 more evs, to get to a leftovers number +1. overall hp is greater, but obviously that comes with an opportunity cost of 4 evs you couldn't put in special attack. this increase in 4 evs from 68 to 72 doesn't make you take less from sr, and it doesn't let you increase leftovers recovery, so the marginal benefit << marginal cost (mr. flare "econ" blitz). on the other hand, increasing from 64 to 68 results in a big marginal benefit because while it means you take more sr damage, you also gain more from leftovers which makes marginal benefit >> marginal cost. which means at 68, mr = mc... i think...

LONG STORY SHORT i'm pretty sure 68 hp evs is optimal.

by the way, other people have expressed interest in writing a ninetales update, so if you don't plan on finishing this it's ok -- just let us know. i'm only mentioning this because you haven't updated your OP in a week, so if you're still planning on doing this that's cool too.

EonADS has taken this over here. Thanks for the set AoS and good luck where-ever on God's green Earth you are.

Moving.