Little Bit Unexpected

[Doctor Who?]

hey, I have a new team to try out during my school holidays, it's sort of a special variant of a standard Hyper Offensive team, and it's been doing pretty well for me at the moment, but a few hax losses have come, and I'm heading back down from the top 50 I was in last night. I guess I can't really blame anyone, since using moves like Hydro Pump and Focus Blast is pretty much asking for it, but it still hurts :/

Anyways, it's a special hyper offence team, which means it has a few problems with Blissey, Tyranitar and Scizor but I have a few clever ways to get rid of those guys. Also note that I haven't actually played a team this offensively before, so I'm a bit new to playing teams like this.

I guess I should get started:

Azelf @ Focus Sash
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
- Stealth Rock
- Psychic
- Flamethrower
- Explosion

Azelf is the new lead, taking Starmie's spot, with Eggbert's help, since dual screens, I didn't find, were necessary for any sweep, I was fast and powerful enough already to take the opponent down without having to resort to set up or bulk. It's really such a standard set I'm using, but the combined facts that it is reliable, getting Stealth Rocks up every game, which is really important, mostly for Empoleon, it can prevent the set up of heaps of sweepers with Explosion, and the ones it doesn't hit are brought down by Jolteon or Infernape's Mach Punch, and the final thing which I thought made Azelf stand out was its ground immunity. Even though it probably won't be hanging around until the late game, it can definitely help if it gets there, because Flygon by then has a chance to destroy my team. Contrary to how I play the rest of the team, I tend to have a go at predicting what my opponent will do. If it's a lead which is likely to Uturn I will go for the Flamethrower to catch a Scizor. Just as long as I get rocks up, I don't care what Azelf does tbh. Another plus of having Azelf is that it is a great lead against stall and prevents the early game spikes they might try to set with a Flamethrower, which I already mentioned my team hates. Also if Azelf is around late game it can bait Pursuits which are then easy switchins for Empoleon, Heatran and Infernape.

Heatran (M) @ Passho Berry
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Hasty Nature (+Spd, -Def)
- Magma Storm
- Hidden Power [Electric]
- Explosion
- Taunt

Interesting set, interesting set, it's here as a bulky water and Blissey lure and it is oh so good at checking Starmie as well, which is just an all round fuck to my team. I honestly never found myself using Earth Power in the game and I can't take on other Heatran anyway so it was replaced with Taunt, so that I can minimize the prediction that Blissey might Protect on my explosion. Hidden Power and the Magma Storm>taunt>Explosion combo I use against Blissey absolutely dismantles the common special stops to my sweepers, and paves the way for a sweep with just about any pokemon on my team. Magma Storm can be annoying if it misses but that honestly hasn't happened as much as I thought it would, and I don't want to be one of those people who constantly complains that Focus Blast/Magma Storm/Hypnosis constantly misses for them, since those moves only have 70 accuracy after all. The chance of it hitting twice is literally nearly hax :/ I am thinking of running a few less speed evs, since I have no business against other Heatran, and it has an strange base speed stat (77 I am pretty sure?) so I could drop some speed into HP to take on Rotom and Zapdos a little better, as well as still outspeeding the next lowest speed stat.

Infernape (M) @ Life Orb
Trait: Blaze
EVs: 64 Atk / 252 SAtk / 192 Spd
Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
- Fire Blast
- Close Combat
- Grass Knot
- Mach Punch

This used to have Hidden Power Electric to surprise kill Gyarados on a stall team, but now Heatran has it, and he is more likely to make an appearance before Infernape. Now I have it replaced with Grass Knot to get rid of Swampert to help out Heatran and also Empoleon to an extent, since I have no super effective moves on his moveset. Also it can handle DDTar with its Mach Punch after a +1 and honestly DDTar can be the most troublesome sweeper since it can set up all day on Heatran or Jolteon. Infernape is basically my stop to the things that stop the team pretty much, and a great combatant against stall teams. I am seriously thinking about Lum Berry on this set, which might be funny to ge a guaranteed switch in on Blissey and scout its set. If it's Toxic than Heatran can just come in and keep bluffing Explosion, until they are convinced I don't have it then I boom. If it's Thunder Wave I have no idea what to do lol, cause a Jolteon switch is just retarded. it would also mean I don't have to take Life Orb damage anymore, but I don't know if the power loss would be substantial. Eh, it's only a thought, since I would only get the first switch in for free, after that it's fair game. Has pretty good offensive synergy with Heatran acting as a lure for Swampert and other bulky waters, so it can usually take a coupe of pokemon down with it.

Gengar (M) @ Life Orb
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 12 HP / 252 SAtk / 244 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Protect

And now we come to Gengar. I don't really know what my opinions on Gengar are tbh, sometimes it's great, others it really just lacks the ability to do anything. One thing I am sure of though is that Gengar definitely belongs on my team, being the only ground immunity as well comes with great responsibility for gengar to stay alive late game, I really hate Flygon late game, outspeeds my +2 Empoleon, so Gengar is really imo the only pokemon I have to save until the end. Other than that, yeah, amazing with Protect, scouts choice moves, it's really an amazing move to be able to know exactly what Flygon's gonna do and Scizor especially, the main reason Protect is here is to scout the move, Bullet Punch/Pursuit and then act accordingly, very useful, because its CB Bullet Punches late game are gonna hurt Jolteon and Infernape, even resisted. Unfortunately if you Protect they know your set nowadays and will just switch instead of using the same moves again, oh well. Also knowing what Tyranitars will do, and if they pursuit, free Empoleon set up is amazing.

Empoleon (M) @ Shuca Berry
Trait: Torrent
EVs: 12 HP / 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 240 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Agility
- Hydro Pump
- Grass Knot
- Ice Beam

This, I assumed would not be the best on the team, but god, have I been proven wrong. For starters I want everyone to give this a try, it's really amazing , especially if you can bait choiced pursuits like Starmie, Gengar, and Jolteon to an extent can. It will just set up the Agility, and then away it goes. The only things really stopping this after an Agility are Mach Punch Infernape, Gyarados which still has heaps of hp as well a EQ, Scarfed Rotom and Scarf Flygon, and honestly, except for Scarfgon, they are fairly easily handled by the rest of the team. Empoleon is amazingly powerful as well, and once it's Life Orb brings it down to Torrent mode, Hydro Pump shreds everything. I had a go with Surf and it just was not powerful enough at all, even neutral hits with Hydro Pump are beastly. While I don't think I will replace this, I am in actual fact open for replacements on everything on this team, although imo Empoleon has earned a permanent spot on the team. Shuca Berry mean I am no longer revenged by Flygon, a constant annoyance to the team.

Jolteon (M) @ Life Orb
Trait: Volt Absorb
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Shadow Ball
- Substitute

Jolteon is an amazing pokemon once TTar and Blissey have gone down, and I am convinced it's definitely capable of sweeps. The main problem I've had with it is the fourth slot, which I was just about to give away to Charge Beam but in the battle before I posted this, it came in really handy, so I have no idea what to do :'( I honestly think I am powerful enough to not need to boost with Charge Beam, but the occassional Jirachi has stopped my sweep, which is pretty sad, since it couldn't even really be called a check. Still, it might have its merits. I honestly haven't seen Gliscor at all, and Flygon can only be hit on the switch, so maybe Hidden Power [Fighting] is an option to help with Gengar's chances of a sweep? This has great synergy with the last three members of my team, what with Ground-type attacks going to Gengar, Dark- and Ghost- types from Gengar going to Empoleon, and Electric- type attacks giving Jolteon a free switch.


This team has actually been pretty amazing for me, and I would say that its main problem is definitely without a doubt Choice Scarfed Ground- type moves. Flygon obviously and Tyranitar late game will destroy me, maybe a good levitating lead to go over Starmie? Since synergy wise, Starmie contributes nothing at all, it's so replaceable really...

[ssbbm]

I really wouldn't run Protect on Gengar; it doesn't really beat Scizor like you said, and ScarfTar still beats you with Protect. You could try to run SubPunch Gar, or you could run Explosion Gar; Blissey (which walls your team except for Infernape and Heatran) is defeated by both these sets.

[Doctor Who?]

Originally Posted by Fat ssbbm

I really wouldn't run Protect on Gengar; it doesn't really beat Scizor like you said, and ScarfTar still beats you with Protect. You could try to run SubPunch Gar, or you could run Explosion Gar; Blissey (which walls your team except for Infernape and Heatran) is defeated by both these sets.

It does beat Scizor though... I Protect the first turn it's in, to see whether it uses Bullet Punch, or Pursuit, if it uses Pursuit then I Hidden Power Fire, because I outspeed, if it bullet Punches I will go to Heatran to set up Stealth Rocks, or, provided I've done that already, I will go to Empoleon for a free Agility as it switches out. With Scarftar, if it uses Crunch then I go to Empoleon for the Agility or if it Pursuits, yes I am gone but again, Empoleon shits on their team. But it does minimize prediction errors, and if I used Substitute then their Scizor could still eat me with Bullet Punch. I also haven't really made it clear, but it negates Skarmory and Forretress' free turn to set up a layer of spikes even, and my team hates Spikes. I'll give Explosion>Hidden Power Fire a go, with I guess Protect still in the set because I like the way it minimizes prediction errors, but the sub Focus Punch set is really a gimmick for only Blissey, and the lack of a Focus Blast miss on tar.

[ssbbm]

But wouldn't Sub/Focus Punch/HP Fire/ Shadow Ball still cover everything?

[Doctor Who?]

Originally Posted by Fat ssbbm

But wouldn't Sub/Focus Punch/HP Fire/ Shadow Ball still cover everything?

Alright, you win haha, but I really do love Protect to death :/

Btw, what are the calcs for a focus Punch on Blissey? I'm not sure what EV spread it would be running either

[BKC]

Hi, I got your message. The first thing I'd like you to try is Magma Storm > Fire Blast and HP Electric > Grass on Heatran. See, against stall teams, Heatran is usually going to come in before Infernape on something like Forretress because of its bulk+Stealth Rock access. This means Gyara will come in, and you have no way to touch it, meaning you're gonna switch - and Jolteon will have to take into hazards before getting Roared, and then you only have a 1/5th chance of your other Gyarados killer coming in. In short this means that things could really get messy before Ape finally knocks Gyara out, and by then your team will most likely be too weak to take on the other 5 members of a stall team. By using HP Electric on Tran, you basically force them to use their Blissey to counter it, meaning Exploding will be much easier, especially with Magma Storm - while its accuracy isn't the greatest, its trapping ability will give you the edge because it eliminates the Explosion guessing game, as you no longer have to worry about blowing up on a Rotom-A. Losing HP Grass isn't a big deal - for one, Swampert is very rare now. Two, now that the role of Gyara-killer has been assigned to Heatran, you can simply drop Infernape's HP Electric in favor of Grass Knot.

Right, so that fixes your problem with stall teams. However, as with all heavy offense teams, Scarf Flygon is very problematic. Most of the time, you will find it revenging your +2 Empoleon, so how about trying a Shuca Berry? This will allow you to tank its Earthquake while striking back with Ice Beam. You lose some power but with the rest of your team hitting so hard, this shouldn't be too much of a problem. Most of the time, a team that relies on ScarfGon to revenge Emp is extremely weak to it otherwise - this will get you many sweeps on its own. With these changes I think your team looks quite solid; this is a very nice spin on heavy offense, good luck.

[Doctor Who?]

Originally Posted by Fat Blazin Kickin Chicken

Hi, I got your message. The first thing I'd like you to try is Magma Storm > Fire Blast and HP Electric > Grass on Heatran. See, against stall teams, Heatran is usually going to come in before Infernape on something like Forretress because of its bulk+Stealth Rock access. This means Gyara will come in, and you have no way to touch it, meaning you're gonna switch - and Jolteon will have to take into hazards before getting Roared, and then you only have a 1/5th chance of your other Gyarados killer coming in. In short this means that things could really get messy before Ape finally knocks Gyara out, and by then your team will most likely be too weak to take on the other 5 members of a stall team. By using HP Electric on Tran, you basically force them to use their Blissey to counter it, meaning Exploding will be much easier, especially with Magma Storm - while its accuracy isn't the greatest, its trapping ability will give you the edge because it eliminates the Explosion guessing game, as you no longer have to worry about blowing up on a Rotom-A. Losing HP Grass isn't a big deal - for one, Swampert is very rare now. Two, now that the role of Gyara-killer has been assigned to Heatran, you can simply drop Infernape's HP Electric in favor of Grass Knot.

Thankyou very much for your rate, I appreciate it. I was definitely considering this before about the Hidden Power Electric on Heatran and the Grass Knot on Infernape. Whenever I usually run Infernape it is the same set I am running now with Grass Knot, tbh. The Magma Storm suggestion is very interesting though. If it hits, then I can get a free guaranteed kill on Blissey, but only as long as it doesn't have Protect. Speaking of which, does anyone have access to move statistics so I could test the probability that Blissey would have Protect? I'll certainly try it out for sure :)

Originally Posted by Fat Blazin Kickin Chicken

Right, so that fixes your problem with stall teams. However, as with all heavy offense teams, Scarf Flygon is very problematic. Most of the time, you will find it revenging your +2 Empoleon, so how about trying a Shuca Berry? This will allow you to tank its Earthquake while striking back with Ice Beam. You lose some power but with the rest of your team hitting so hard, this shouldn't be too much of a problem. Most of the time, a team that relies on ScarfGon to revenge Emp is extremely weak to it otherwise - this will get you many sweeps on its own. With these changes I think your team looks quite solid; this is a very nice spin on heavy offense, good luck.

This is definitely a useful suggestion, I've been destroyed by a Scarfgon Eqrthquaking late game twice now and in both situations I was up 4-1 or 5-1 when it happened. The loss in power I hope wouldn't be too much, since it is amazing atm, but at the same time I need to fix this weak before I go any further with the team -.- One benefit of LIfe Orb other than the power that I've noticed is that I can get into Torrent range easier as well, but Empoleon is fairly bulky tbh, so I should be able to survive Starmie Thunderbolts and the like if they survive. I will most probably end up implementing this even after I find a useful levitating lead :)

@ssbbm: Truthfully, I have been fairly unsure of the sub Focus Punch set you recommended :/ It had good uses, hitting Blissey for good damage, but getting the sub up and having no solid form of recovery sucked, so I will mess around with its set a little more, maybe going for a sub set with Explosion > Hidden Power Fire, then I will have insurance against Scizor switching in, with the sub taking the attacks it can throw at me. I might even just try standard Subsplit or a Hypnosis variant.

[Eggbert]

Special heavy offense doesn't really need screens. Your main goal is to eliminate Blissey, Snorlax, Tyranitar, special walls, ect so the remaining sweepers can have no problems. In order for you to do this with special attackers, you need lures and trappers, not screens. Screens are for physical teams that need to set up to break past their counters. Since nothing on your team except Emp sets up (who will be setting up late game likely where screens are gone) there is little point since screens don't make a difference to Bliss.

Anyways you do have really good offensive synergy, as Infernape can really do well in luring out scarftar and and Gyarados. As mentioned above, magma storm is an excellent idea for Heatran, but only with HP elec. Stall will likely go to gyara first, not Blissy, so you need to eliminate him as well. If you can magma the Bliss, you will likely win the game. Run taunt > Stealth rock for this purpose. Next, I'd run explosion on Gengar, with a set up Sub / Shadow Ball / Focus Blast / Explosion. This is another excellent way of eliminating Blissey and Snorlax, as everyone expects pain split. It is important that at least half of your team can beat Bliss. Mystic gar is kinda old and smart players will know bullet punch. You don't want to be switching Gengar around too much because it might give the other team a chance to set up, one turn is all it takes to sweep you. The next thing I would try is running Nasty plot ape. Focus blast can OHKO bliss after the boost and people will rarely expect that. V-wave can also take care of scarf tar while fire blast OHKOs most gyara and nite after SR. This is mainly a suggestion as focus blast will let you down when you need it, but the payoff is great. Also weakens scarfgon as really cause problems here. I don't see when you will have time to wish on Jolteon since it is so frail. Hp fight is excellent because you outspeed ttar. I haven't run calcs but a +1 LO hp fight might ohko it. Hp ice is useless for the most part since you do not want to waste time trying to predict a Flygon switch. If you ran sub > wish then it would be good.

The last thing you need now is a better lead. Starmie doesn't have the coverage or power it should have, and you need a more reliable SR (heatran probably won't have that much time honestly, and setting up stealth rock midgame is too risky as a dragonite or something can setup on you). I'd run a life orb azelf. Psychic / SR / (Explosion / Grass Knot) / Fire Blast. It is powerful enough to get several KOs early game, and it learns stealth rock. there are tons of other options, even stuff like endeavor infernape is excellent for weakening switches to 1%.

Changes:
- Seconding magma + hp elec
- taunt > SR on tran
- new lead over starmie
- Explosion gengar
- possible NP ape

[AB2]

Hey, this team looks like its on its way to being a really solid build, but as you stated it does have some problems. It seems like you have a lot of trouble breaking stall teams. Common stall cores will give you a lot of trouble, especially since you don't really have many team members to break them. As you stated, Flygon is going to give you some trouble. Some of the mixed Life Orb versions can be troublesome; however this team can't really even take hits from the scarf variant. At the moment, it seems like you could use a few pokemon to break down stall cores very easily, so that other members of this team can sweep after their counters have been removed. First of all, I'd recommend that you try out a different set for Life Orb Gengar. If you ran Shadow Ball | Thunderbolt | Explosion | Focus Blast, then Blissey would be easily lured in and KO'd. This leaves a potential sweep against teams with Jolteon or Heatran. As for your Flygon problem, I would suggest running Offensive Suicune over Empoleon. Offensive Suicune does amazingly under screens and can set up more then one calm mind with ease. Also, it can be a good buffer to pokemon such as Flygon and Tyranitar, especially with screen support. Also, offensive suicune does really well if Blissey or Snorlax have removed from the picture [which can be done easily if you decide to use LO Explosion Gengar and Heatrap]. Running max speed and special attack is necessary on Suicune, and having a moveset of Calm Mind | Hydro Pump | Ice Beam | Hidden Power [Electric] will work most effectively.

Next, I would definitely try a new lead over your Starmie. There are a few pokemon that screen in the beginning of the game much better than Starmie can. If you did not like leading with Azelf, I'd try to use Dual Screen Uxie over Starmie. Uxie is extremely bulky and can use U-turn to set up multiple sets of screens in the game. Also, it can pack stealth rocks which means that you can run a set of Magma Storm | Earth Power | Hidden Power [Electric] | Explosion on Heatran. Running an EV spread on Uxie with 252 HP | 40 Def | 216 Spe with a Jolly nature and Light Clay on Uxie will be most beneficial. This will allow Uxie to try and get screens over Gliscor and Metagross leads, while still keeping a whole lot of bulk. Finally, I would try Nasty Plot Mixape over your current version. Nasty Plot Ape can help you clean up later in the game and it can easily OHKO the most common forms of Tyranitar with boosted Vacuum Wave. This means that running a Nasty Plot Infernape with Nasty Plot | Fire Blast | Grass Knot | Vacuum Wave would be most beneficial if you want to have a late game cleaner after stall cores have been eliminated.

Good Luck!

[2sly4u]

Originally Posted by Fat Doctor Who?

@ssbbm: Truthfully, I have been fairly unsure of the sub Focus Punch set you recommended :/ It had good uses, hitting Blissey for good damage, but getting the sub up and having no solid form of recovery sucked, so I will mess around with its set a little more, maybe going for a sub set with Explosion > Hidden Power Fire, then I will have insurance against Scizor switching in, with the sub taking the attacks it can throw at me. I might even just try standard Subsplit or a Hypnosis variant.

I like the SubSplit variant for you. It still beats Scizor if you can get a Sub up, and most Blissey can't touch you (Though I think she can PP stall you, depending on the set)

As for your Flygon problem, why not use Dragonite? He requires some prediction to use since he's obviously weak to Dragon, but he can switch in for free on Earthquake and destroy with his powerful attacks. If worst comes to worst and Flygon predicts your D-Nite switch and picks Outrage, He's then easy revenge pickings for Empoleon, eliminating your team's greatest adversary. Dragonite also has great synergy with Empoleon/Jolteon, happily taking ground attacks while Empoleon can absorb Ice, Dragon, and Rock attacks. Here's my recommended set:

Dragonite@Life Orb
Dragon Claw/Outrage
Extremespeed
Fire Blast/Earthquake
Roost

First slot is standard STAB, Extremespeed is priority. Fire Blast/Earthquake handle Steel-types, but Fire Blast is recommended to nail Skarmory. Roost heals off Life Orb damage. If for whatever reason you use this in the lead slot, Aerial Ace can beat Machamp, but it really doesn't serve any other purpose.

Another option is Lead Gliscor. He doesn't fit as well with a hyper-offensive team, but he is a reliable Stealth Rock user (which frees up a slot on Heatran), can scout well with U-Turn, and can take handle almost anything Flygon can throw at him and Roost later.

[connor363]

This team is a decent mashup of offensive/defensive, but I believe your only two good defenders, Starmie and Heatran, are a little too balanced and you should invest in a good wall like the ever-common (But for a good reason) Blissey. Other than that, you're set!

[Doctor Who?]

Thankyou very much for the rates, all four of you gave some good ideas, and I will probably end up testing them all.

Originally Posted by Fat Eggbert

Special heavy offense doesn't really need screens. Your main goal is to eliminate Blissey, Snorlax, Tyranitar, special walls, ect so the remaining sweepers can have no problems. In order for you to do this with special attackers, you need lures and trappers, not screens. Screens are for physical teams that need to set up to break past their counters. Since nothing on your team except Emp sets up (who will be setting up late game likely where screens are gone) there is little point since screens don't make a difference to Bliss.

Okay, I think from watching the team play, I have noticed that the only thing screens really helps with is Starmie's chances of beating the lead it is facing off against (Machamp as no idea what hit it, when it can't 2hko me with Reflect up, while I can 2hko). The only other time I liked dual screens was when Shaymin couldn't break Gengar's sub with Seed Flare, which was awesome. So I guess I agree with you here. Thankyou for the advice in reference for future Hyper Offence, as I think I said, I'm pretty new to this playstyle.

Originally Posted by Fat Eggbert

Anyways you do have really good offensive synergy, as Infernape can really do well in luring out scarftar and and Gyarados. As mentioned above, magma storm is an excellent idea for Heatran, but only with HP elec. Stall will likely go to gyara first, not Blissy, so you need to eliminate him as well. If you can magma the Bliss, you will likely win the game. Run taunt > Stealth rock for this purpose. Next, I'd run explosion on Gengar, with a set up Sub / Shadow Ball / Focus Blast / Explosion. This is another excellent way of eliminating Blissey and Snorlax, as everyone expects pain split. It is important that at least half of your team can beat Bliss. Mystic gar is kinda old and smart players will know bullet punch. You don't want to be switching Gengar around too much because it might give the other team a chance to set up, one turn is all it takes to sweep you. The next thing I would try is running Nasty plot ape. Focus blast can OHKO bliss after the boost and people will rarely expect that. V-wave can also take care of scarf tar while fire blast OHKOs most gyara and nite after SR. This is mainly a suggestion as focus blast will let you down when you need it, but the payoff is great. Also weakens scarfgon as really cause problems here. I don't see when you will have time to wish on Jolteon since it is so frail. Hp fight is excellent because you outspeed ttar. I haven't run calcs but a +1 LO hp fight might ohko it. Hp ice is useless for the most part since you do not want to waste time trying to predict a Flygon switch. If you ran sub > wish then it would be good.

Hmm. The Heatran changes really seem very important to my ability to take down Blissey, since it's pretty much guaranteed after a Taunt and a Magma Storm. What I don't understand is why I need Explosion on Gengar after I have plotted out a Heatran strategy specifically to take down Blissey, which is pretty much guaranteed. Not to mention that, but also I need Gengar late game as a ground immunity, so I still don't get really why I should plan to sac it, when it usually comes out later than Heatran and in all probability Heatran has blown up Bliss. Wit Protect, even though you say that experience players Bullet Punch, I can have insurance that it's not trying a surprise Pursuit, and just go to Empoleon for the setup anyway. The Infernape set sounds sweet, if the Focus Blast ohkos after a Nasty Plot, then it would end up being pretty worth it, however I would probably need a physical move to do more damage than Blissey can recover at least, it is definitely worth a shot though, I can still bluff Close Combat up until I Nasty Plot. Yeah, Wish is useless tbh, Jolteon needs to hit its switch ins hard straight off the bat, and it doesn't make sense to wish up and let them bring in TTar for free, substitute sounds like a pretty swell option.

Originally Posted by Fat Eggbert

The last thing you need now is a better lead. Starmie doesn't have the coverage or power it should have, and you need a more reliable SR (heatran probably won't have that much time honestly, and setting up stealth rock midgame is too risky as a dragonite or something can setup on you). I'd run a life orb azelf. Psychic / SR / (Explosion / Grass Knot) / Fire Blast. It is powerful enough to get several KOs early game, and it learns stealth rock. there are tons of other options, even stuff like endeavor infernape is excellent for weakening switches to 1%.

Changes:
- Seconding magma + hp elec
- taunt > SR on tran
- new lead over starmie
- Explosion gengar
- possible NP ape

Um, I think that the standard Azelf set sounds like a fine option, being able to damage things pretty decently, and can I just ask? Why Fire Blast instead of Flamethrower? Wouldn't flamethrower be better for that insurance that Forretress won't even get one layer? I used an Azelf lead before with sr/flamethrower/hidden power ground/explosion, which was alright, didn't finish Heatran though, Psychic would be better to damage Rotoms trying to come into Explosion.

Thankyou Eggbert, many of those changes will probably be permanently implemented straight away.

Originally Posted by Fat AB2

Hey, this team looks like its on its way to being a really solid build, but as you stated it does have some problems. It seems like you have a lot of trouble breaking stall teams. Common stall cores will give you a lot of trouble, especially since you don't really have many team members to break them. As you stated, Flygon is going to give you some trouble. Some of the mixed Life Orb versions can be troublesome; however this team can't really even take hits from the scarf variant. At the moment, it seems like you could use a few pokemon to break down stall cores very easily, so that other members of this team can sweep after their counters have been removed. First of all, I'd recommend that you try out a different set for Life Orb Gengar. If you ran Shadow Ball | Thunderbolt | Explosion | Focus Blast, then Blissey would be easily lured in and KO'd. This leaves a potential sweep against teams with Jolteon or Heatran. As for your Flygon problem, I would suggest running Offensive Suicune over Empoleon. Offensive Suicune does amazingly under screens and can set up more then one calm mind with ease. Also, it can be a good buffer to pokemon such as Flygon and Tyranitar, especially with screen support. Also, offensive suicune does really well if Blissey or Snorlax have removed from the picture [which can be done easily if you decide to use LO Explosion Gengar and Heatrap]. Running max speed and special attack is necessary on Suicune, and having a moveset of Calm Mind | Hydro Pump | Ice Beam | Hidden Power [Electric] will work most effectively.

As I said, changing Gengar to a set which sacrifices currently the only ground immunity in the team would be fairly counterproductive, and I want to stick with Protect and Shadow Ball Focus Blast for the moment, but I'll definitely give it a fair test, Suicune I have used before, but under dual screens it seems like it would be beastly, so I'll give that a go, specifically with the Uxie you suggested or the Starmie I am using at the moment although I am definitely looking to replace that, whether it be Azelf or Uxie which takes the first spot.

Originally Posted by Fat AB2

Next, I would definitely try a new lead over your Starmie. There are a few pokemon that screen in the beginning of the game much better than Starmie can. If you did not like leading with Azelf, I'd try to use Dual Screen Uxie over Starmie. Uxie is extremely bulky and can use U-turn to set up multiple sets of screens in the game. Also, it can pack stealth rocks which means that you can run a set of Magma Storm | Earth Power | Hidden Power [Electric] | Explosion on Heatran. Running an EV spread on Uxie with 252 HP | 40 Def | 216 Spe with a Jolly nature and Light Clay on Uxie will be most beneficial. This will allow Uxie to try and get screens over Gliscor and Metagross leads, while still keeping a whole lot of bulk. Finally, I would try Nasty Plot Mixape over your current version. Nasty Plot Ape can help you clean up later in the game and it can easily OHKO the most common forms of Tyranitar with boosted Vacuum Wave. This means that running a Nasty Plot Infernape with Nasty Plot | Fire Blast | Grass Knot | Vacuum Wave would be most beneficial if you want to have a late game cleaner after stall cores have been eliminated.

Good Luck!

Thanks for the Uxie lead, I'll definitely give it a go if I plan on staying with the dual screens, although I might have to run Taunt on it, because my team is extremely Spikes weak, so giving Forretress and Skarmory leads a free rein for the first few turns would be something I'd have to figure out how to prevent. I'll also try your variant of NPApe when I try Eggbert's, I've already said it would be an awesome set.

Thanks for the compliments and the advice!

Originally Posted by Fat 2sly4u

I like the SubSplit variant for you. It still beats Scizor if you can get a Sub up, and most Blissey can't touch you (Though I think she can PP stall you, depending on the set)

As for your Flygon problem, why not use Dragonite? He requires some prediction to use since he's obviously weak to Dragon, but he can switch in for free on Earthquake and destroy with his powerful attacks. If worst comes to worst and Flygon predicts your D-Nite switch and picks Outrage, He's then easy revenge pickings for Empoleon, eliminating your team's greatest adversary. Dragonite also has great synergy with Empoleon/Jolteon, happily taking ground attacks while Empoleon can absorb Ice, Dragon, and Rock attacks. Here's my recommended set:

Dragonite@Life Orb
Dragon Claw/Outrage
Extremespeed
Fire Blast/Earthquake
Roost

First slot is standard STAB, Extremespeed is priority. Fire Blast/Earthquake handle Steel-types, but Fire Blast is recommended to nail Skarmory. Roost heals off Life Orb damage. If for whatever reason you use this in the lead slot, Aerial Ace can beat Machamp, but it really doesn't serve any other purpose.

Another option is Lead Gliscor. He doesn't fit as well with a hyper-offensive team, but he is a reliable Stealth Rock user (which frees up a slot on Heatran), can scout well with U-Turn, and can take handle almost anything Flygon can throw at him and Roost later.

Thanks for the rate!

If I was completely honest, the next best Gengar set after the one I am using nw would have to be the standard Pain Split, since it is able to give Blissey a fair few problems while not killing itself, something which I have already expressed my dislike of. It can't one shot Gengar, but it can still do a decent amount with Focus Blast, and the sub would take the hit as well, so it's definitely worth a shot. Also , it can heal itself, wich gives it a greater chance to be around late game to stop Flygon, so it is pretty efficient for the job I am giving it.

A Dragonite suggestion is not bad either, I assume you would want this to go over Infernape?? It would definitely fix a weakness to ScarfFlygon, but against the Life Orb set which is gaining popularity, it seems pretty worthless, whereas Infernape would do better. The main reason I considered Infernape though, was as a DDTar stop, since it is pretty easy for DDTar to set up on Heatran or Jolteon (although it is pretty likely I will keep Hidden Power Fighting instead of Ice for this very reason). What I am considering though, is using an Infernape with Endeavour in the lead position and Mach Punch as well as the Dragonite, which could be nice. It does the same rough role as Infernape did, hitting Blissey for a ohko, as well as not giving Skarmory and Forretress relatively free layers , like other good fighting types would.

Gliscor might be worth a shot, I have loved its lead set before, and it is efficient against stall with the right set.

Thanks for the rate!!

Originally Posted by Fat connor363

This team is a decent mashup of offensive/defensive, but I believe your only two good defenders, Starmie and Heatran, are a little too balanced and you should invest in a good wall like the ever-common (But for a good reason) Blissey. Other than that, you're set!

This is supposed to be a really offensive team, so Blissey would be really out of place unfortunately, and set up bait for all kinds of pokemon, so I don't think that would work though.

Thanks for the effort to rate though!

Wow that took a long time to reply to, keep the rates coming though :)

[Doctor Who?]

okay, I have done the testing, and I came up with what changes I think I will keep. Azelf as the lead with focus sash was really better than the dual screens leads which I tested, as well as the Gliscor and Aerodactyl I tried. basically it just has the right moves in the right places to prevent any pokemon sweeping me clean and also stopping Spikes with a fast flamethrower to Forretress and Skarmory.

The Heatran changes have been very satisfactory, especially with Stealth Rock on Azelf's set. The current moveset is Magma Storm/Hidden Power Electric/Taunt/Explosion. The worst part of the set is my best move has 85% accuracy, but it's actually been manageable on the set. Also Blissey can do nothing once it's trapped, which is exactly what the team likes.

Infernape needed the Close Combat accuracy as well as the extra moveslot that not having Nasty Plot provided, so that was unfortunately a no go with nasty Plot for nape.

Dragonite, not a great replacement for nape, because it was weak to Stealth Rocks, something that my team didn't try to prevent really, and also lacked priority, so once ddtar got up a dd it was all over.

Jolteon is doing fine with Substitute, but I might test Charge Beam somewhere in the future. With a boost, Hidden Power Fighting can do large amounts to Scarftar, and if I'm lucky I might even have fun with Blissey haha.


Updating the OP with the changes, keep 'em coming guys!

[Smith]

Hey I got the message, glad to see you're back and haven't died in a plane crash or something. Anyways heavy offense is fun and as they go this one is very good! As you've noted scarf Flygon is very problematic to deal with, although with the changes you've made he's a lot more managable. Some things to consider-

I'm not really a humongous fan of MysticGar. CB Scizor isn't quite what I'd be concerned with, as you do have Heatran, INfernape and Empoleon to play around with. Gengar is unique in his ability to eliminate the things that give heavy special offense trouble (Blissey, Snorlax, Tyranitar) and as such would probably serve you better with a set that can adequately achieve this. As boring as it is, SubSplit would be a greatly beneficial change IMHO. You lose the surprise factor, but of course the second you use Protect on Gengar I know what set you're running and you haven't really abused the surprise value there. Behind a Substitute you should be able to handle Scizor adequately and keep yourself alive longer with Pain Split. This also gives you a much better shot at dealing with Blissey, Snorlax and Tyranitar and aids in dealing with stall in general.

I also think you're on the right track with maybe changing Jolteon's set. Charge Beam over Shadow Ball would probably help your sweeping purposes and be more useful- Shadow Ball does nothing that Thunderbolt and HP Ice cannot do besides hit Celebi for a bit more or something, and Charge beam allows you to muscle your way through things you otherwise may not OHKO, like maybe Dragonite without SR or Tyranitar. I think it'll generally be more useful.

Obviously not big changes but the team has reached its pinnacle IMHO. Good team I hope this helps!

[Doctor Who?]

Originally Posted by Fat Smith

Hey I got the message, glad to see you're back and haven't died in a plane crash or something. Anyways heavy offense is fun and as they go this one is very good! As you've noted scarf Flygon is very problematic to deal with, although with the changes you've made he's a lot more managable. Some things to consider-

I'm not really a humongous fan of MysticGar. CB Scizor isn't quite what I'd be concerned with, as you do have Heatran, INfernape and Empoleon to play around with. Gengar is unique in his ability to eliminate the things that give heavy special offense trouble (Blissey, Snorlax, Tyranitar) and as such would probably serve you better with a set that can adequately achieve this. As boring as it is, SubSplit would be a greatly beneficial change IMHO. You lose the surprise factor, but of course the second you use Protect on Gengar I know what set you're running and you haven't really abused the surprise value there. Behind a Substitute you should be able to handle Scizor adequately and keep yourself alive longer with Pain Split. This also gives you a much better shot at dealing with Blissey, Snorlax and Tyranitar and aids in dealing with stall in general.

Alright fine haha! I'll test out all the Gengar changes. But jsut so you guys know, Protect was rarely even for Scizor, it was basically just to scout choice users and such, for example a Flygon U-Turn meant I would just Focus Blast hoping to hit blissey or TTar for heaps. But I guess setting up a Substitute would do the same thing tbh, as long as focus Blast never missed the Pursuiting Scizor, but I could heal myself as well, so I'll go with that, to neutralize the damage from sub. Even though I am now testing a replacement for my Gengar set, I still don't to use Explosion though, since Gengar is still the only real ground resist late game.

I also think you're on the right track with maybe changing Jolteon's set. Charge Beam over Shadow Ball would probably help your sweeping purposes and be more useful- Shadow Ball does nothing that Thunderbolt and HP Ice cannot do besides hit Celebi for a bit more or something, and Charge beam allows you to muscle your way through things you otherwise may not OHKO, like maybe Dragonite without SR or Tyranitar. I think it'll generally be more useful.

Obviously not big changes but the team has reached its pinnacle IMHO. Good team I hope this helps!

No can do with the Shadow Ball replacing, Rotom-A is really annoying, but I haven't been too impressed with Substitute, so I will put charge Beam there instead.

Thanks for the changes Smith, glad to see you're still here man! And no I did not die in a plane crash lmfao :)

[2sly4u]

True, life orb Flygon beats Dragonite. You could opt for Dragon Dance to outspend Life Orb variants. However, even if Flygon kills D-Nite with Outrage, Empoleon OHKOs next turn; and for this team, them losing Flygon is a bigger blow than you losing Dragonite. So he kind of acts as bait for Flygon, if that makes sense. And if you opt for Dragonite, I'd actually put him over Gengar, seeing as you said he sometimes is ineffective and Dragonite has a Ground immunity as well. You need Infernape to check Tyranitar.

[nooblikeaboon]

Alright im gonna give this shit a quick rate.

Problems:
- Flygon (exsp. Scarf)
- Dragonite (exsp. LO DDer - ohkoes everything after 1 DD)
- Gyarados (ohkoes like everything too - just a weaker version of Dnite)

kinda problematic:
- Gengar
- Heatran (exsp. Scarfversions)
- Starmie

Well the easiest solution for the DDers is to not let them set up. Right now the only chance for Dragonite or Gyarados to reliable set up is against your Infernape. Gyarados can also set up against your Empoleon.

I dont really see the need of Grass Knot on your Empoleon and i think HP[Electric] is way way better in this case. A Hydro Pump from Empoleon hurts Swampert for shittons of damage anyways and you even run Shuca Berry to deal with Swampert (Swampert and Flygon are like never on the same team, so the Berry can either cover Flygon or Swampert). HP[Electric] doesnt let Gyarados setup against Empoleon and besides Grass Knot doesnt even deal any important KOs that HP[Electric] doesnt (apart from Swampert).
jfy:
Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. LO Starmie: 75.1% - 88.9% (NOT a guaranteed KO even with SR)
HP[Electric] (70 BP) vs LO Starmie: 65.9% - 78.2% (2hko like GK)
Hydropump vs. Swampert: 49.6% - 58.6% (2hko)

Gengar is problematic for the same reasons. Even though it cant really switch into anything it can switch in after something died and cause pain for you because you also lack safe switch-ins for it. Once again your Infernape is the weak spot allowing Gengar to come in repeatedly.

Scarfheatran will cause you some headaches because you lack safe switch-ins. Even other Heatransets like Subtran can be devastating because they can switch into your own Heatran all day long (and even receive FF-Buffs).

Starmie just has no safe switch-ins....

Scarfflygon will just obliterate your team if Gengar and Azelf are taken out (not that hard considering how frail both are).

Well now that i have identified all you weaknesses it is time to find solutions.

I really like the core of your team consisting of Empoleon+Gengar+Traptran+Azelf.

The 2 Pokes im unsure of if they fit into your current team are Infernape and Jolteon.

The problem is right now Infernape is your only way to remove DDTar (who gets ridicolous easy Setups against Azelf/Heatran/Jolteon (kinda)).

Ok here is what im proposing for now:

Use Stone Edge instead Grass Knot on Infernape. Sure you will have more problems with Swampert but he is rather rare by now (so much Celebis/Shaymins/w.e. on every team) and he wont like Close Combat anyways. And im pretty sure your team is able to wear him down rather quickly (with everything hitting him for ~40%).

Try out Chargebeamlanturn (Sub, Charge Beam, Surf, Ice Beam) over Jolteon. Shits on Blissey and helps vs. Heatran and Starmie and Rotom-w.

Otherwise use at least Baton Pass instead Substitute on Jolteon (you can pass the LO-Boost to Empoleon for example). Not only that but its also a nice scouting tool and an escape move against Tyranitar.

(Shaymin/Celebi/Sceptile/Zapdos sound appealing as an replacement for Infernape/Jolteon but they open up other weaknesses in your team so im kinda reluctant to recommend them.)

Just some quick suggestions. Im not entirely happy what i came up with so i might give you some more ideas later.

My 20 bucks.

[mach3]

Flygon tears through this team like mad. But that is the only pokemon this team simply can't beat. Dead serious, if they have a scarf gon, you auto-lose if they aren't idiots and keep it alive.

Great team btw.

Scarf infernape with decent prediction also walks all over this team provided you aren't god at predicting.

In all honesty, unless you are out-predicted/the opponent has scarfgon/nape then there should be no reason this team should lose.

great team.

your team cannot stop the ever-present hp ground offensive blissey. Because obv that is the metagame's top threat.

[Zomeonez]

You could try Volt Switch on Jolteon.

[2sly4u]

Originally Posted by Fat Zomeonez

You could try Volt Switch on Jolteon.

This is Gen IV. No Volt Switch yet.

[connor363]

This is supposed to be a really offensive team, so Blissey would be really out of place unfortunately, and set up bait for all kinds of pokemon, so I don't think that would work though.

Thanks for the effort to rate though!

Wow that took a long time to reply to, keep the rates coming though :)

Not trying to push here ;) but Blissey, in my opinion is PERFECT for offense. With Modest nature and 252 SpAtk Evs with an "OK" 75 base SpAtk, you can use its walling specifications to stay in the battle even longer while attacking. Here's what I would do:

Blissey @ Life Orb
Nature: Modest
EVs: 252 SpAtk/ 252 Def/ 4 SpDef
-Charge Beam
-Aromatherapy/Hyper Beam
-Softboiled
-Ice Beam

It's not exactly top sweeper material, but it has unresisted coverage with Charge Beam and Ice Beam, forming Pseudo-BoltBeam with reliable recovery and Aromatherapy for your classic supporting. You could also run suicide with STAB Hyper Beam on low HP.

Hope I helped, bye!

[FinalLegendZero]

Originally Posted by Fat connor363

Not trying to push here ;) but Blissey, in my opinion is PERFECT for offense. With Modest nature and 252 SpAtk Evs with an "OK" 75 base SpAtk, you can use its walling specifications to stay in the battle even longer while attacking. Here's what I would do:

Blissey @ Life Orb
Nature: Modest
EVs: 252 SpAtk/ 252 Def/ 4 SpDef
-Charge Beam
-Aromatherapy/Hyper Beam
-Softboiled
-Ice Beam

It's not exactly top sweeper material, but it has unresisted coverage with Charge Beam and Ice Beam, forming Pseudo-BoltBeam with reliable recovery and Aromatherapy for your classic supporting. You could also run suicide with STAB Hyper Beam on low HP.

Hope I helped, bye!

Blissey is not, as you say, "PERFECT for offense". It's really the worst possible choice for an offensive team. You should never, under ANY circumstance, use Hyper Beam competitively in any generation past Gen 1. BoltBeam is not unresisted; Lanturn resists Ice Beam and absorbs Charge Beam. And 75 isn't an "ok" Special Attack. It's actually pretty terrible by OU standards. Seriously, you need to learn how to fight competitively before telling other people how to make their teams.

[george182]

FinalLegendZero you shouldn't insult peoples comments, they are only trying to help. If the rate isn't very useful the Author of the OP will just ignore it anyway.

Onto the team:
You have no reason to use hp fire on Gengar tbh, you would be better off with a sub-split set, helping you out against stall, giving you 350 speed, and also gives you another pokemon to help out against Blissey. Scarf Tyranitar, will just Pursuit and most likely Kill your Gengar anyway, unless you have a substitute up. Scizor is not that common anymore at the top level, and you risk being out-predicted after you protect anyway.

For Jolteon you could try Baton pass over Hiden power, sub pass is a potent combination. But I have found on Jolteon that using Protect is really useful. Scarf Flygon is everywhere and scouting the U-turn/Earthquake is invaluable. Especially when you have a Gengar that can abuse EQ for a free substitute. Protect would be used instead of Substitute on your current set.

Due to your teams stall weakness, problems with Bulky waters, Sub Zapdos etc. I recommend using a Brelloom over Infernape:

Brelloom @ Toxic Orb
Jolly: 252 speed/252 attack/4hp
Or Adamant: 236 hp/252 attack/20 speed
- Spore
- Superpower
- Seed Bomb
- Stone egde

Superpower is needed for the OHKO on Blissey who seems to trouble you, its also a very useful move on Brelloom as most people play around expecting you to have focus punch.

Hope I helped.