Latias (Pre-Soul Dew Analysis, GP 2/2)

Soul Dew-less =/= useless



http://www.serebii.net/pokedex-bw/380.shtml

[Overview]

<p>With the introduction of BW, it seems that Latias has lost what had made her so useful in Ubers in previous generations: her held item, Soul Dew. Due to this, she cannot operate as the deadly offensive pivot that she used to be able to. However, Latias's usefulness can still be salvaged even without Soul Dew. Her naturally high Special Defense and access to Calm Mind still make her an alternative check to Kyogre, arguably the most dominant Pokemon in the tier. Play Latias carefully, and she can still be a huge asset to an Ubers team.</p>

[SET]
name: Uber Calm Mind
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Dragon Pulse
move 3: Recover
move 4: Psyshock / Thunder
item: Leftovers
nature: Calm
evs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>The loss of Soul Dew hit Latias very hard, but as an extremely versatile Pokemon from the beginning, she has been able to adjust and reinvent herself with the change of circumstances. Latias is still an extremely resilient Calm Mind user in the Uber tier. While Grass Arceus, Palkia, and Gastrodon seem like better candidates for checking Kyogre, she still has a number of perks over them. Firstly, her ability, Levitate, renders Latias immune to Spikes and Toxic Spikes, hazards that are prevalent in the Uber metagame. Unlike Gastrodon, Latias can become a long term threat should her counters fall, as she can slowly build up Calm Minds and sweep. Latias also has access to Recover unlike Palkia, making her a longer lasting check to Kyogre. Grass Arceus is a decent check to Kyogre, but being worn down by Spikes could potentially allow it to become 2HKOed by Choice Scarf Water Spout. The biggest catch of using Latias, however, is the fact that the player does not have to run Grass Arceus as a long term check to Kyogre, freeing up a team slot to run a more potent variant such as Extreme Killer Arceus.</p>

<p>Calm Mind allows Latias to boost up alongside other Calm Mind users in Ubers that Latias can defeat one-on-one, including Kyogre, Manaphy, and various formes of Arceus. Dragon Pulse is Latias's most reliable STAB attack. Recover allows her to keep herself healthy and repeatedly come into battle. The final slot is up to the player, and should reflect Latias's overall function. Psyshock allows Latias to bypass the boosts of other Calm Mind users by hitting on their weaker defense, while Thunder is geared further toward countering Kyogre. Either attack is acceptable, since Psyshock is another reliable STAB and hits Blaziken for super effective damage, while Thunder offers Latias the opportunity to hit Steel-types, and a 30% paralysis chance is never bad.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>The EVs are rather simple. Max HP and max Special Defense allows Latias to take huge amounts of special abuse and still live to tell the tale. For example, she can easily avoid being 2HKOed by Choice Scarf Water Spout in the rain after Stealth Rock and Leftovers. Here are some damage calculations to solidify this point:</p>

<ul class="damage_calculation">
<li>Modest Choice Scarf Kyogre's Water Spout in rain vs +0 Latias: 37.09% - 43.68%</li>
<li>Neutral Choice Scarf Palkia's Spacial Rend vs +1 Latias: 40.11% - 47.80%</li>
<li>Timid Choice Specs Reshiram's Blue Flare in sun vs +0 Latias: 43.41% - 51.10%</li>
<li>0 SpA +1 Arceus's Ice Beam (non-STAB) vs +0 Latias: 39.56% - 46.70%</li>
<li>0 SpA +1 Arceus's Ice Beam (non-STAB) vs +1 Latias: 26.37% - 31.32%</li>
</ul>

<p>96 EVs can be moved from Special Defense to Speed, allowing Latias to outspeed Pokemon with base 90 Speed and a neutral nature, but that is the maximum Latias should run, as taking too many Special Defense EVs away would mean she cannot switch into Choice Scarf Kyogre any more.</p>

<p>Hidden Power Fire can be used in the sun to hit Steel-types, but since Latias's main job is to check Kyogre, Thunder is the better option. Roar can be used to defeat other Calm Mind users that lack Roar without having to wait for a critical hit, and it also lets Latias phaze out Mewtwo in a pinch. Draco Meteor is another option over Dragon Pulse if Psyshock is used, as it allows Latias to OHKO Palkia after Stealth Rock damage without using Calm Mind—while surviving Lustrous Orb-boosted Spacial Rend—and deal respectable damage to Dialga, but tends to works against Calm Mind.</p>

<p>Latias excels in teams in which running other Kyogre checks, most notably Grass Arceus, is impractical. A sun team is one of the most obvious examples, as Grass Arceus becomes a huge liability against Pokemon who spam Fire-type attacks. Since Latias encourages the use of other Arceus formes, formes who synergize well with Latias are obviously good teammates. Normal Arceus can switch into Ghost-type attacks aimed at Latias, while Latias can switch into Fighting-type attacks in return. Fighting and Steel Arceus also take on Latias's weaknesses extremely well. Water Arceus can switch into Ice-type attacks, while Latias can take Electric- and Grass-type attacks for it. Rock, Dark, and Fire Arceus also synergize well with Latias.</p>

<p>Ferrothorn walls Latias, uses Leech Seed on her, and sets up Spikes for free. Chansey and Blissey can take anything Latias uses and use Toxic on her. Tyranitar laughs at everything Latias uses and checkmates her with Pursuit and Crunch. Lucario, Excadrill, Terrakion, Scizor, and Fighting Arceus can easily scare out all four and set up on them, although Fighting Arceus cannot set up on Chansey and Blissey. Ho-Oh can switch into the first three with ease—be sure to avoid Leech Seed or a status move—set up a Substitute, and pound away at the opposition with Sacred Fire and Brave Bird. Heatran synergizes with Latias perfectly, while stallbreaking with Taunt, Toxic, and Roar. A Ferrothorn of your own synergizes well with Latias and can set up Spikes.</p>

[SET]
name: Uber Dual Screen
move 1: Reflect
move 2: Light Screen
move 3: Healing Wish
move 4: Dragon Pulse / Wish / Recover
item: Light Clay
nature: Timid
evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>With Latias's decent base 110 Speed, excellent Special Defense, and numerous resistances, she can set up dual screens for the team without many problems at all. While Latias may seem to be outclassed by Cresselia, her higher Speed, better resistances, and ability to hurt things differentiates her from the moon swan. The easiest way to play Latias is to send in a sweeper and do as much damage to the opposition as it can while avoiding being KOed. Once its counters are removed, send in Latias, set up Reflect and Light Screen, then use Healing Wish to bring the sweeper in for a second chance at sweeping.</p>

<p>The final move is variable. Dragon Pulse is a reliable STAB move, stopping Latias from turning into Taunt fodder. Wish gives the recipient a relatively safe switch-in without having to sacrifice Latias, while Recover gives Latias reliable recovery, allowing her to come in repeatedly to set up dual screens.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>The EV spread gives Latias maximum Speed and bulk. Max Special Defense can be used instead of max Speed so Latias can still switch into Kyogre, but since her main advantage over Cresselia is her Speed, that should be taken advantage of as much as possible. Hidden Power Fire can be used in the last spot to deter Ferrothorn and Forretress from setting up hazards too freely, but is quite useless otherwise. Magic Coat can also be useful to bounce back Taunt.</p>

<p>There are too many good dual screens recipients in Ubers to list. Double Dance Groudon is possibly the best, because it synergises well with Latias, and getting +2 / +2 becomes quite easy with dual screens up. Extreme Killer Arceus, Rayquaza, Double Dance Terrakion, Darkrai, Mewtwo, Blaziken, and Swords Dance Garchomp are just a few of the very powerful sweepers that become a lot more intimidating with dual screens support. Baton Pass users such as Gorebyss and Mew are also much harder to stop when Reflect and Light Screen are up, and especially difficult to deal with if given a second chance with Healing Wish.</p>

<p>Taunt is almost a surefire way to stop Latias, unless she uses Magic Coat. Fortunately for Latias, Taunt is relatively rare in Ubers. Deoxys-S is hardly seen, and Latias outspeeds Heatran, so she can get at least one screen up or pull off Healing Wish. Furthermore, Taunt variants of Mewtwo are rarely, if ever, seen. Tyranitar can defeat all three, surviving a +1 Aura Sphere from Taunt Mewtwo if necessary. Kyogre also defeats them with its flippers down.</p>

[Other Options]

<p>Latias has a few other coverage moves that she can use, namely Surf and Grass Knot. However, since her main job is to check Kyogre and other Calm Mind users, the moves given are the most effective. Refresh allows Latias to shrug off Toxic that Blissey and Chansey throw at her. Thunder Wave and Toxic are useful, but generally, neither is worth a slot. Substitute can be used to scout switches and allow Latias to escape from Pursuit. Charm can be also be used, but Reflect is better in most circumstances. Choice Specs and Choice Scarf are also usable, but such sets are better left to stronger Dragon-types such as Palkia, Dialga, and Reshiram.</p>

[Checks and Counters]

<p>Tyranitar can take virtually everything from Latias and checkmate her with Crunch and Pursuit. Blissey and Chansey wall Latias completely and cripple her with Toxic. Steel-types in general wall Latias comfortably. Ferrothorn can use Leech Seed on her and set up hazards for free, Steel Arceus laughs at everything she uses, and Jirachi can use Thunder Wave and Iron Head to take her out, while Scizor and Metagross can checkmate her in a similar fashion to Tyranitar. Even Lucario can take a hit or two from uninvested Latias. Arceus forms with Roar or a super effective STAB—such as Dark Arceus—beat Latias one-on-one. Finally, Latias can be revenge killed by any strong physical attacker with a super effective STAB or an overpowered super effective special attack, such as Draco Meteor from Dialga or Palkia.</p>

[Dream World]

<p>While Latias does not get a Dream World ability, she gets her fantastic hold item, Soul Dew, back. With it, she can unlock her secret Super Saiyan 2 power to become one of the most useful and versatile Pokemon in the Uber metagame. Heavy investment in Special Defense is no longer needed to take on enemies such as Kyogre, allowing her to invest more in Speed and Special Attack, allowing Latias to thus serve as the offensive pivot she had been in past generations. No longer will you have to rely on make-shift Kyogre counters such as Grass Arceus and Gastrodon either; Soul Dew Latias will have the accursed sea leviathan firmly under her boot.</p>

Skeleton is up. QC and comment away.

I don't know about the Calm Mind set.

Calm Mind Latias is bulky, yes, but also extremely weak. While surviving a Scarf Palkia Spacial Rend is cool and all, a +1 Dragon Pulse also never OHKOes a full HP Palkia (84.1% - 99.7%) and isn't even guaranteed to OHKO after SR damage, and an unboosted Dragon Pulse doesn't even come close to OHKOing Palkia. Palkia also outspeeds that current spread, so Latias kind of fails as a Palkia check with neither the ability to outspeed or OHKO. Furthermore, Latias is still a shaky check to SpecsOgre since Timid variants outspeed and 2HKO with both Water Spout and Ice Beam, which is still the most deadly Kyogre variant, and Modest still 2HKOes while you won't do jack with Dragon Pulse. Heck, without Soul Dew, Latias's Thunder unboosted doesn't even 2HKO 0 HP Kyogre with that EV spread. (It does 40.9% - 48.5%). Furthermore, you can't really be a Specs Reshiram check either since Blue Flare 2HKOes after SR and it will outspeed you due to the bulk investment Latias needs to keep up without Soul Dew. Latias also lacks the offensive power to break Pursuiters as well, but then again, the only really common one nowadays is Tyranitar.

Also, Leftovers isn't really an advantage when Sun/Rain, not Sandstorm, are the dominant weathers and Arceus's defenses without Soul Dew are far, far superior.

I also dislike the Support set, mostly because its set up bait for every hazard layer out there, Latias isn't defensive enough to wall much unlike Arceus or Lugia without Soul Dew, and its sheer Pursuit bait. Latias's Wishes aren't that big anyway.

The Dual Screen set, however, looks pretty good. Healing Wish is a nice plus over Latios as well as superior bulk, and its not outclassed by Cresselia due to better Speed and more resistances.

A few problems, I tried the Calm Mind set and it wasn't that bad. It can even beat Calm Mind Giratina-O one-on-one easily. Latias also beats Electric, Calm Mind Ground Arceus and Kyogre. Although Specs Kyogre will 2HKO Latias, most are Modest nature nowadays anyway, Latias can outspeed and Thunder it first. Even with Soul Dew, Latias still might lose to Specs Kyogre if she comes in on Ice Beam.

Latias cannot invest in Speed without Soul Dew, if you run Timid, Latias is still too weak to OHKO Palkia, while Kyogre will now 2HKO you with Scarf Water Spout. A probable solution to this is using Draco Meteor to KO Palkia at +1 guaranteed, but CM + DM seems iffy. At least Draco Meteor allows Latias to smack Groudon and even Dialga at +1. Dialga's own Draco Meteor doesn't OHKO Calm Latias at +1. To deal with Reshiram, I recommend Latias to just max out Special Defense to survive 2 Blue Flare and KO with Draco Meteor after Stealth Rock.

I think you should deslash Roar on the Calm Mind set because Lugia probably does that better and Latias is better off finishing Kyogre and Manaphy with Psychock or Thunder.

You should remove the support set because Lugia or Arceus kinda outclass it, minus some resistances. Latias's Wish is pretty small so that isn't a big advantage.

Also, Fireburn Tyranitar isn't that common in Ubers, it just appears randomly :P No Pursuit users means Latias is free to spam Draco Meteor, although it's weak initially, after a boost of 2 it will hit HARD.

I think Leftovers is a pretty big advantage, that passive recovery allows Latias to boost up more often, and when something switches, Latias gains free recovery.

I haven't tried the Dual Screen set. I will try to put Calm Mind Latias in the old Classic Stall team LOL AGAIN. Latias's weak initial power hurts a bit but she did well actually when I tried her. Mono Attacking Kyogre has no chance vs CM Latias since Psychock allows Latias to bypass the boosts.

Missing Lugia and Ho-Oh as counters. Both will LOL at Dragon Pulse while Psychock will not hurt Ho-Oh too much. Lugia will Dragon Tail or Toxic, Ho-OH can Brave Bird Latias for the 2HKO.

Latias's biggest advantage over Arceus are the Spikes and Toxic Spikes immunity, more resistances and Leftovers.

Fireburn said:

I don't know about the Calm Mind set.

Calm Mind Latias is bulky, yes, but also extremely weak. While surviving a Scarf Palkia Spacial Rend is cool and all, a +1 Dragon Pulse also never OHKOes a full HP Palkia (84.1% - 99.7%) and isn't even guaranteed to OHKO after SR damage, and an unboosted Dragon Pulse doesn't even come close to OHKOing Palkia. Palkia also outspeeds that current spread, so Latias kind of fails as a Palkia check with neither the ability to outspeed or OHKO. Furthermore, Latias is still a shaky check to SpecsOgre since Timid variants outspeed and 2HKO with both Water Spout and Ice Beam, which is still the most deadly Kyogre variant, and Modest still 2HKOes while you won't do jack with Dragon Pulse. Heck, without Soul Dew, Latias's Thunder unboosted doesn't even 2HKO 0 HP Kyogre with that EV spread. (It does 40.9% - 48.5%). Furthermore, you can't really be a Specs Reshiram check either since Blue Flare 2HKOes after SR and it will outspeed you due to the bulk investment Latias needs to keep up without Soul Dew. Latias also lacks the offensive power to break Pursuiters as well, but then again, the only really common one nowadays is Tyranitar..

Click to expand...

You easily check Kyogre unless they go around spamming Ice Beam (c'mon who doesn't just Spout the first time.. even current "checks" in the metagame take a massive chunk), and even then, you have ~50% chance to survive a 2HKO from a Modest unboosted Ice Beam from Kyogre if you run 252/252+ factoring in SR. Also, if they do Ice Beam, you will most likely have a Pokemon that would love to switch in on it. It may not have much power, but it has the bulk to slowly and steadily set up on quite a bit in this metagame.

I think Latias has merit. First off though, it should simply run max SpD on the first set. The Speed really accomplishes nothing as a base 90 Speed Pokemon would have to run 164 EVs or higher to outspeed Latias with 0 EVs, and, to be realistic, nothing is going to go that high unless they are max with a +Speed, or Giratina-O. Giratina-O has the same outcome either way unless it has Dragon Claw or phazes you with Dragon Tail (which Speed would not help against...). Also, deslash Roar -- you really need the coverage from either of those 2 moves.

I also don't like the final set. Its done purpose is accomplished much better by a lot of Pokemon and, although it has the bulk, its typing is not really conducive to a supporting set without the kick Soul Dew provides.

Some other stuff: Mention Refresh in OO, and the possessive for Latias is Latias's.

QC approved 1/2. (this is tentative, I'd like to talk with Fireburn and other QC members on IRC before this receives its second stamp or first rejection)

Yeah, I only put in the final set to see what you all thought. To be honest, I don't want to write it up either, but since it was in the 4th gen analysis, it was something to try out, I suppose. I'll remove it now.

I'm still not sure about the EV change for now, since the main purpose I was using 96 Spe was to outspeed the variants of Kyogre that ran Modest 252 Spe (Like the old Choice Specs set). I'll change it and rework all the calcs, but something to think about. EDIT: And I completely fucked up the Palkia calc o_0.

Mention HP Fire on the Dual Screen set so Forry/Ferro can't just come in and start spouting hazards.

Talked over the CM set with firecape and we agree that it's worth an analysis.

QC APPROVED (2/2)

Thanks for the approvals, I'll get this done soonish.

With Latias's approval, Gyarados has a new free food to set up on. Gyarados Dragon Dances and Outrages Latias = GG. Dragon Pulse doesn't even come close to KOing Gyarados. Also Latias can beat Blaziken if the sun isn't out or unboosted, might want to mention that.

No mention of Draco Meteor? I used it with Calm Mind to beat Calm Mind Giratina-O and hit Dialga harder before it Roars you out. Draco Meteor is the only way Latias can OHKO Palkia after just Stealth Rock damage, sometimes it might be useful to OHKO Palkia especially when you are unboosted, might want to mention that since Lustrous Orb Palkia's Spacial Rend doesn't OHKO Latias either.

trickroom said:

With Latias's approval, Gyarados has a new free food to set up on. Gyarados Dragon Dances and Outrages Latias = GG. Dragon Pulse doesn't even come close to KOing Gyarados. Also Latias can beat Blaziken if the sun isn't out or unboosted, might want to mention that.

No mention of Draco Meteor? I used it with Calm Mind to beat Calm Mind Giratina-O and hit Dialga harder before it Roars you out. Draco Meteor is the only way Latias can OHKO Palkia after just Stealth Rock damage, sometimes it might be useful to OHKO Palkia especially when you are unboosted, might want to mention that since Lustrous Orb Palkia's Spacial Rend doesn't OHKO Latias either.

Click to expand...

I'll add Draco Meteor in AC for the first set, I guess. Gyarados won't like Latias' second option in the Calm Mind set at all =D. You don't need Draco Meteor to beat Palkia if you're at +1, since you're setting up on it anyway, lol, but unboosted is worth considering.

Finished writing up Latias, ready for GP checks.

Okay, I'm doing this right now.
omit
add
comment
Cap/decap
Pretty good, just some awkward wordage here and there. Otherwise...



[GP 1/2]

Thanks for the GP check NixHex, changes made, ready for number 2.

Deletions
Additions / Corrections
Comments


Good job.



GP 2 / 2

Thanks Calm Pokemaster, changes implemented.

This is done!

uploaded