np: RU Stage 4 - Deck the Halls

Status
Not open for further replies.
Oglemi

Oglemi

Zoltraak
is a Forum Moderatoris a Top Contributoris a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Top Community Contributor Alumnusis a Researcher Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnusis a Top Dedicated Tournament Host Alumnus
Happy Holidays everyone! This stage is sure to be an interesting one to say the least. Porygon-Z just saw a 3-4 vote to keep it in the tier, and Honchkrow is going to be an automatic suspect to be voted on at the end of this stage.

So what's going to happen this time around? Will the Trick Room + Endeavor + Hail strategy prove to be too much for the tier to handle, or is the buzz surrounding the strategy only panic? Is Honchkrow still seen as over-powering, or will it finally get the boot out of the tier? And what about the tier shifts? What will RU ever do without Qwilfish?!?!

This stage will end January 16th, at 11:59 p.m. EST at which time the voters will be revealed and the suspects will be determined, with voting taking place on that Friday. The reason for this extended stage is two-fold: the tier shifts are going to happen at the end of December, which will surely shake up the tier to a large extent, and Christmas week is sure to cause a lot of dropped activity, so I want everyone to have some time to enjoy the metagame.

Keep the discussion civil and remember that you can become a member of the (newly expanded) Council by making great posts here, so get cracking!

EDIT: Also! Everyone should come onto IRC and chat it up in #rarelyused to talk all things RU. #rarelyused is where most of the RU community members reside and is the place to be if you're looking to get on the Council for best IRC user (and it is a large influence on the "all around contributor" seats as well). It's a really cool channel with a lot of cool people; Nails, Honko, ShakeItUp, MoltenKyurem, and Texas Cloverleaf (who was on the Council last round for IRC user) are almost constant presences on the channel and are great people to get to know! Everybody there will be willing to help you with your team or any questions you might have so hop on by!
 
I really wish Porygon-Z would get the hell out of RU. However, I personally feel Honchkrow is actually more broken than Porygon-Z since unlike P-Z which can be revenged pretty easily, Honchkrow is a massive pain in the ass to Revenge thanks to Moxie Sucker Punch. Basically if you let Honchkrow get to +1 you're going to lose. Even if you have a Steel-type, Heat Wave makes short work of it. Also that Hail + Endeavour + Trick Room isnt really broken since Entei and Honchkrow can beat most hail teams pretty easily with Priority.
 
Lol I just want to be the first to say, ShakeItUp's team is absolutely ridiculous in RU. I've been using it in both RU and NU (all the mons are NU right now), and I've managed to reach the leaderboard in a matter of minutes (less than ten battles). So yea, my opinion is that the HailRoom + Endeavor strategy is quite 'effective' (I'm hesitant to say broken, since I know it isn't completely undefeatable).

Also if you get rid of priority users beforehand (which really isn't that difficult), hailroom + endeavor reigns supreme.
 
It's time for me to get into RU, and I'm gonna start by abusing Moxie Honchkrow. I'm a little surprised that Porygon-Z wasn't banned, as it could run a good number of sets, from Nasty Plot to Agility to Choice Specs to Choice Scarf. But then again, I know almost nothing about the metagame having played only a few times.
 
It'll never happen, but I just wish that people made some sort of pact not to use... that team. It takes very little skill to use, and I personally find it uncompetitive. You've doomed us all, ShakeItUp. :P
 
I agree with CherubAgent. ShakeItUp's Hail Team is highly uncompetitive. At first, I had no problem with it because Entei just wrecked 2/3 of his team members, but then Slowkin came around. Tbh, it's so simple to counter every major threat in the metagame just by making little tweaks as needed. Playing with the team isn't even fun.
 
barry4ever said:
I really wish Porygon-Z would get the hell out of RU. However, I personally feel Honchkrow is actually more broken than Porygon-Z since unlike P-Z which can be revenged pretty easily, Honchkrow is a massive pain in the ass to Revenge thanks to Moxie Sucker Punch. Basically if you let Honchkrow get to +1 you're going to lose. Even if you have a Steel-type, Heat Wave makes short work of it. Also that Hail + Endeavour + Trick Room isnt really broken since Entei and Honchkrow can beat most hail teams pretty easily with Priority.
Click to expand...
im quite sure moxie isn't legal with heat wave anyway so steels don't really need to fear

unless there's something i'm missing
 
TM13IceBeam said:
im quite sure moxie isn't legal with heat wave anyway so steels don't really need to fear

unless there's something i'm missing
Click to expand...

The combination of Honchkrow and Magneton is actually really good right now. Since the only things that can really stop a Honchkrow sweep are Gligar and Steels, with Magneton the only thing that can stop you is Gligar, which can't really do anything back other than Taunt you or spread status.
 
^Fear the Hidden Power MoxieKrow =3 (it's not very viable. all it's good for is trolling because it's pretty funny when opposing aggron goes down to a random hidden power fighting and is like wtf)

What would I do without Qwilfish =( I've been using that for really long and there will be no replacement whatsoever. Also, it's sad to see krookodile leave. Spinning just got so much harder (unless weavile drops). As for new things likely to be coming in, Sigilyph won't surprise me if people started complaining to get it banned (defensive booster a la Cress, and there was much outcry to ban her) but looking at other things likely to drop, they include Aerodactyl and Weavile, which mauls Sig. Imo Weavile is coming in to wreck the tier, but this is just all theorymon I guess.

ps: My posts recently are really choppy / all over the place / distracted because i've been pretty distracted lately. But i've seen somewhere (I think heysup) that Taunt / Roost on Honchkrow may be better than Sub / Roost, allowing it to completely beat out alomomola and gligar. Steels and rocks are better left to other teammates and spikes. What are people's opinion on that?
 
If you guys want to deal with crow, just run Stunfisk. Seriously, this thing walls every honchkrow variant there is even after a moxie boost and also deals with magnezone well. And also, is it really that hard to run SE or RS on steelix?

Funny how specialy based the tier has become. Almost every team you face is of Honchcrow, Uxie/Qwilfish, Sub rotom/Magneton, 2 other special attackers and entei. Where's the creativity guys???
 
ShakeItUp is obviously a very good player, but obviously RU isn't a great metagame if it's consistently dominated by one team. Rather than pledging not to use it, we ought to look at what parts make it so formidable and which of them hinder the metagame in general [so much though that they could be considered 'broken'.]

I agree with Amarillo on Sigilyph, it can even break OU teams that are unprepared, so I imagine it will be a complete behemoth in RU. There's no Houndoom or CM+Roar Latias to stop it and RU definitely doesn't have as much strong, fast attackers as the higher tiers do, so Perish Song looks like the best option to check it.
 
Ok honchkrow should be banned in imo. I run a heavy offensive team and i'm forced to run Klinklang just for the reason of Honchkrow. It can end sweeps in seconds and then start sweeps of its own. And for all of the people just run Stunfisk, that would mess up mine and probably a lot of peoples teams synergy. I'm Lucky I havent seen any MixKrows else my team would be even more trouble. I shouldn't have to get a pokemon specifically to counter another pokemon. Honchkrow may not be trouble to more stallish teams but to hyper/heavy offensive its the most lethal pokemon in the game and that's why I think it is ban worthy.

Edit:Also I think Snover is ban worthy. As it is the only weather inducer in the meta atm and it can be abused in numerous ways (blizzspam, TR endeavor, stall). If hipopotas was in RU then I wouldn't be so quick to ban Snover but sadly he will stay in uu forever most likely. Sigilyph isn't gonna change TR endeavor because it can easily be killed by Blizzard from Rotom-F.
 
When you put it into perspective, Hail-Endeavour-Room isn't IMPOSSIBLE to stop. I use Prankster PerishKrow because it is generally slow enough to outspeed a sizable amount of Pokemon in TR, won't be doing any damage to boost Endeavour's power through the roof quickly, doesn't mind Hail because of Roost, and can Perish-Trap just about anything in or out of Trick Room because of priority.

And another beef i have with the potential ban is that, wouldn't it count as that one thing Smogon is trying NOT to ban? uh...whats the term...oh yeah, a Complicated Ban? Just my own opinion here.
 
Double01 said:
Ok honchkrow should be banned in imo. I run a heavy offensive team and i'm forced to run Klinklang just for the reason of Honchkrow. It can end sweeps in seconds and then start sweeps of its own. And for all of the people just run Stunfisk, that would mess up mine and probably a lot of peoples teams synergy. I'm Lucky I havent seen any MixKrows else my team would be even more trouble. I shouldn't have to get a pokemon specifically to counter another pokemon. Honchkrow may not be trouble to more stallish teams but to hyper/heavy offensive its the most lethal pokemon in the game and that's why I think it is ban worthy.
Click to expand...


Stunfisk isnt a pokemon you just throw onto a team, in a way it could be compared to porygon2, it gives your team support against various threats in the metagame, but it cant check them all at the same time, imo Honchkrow is not overpowering in the tier, I peaked at #1 for about a week last round using a Stunfisk/Poliwrath/Bouffalant core. Stunfisk could easily check Honchkrow and the scarf varient of porygon-z, allowing me to switch in a resist to pory's chosen move. Poliwrath trolled sharpedo and to an extent krookodile hard, while Sub+3 attacks bouffalant took on the dancing queen lilligant. i also saw a core on the ladder of stunfisk, hariyama, druddigon. with a large amount of hazards, it was very frustrating to fight. Klinklang is a viable pokemon in its own right as well as stunfisk, if you feel the need to use them you should use them. I will admit that Mixkrow is slightly harder to beat than moxiekrow. but even then it still has checks such as hitmonchan and wisp rotom. Honchkrow is really beaten by anything faster that has substitute/resists sucker punch. i dont really see a reason for it to get the boot.

in other news, if anything should be banned i think it is snover, the amount of support it gives to other pokemon is ridiculous. and with a base 120 power 100 % accurate move along with hail damage, it doesnt exactly hit like a little girl either. i have been using a hail team on the ladder with a focus sash snover lead and it is pretty effective in its own right, as is subseed. Ice STAB is fairly deadly in this metagame. especially with things such as swellow and Honchkrow running around. if the fact that snover has poor stats amuses you, the amount of goons like glaceon, rotom-f, and even the mighty walrein it has to back it up will turn that smile upside down. as most teams cannot stand up to repeated blizzards from either snover or up to 5 OTHER POKEMON. Then there is THAT team, if anything shows how much devastation snover can cause, its that, self explanatory.

Also, outside of the trick room endeavor team why is Duosion often ignored? its pretty bulky with an eviolite, has Calm Mind and access to recover, as well as being able to take a crunch from krook. it has Magic guard. and is able to abuse trick room effectively. why isnt it used more? it can take on krook with an hp fighting to the face. its not just the hail that makes duosion deadly, duosion it self is a good and versatile pokemon.

Honchkrow may not be trouble to more stallish teams but to hyper/heavy offensive its the most lethal pokemon in the game and that's why I think it is ban worthy.

^This is a valid argument, but has some flaws, this would imply that all stallbreakers are broken because they give stall teams trouble (something duosion does well, while also threatening offensive teams with trick room or if it can set up.) also, in my experience a lot of teams run a sub+3 attacks pokemon or subsplit rotom on offense, honchkrow has a lot of trouble with pokemon that are faster than it and have substitute right? well if you have one of those honchkrow will be forced to brave bird you, and suffer from recoil. eventually killing itself.

after the tier shifts, things like sigilyph and golurk might be moving down, as aerodactyl and nidoqueen might also as well. sigilyph i see to be a big threat in the upcoming tiers in a similar way to duosion and musharna. with cosmic power and stored power, and with psych shift to burn dark types it is sure to be a huge threat if it moves down. Golurk could work as an excellent subpuncher, it has all the correct tools to be one (decent defenses, iron fist, perfect coverage) and is sure to be interesting in RU, especially if honchkrow DOES get banned. Nidoqueen and aerodactyl will be excellent supporters if they move down, i am slightly concerned about aerodactyl though, it can easily set up steath rock and prevent the opponent from setting up their own. like deoxys-s who was banned from standard OU, with hone claws and base 130 speed imo it will surely make a huge impact on the metagame.

all in all, on the new year RU seems like it will change a lot, i cant wait to see what happens :D
 
Aerodactyl will become an elite threat in RU tier sadly. I don't imagine it staying very long in the tier though since it has many different sets such as CB, 4 atk set, SR set and hone claws set. With that amount of diversity it will be pretty tough to counter especially with qwilfish going to uu. If more people happen to use a mix krow set there won't be a doubt in my mind that it will be banned. Moxiekrow can beat sub split rotom but it is very unfavorable for the Krow. Since at some point Rotom will have to attack and if Honchkrow decides to sucker punch on that attack Rotom is dead and Honchkrow can start sweepin. Again though this is very unfavorable for honchkrow. Klinklang is a hard counter to moxiekrow but is susceptible to to mixkrow.
 
Boingo said:
I don't continuously follow this thread, so what's all the ruckus about "ShakeItUp's team" about?
Click to expand...

Little Snow tree, solosis and duoson with TR and I forget the rest. But the team is designed to totally stall you out. A hand written pact sounds about right, too.
 
Death12's team doesn't stall you out...... It's an offensive team that aims to end the match in under 20 turns.
 
I'm going to throw down this partial irc log with discussion on Honchkrow, unfortunately I didnt think of this soon enough so its not all there but theree should be enough to show some arguments and stuff.

(Starts with a discussion on steelix countering it, as well as a discussion on rhydon and aggron, and a note that 3% of honchkrows used Heat Wave, 13* used Hidden power and 17% used Superpower. When this months stats appear I would expect HP to rise to 17-20% and Superpower to drop to 10ish%)

13:46 MoltenKyurem !
13:46 Texas plus Steelix is setting rocks
13:47 Texas meaning Krow cant switch in easily anymore
13:47 DTC well steelix can roar krow away
13:47 MoltenKyurem 85/85/91
13:47 MoltenKyurem its faster than honch
13:47 MoltenKyurem and can brave bird things in different speed ranges
13:47 DTC most of Rhydon's checks are pretty bad in the current meta
13:47 DTC Honchkrow's*
13:47 MoltenKyurem apparetnly it was pretty decent
13:47 MoltenKyurem >aggron and stunfisk
13:47 DTC Steelix has to be very careful
13:47 MoltenKyurem >bad
13:47 *** GoldGeno joined #rarelyused
13:47 MoltenKyurem pick one
13:47 DTC since a lot of things hurt it
13:47 DTC *most*
13:48 DTC stunfisk is alright
13:48 Texas oh yeah, we cant forget that stunfisk also hard counters it
13:48 Texas I think HP Grass is a 4HKO, right Molk?
13:48 GoldGeno sup all
13:48 DTC just because something has hard counters doesn't mean it's not broken
13:48 MoltenKyurem hp grass is a 3-4hko
13:48 GoldGeno which Pokemon are we talking about here? just got in
13:48 Texas it means that if you arent using on of its counters or having another strategy to beat it, like extremespeed, paralysis etc, you arent trying
13:48 DTC Honchkrow
13:49 MoltenKyurem dont forget klinklang
13:49 GoldGeno ah, Mr.Moxie
13:49 Texas hell slowking can check it if their in at the same time
13:49 Texas paralyze it on the Brave Bird
13:49 DTC no
13:49 DTC just no
13:49 Texas not its fucked
13:49 DTC subsitute
13:49 Texas *now
13:49 DTC then sucker punch
13:49 Texas ik, but thats not the point
13:49 MoltenKyurem imo honch isnt even greaT
13:49 DTC at least mention like Omastar
13:50 MoltenKyurem stunfisk is the bet counter
13:50 DTC Honch is amazing =/
13:50 MoltenKyurem it is
13:50 GoldGeno i agree
13:50 MoltenKyurem but its not suspect worth
13:50 DTC you just said it wasen't great
13:50 Texas yes but *it* *is* *beatable*
13:50 DTC everything in the entire game is beatable
13:50 Texas and not with some huge difficulty
13:50 GoldGeno I personally use Murkrow for stopping Honch in its traps
13:50 Texas seriosuly, it isnt strong enough to force you to change the fabric of your team to beat it
13:50 GoldGeno Priority Featherdance to get rid of its boosts,then perish-trap it
13:50 MoltenKyurem mixed murkow
13:50 DTC it kind of is
13:51 MoltenKyurem !
13:51 Texas encore the fucking substitute, what is it doing now
13:51 DTC offense teams have to carry one of its checks
13:51 GoldGeno i like PranksterKrow, its fun as all hell to use
13:51 Texas use a entei
13:51 Texas gg Korw
13:51 DTC Brave Bird on the switch?
13:51 Texas use omasgtar
13:51 Texas same thing
13:51 DTC Sub on something you force out
13:51 DTC Brave Bird
13:51 MoltenKyurem hitmknchan can revenge it
13:51 Texas hitmonlee beats krow
13:51 Texas Close Combat
13:51 MoltenKyurem or mach punch
13:51 MoltenKyurem !
13:51 DTC lets look at how Honchkrow does against every Pokemon in RU
13:52 DTC (that's used sometimes)
13:52 Texas assuming that Krow is always going to be in for free every match is not an argument that I find acceptable
13:52 Texas thats bullshit arguing
13:52 MoltenKyurem honchkrow is a sweeper
13:52 Texas Victreebel 1 or 2HKOs the entire game
13:52 Texas broken
13:52 Texas \but wait
13:52 MoltenKyurem sweepers kill stuff
13:52 Texas how can it get in
13:52 DTC it isn't, but there probably is at least one thing on each team that Honchkrow scares off
13:52 Texas oh yeah\
13:52 Texas it cant
13:52 GoldGeno Victreebell has a Honchkrow weakness
13:52 DTC either with the threat of sucker punch
13:52 MoltenKyurem does that mean all sweepers are broken
13:52 MoltenKyurem ?
13:52 Texas on stall thats irrelevant
13:52 DTC killing it when weakened
13:52 Texas and offense
13:52 GoldGeno Brave Bird and the random Heat Wave
13:52 Texas you either compensate for that weakness
13:53 Texas or dont run honch weak pokemon
13:53 Texas sounds familiar to dragonite
13:53 Texas also goldgeno
13:53 MoltenKyurem honchkrow is a sweeper
13:53 Texas heat wave is used on 3% of honchkrow
13:53 MoltenKyurem sweepers kill stuff
13:53 MoltenKyurem does that mean all sweepers are broken
13:53 MoltenKyurem ?
13:53 DTC no
13:53 DTC that's not even the point I'm trying to make lmao
13:53 MoltenKyurem my point exactly
13:53 DTC where did you get that from?
13:54 DTC anyways, I'm looking at everything Honchkrow can set up on in RU
13:54 MoltenKyurem honchkrow imo is just an average swwper
13:54 DTC why do you think that?
13:54 GoldGeno just bringing it up in response to Victreebel.I personally wouldn't use Heat Wave
13:54 MoltenKyurem its slow
13:54 MoltenKyurem for example
13:54 GoldGeno heck,i dont even use Honchkrow. too slow for my tastes
13:54 MoltenKyurem krook and hitmonchan check it
13:54 Texas i will reiterate
13:54 Texas if your using stall
13:54 Texas you will have one of its counters
13:54 Texas otherwise your retarded
13:55 Texas the same as having a terrakion counter in OU
13:55 MoltenKyurem hell qwilfish
13:55 Zebraiken except terrakion hardly has any counters
13:55 MoltenKyurem say honch has priority
13:55 MoltenKyurem so does hitmonchan
13:55 Texas fine, a dragonite counter
13:55 MoltenKyurem is it broken
13:55 MoltenKyurem ?
13:55 MoltenKyurem entei does too
13:55 Texas no one is saying that honchkrow isnt a top threat
13:55 GoldGeno but you can only get Honch's priority if you attack it with a damaging move though. at least, thats what i remember
13:55 MoltenKyurem ban every sweeper with priority!
13:56 Texas but it is beatable without too much costernation
13:56 MoltenKyurem thats what you are saying by ban honchkrow
13:56 Texas look at the ladder
13:56 MoltenKyurem like really
13:56 MoltenKyurem xD
13:56 DTC You obviously aren't getting my point, MK
13:56 Texas everyonr there is prepared for Krow
13:56 DTC Let me argue with Texas
13:56 Texas in vastly different ways
13:56 Texas you see so many different strategies
13:56 MoltenKyurem well then whats your argument
13:56 MoltenKyurem ?
13:56 MoltenKyurem xD
13:56 Texas and few people even use the hard counters I listed
13:56 GoldGeno your arguing with a State
13:56 GoldGeno nice
13:57 Texas I remember one person using Rhydon
13:57 DTC yes goldgeno
13:57 Texas I used Steelix
13:57 DTC I like arguing with states
13:57 MoltenKyurem ehpraim
13:57 GoldGeno Must be fun
13:57 Texas no one else used the hard counters
13:57 Texas but if they were weak to krow
13:57 MoltenKyurem me with stunfisk
13:57 Texas they had another way of dealing with it
13:57 MoltenKyurem ?
13:57 Texas molk with stukfisk
13:57 *** ala quit (Ping timeout)
13:57 Texas there are many ways to beat Krow
13:57 Texas without compromising your team
13:58 MoltenKyurem sure
13:58 Texas all you have to know
13:58 DTC list all of them
13:58 Texas is how its vulnerable
13:58 MoltenKyurem krow is hard to beat after aboost
13:58 Texas no
13:58 Texas there are too many for me to tae that time
13:58 MoltenKyurem hitmonchan
13:58 MoltenKyurem subwisp rotom
13:58 Texas I'd still be here an hour from knjow when i have to go to work
13:58 DTC hitmonchan is a bad check
13:58 DTC lol
13:58 MoltenKyurem it still works
13:58 MoltenKyurem faster
13:58 Texas hitmonlee isnt
13:58 MoltenKyurem resists SP
13:58 DTC if its weakened enough it dies by sucker punch
13:58 Texas faster, CC, dead
13:58 DTC so as hitmonlee
13:58 DTC they are frail as heck
13:59 Texas youd be surprised
13:59 GoldGeno one thing to note, you can work around Honch if you avoid setting off Sucker Punch. Wisp or T-wave it with something that can outspeed or take a hit (doesn't even need to take it like a boss, as long as it lives it can do the job)
13:59 MoltenKyurem 50/79 can take a SP
13:59 Texas besides
13:59 DTC and they have to avoid brave bird
13:59 Texas at full health
13:59 Texas literally every player
13:59 Texas went for a BB
13:59 Texas and got OHKOd by CC
13:59 Texas literally every player
13:59 DTC well yeah, I'm talking about when they are weakened enough
13:59 Texas and on that team
13:59 Texas Lee was the only thing they could easily come into
13:59 Texas err
13:59 Texas remove easily
13:59 Texas oh
13:59 Texas and I should meantio n
13:59 Texas thats LO Lee
14:00 Texas so its weakens itself
14:00 Texas its not as frail
14:00 Texas as most people think
14:00 Texas not when it resists
14:00 Texas what is still
14:00 Texas only an 80 BP attack
14:00 MoltenKyurem hitmon chan has ice punch
14:00 MoltenKyurem and mach punch to bypass Sp
 
I don't really think that Porygon-Z should be banned. Yes the Agility and Scarf sets are hard to counter, but with all the Fighting types running rampant with their vicious Mach Punches, Porygon-Z doesn't stand a chance with those meager defenses.

I'm on the fence about Honchkrow. It's MoxieKrow set is very dangerous and very difficult to counter. That part makes me believe it's broken. But a closer inspection of the set makes me see that it is difficult to set up, due to Honchkrow's pathetic defenses and low speed. If push came to shove however, I would vote for Ban, merely because it's so difficult to stop.
 
Steamroll said:
Little Snow tree, solosis and duoson with TR and I forget the rest. But the team is designed to totally stall you out. A hand written pact sounds about right, too.
Click to expand...
xD
that's the opposite of what my team's supposed to do. It's supposed to win in about 15 turns or so.
Also, I'm glad that P-Z didn't get banned. It really isn't that difficult to revenge kill and such, especially with all the priority moves that RU has.
 
The meta is going to change quite a bit...Qwilfish and Krookodile leaving means that one awesome spiker and physical wall and one amazing cleaner and revenge killer are gone.
The metagame is already becoming more Specially based and i expect it to become even more.Everyone will be running Porygon-Z and Sigilyph is another specially based threat that everyone should prepare for.
 
Well I can see Aerodactyl being on 10 ten pokes used and that will be one the best physical presences in the game. If snover gets banned this round (which i'm hoping) then I can see sunny day teams becoming more popular since of the mass amount of fire types and chlorophyl users in the ru and nu tiers.
 
i think ludicolo should go. it can set up a rain dance and wreck for the next few turns with it's rain/LO set. and it's nonetheless very good in uu as well.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top