CAP 13 CAP 2 - Part 6 - Counters Discussion

Rising_Dusk · Dec 7, 2011

Now that we have the typing, stats, and lack of competitive abilities chosen for CAP 2, we know a lot about the way CAP 2 will work. Before we move onto movepool, we must first discuss counters and checks for CAP 2 in a more meaningful way. We have a list of Pokemon that we wanted to check CAP 2 in threats discussion, and I will list them below for reference purposes. Of these, we will now decide which will handle CAP 2 through its naturally learned movepool (and potentially even including Sketch), and which won't. We want a certain few Pokemon to beat CAP 2 soundly, but we also don't want every Steel-type in OU to beat CAP 2 reliably, as that would result in the opposite problem of it being too easy to beat. Keep all of this in mind for this discussion, which will be open for 48 hours until the art thread closes. It's entirely possible if discussion demands it that I will leave this open for longer.

The list of threats we came up with before and adhered to since, in order of importance, are:

Heatran
Jirachi
Skarmory
Hydreigon
Dragonite

We since decided in threats and beyond that we should handle Dragonite as a potential threat, and we have done a number of things to further this in stats such as 81 Speed. This would suggest to me that Dragonite is not as reliable in handling CAP 2 as it could have been, which I consider a good thing. We may discuss that in this thread, however.

What other Pokemon out there should we force to handle CAP 2? Are there any, or is this enough? I have more questions to ask here, and they are listed below.

Given the combination of typing, ability, and stat pool now decided, which previously defined threats are considered hard counters to the project?
Which Pokemon are regarded as basic counters?
Which Pokemon are checks?
Are the Pokemon that are currently able to counter the project the Pokemon we want/need to counter the project?
If not, what must be done to handle these Pokemon? Is it unavoidable?
What Pokemon have arisen in discussions that were not brought up before? As in, are there Pokemon that counter/check this concept on concepts that are not focused around its typing? Where should they be placed in the discussion?
Which Pokemon have been taken out of the counters discussion due to the stat pool and ability?
Which Pokemon have moved from threats purely by typing to checks? To neutral match-ups?
Which Pokemon are now countered by the project fully? Which are checked by the project? Which have become neutral match-ups against the project?
With this set list of counters and checks, does this fulfill the concept's goal?

The criteria for a hard counter are as follows, and hard counters must satisfy at least a few of these, but potentially as many as possible. Note that this is very tricky considering Sketch, but we should focus on making CAP 2's counters handle CAP 2 as reliably as possible considering any or the most powerful sets.

Can switch into this CAP's Strongest reliable STAB attacks at least three times from full health.
Can switch into this CAP's strongest possible coverage move at least twice from full health.
Can stall this CAP indefinitely using its recovery options either forcing the CAP out or healing enough that the stalling Pokemon can alternate between recovery and attacking.
Can OHKO or 2HKO the CAP with one of the moves on that Pokemon's relevant official Smogon moveset.
Can cripple this CAP with a permanent status move without risking a OHKO.
Can set up, use hazards, weather, or otherwise execute an opponent's strategy without risking a 2HKO.

Attacking Moves that would turn Pokemon on the CAP's list of Hard Counters into Checks under ordinary circumstances will not be allowed. Non-Attacking Moves such as stat boosters or Taunt that would turn Pokemon on the CAP's list of Hard Counters into Checks will not be allowed.

Note: If it would take both an attacking and a non-attacking move to alter a Hard Counter, whichever discussion comes first will limit the second discussion.

For example, if Dragon Dance + Close Combat would turn a Pokemon from a Hard Counter into a Check, where neither Dragon Dance nor Close Combat alone would do so (e.g. Only +1 LO CC OHKOs, but the counter is ordinarily faster and can OHKO the CAP after taking a +0 LO Hit from Close Combat) then if Dragon Dance is selected first, Close Combat cannot be selected. If Close Combat is selected first, then Dragon Dance cannot be selected.

Here is a link to our threats discussion for reference.

CAP 2 thus far:

Korski said:
Concept: Sketch Artist

Description: A Pokemon that learns Sketch, once, and everything that goes along with that.

Justification:

In terms of uniqueness, I think that few existing Pokemon can match DPP Smeargle, an otherwise laughably worthless Pokemon trolling OU with access to every trick in the book (or at least 4 of them) but also affecting the metagame greatly by becoming a top threat in the lead metagame. This Pokemon will borrow some of that uniqueness by learning the move Sketch and thus having access to ONE surprise/strategic/gutshot bonus move to supplement its pre-existing movepool. Being otherwise competently built (read: usable stats), this Poke could be a top threat or specialist for reasons we can't even predict yet.

Questions To Be Answered:

How will a Poke that has access to any one move out of all the moves in the game affect common battling tactics, namely prediction, scouting, and switching?

Which Sketch moves will become most common on this Poke's best sets? Does Sketchmon's success rely on hiding that secret Sketch move until just the right moment or can it succeed with predictably powerful moves like Spore, Spikes, Hurricane, Shell Smash, etc.?

Does this unique and powerful access to moves need to be counterbalanced elsewhere in the Pokemon's design? If so, then to what degree?

What kind of impact can Sketchmon have on teambuilding in terms of being able to patch holes with common utility moves like Rapid Spin or Toxic Spikes?

Explanation: The key here is that we have a lot of freedom to construct a unique Pokemon while staying within the confines of the concept. Typing, stats, abilities, and even most of the movepool are completely fair game so long as the Poke learns Sketch only once along the way and that we keep that in mind during previous steps. Now, this doesn't mean the CAP process will be directionless; Rising Dusk is pretty well organized and good at keeping discussions focused, and the concept itself has firm grounding in Smeargle's precedent. What's really being studied with this concept is movepool diversity and effectiveness, so it should have the most effect on the movepool process, where movepool creators will have to carefully balance their Sketchmon's actual movepool with the possibility of adding any one other move to the list. In terms of the metagame, there is no doubt in my mind that throwing a wildcard like this into the mix will strongly affect the metagame.

Focus: Bulky Offense
Typing: Grass / Ghost
Stats: 64 HP / 120 Atk / 100 Def / 85 SpA / 120 SpD / 81 Spe
Ability: No Competitive Ability

tl;dr: Quack! (Counters!)

Rising_Dusk · Dec 7, 2011

Before we get too far into this, I want to post my current understanding of CAP 2 and where I think we should go. I didn't include this in the OP because I feel that it would clutter it too much with all of the policy that must go there. I do think that you should read this before jumping in and posting your own remarks, however.

CAP 2 gets one use of Sketch, as hopefully everyone is aware of by now.

That's a big deal. There are a lot of things CAP 2 could do, then, and it is understandable that if CAP 2 wants to, it can easily Sketch a move to beat one of its hard counters. That's not necessarily a problem, however, because we've ensured that CAP 2 is not very fast relative to the offensive metagame. This means that CAP 2 forfeits a Speed-boosting move in order to lure and beat a target, which opens it up to many other offensive checks. For that reason, I don't consider that an issue for CAP 2's success or balance.

Of CAP 2's boosting moves, the most likely to see use are Quiver Dance, Tail Glow, Gear Shift, Belly Drum, and Coil. Skarmory is actually a surprisingly effective response to all of these, as its natural physical bulk lessens the threat of physical sets, and specially bulky Skarmory takes at most 60% damage from HPFighting on the special sets. HPFire would be a problem there, but then Heatran walls the sets perfectly. Jirachi is also surprisingly effective against the special sets, as even if it takes a +3 Shadow Ball or +2 Shadow Claw, it is not OHKOed after 1 layer of Spikes + SR damage and can OHKO CAP 2 back. These are all good. I think someone posting more definitive calcs on the matter would be helpful, though. It is possible that we will not want Shadow Ball for CAP 2's special Ghost STAB down the road, and may want something less powerful. I also don't want to underplay how easily non-Speed-boosting sets can be revenged, both by Scizor (who OHKOes 4/0 CAP 2 after SR and sandstorm damage) and faster threats in general. Choice Scarf Hydreigon, which is relatively popular already, is very successful at beating CAP 2 even with a Speed boost.

Anyway, some food for thought. With this post, I will open the thread to discussion from the general population. I'll post more feedback with some other discussion direction as the thread goes on.

verbatim · Dec 7, 2011

My apologies, I made the mistake of posting before I was finished with my content. (also, thanks for the answer)

Insofar as checks go, Sketchy can beat a surprising amount of them if he devotes his sketch move to the task. Assuming 252 Attack and an Adamant nature Sketchy's Hi Jump Kick deals 98.8% - 116.6% damage to 4 hp Hydregion, a one hit ko most of the time. Alternatively, one could run Jolly Life Orb and deal 116.6% - 137.4%, a guaranteed kill. Physically defensive Skarmory takes 93.4% - 110.2% damage from a Blue Fire assuming 252 Special Attack and a Modest nature. A KO is guaranteed if you instead opt to use a Timid Life Orb set (110.2% - 129.9%). It is worth noting that even with a Modest Life Orb, Sketchy cannot score a clean kill on Specially Defensive Skarmory (81.4% - 96.4%). Specially Defensive Hetran (the Hetran with the highest Defense/HP onsite) takes 99.5% - 117.1% damage from a Jolly Hi Jump Kick, meaning that adding either Adamant or Life Orb will result in a guaranteed one hit KO.

As Dusk said, this isn't that bad of a problem, considering that sacrificing your Sketch move leaves you open, but it does mean that Sketchy won't have many hard counters.

While Some counters fall to coverage moves that'd make sense to use, there are things that Sketchy won't be able to stop by the simple virtue of its counter move becoming completely unusable afterwords. Adamant Life Orb V-Create only deals 96.5% - 113.9% damage to the bulkiest Jirachi (Wish+CM). Versus Bulky DD Dragonite, Icicle Sphere needs to hit 4 times for the kill. Afterwords, both of these moves will render Sketchy useless.

Deck Knight · Dec 7, 2011

The existence of Sketch is thorny as far as hard counters, since it an adapt its attacks to any single given threat, so I really think we should focus our discussion on which coverage moves outside of Sketch would make Sketchmon a hard counter.

Thus my initial argument would be to not avoid any naturally occurring Fire, Fighting, or Ground coverage moves over 75 Base Power. I suppose Shadow Claw + Brick Break might then become the default physical neutral coverage choice, which would in general be bad for Hydregion and Heatran, but a +1 LO Brick Break doesn't OHKO either of them, and there is mercifully no booster which can buff both Attack and Special Defense, so CAP2 is still left open to attacks. For Ground moves that leaves Bulldoze and I somehow doubt anyone will be gung-ho to put a Fire move on CAP 2. Otherwise I think we can open ourselves up to a multitude of STAB and support options.

The one support option I think we should avoid entirely from a countering standpoint is Leech Seed. With solid defenses and low HP, CAP 2 can quickly become a menace and stall out threats very effectively. I think we want to go outside the route of SubSeed here, because there are very few things that can effectively manage a Substitute/Leech Seed/Sacred Fire [sketch]/Filler set, and of these I think Leech Seed is a worse culprit than sub.

Note I'm making these suggestions in light of counters, because some of the counter definitions include stalling a foe out. It would be almost impossible for a Skarmory to stall out a SubSeed set if it risked getting burned by Sacred Fire in each attempt, which cripples both its offensive threat to CAP2 and stalling potential. Heatran is slower and would have to perpetually fight Substitute and whatever the filler move would do.

So in summary now is the time to broaden out horizons and focus on the implications of natural coverage and support to supplement Sketch. CAP2 has very few completely hard counters, so we need to focus on what is supplementing its ability to choose the best coverage move of choice for any given check.

The LoudWendle · Dec 7, 2011

With the single sketch, its near unpredictable and uncountable with sacrificing a pokemon.

Sketch allows Spore, Breloom is considered near uncountable because of spore. I switch in say heatran to resist all its stab moves and its coverage move, spore cripples the counter leaving it as set up fodder for it self. Just by pulling a spore off, takes the pokemon out of the game its bulky enough to take the first hit, the new sleep mechanics just enrage things. With the correct prediction it can set up on anything at all assuming its given a set up move outside of sketch it could sweep teams.
If we assume that pulls off a +1 atk boost from somewhere its powerful enough to cripple most pokemon. Even if its OKed 2nd turn its done its job.

Although this may seem far-fetched there is evidence to support my claim, Every pokemon with the option of running spore has run it, regardless of its other moves. Period. CAP2 will be no different. This isn't to say its a bad thing but it needs to brought to everyone's attention.

Any true counter/ check must be a sleep talker, subber, immune to sleep or otherwise inflicted with a status.

Note Every set runs spore.
http://www.smogon.com/bw/pokemon/breloom
http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/smeargle

capefeather · Dec 7, 2011

I agree with Deck Knight's implication that we haven't paid a whole lot of attention to defensive sets in these threads. He also mentioned SubSeed, and I'm going to take a different direction and suggest a check to defensive sets that might help against SubSeed: Tentacruel. It's neutral to both STABs, it resists Sacred Fire, and it can even run Liquid Ooze to give CAP 2 a really hard time, especially if Tentacruel switches into a Leech Seed. 252 Atk Adamant Shadow Claw clocks at 35.4% - 42.0% against 252/240+ Tentacruel. This does mean that Power Whip can 2HKO, though. Admittedly, Tentacruel doesn't do a whole lot back, but Toxic Spikes is always a threat...

Celebi unfortunately takes a truckload from Shadow Claw:

252 Atk Adamant Shadow Claw vs 252/220+ Celebi: 54.0% - 64.4%

However, Tangrowth and Shaymin are worth mentioning. Tangrowth has awesome physical bulk, both are immune to Leech Seed, and I guess neither minds burns *that* much, at least if Tangrowth runs Giga Drain for its STAB.

verbatim · Dec 7, 2011

The LoudWendle said:
With the single sketch, its near unpredictable and uncountable with sacrificing a pokemon.

Sketch allows Spore, Breloom is considered near uncountable because of spore. I switch in say heatran to resist all its stab moves and its coverage move, spore cripples the counter leaving it as set up fodder for it self. Just by pulling a spore off, takes the pokemon out of the game its bulky enough to take the first hit, the new sleep mechanics just enrage things. With the correct prediction it can set up on anything at all assuming its given a set up move outside of sketch it could sweep teams.
If we assume that pulls off a +1 atk boost from somewhere its powerful enough to cripple most pokemon. Even if its OKed 2nd turn its done its job.

Although this may seem far-fetched there is evidence to support my claim, Every pokemon with the option of running spore has run it, regardless of its other moves. Period. CAP2 will be no different. This isn't to say its a bad thing but it needs to brought to everyone's attention.
Any true counter/ check must be a sleep talker, subber, immune to sleep or otherwise inflicted with a status.

Note Every set runs spore.
http://www.smogon.com/bw/pokemon/breloom
http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/smeargle

To be fair, no pokemon has Spore and Shell Smash/Quiver Dance (Bar Smeargle, who utilizes both). Breloom doesn't have a move on the same level as Spore.

EDIT:

NAM/AM?

Could you please clarify?

Rising_Dusk · Dec 7, 2011

I have some hard rules of my own for NAM and AM discussions down the road, so I really would like us to avoid trying to discuss them now. I recognize that we'll definitely have to limit coverage to ensure that certain Pokemon maintain their position as counters, and the same goes for support options. What I really think we need to hit on here is if the checks list we've established is sufficient, whether we should seek out some more, or whether we've screwed up the list any with our competitive choices so far (and if so, how we fix that).

For instance, we're now faster than Heatran. Is that a problem, you think? Personally, I don't think it is, but now the inevitable Tail Glow set has the option to best Heatran with HPFighting, for instance. I don't think that's an issue, but this thread is for everyone else to voice their concerns. I know that doesn't give us too much to talk about, but thanks to the new threats discussion stage we ran earlier, a lot of what is normally discussed here has already been addressed in extensive detail.

Asylum_Rhapsody · Dec 7, 2011

The LoudWendle said:
Any true counter/ check must be a sleep talker, subber, immune to sleep or otherwise inflicted with a status.

. . . You know what has Insomnia and resists both of Sketchy's STABs? Honchkrow. I know that Honchkrow isn't all that great in OU, but I just think that it would be hilarious with that in mind if a scarecrow won the art poll. That Sucker Punch... Not just that, either. Sketchy is weaker on the physical side, and the crow has some other great physical STAB moves that Sketchy would be weak against and a great attack stat to go with them. Shame it's slower (edit: and has crap defenses, of course).

Jebus McAzn · Dec 7, 2011

It's worth noting that standard Poison Heal Gliscor will laugh in the face of any Sporing grass set. Taunt stops any boosting/baton passing, while our physically based Grass/Ghost Sketchmon can't do much to it based by virtue of stats and typing alone. Any set running Ice Fang will destroy CAP 2 while most standard sets can just Swords Dance on it or Sub/Toxic.

Raikaria · Dec 8, 2011

Jebus McAzn said:
It's worth noting that standard Poison Heal Gliscor will laugh in the face of any Sporing grass set. Taunt stops any boosting/baton passing, while our physically based Grass/Ghost Sketchmon can't do much to it based by virtue of stats and typing alone. Any set running Ice Fang will destroy CAP 2 while most standard sets can just Swords Dance on it or Sub/Toxic.

Well, Gliscor dosen't get the last laught if it's not poisioned yet and swithes into Spore...

And at +2, Gliscor is actually 2HKO'ed if we choose to give Sketchy a more powerful STAB. [Not to mention Special Attacks/HP Ice]

Anyway, we know common steels can wall Sketchy, but aside from Heatran, they're bait for Magnezone.

So, which non-steels can we rely upon? Hydregion is an obvious possibility, and Honchkrow sounds like the best trapper avaliable for Sketchy.

Mandibuzz can phase it out with arguably more impunity than Skarmory can, due to far superior special bulk.

Togekiss is a decent check, in fact, any fully evolved Normal/Flying type is. Even Pidgeot. Except Farfetch'ed. Because Farfetch'ed sucks that badly.

Snorlax might be a decent check, especially to special sets.

Spork · Dec 8, 2011

Heatran is not really a 'counter' in the fullest term. Tail Glow beats it with HP Fighting - it outspeeds and KOs offensive sets, and although specially defensive sets can withstand it and KO in return (with luck, SR and LO recoil!) they can lose outright to bulky Quiver Dancers, who can easily get multiple boosts in front of weak Lava Plumes and rest off the damage. Meanwhile, all-out attacking sets - most of which, in terms of optimal type coverage, would opt to use fighting or fire moves - can deal with Heatran on the switch. It's hard to say that Heatran can be a hard counter when plenty of (what will probably be 'standard') sets are going to opt to use fighting moves

Generally, Heatran struggles as a counter to most special sets, and plenty of Physical sets are going to use Fighting moves - probably as their secondmost choice, after a fire move. This said, he is still going to be a firm check, as anything that does to use a fire move (or really anything but a strong fighting or a ground move, to which balloon Heatran still survives) or a physical boosting move (a +2 HP Fighting on a Shell Smash set cannot OHKO offensive variants even with massive EV investment - Stealth Rock can secure it, but still, the huge EV investment is not ideal) is generally falling to him, anything that opts to try and subseed it to death just gets roared out as heatran lols at Leaf Blade and Sacred Fire, and supportive or bulky sets just get blasted with Lava Plume or Fire Blast.

When it comes to low BP Fire/Ground/Fighting moves, it is apparent that Heatran stops being a counter to Shell Smash the moment we give it Brick Break, and while Brick Break CAP2 is hard countered by Skarm, I'm not sure if we really want that because it seems to me that Heatran can check CAP2 in more ways than anyone else, and giving it Brick Break just adds to its ridiculous unpredictability. I don't know if I would argue against Bulldoze though, even though it destroys Heatran, just because it offers terrible coverage and gets walled by 3 of 5 of our threats. Sorry for polljumping anyway.

LouisCyphre · Dec 8, 2011

I don't know where the idea of CAP 2 having Spore and a set-up move at the same time came from. At worst, I imagine CAP 2 would have something like Hone Claws or Toxic Spikes in its movepool and nothing like the hardcore stat-ups that some people seem to think are compatible with Spore.

Spenstar · Dec 8, 2011

I imagine weaker set-up moves would be ideal for CAP2 to have naturally, to allow the choice between good setup and a coverage move. If you get Hone Claws, Calm Mind, and Work Up naturally, you can piece together a weak setup set with a sketch move, or use sketch to make a better setup move instead.

Speaking of which, I really don't see the problem with Brick Break. Yes, it can damage Heatran, but its relatively weak and does jack shit to mons who take it neutrally like Skarmory and Jirachi. Using a moveslot to deal with Heatran leaves you open against other checks. If it doesnt OHKO (ill need to do some calcs) then that's even better.

EspyOwner · Dec 8, 2011

I thought the point of having a counters discussion was NOT to have niche counters, like Honchkrow/Mandibuzz/Togekiss/etc.

This is for discussing potential counters that already have a place in OU, or are viable in OU outside of small niches, correct?

Gothic Togekiss · Dec 8, 2011

Asylum_Rhapsody said:
. . . You know what has Insomnia and resists both of Sketchy's STABs? Honchkrow.

Honchkrow would make an nice check towards CAP2 as it can OHKO and/or near OHKO most set CAP2 could use. It has to be careful though being burned by some random Sarced Fire or paralyzed can easily ruin the bird's day.

Honchkrow vs CAP2

Shell Smash:
252 Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs 0 HP/0 -1 Def : 202.97% - 238.66%
252 Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs 0 HP/0 -1 Def : 303.35% - 357.99%
252 Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Night Slash vs 0 HP/0 -1 Def : 178.44% - 209.67%

Offensive Quiver Dance:
252 Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs 0 HP/0 Def : 136.06% - 160.59%
252 Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs 0 HP/0 Def : 202.97% - 238.66%
252 Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Night Slash vs 0 HP/0 Def : 119.33% - 140.52%

Bulky Quiver Dance (252/0):
252 Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs 252 HP/0 Def : 100.3% - 118.37%
252 Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs 252 HP/0 Def : 150% - 177.11%
252 Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Night Slash vs 252 HP/0 Def : 87.65% - 103.01%

Truly Bulky Quiver Dance (252/252 Bold)
252 Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs 252 HP/252 Def : 79.52% - 93.98%
252 Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs 252 HP/252 Def : 118.37% - 139.16%
252 Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Night Slash vs 252 HP/252 Def : 69.58% - 82.23%

CAP2 vs Honchkrow

Shell Smash (Mixed, Hasty)
252 +2 SpAtk Life Orb CAP2 Hidden Power Fighting vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Honchkrow: 73.31% - 86.51%
252 +2 SpAtk Life Orb CAP2 Energy Ball vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Honchkrow: 63.05% - 74.19%
252 +2 SpAtk Life Orb CAP2 Giga Drain vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Honchkrow: 58.94% - 69.5%
252 +2 SpAtk Life Orb CAP2 Shadow Ball vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Honchkrow: 63.05% - 74.19%
4 +2 Atk Life Orb CAP2 Power Whip vs 0 HP/0 Def Honchkrow: 97.07% - 114.37%
4 +2 Atk Life Orb CAP2 Leaf Blade vs 0 HP/0 Def Honchkrow: 73.02% - 85.92%
4 +2 Atk Life Orb CAP Shadow Claw vs 0 HP/0 Def Honchkrow: 56.6% - 66.86%

Offensive Quiver Dance:
252 +1 SpAtk Life Orb CAP2 Hidden Power Fighting vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Honchkrow: 55.13% - 65.1%
252 +1 SpAtk Life Orb CAP2 Energy Ball vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Honchkrow: 47.21% - 55.43%
252 +1 SpAtk Life Orb CAP2 Giga Drain vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Honchkrow: 44.28% - 51.91%
252 +1 SpAtk Life Orb CAP2 Shadow Ball vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Honchkrow: 47.21% - 55.43%

Bulky Quiver Dance:
0 +1 SpAtk Life Orb CAP2 Hidden Power Fighting vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Honchkrow: 32.55% - 38.42%
0 +1 SpAtk Life Orb CAP2 Energy Ball vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Honchkrow: 27.86% - 32.84%
0 +1 SpAtk Life Orb CAP2 Giga Drain vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Honchkrow: 26.1% - 30.79%
0 +1 SpAtk Life Orb CAP2 Shadow Ball vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Honchkrow: 27.86% - 32.84%

All out Attacker (Mixed, 4/252/ Atk/SpAtk):
Fighting type coverage:
-------------------------------
4 Atk Life Orb CAP Hi Jump Kick vs 0 HP/0 Def Honchkrow: 70.38% - 82.99%
4 Atk Life Orb CAP Brick Break vs 0 HP/0 Def Honchkrow: 40.76% - 47.8%
252 SpAtk Life Orb CAP2 Focus Blast vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Honchkrow: 63.05% - 74.19%
252 SpAtk Life Orb CAP Aura Sphere vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Honchkrow: 47.51% - 56.01%
252 SpAtk Life Orb CAP Hidden Power Fighting vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Honchkrow: 36.66% - 43.4%

Fire type coverage:
-------------------------------
4 Atk Life Orb CAP2 V-create vs 0 HP/0 Def Honchkrow: 97.36% - 114.66%
4 Atk Life Orb CAP2 Sacred Fire vs 0 HP/0 Def Honchkrow: 54.25% - 63.93%
252 SpAtk Life Orb CAP2 Blue Flare vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Honchkrow: 68.33% - 80.35%
252 SpAtk Life Orb CAP2 Fire Blast vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Honchkrow: 63.05% - 74.19%
252 SpAtk Life Orb CAP2 Hidden Power Fire vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Honchkrow: 36.66% - 43.4%

Grass StABs
-------------------------------
4 Atk Life Orb CAP2 Power Whip vs 0 HP/0 Def Honchkrow: 48.68% - 57.18%
4 Atk Life Orb CAP2 Leaf Blade vs 0 HP/0 Def Honchkrow: 36.36% - 43.11%
4 Atk Life Orb CAP2 Seed Bomb vs 0 HP/0 Def Honchkrow: 32.55% - 38.12%
252 SpAtk Life Orb CAP2 Leaf Storm vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Honchkrow: 54.84% - 64.81%
252 SpAtk Life Orb CAP2 Seed Flare vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Honchkrow: 47.21% - 55.43%
252 SpAtk Life Orb CAP2 Energy Ball vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Honchkrow: 31.67% - 37.24%
252 SpAtk Life Orb CAP2 Giga Drain vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Honchkrow: 29.62% - 34.9%

Ghost STABs
-------------------------------
4 Atk Life Orb CAP2 Shadow Claw vs 0 HP/0 Def Honchkrow: 28.45% - 33.43%
252 SpAtk Life Orb CAP2 Shadow Ball vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Honchkrow: 31.67% - 37.24%

capefeather · Dec 8, 2011

Let's verify and clarify the facts about Gliscor:

+2 252 Atk CAP 2 Power Whip vs 252/184+ Gliscor: 58.1% - 69.1%
0 Atk Gliscor Ice Fang vs 4/0 CAP 2: 34.3% - 41.2%
+2 252 Atk CAP 2 Power Whip vs 252/184+ Gliscor: 86.4%+
252+ Atk Gliscor Acrobatics vs 4/0 CAP 2: OHKO

I was assuming White Herb Shell Smash here because the Life Orb isn't really needed against Gliscor, as you can see.

I just wanted to clarify this because people were being vague about Gliscor (the same people who for some reason assumed Adaptability against Jirachi and got false OHKOs out of that) and because I wasn't sure at all why someone would pick out a "counter" whose main STAB is resisted by CAP 2. But anyway, Raikaria is right but not for the reason he stated (you can't determine anything from a 2HKO after setup by itself). It's worth noting that CAP 2 can very well lose to AcroBat if it misses that Power Whip. In any case, this is another possible argument against Power Whip down the road, if we intend to make Gliscor a good check.

Rising_Dusk · Dec 8, 2011

EspyOwner said:
I thought the point of having a counters discussion was NOT to have niche counters, like Honchkrow/Mandibuzz/Togekiss/etc.

This is for discussing potential counters that already have a place in OU, or are viable in OU outside of small niches, correct?

Yes, but the thing is, pretty much all of the OU counters we can have or want to have have already been addressed in pretty intense detail. Honchkrow, while cute, is really irrelevant to the discussion because it is not successful at large in OU, and if people are forced to run Honchkrow in response to CAP 2 then there is most definitely a problem with CAP 2. I don't think it will come to that, however.

I do not believe that any of our counters list will be an ideal hard counter to CAP 2. It is practically inevitable since CAP 2 can tailor itself to whatever it wants. CAP 2 can also run an incredibly dangerous Substitute + 3 Attacks set that pretty much beats any of its counters if it packs the appropriate coverage move. More on that later. Despite that, I think CAP 2 can still be beat by these Pokemon, and it will just take some caution in the NAM and AM stages down the road. I personally cannot think of any other solid checks I'd like for CAP 2, as with the ones we've currently listed, so long as we keep them applicable and keep Dragonite as a "check but only if Multiscale is active" we'll be fine.

P.S. Your second Gliscor calc is wrong, cape.

Asylum_Rhapsody · Dec 8, 2011

I just wanted to point out that I brought up Honchkrow not as a serious potential counter but more because I was amused that it has the potential to be a counter to a Pokemon whose design could end up being that of a object generally meant to scare away crows.

Anyway, I'm not sure if this helps, but I haven't seen anyone actually dive into this yet, so I'll try suggesting it anyway:
It seems to me that Sketch really prevents this Pokemon from having any 100% ideal hard counter. That's okay, that is the point of Sketch and this concept. Might it at all help this discussion, though, to take Sketch out of the equation for a moment? Let's maybe list out which Pokemon would be reliable counters to Sketchy and why were it not for it learning Sketch. With this list made, it may then be easier to determine the optimal sorts of moves for Sketchy to deal with each of these counters (or as many of them as possible), and why these moves are perfect for the job. This may be difficult without knowing what moves will be on Sketchy's non-Sketch move list, but it may (1) help us to start think about what moves exactly Sketchy will want or need from Sketch and (2) help us to start seeing the actual effects that Sketch itself has on how Sketchy deals with its possible counters and how much better of a Pokemon that really makes it. In other words, how would this Pokemon do in OU without Sketch, and how might Sketch alter that? That's part of what we want to know from creating this Pokemon, right?
Or is this discussion a premature one not yet knowing what that non-Sketch move list will look like?

Rising_Dusk · Dec 8, 2011

If you think it will help show off new content to the thread, I see no reason to forbid such a discussion. Just remember that any discussion had about CAP 2 as though it didn't have Sketch will likely not be very representative of the real deal. Getting a Speed boost, or an attacking stat boost, or a new coverage move, or a new support move changes a lot about the CAP, especially when that is through such a versatile means as Sketch.

WinstonShnozwick · Dec 8, 2011

Here's my first thoughts on some pokemon against CAP2.

Heatran honestly sounds like it won't be a very good counter for nearly all forms of CAP2 that choose sketch for coverage, due to fighting being one of the top choices, and EQ also being very good.

Jirachi sounds like one of the better counters, unfortunately. (I hate haxrachi) With it's bulk and typing, most sets will be hard pressed to beat jirachi.

Hydriegon scarved or before any speed boosts CAP2 gets is faster and deadly, and has usable bulk as well. If CAP2 has a coverage fighting move, it's slower, and if it uses a boosting move, it has bad coverage to hit hydriegon with. So I think Hydriegon makes a pretty nice counter. Which is a nice thing to see, having a unova pokemon as a counter since they are the new gen.

gonodactylus · Dec 8, 2011

WinstonShnozwick said:
Here's my first thoughts on some pokemon against CAP2.

Heatran honestly sounds like it won't be a very good counter for nearly all forms of CAP2 that choose sketch for coverage, due to fighting being one of the top choices, and EQ also being very good.

Jirachi sounds like one of the better counters, unfortunately. (I hate haxrachi) With it's bulk and typing, most sets will be hard pressed to beat jirachi.

Hydriegon scarved or before any speed boosts CAP2 gets is faster and deadly, and has usable bulk as well. If CAP2 has a coverage fighting move, it's slower, and if it uses a boosting move, it has bad coverage to hit hydriegon with. So I think Hydriegon makes a pretty nice counter. Which is a nice thing to see, having a unova pokemon as a counter since they are the new gen.

I kind of disagree with you. with scizor and ferrothorn and jirachi and skarmory running rampant, i think the sketch move will almost always be a fire move. (scared fire ftw) which will severly damage jirachi, probably burn dragonite (making it useless) and hit skarmory super hard. This means that a pokemon that resists grass-fire-ghost will be top counters)

Such pokemon are...

Heatran and Hydreigon.

Hydreigon isnt really used defensvely, so physically defensive heatran will probably be the best counter to physical sets.

WinstonShnozwick · Dec 8, 2011

I think that Hydriegon will be one of if not the best counters because regardless of sketch being coverage or boosting, hydriegon still is faster or bulkier to take the hits, and can wreck CAP2 with Dark STAB.

I think it's the number of steel types in OU that make CAP2's life so difficult. Heatran cockblocks fire coverage movesets, and ferrothorn/magnezone laugh at bolt strike (which I was thinking of using over sacred fire). Ice would be a nice coverage move personally, because I have a hatred for dragonite and want to be able to screw him up. Also, damned gliscor.

gonodactylus · Dec 8, 2011

Gliscor cant counter CAP 2 effectively if it gets something like power whip, but watever.

You are right about hydreigon, unless CAP 2 receives a coverage move worth using in its natural move pool, something like ice punch or brick break.

WinstonShnozwick · Dec 8, 2011

Actually, if you didn't see the calcs a few posts above, physical def gliscor actually can serve to check CAP2 using physical grass attacks.

CAP 13 CAP 2 - Part 6 - Counters Discussion

Rising_Dusk

Rising_Dusk

verbatim

[PLACEHOLDER]

Deck Knight

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The LoudWendle

capefeather

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Asylum_Rhapsody

Guest

Jebus McAzn

Raikaria

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Gothic Togekiss

capefeather

toot

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