Assuming I can Vote yes?
EonX
Cos voting for yourself is BAD
EonX
Cos voting for yourself is BAD
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Counter This Pokemon [ginganinja vs TEMP V1]
- Thread starter Nix_Hex
- Start date
Pocket
Okay, for all of our sakes, I'm going to end this early. Let's tally up the votes, shall we?
ginganinja - 10
ClubbingSealCub - 3
Electrolyte - 1
Eonx - 1
Pocket - 1
Team 1's second member is....
Thundurus-T @ Life Orb
Trait: Volt Absorb
Evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
-Nasty Plot
-Thunderbolt / Thunder (this is keeping our options open for rain)
-Hidden Power Ice
-Focus Blast
The Current Line-ups are:
Team1: Meloetta / Thundurus-T
Team2: Celebi / Heatrab
Now, it's time to move on to Team 1's 3rd member! There are a number of ideas that were thrown around in the discussion leading up to Thundurus-T's voting, so since Team 1 is still up to bat, let's look further into those posts. Are we headed for weather or are we "not quite there yet?" Go ahead and post one set each including the Pokemon's name, sprite, item, nature, evs, ability, and moves. Keep slashes to a minimum (try not to have any unless it's a weather dependent move like Thunder). Thank you guys again for all the discussion leading up to 1,2 and I hope to see it again this round!
ginganinja - 10
ClubbingSealCub - 3
Electrolyte - 1
Eonx - 1
Pocket - 1
Team 1's second member is....
Thundurus-T @ Life Orb
Trait: Volt Absorb
Evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
-Nasty Plot
-Thunderbolt / Thunder (this is keeping our options open for rain)
-Hidden Power Ice
-Focus Blast
The Current Line-ups are:
Team1: Meloetta / Thundurus-T
Team2: Celebi / Heatrab
Now, it's time to move on to Team 1's 3rd member! There are a number of ideas that were thrown around in the discussion leading up to Thundurus-T's voting, so since Team 1 is still up to bat, let's look further into those posts. Are we headed for weather or are we "not quite there yet?" Go ahead and post one set each including the Pokemon's name, sprite, item, nature, evs, ability, and moves. Keep slashes to a minimum (try not to have any unless it's a weather dependent move like Thunder). Thank you guys again for all the discussion leading up to 1,2 and I hope to see it again this round!
I'm not sure if we can counter a Heatrab!
Anyway, it looks like Team 1 is leaning towards the offensive side while Team 2 is putting up a defensive core. I'd like to throw Espeon onto the table.
Espeon @ Light Clay
Trait: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Spe / 4 SpA
Timid Nature
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Psyshock
- Shadow Ball
Why this Espeon? Why not Deoxys-D? The answer is simple - Magic Bounce. With Magic Bounce, it can only be directly attacked, and by setting up Light Screen it puts both Heatran and Celebi practically at its mercy. It also has a usable Special Attack stat, allowing it to actually hurt Celebi and... well, maybe it can't actually hurt Heatran, but it can set up Light Screen and switch to Meloetta, who can almost 2HKO with Close Combat from Aria forme!
Anyway, it looks like Team 1 is leaning towards the offensive side while Team 2 is putting up a defensive core. I'd like to throw Espeon onto the table.
Espeon @ Light Clay
Trait: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Spe / 4 SpA
Timid Nature
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Psyshock
- Shadow Ball
Why this Espeon? Why not Deoxys-D? The answer is simple - Magic Bounce. With Magic Bounce, it can only be directly attacked, and by setting up Light Screen it puts both Heatran and Celebi practically at its mercy. It also has a usable Special Attack stat, allowing it to actually hurt Celebi and... well, maybe it can't actually hurt Heatran, but it can set up Light Screen and switch to Meloetta, who can almost 2HKO with Close Combat from Aria forme!
Xatu @ Light Clay
252 HP/252 Def/4 Spe
Impish
Magic bounce
- reflect
- light screen
- roost
- u-turn
Dual screener to go with the offensive lean of Team 1. Roost to keep it alive, U-Turn to maintain momentum. Both Espeon and Xatu work depending on which way we want to go with the team.
I think we can hold off on a Magic Bouncer right now; let team 2 pick a hazard-setter, then we can revisit a Bouncer/screener to counter their particular hazards.
I'm contemplating a physical booster to work alongside Thundurus to hammer through their team. DD Haxorus might be decent, but there's not really any particularly synergy with Meloetta or Heatran.
I'm contemplating a physical booster to work alongside Thundurus to hammer through their team. DD Haxorus might be decent, but there's not really any particularly synergy with Meloetta or Heatran.
I'm going to go ahead and say I think we're thinking in the wrong direction. Dual Screeners are all well and good but all it takes is one Pokemon with Brick Break on the opposing team and they're far less useful.
Besides, what I think we should be doing is thinking ahead - what counters Thundurus-T, and what can we counter those with?
Currently for Thunderus-T counters I'm thinking Gastrodon, Latias and Lanturn, (in fact, Lanturn is pretty good against rain in general) so I think what we should be aiming to do this attempting to counter or check anything that would normally counter Thundurus-T before Team 2 can choose it, whilst retaining good synergy with our other two team members and preferably keeping our options open.
If we can successfully check as many Thundurus-T counters as possible we put Team 2 on the back foot, as opposed to choosing defensive Pokemon like the Espeon and Xatu posted above me, which make it far easier to deal with our team.
Now I know this is a lot more difficult than before. To do this, we have to consider every possible counter for our Thundurus set, and come up with a Pokemon that at least checks as many of them as possible, as well as retaining Team synergy.
In doing this, we put Team 2 on the back foot and make it significantly harder for them to choose their next two Pokemon.
So what I propose is that we start by thinking "what counters Thundurus-T?" As I said before, the main ones I can think of right now are Gastrodon, Lanturn and Latias.
DISCLAIMER: On the other hand, we might just be doing Team 2's job for them.
Any others we can think of?
EDIT: I'm finding it difficult to find a reliable counter to all three of the Pokemon I listed. Interestingly, Specs Politoed is the best I've tried so far, but it has trouble against Lanturn. Anyway, I need to sleep so now more calcs for me tonight.
EDIT2: Quagsire may also be an option to counter Thundurus-T, as Nasty Plot doesn't matter, and Focus Blast does a max of 56% (just low enough to stall for PP or a miss), but Pokemon that counter Gastrodon will almost definitely counter Quagsire too.
EDIT3: List of (Potential) Thundurus-T counters
EDIT4: So my list idea kind of fell through because Nasty plot (which I forgot to take into account for some of the Pokemon). Latias is a clear threat, though. See ginganinja's post (a couple below) for options.
I still stand by the fact that the posts above me were thinking the wrong way, though.
Besides, what I think we should be doing is thinking ahead - what counters Thundurus-T, and what can we counter those with?
Currently for Thunderus-T counters I'm thinking Gastrodon, Latias and Lanturn, (in fact, Lanturn is pretty good against rain in general) so I think what we should be aiming to do this attempting to counter or check anything that would normally counter Thundurus-T before Team 2 can choose it, whilst retaining good synergy with our other two team members and preferably keeping our options open.
If we can successfully check as many Thundurus-T counters as possible we put Team 2 on the back foot, as opposed to choosing defensive Pokemon like the Espeon and Xatu posted above me, which make it far easier to deal with our team.
Now I know this is a lot more difficult than before. To do this, we have to consider every possible counter for our Thundurus set, and come up with a Pokemon that at least checks as many of them as possible, as well as retaining Team synergy.
In doing this, we put Team 2 on the back foot and make it significantly harder for them to choose their next two Pokemon.
So what I propose is that we start by thinking "what counters Thundurus-T?" As I said before, the main ones I can think of right now are Gastrodon, Lanturn and Latias.
DISCLAIMER: On the other hand, we might just be doing Team 2's job for them.
Any others we can think of?
EDIT: I'm finding it difficult to find a reliable counter to all three of the Pokemon I listed. Interestingly, Specs Politoed is the best I've tried so far, but it has trouble against Lanturn. Anyway, I need to sleep so now more calcs for me tonight.
EDIT2: Quagsire may also be an option to counter Thundurus-T, as Nasty Plot doesn't matter, and Focus Blast does a max of 56% (just low enough to stall for PP or a miss), but Pokemon that counter Gastrodon will almost definitely counter Quagsire too.
EDIT3: List of (Potential) Thundurus-T counters
SpD LanturnGastrodonboth Lanturn and Gastrodon are almost OHKO'd by +2 Focus Blast- Latias - +2 Gives Thundurus-T a chance to OHKO with HP Ice
SpD QuagsireCan't actually switch in. Woops!SpD Jirachi (courtesy of Ithilanor) - but has a chance of being 2HKO'd by ThunderNearly OHKO'd by +2 Focus Blast, chance to OHKO with +2 Thunder.
EDIT4: So my list idea kind of fell through because Nasty plot (which I forgot to take into account for some of the Pokemon). Latias is a clear threat, though. See ginganinja's post (a couple below) for options.
I still stand by the fact that the posts above me were thinking the wrong way, though.
SpD Jirachi does a decent job of it, I think.
So as what we can pick...hmm. Some variant of DDMence could be good, but it's easily revenged. There's also a bit of shared weakness between it and Thundurus-T. There's CBTar, but that fixes our weather into something suboptimal. Lucario's got good synergy type-wise with Thundurus; we could go with that. Something like:
Lucario @ Life Orb
Trait: Justified
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
-Swords Dance
-Close Combat
-Extremespeed
-Ice Punch
Going with Jolly to be able to outspeed and OHKO their Celebi at +2. Ice Punch over Crunch due to hitting dragons, Gliscor, and the Therians hard.
EDIT: Admittedly, Luke isn't a hard counter to any of the aforementioned mons, but he can at minimum punch substantial holes in them, possibly being able to set up on them depending on the context. Lucario gives us a strong offensive presence alongside Thundurus-T and Meloetta, which will put team 2 on the back foot.
So as what we can pick...hmm. Some variant of DDMence could be good, but it's easily revenged. There's also a bit of shared weakness between it and Thundurus-T. There's CBTar, but that fixes our weather into something suboptimal. Lucario's got good synergy type-wise with Thundurus; we could go with that. Something like:
Lucario @ Life Orb
Trait: Justified
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
-Swords Dance
-Close Combat
-Extremespeed
-Ice Punch
Going with Jolly to be able to outspeed and OHKO their Celebi at +2. Ice Punch over Crunch due to hitting dragons, Gliscor, and the Therians hard.
EDIT: Admittedly, Luke isn't a hard counter to any of the aforementioned mons, but he can at minimum punch substantial holes in them, possibly being able to set up on them depending on the context. Lucario gives us a strong offensive presence alongside Thundurus-T and Meloetta, which will put team 2 on the back foot.
Actually, if Thundurus-T gets a Nasty Plot boost, the above pokemon don't need much residual damage before they are KOed. There is no way in hell that we can counter all of those pokemon, so I prefer to find something that can handle Latias (as well as perhaps SDef Jirachi which can be a bit annoying). Ideally, Sub CM Jirachi looks like a fairly decent choice, and its difficult to switch into, when both Meloetta and Jirachi can spam Serene Grace Thunders (if we run rain). Team #2 might run Roar on Latias tho, which would be annoying although once it was pared, Thundurus-T could sweep with a NP boost. Basicially, steels such as Sub CM Jirachi / Genosect / Scizor are pretty decent options toward handling Latias, although I am open to other suggestions.
My worry about going with SubCM Rachi (and to some degree Genesect) is how much we'd be biasing our team to the special side of things, which I think would let team 2 pick a good special wall and be pretty happy handling us, using their other pick to regain momentum. I favor a diverse threat - something like the Luke I posted, or Scizor (either banded or SD) - that really puts team 2 on the back foot when trying to handle all our threats.
P.S. I'm currently recuperating from tooth removal and am on painkillers, so if I'm not entirely coherent, that's why. Just let me know and I'll try and articulate better.
EDIT: Hmm, if Latias is the biggest thread to Thundy, Ttar keeps coming to mind...but I don't think we want to go with sand. Scizor would probably be the obvious choice.
P.S. I'm currently recuperating from tooth removal and am on painkillers, so if I'm not entirely coherent, that's why. Just let me know and I'll try and articulate better.
EDIT: Hmm, if Latias is the biggest thread to Thundy, Ttar keeps coming to mind...but I don't think we want to go with sand. Scizor would probably be the obvious choice.
Sounds like a job for Scizor
Scizor @ Metal Coat
Trait: Technician
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SpA)
- U-turn
- Bullet Punch
- Swords Dance
- Superpower
specially-defensive Jirachi with Body Slam can't really touch Scizor. Latias and Jirachi are both momentum grabbers for Scizor as it U-turns to one of our offensive sweepers. It provides us with good revenge-killing capabilities with Bullet Punch and can sweep with SD late-game.
EDIT: Ithilanor, Superpower >> Roost if you want Scizor to actually do work.
Scizor @ Metal Coat
Trait: Technician
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spe
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SpA)
- U-turn
- Bullet Punch
- Swords Dance
- Superpower
specially-defensive Jirachi with Body Slam can't really touch Scizor. Latias and Jirachi are both momentum grabbers for Scizor as it U-turns to one of our offensive sweepers. It provides us with good revenge-killing capabilities with Bullet Punch and can sweep with SD late-game.
EDIT: Ithilanor, Superpower >> Roost if you want Scizor to actually do work.
I don't think SubCM Jirachi would be the best choice (assume it's the Water Pulse/Thunder one) because that would completely cement this team as a rain team. While it's always good to keep the option open to run rain, it's not exactly necessary at this point. It's definitely something to consider, but deciding on a rain team this early could be a bit problematic. The other team could pick an anti-rain mon such as Specs Kingdra. Besides, that set is completely shut down by Gastrodon.
EDIT: I'm gonna throw out my Mamoswine again. Keeping it adamant.
Mamoswine @ Life Orb
Thick Fat
4 HP/252 Attack/252 Spe
Adamant Nature
-Earthquake
-Ice Shard
-Icicle Crash
-Stone Edge/Superpower
So far the team has been more on the special side. Say hello to one of the most feared physical attackers in the BW2 metagame. With good prediction at the player's hands, Mamoswine bring a heavy amount of offensive pressure. Between it's two STABs, it hits a lot of things with neutral or SE hits off of it's massive 130 Attack stat. Of most of the counters listed for Thundurus, Mamoswine can OHKO some them and even revenge a few. It's very hard to will besides Skarm, but Icicle Crash's flinch rate even gives it a fleeting chance there.
EDIT: I'm gonna throw out my Mamoswine again. Keeping it adamant.
Mamoswine @ Life Orb
Thick Fat
4 HP/252 Attack/252 Spe
Adamant Nature
-Earthquake
-Ice Shard
-Icicle Crash
-Stone Edge/Superpower
So far the team has been more on the special side. Say hello to one of the most feared physical attackers in the BW2 metagame. With good prediction at the player's hands, Mamoswine bring a heavy amount of offensive pressure. Between it's two STABs, it hits a lot of things with neutral or SE hits off of it's massive 130 Attack stat. Of most of the counters listed for Thundurus, Mamoswine can OHKO some them and even revenge a few. It's very hard to will besides Skarm, but Icicle Crash's flinch rate even gives it a fleeting chance there.
Well, since slashes are allowed for weather-dependent moves, we can leave the option of Thunder + Water Pulse open with the alternative of Thunderbolt + Flash Cannon/Psyshock.
Fair point. I was originally thinking Psyshock on Jirachi just for this reason, letting it hit on both sides of the attacking spectrum. I do however, want to make the point that (by and large), special walls I don't forsee as a problem to this team as yet. Meloetta can go mixed, and has CC to murder them, Thundurus-T doesn't really care about special walls, it still nukes the shit outta them anyway, and Jirachi doesn't mind provided it uses Psyshock.
Right now, looking at Team #2, it struck me that they are slightly Pursuit weak (if they go Latias). This might be deliberate in order to encourage us to use Tyrantiar, however I think pokemon that use Pursuit such as CB Metagross / Heracross / Snorlax / Zoroark are all fairly cool options. Weavile, Sharpedo and Crawdaunt (rain only) look o.k as well.
EDIT
Don't like Scizor cos its getting zero momentium against Heatran and Celebi, and Latias could run HP Fire pretty easily to piss us off if we wanted.
I definitely like the plan of Rachi having Psyshock if we go with it. I'm not entirely convinced of Meloetta's ability to handle special walls, seems like it takes some good prediction on our part and bad prediction on the opponent's.
Bah! Thunder for the thunder god! Bolts for the bolt throne!
(yeah it actually is a decent point)
Awful post, you have been condemned to the depths of the hide tags.
I like the idea of using CB Metagross. It's a nice Bulky attacker, and has good synergy with Thundurus because it's weak to Ground. What's more, it's other weakness's (fire) damage is reduced if we go for a rain team.
Sharpedo also happens to have good synergy with Meloetta, easily removing ghosts (if running crunch). It also is a pretty good lure for Fighting, Bug, Electric and Grass type attacks... all of which Thundurus-T is immune or resists. It also makes a great revenge killer after one protect, without any need of a Choice Scarf.
However, it's made of paper and so isn't so great against Latias (it also can't quite OHKO and gets KO'd back by Dragon Pulse, probably.)
That said, I pretty much wanted to suggest Sharpedo since we started with Meloetta... basically because I use Sharpedo and Meloetta on my main OU team :)
So I think I will just go ahead and go with Sharpedo for the hell of it.
Sharpedo @ Life Orb
Trait: Speed Boost
EVs: 252Atk / 4Def / 252Spe
Adamant nature
-Waterfall
-Crunch
-Ice Fang
-Protect
This is literally just the set I use on my current OU team. Obviously, Pursuit has been mentioned but for me it's a question of changing Crunch, Ice Fang or Protect? (And maybe changing Ice Fang to Earthquake if not Pursuit.) Sharpedo is an excellent revenge killer and late-game sweeper. The trick is not to put him in any serious danger, because Sharpedo may as well be made of cheap plastic in terms of its defences.
Now I really need to sleep. Will catch up with this tomorrow and probably edit the set.
EDIT: I still maintain my reservations about early posting revenge killers and late-game sweepers, I just like Sharpedo, Okay?
EDIT2: @Pocket I don't think I've ever seen Metal Coat on a Scizor before. I don't even know what it does (besides make Scyther / Onix evolve...) care to elaborate?
@Ithilanor, the set is very much tailored to my OU team and I intend to change it tomorrow when I don't really, really need to try and get some sleep (I might even remove it and suggest something else because I'm an idiot basically, and also my general reservations against posting this sort of pokemon at this point and yeah. Probably Metagross)
EDIT4: I'm going to condemn my own Pokemon here and say that Sharpedo is too weak. Not enough attack to OHKO stuff it isn't super effective to (and even then it's iffy) and it's made of papier mache. I'll find something better and then condemn this to the hide tags
Sharpedo also happens to have good synergy with Meloetta, easily removing ghosts (if running crunch). It also is a pretty good lure for Fighting, Bug, Electric and Grass type attacks... all of which Thundurus-T is immune or resists. It also makes a great revenge killer after one protect, without any need of a Choice Scarf.
However, it's made of paper and so isn't so great against Latias (it also can't quite OHKO and gets KO'd back by Dragon Pulse, probably.)
That said, I pretty much wanted to suggest Sharpedo since we started with Meloetta... basically because I use Sharpedo and Meloetta on my main OU team :)
So I think I will just go ahead and go with Sharpedo for the hell of it.
Sharpedo @ Life Orb
Trait: Speed Boost
EVs: 252Atk / 4Def / 252Spe
Adamant nature
-Waterfall
-Crunch
-Ice Fang
-Protect
This is literally just the set I use on my current OU team. Obviously, Pursuit has been mentioned but for me it's a question of changing Crunch, Ice Fang or Protect? (And maybe changing Ice Fang to Earthquake if not Pursuit.) Sharpedo is an excellent revenge killer and late-game sweeper. The trick is not to put him in any serious danger, because Sharpedo may as well be made of cheap plastic in terms of its defences.
Now I really need to sleep. Will catch up with this tomorrow and probably edit the set.
EDIT: I still maintain my reservations about early posting revenge killers and late-game sweepers, I just like Sharpedo, Okay?
EDIT2: @Pocket I don't think I've ever seen Metal Coat on a Scizor before. I don't even know what it does (besides make Scyther / Onix evolve...) care to elaborate?
@Ithilanor, the set is very much tailored to my OU team and I intend to change it tomorrow when I don't really, really need to try and get some sleep (I might even remove it and suggest something else because I'm an idiot basically, and also my general reservations against posting this sort of pokemon at this point and yeah. Probably Metagross)
EDIT4: I'm going to condemn my own Pokemon here and say that Sharpedo is too weak. Not enough attack to OHKO stuff it isn't super effective to (and even then it's iffy) and it's made of papier mache. I'll find something better and then condemn this to the hide tags