Salamence Theorymonning

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For a start, why is there to be a new suspect ladder without Salamence? This raises two primary concerns to me. For one, I cannot see why a metagame without Salamence has relevance to Salamence's tiering. It might raise bias as to people prefering a certain metagame to another, but what does it prove? Salamence's effect on the metagame is visible in Standard, a tier without the suspect seems pointless.
On the contrary, I do not see how you can ever be remotely certain what effect a Pokemon has on the metagame unless you see what the metagame is like without it. And the fact that opinions on Salamence do vary is evidence that its effect on the metagame is not unambigiously visible in standard.
When considering tiering, we speak of Uber characteristics and Pokemon being "too powerful". But ultimately, I believe the question to ask is whether OU is better with Salamence or without.

Also, is there a reason why applications aren't taking place now? Four weeks is hardly enough time to make a person qualified for the council who wouldn't have been before.
Maybe the idea is also that the ladder creates an "effort requirement". By putting in time playing on the Suspect Ladder, a player demonstrates that they are willing to commit to suspect testing and invest time and effort into it. I would expect that when Aeolus and Jumpman consider who will be in the council, they will wish to choose people who will be able to engage well in it. The council is not intended to merely be the top 9 on the OU leaderboard.

But it's probably better if Aeolus himself answers these issues, since he can do so far better than I can.
 
When considering tiering, we speak of Uber characteristics and Pokemon being "too powerful". But ultimately, I believe the question to ask is whether OU is better with Salamence or without.
While I too agree that this is the question we should ask, it is not the question we are asked to ask. We have definitions of an uber Pokemon; our favourite metagame, with or without it, is not relevant as to whether Salamence fits any of the three Uber characteristics we are given. To do this, I can't see why we don't use the Pokemon in question.
 
Aeolus said:
We will be asking for information relating to your rating and deviation on both the suspect and standard ladders in addition to inquiring about any recent and relevant tournament success/participation.
 
Ugh. My favorite teams to run are hail teams. Why must you threaten to take away all of my popular Dragon targets?

I'm also a bit dismayed that some people still seem to be hung up on the idea that every Pokemon should have a single perfect counter in order to be legal in OU. Hopefully by 5th gen it should become apparent that there are too many sufficiently diverse Pokemon for that mindset to be feasible any longer.
 

cim

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I'm also a bit dismayed that some people still seem to be hung up on the idea that every Pokemon should have a single perfect counter in order to be legal in OU. Hopefully by 5th gen it should become apparent that there are too many sufficiently diverse Pokemon for that mindset to be feasible any longer.
People still think this? I doubt any of the voter pool will be making decisions based on such logic.
 
Perhaps the term Uber needs to be redefined. This thread http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43566 does a very good job of it, but I believe we are going to have to do it again. If we are to have a truly fluid Metagame we need to have a common consensus on what is and what is not Uber. Latias is just an example of what is not a complete agreement on "Uber-ness". Salamence will be another regardless, but if we can have a reason why then we can at least have an understanding of what is going on.
 

SJCrew

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Then it's just better to use Dragonite, who takes hits a lot better to keep DDing the hell out.

So, do not use Roost on Salamence. Just use Fire Blast or whatever.
lol no, Dragonite is not fast enough to do what Mence does and doesn't have Intimidate to scare off physical attackers. Since Mence forces switches all day, there's no detriment at all to using a turn to recover some of that SR/LO damage. Draggy wishes it could be as threatening, but that lower speed and lack of Intimidate makes it a lot easier to prey on.
 

Cyrrona

starlet
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I'm admittedly a bit disappointed with the 3-5 results, but the majority has spoken and it's time to accept that and move on. Regardless of the outcome, I'm glad I got to be a part of that testing process.

Anyways, with all the controversy Salamence has sparked lately, it's good to see us finally giving it a legitimate suspect test. Definitely looking forward to participating in that and seeing what a Mence-less metagame plays like. (I know a handful of you guys toyed around with this in FUK DRAGON, but tournament-shy users like me haven't experienced it yet!)

I also think the new "Suspect Council" system is a step in the right direction. It looks like it'll strike a nice balance between accuracy and efficiency and save everyone involved in the production of these tests a great deal of time, so I'm all for it. Hopefully it'll all go smoothly!
 
The whole Salamence- has - roost argument is preposterous.
How many people on here have actually faced one that actually uses Roost? And if they do have it then one of their moveslots is taken up. Bulky Mence is often novelty rather than the "Overpowered beast" everyone on this thread is talking about.
In my opinion, Roost shouldn't be used as an example of why Salamence is better than something else.
Why is it bad to switch earthquake for roost? the only thing you lose coverage on is heatran. He still takes a lot from draco meteor (enough to be 2hkoed with rocks and one spike iirc) and you could just run a vaporeon. Hell, vaporeon provides wish support, and if your lucky you can get a free switch on a grass knot

Sending Salamence to UBERS won't do anything. Everybody will replace him with Gyarados.
No they won't. Play the ladder for yourself when it comes, but they won't. They play differently. Gyraods serves as an early game scout and weakener. Salamence is more of a sweeper. More power but less chences to setup. Besides, can gyra abuse a base 110 sp.att stat to kill stall. Nope.
 

SJCrew

Believer, going on a journey...
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Gyarados has different typing, not even a tenth of the versatility Mence does, and no kind of haymaker to get past its counters, so I wouldn't say it's be used as a replacement, per se. Really, I'd see that more as an opening for Lucario, since I've found Salamence to be one of the most consistent obstacles to its sweep. Booting one more out of the way just makes it even more difficult to stop.
 

FlareBlitz

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And when Gyarados gets a physical STAB over base 85 and a nearly-unresisted base 140 special STAB attack and an actual SATK to use it with, that will be relevant.
 
This is completely idiotic in many respects.

First, running a Suspect without Salamence biases the voters immediately. They'll build teams that don't have to check Mence and get used to them. Once accustomed to a metagame without Mence, they'll look back and say, "dang, my team would get run over by Mence."

Also, 9 is a puny sample size. You can't say anything effective with nine bits of data. They hardly would represent the entire competitive community.

The list goes on: whoever gets to select the voters adds additional biases into the pool. This is exacerbated by the fact that there are only 9 fricking voters!

Last thing: the competitive community is becoming a bunch of whiny bitches. "This is so broken, that is so uber!" What are we?! A WoW forum?? Since when do pokemon have 100% counters to anything??

Gliscor in sandstorm has no 100% counters because it could dodge every singe attack thrown at it and 2HKO machamp on the switch with LO Aerial Ace then! You make your best decisions and roll with them (and that sometimes means you lose a Poke). Pokemon is not meant to be a stallfest. GameFreak gave us LO this generation because it didn't like stallfests. People whine about not having any good switches into Mence. There are loads of pokemon that could defeat their counters if they use the right move. And everyone forgets that Mence can only switch in itself a few times per battle with SR, Sandstorm, and LO going against it.
 
A message to Mence haters: Salamence. Does. Not. Break. Stall. Unless. It. Is. Bad. Stall. (kinda like sprinkles but worse, much worse stall that is)

Honestly if you let your stall team get run over by Mence or any other one pokemon what is the point of running the stall team? Might as well call it a bad team and revamp it.

Good stall teams are able to stall and threaten every single pokemon in the tier. Without that, a stall team is bad.

Now some certain flamestar is going to probably blast back and say "but Mence beats all stall teams." May I point his direction to the master of stall, sir azelf. This guy has tromped the Smogon ladder using a stall team that works extremely well, including against any and all forms of Salamence. He's living proof that Salamence can be beaten in common OU play. Imperfectluck, another example of a battler that can beat out Mence. Practically anybody can beat Salamence if they can use their team and its strategy well. Maybe if everyone started playing better OU would be a better place and not a tier where you can ban a Pokemon if your team just sucks.

If you can't beat Salamence,

Originially said by Aeroblacktyl

Maybe you're just bad.
 
If you asked me before Platinum if Salamence was Uber I'd have probably laughed at you. After it got Outrage, I'm not so certain.

Before Pt, Salamence was already a risky proposition to deal with, but with Outrage, most of it's old counters are invalidaded. Here's some calcs from 2 of it's previous counters: Milotic and Vaporeon.

+1 Dragon Claw from Naughty Max Attack DDmence- 66.8% - 78.5%
Draco Meteor from Max Sp. Attack Mixmence- 64.7% - 76.6%

Meanwhile, Milotic's Ice Beam is an OHKO.

When Salamence got Outrage- Milotic winds up thusly:

+1 Outrage from Max Attack DDMence: 90.8% - 107.1% A clean OHKO with SR on the field, or any prior damage for that matter.

Now let's look at Vaporeon:

+1 Dragon Claw from Max Attack DDMence- 62.9% - 74.3%
Draco Meteor from Mixmence- 61.6% - 72.5%

Vaporeon Ice Beam is an OHKO.

After Outrage:

+1 Outrage- 94.4% - 111.2%: A guaranteed OHKO after SR.

Suddenly two of it's counters are now worthless to stop it. This, coupled with Latias' unbanning and Scizor's BP led to a rise of Steels, designed to kill Salamence while it's locked into Outrage, while still being able to survive a Draco Meteor. However, no Steels can guarantee beating Salamence, Especially if it carries Outrage/Earthquake/Fire Blast/Dragon Dance.

What happens if Salamence is banned? For one, Steel usage will not decrease. Scizor is far too common and as Dragonite would become a premier offensive threat in Salamence's place, people will still use Steels because Milotic and Vaporeon still can't take Outrages from DDNite. Additionaly, Kingdra and CB Flygon would probably see an increase in usage.

Theorymon aside, I personally question the decision to test Salamence right now of all times when Gen V may literally be just around the corner. I would personally leave it as is, because we may just get the Salamence counter we've been waiting for next gen. If it doesn't come, Or Mence gets some ridiculous move then I could see it being tested or outright banned.
 
Last thing: the competitive community is becoming a bunch of whiny bitches. "This is so broken, that is so uber!" What are we?! A WoW forum?? Since when do pokemon have 100% counters to anything?
Its not about him not having counters. Its about him forcing you to sacrifice a poke just to find out witch set is running. Mence has 2 equally effective sets that have 2 different sets of counters. No other poke in ou can claim that (except dragonite but hes slow). If you switch hippowdon into a draco meteor thinking its a dd mence, you are screwed. If you switch blissey in to a dd mence you are screwed. Doing ANYTHING against a salamence is a huge gamble, and often turns into a guessing game. Not good for the metagame IMO.
 
Great... When i'm about to start ev training my naive Bagon into a MixMence, I hear that its going to be inspected for being uber... Awesome day...
 
A message to Mence haters: Salamence. Does. Not. Break. Stall. Unless. It. Is. Bad. Stall. (kinda like sprinkles but worse, much worse stall that is)

Honestly if you let your stall team get run over by Mence or any other one pokemon what is the point of running the stall team? Might as well call it a bad team and revamp it.

Good stall teams are able to stall and threaten every single pokemon in the tier. Without that, a stall team is bad.

Now some certain flamestar is going to probably blast back and say "but Mence beats all stall teams." May I point his direction to the master of stall, sir azelf. This guy has tromped the Smogon ladder using a stall team that works extremely well, including against any and all forms of Salamence. He's living proof that Salamence can be beaten in common OU play. Imperfectluck, another example of a battler that can beat out Mence. Practically anybody can beat Salamence if they can use their team and its strategy well. Maybe if everyone started playing better OU would be a better place and not a tier where you can ban a Pokemon if your team just sucks.

If you can't beat Salamence,
The only way stall could beat mence is by perfect prediction to bait an outrage and go to skarm, who can't do anything back. They can't fight back if it has roost. 1 mispredict, and they lose a member. If stall loses 1 member, it practically loses the game. And mence can just roost cause stall doesn't threaten it.
 
Great... When i'm about to start ev training my naive Bagon into a MixMence, I hear that its going to be inspected for being uber... Awesome day...
._. It might not be uber if thats any consolation!


I really wasn't a "Mence is Uber" person until recently. I realized it has no reliable counters. Bronzong can't switch in, because it get 2HKO'd by Fire Blast (OHKO'd by EQ if its Heatproof Zong). SP.Def Skarm is 2HKO'd by Outrage. Standark Skarm is killed by Fire Blast. Heatran meets EQ. Metagross and Magnezone meat the same doom as does Tyranitar. Cress is actually its only true counter, but, lets be honest, Cress fell to UU for a reason. As user Kalinnikov, before Plat "lolno" Dragon Claw wasn't enough. Post Plat, "lol outrage, we troll" (that was me quoting GameFreak btw). A STAB Base 120 Power attack coming from a base 135 attack stat is just too overwhelming.

I'm almost certain, that when a pokemon has no reliable switch ins, and can outpace a majority of the metagame with +1 its more or less broken, and should be tested.

My 2 cents.

Uberific said:
The only way stall could beat mence is by perfect prediction to bait an outrage and go to skarm, who can't do anything back. They can't fight back if it has roost. 1 mispredict, and they lose a member. If stall loses 1 member, it practically loses the game. And mence can just roost cause stall doesn't threaten it.
Just wanted to say, the bolded part isn't true. most stall teams can survive with 1 or even 2 members gone, as some members, perform the same role essentially. If you spin blocker dies though, then its "gg". Also, Skarm can WW it away, so it can do stuff to it.
 

TheValkyries

proudly reppin' 2 superbowl wins since DEFLATEGATE
If I may, I'm going to sum up most every pro-Salamence OU argument in this thread...

While Salamence is very threatening, if you're well prepared you can take him down.
I'd like to first point out that almost every single argument has mentioned "being prepared for it" or used the phrase "with the right team." Quite frankly that alone should be popping red flags off to how dangerous this thing truly is. In team building, you should always think goal first, threats second. But the way people are talking about this suddenly considerably more powerful Salamence, they are thinking Salamence first, Goal second, and Other threats third. This is simply not the way it should be. When a pokemon impacts the game so thoroughly, that you have to think about it as a threat WHILE you build your team, and not after, is simply a testament to how overpowered it is.

Hell, Latias had more tangible counters than Salamence does now, and with a beast like that unleashed on the metagame you are guaranteed to lose at least one pokemon in the process of "taking it down". Here's a likely scenario that may happen in the current metagame for Salamence...

Salamence's teammate goes down to a physical attacker. Salamence comes in and intimidates. With this physically bulkier set the intimidated attacker won't do enough to break the Sub that Mence just set up. Now Mence takes out the enemy, and waits for the Ice Shard (CB Weavile/Scarf Mamoswine). Ice Shard takes out your sub while in return you take out the revenge killer. Now you're at a weak 62% (Stealth Rock and Sub + Lefties recovery) with no sub. From there Starmie can come in and clean up with Ice Beam.


In this scenario you must sac two pokemon just to take it out. Well that's all well and good. But what if you switch to the Ice Shard user knowing a Sub will pop up. Well, herein lies the problem...

Salamence's teammate goes down to a physical attacker. Salamence comes in and intimidates. Cleverly the attacker is switched out to the Ice Shard abuser immediately thus saving it's life, while also minimizing the damage done. But instead of subbing up the Salamence uses Dragon Dance. This isn't good. Now you're forced to use Ice Shard, since Ice Punch isn't fast enough. Yache Berry weakens the effect of Ice Shard, Salamence only takes 67% damage. Salamence OHKO's with Flamethrower. Starmie goes in, is taken down by the faster Outrage. Outrage spam takes out more and more of your team until it's GG.


Well say you ran a Scarf Starmie to take out both possibilities...

Salamence switches out for Weavile while Scarf Starmie uses Ice Beam. weavile takes 30% Damage from Rocks and Beam. Checkmates the Starmie with Pursuit. With some wish support Salamence can come back out as he pleases.


Simply put, with the amount of variety that Salamence has, you have to predict perfectly to minimize damage. And by minimize damage I mean sac only one pokemon instead of 3. If you cannot see how overpowered that is, then you are sadly blind.


EDIT: Magnezone Says hi to Steel types that switch in to Outrage too.
 
It really annoys me when people say "but Skarm can't do anything to Mence" (to clarify when Mence is using Outrage)

Thats true apart from, ya know make the rest of your team suffer with Spikes, WW you away and do 42.6% - 50.2% with Brave Bird then Roost off the damage. >__>
 
As a player who only plays wifi, I don't really have to deal with many Salamence, much less the diversity of Mences it seems everyone on smogon does. I have to say I'm on the fence about it, as I don't have too much trouble with Mence, but at the same time I would like to see the diversity of new OU teams that his banning would bring.
 
lol no, Dragonite is not fast enough to do what Mence does and doesn't have Intimidate to scare off physical attackers. Since Mence forces switches all day, there's no detriment at all to using a turn to recover some of that SR/LO damage. Draggy wishes it could be as threatening, but that lower speed and lack of Intimidate makes it a lot easier to prey on.
If you say LO damage, then you must mean you're using a offensive Salamence with Dragon Claw (since Outrage and Roost is...)... so Salamence is better, even though i prefer Draco Meteor or Fire Blast on the last spot and Outrage over Dragon Claw.

I was refering to more bulky, conservative DD sets that abuses Roost to the max, and in that regard Dragonite is better.
 
If I may, I'm going to sum up most every pro-Salamence OU argument in this thread...

I'd like to first point out that almost every single argument has mentioned "being prepared for it" or used the phrase "with the right team." Quite frankly that alone should be popping red flags off to how dangerous this thing truly is. In team building, you should always think goal first, threats second. But the way people are talking about this suddenly considerably more powerful Salamence, they are thinking Salamence first, Goal second, and Other threats third. This is simply not the way it should be. When a pokemon impacts the game so thoroughly, that you have to think about it as a threat WHILE you build your team, and not after, is simply a testament to how overpowered it is..
Any sweeper or wallbreaker, if your team cannot handle it, will sweep you or cause substantial damage. If you neglect threats such as Salamence, Latias, Infernape, etc. then you shouldn't be able to beat everything.

I know no one will care, but I often build my teams around a certain Pokemon or two, rarely keeping threats in mind. I don't do poorly, however, I know I'm not a serious ladderer (haven't laddered in a long, long time) and my example doesn't mean much to anyone. Salamence has always been there and people, imo, are too lazy to just deal with it.

On another note, there is always the spiraling effect with banning Pokemon. Salamence and Latias would never have been considered broken in the Garchomp centralizied metagame, yet they were considered the most broken now. The same can be said for UU. Roserade wasn't broken until Shaymin and Crobat and the like were gone. Now people want to do away with Rain Dance or Moltres or Dugtrio (ive seen it) completely. People will never be satisifed. People hate things that annoy them. Sometimes bans are based completely around annoyance (Froslass). It's a game and these Pokemon are threats, people just don't want to adapt to them. They bat a blind eye and scream "broken". Nothing we (the "Salamence is OU!") people can do about it. meh
 
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