Cresselia suspect discussion (See post #45)

[Nails]

Back in the early days of RU, Cresselia was the giant floating space duck in the room. It was kept in check by Yanmega and Venomoth but was still one of the top pokemon in the metagame. However it jumped up to UU before we could vote on it, and now it's joined us again.

This thread is for discussion of Cresselia as a suspect. Keep it civil and back up your points with reasoning (damage calcs etc). Posts without reasoning will be deleted.

We are considering a quickban, so discuss that as well.

[Molk]

to defeat opposing cresselia, i had to run crotomb, or my own cresselia, with psyshock. I had to run both or one with psyshock would fuck me over.(see what i did there) please get it quickbanned, like, NOW that is all, except this calc

(43.92% - 51.58%)

^that is CB druddigon's Outrage vs cress

[sheniqua]

I know that Cresselia has been a huge threat in the past, and I'm sure it will be one of the top threats in RU this time as well. However, I think that we should at least test it and see how it does so we can make a fully informed decision.

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Originally Posted by Fat MoltenKyurem

to defeat opposing cresselia, i had to run crotomb, or my own cresselia, with psyshock. I had to run both or one with psyshock would fuck me over.(see what i did there) please get it quickbanned, like, NOW that is all, except this calc

(43.92% - 51.58%)

^that is CB druddigon's Outrage vs cress

I run both

[Molk]

Originally Posted by Fat Texas Cloverleaf

I run both

so do i texas, i have/need 2-3 counters to it to get a confortable win, btw that calc is for max defense cress, it still survives it without the investment.

something as bulky as throh UNINVESTED ON BOTH SIDES with calm mind, good speed, reliable recovery, and sub to absorb priority get that shit banned

[Avira]

Cresselia should stay for the whole testing period in my opinion. It is not so strong that the amount of checks can be counted on your hands like in Kyurem's case, and even that was not up for a quick ban. Yes, I realize that different people were in charge of the respective tiers, but I do not believe that Cresselia is so overpowering to the point of needing a quick ban.

[Molk]

cresselia was overpowering during early RU when checks to it existed such as yanmega and venomoth, not to mention haze blastoise.

@avira iirc you happen to run multiple checks to it as well, haze cofag and whirlwind/taunt mandibuzz

[zdrup15]

We've discussed this in IRC and there was a consensus between everyone speaking there but I'll post my thoughts here as well.

Everyone who played RU when Cresselia was still here knows that that metagame was completely dominated by the two Bug-types. They ruled the tier and were by far the most dangerous threats. However, I'm sure everyone agrees that, even though these Bug-types could destroy it, Cresselia was still a top support Pokemon. It could set up Dual Screens like nothing else. But that's not it! It could easily sweep thanks to Calm Mind and Substitute, even having Moonlight to make it harder!

You're probably saying, "yeah the metagame changed, just because it was so good back then it doesn't mean it will be that good now" and I admit you're right. It's even better! The Bug-types are gone, residual damage from weather is gone, and the main trapper just moved to a different tier! As if this wasn't enough, Cresselia is basically an updated version of our beloved pixie, Uxie. And Uxie is #2 on December's usage stats!

To summarize it, we know Cresselia was great, we know its main problems back then are over, and we've been using a worse version and know how great it is. So why should we wait to solve this problem? I support a quick ban

[Avira]

Originally Posted by Fat MoltenKyurem

@avira iirc you happen to run multiple checks to it as well, haze cofag and whirlwind/taunt mandibuzz

Although that is true, I used them before Cresselia dropped back down, and not as result of Cresselia forcing me to use them.

I still think that quick bans should be reserved for Pokemon that are extremely powerful (With respect to the tier) that have very few answers like Kyurem in UU or if Mewtwo dropped down for suspect testing in OU.

[sheniqua]

Even though there aren't the two bugs anymore, there is now Sigilyph and Spiritomb, both of whom beat Cresselia.

[kniteowl]

Originally Posted by Fat zdrup15

Everyone who played RU when Cresselia was still here knows that that metagame was completely dominated by the two Bug-types. They ruled the tier and were by far the most dangerous threats. However, I'm sure everyone agrees that, even though these Bug-types could destroy it, Cresselia was still a top support Pokemon. It could set up Stealth Rock and Dual Screens like nothing else. But that's not it! It could easily sweep thanks to Calm Mind and Substitute, even having Moonlight to make it harder!

Just pointing out that Cressilia doesn't have stealth rock.

even though Wobbuffet is banned from RU you can still Trap Cressilia with Wynaut, and tickle it to death (ie -6 Def) then switch in a Dark type like honchkrow and pursuit it.

Except for Substitute sets in which case you can encore it.

Although I do agree that Cressilia is just way too bulky to take down and needs to be banned. I'm not good with numbers but how many pokemon in the tier can 2hko Cressilia anyway?

[kd24]

It could set up Stealth Rock and Dual Screens like nothing else.

cresselia cant set up stealth rock, other than that wouldnt it be better to playtest with it first for like a week :o..a lot of dark-types with a sub or even anything that can sub really hurts it, and its more toxic bait/set up bait to things like ferroseed because of how rarely used rest is...sub cm is annoying tho so yeah (also yeah, tomb and siggy beat it more confidently than the 2 bugs did, as they couldnt switch into psychic/ice beam!)

[Double01]

I don't if should be quick banned just because i haven't had too much trouble with it but a cm cresselia is still extremely deadly.

Some Calcs:
CB Sharpedo Adamant 252 Attack Crunch does not even ohko 252 hp 0 Def Cresselia (78.4% - 92.3%)

CB Absol does (72.1% - 85.6%) To the same Cress as above

NP Porygon-Z at +2 does not ohko 252 hp 0 Sp Def (83.8% - 98.6%)

Im just showing how bulky Cress is and with a few CM Cress can be nearly impossible to takedow.

Cress maybe quick ban worth I'm just not sure. You guys can decide :)

[zdrup15]

sorry, got caught up in the momentum, everything else is true and I'd like if people could base their posts in the good amount of relevant and correct information I've posted

[Amire]

I vote for quick ban as well. Yes, cress has two pretty reliable checks (drapion/rest talk CM spiritomb), but cresselia is one of bulkiest pokes out there and that combined with a reliable recovery move, levitate, alright speed, calm mind and good coveredge is just waaayy too much for the metagame. Yanmega/venomoth didn't stop cresselia for being broken back in the first rounds, neither does Drapion and spiritomb at the moment.

[Cherub Agent]

Originally Posted by Fat Amire

I vote for quick ban as well. Yes, cress has two pretty reliable checks (drapion/rest talk CM spiritomb), but cresselia is one of bulkiest pokes out there and that combined with a reliable recovery move, levitate, alright speed, calm mind and good coveredge is just waaayy too much for the metagame. Yanmega/venomoth didn't stop cresselia for being broken back in the first rounds, neither does Drapion and spiritomb at the moment.

Basically this. I support a quick ban. Cress is sadly just too much for the tier to handle. If it was broken WITH the bugs, Krookodile, etc., it's nigh unstoppable. Broken mons always have checks, which here are Drapion and Spiritomb, but they're nowhere near effective enough.

[Avira]

Your post is really hard to understand and you are exaggerating too much. Although you do make a legitimate point about how a Cresselia attempting a sweep does have coverage issues. SubCMCresselia won't be sweeping unless it removes all its checks since it only has two coverage moves and a movepool that isn't stellar to begin with, and yes, I do know that this applies to more Pokemon than Cresselia, but because Cresselia doesn't sweep with a very high degree of ease, I do not think that it should be banned immediately through a quick ban.

[skymastergamerpt]

I recently made a RU team of my own based on Cresselia so gonna do some tests and then tell you guys also if anyone wants to chellange me on RU for testing Cresselia go right ahead.

[Tobes]

Just so nobody gets the wrong idea there was a deleted post Malvira was responding to.

[Sabinfrost]

Based on experience facing Cress in the past it's going to be one of those Pokemon that require teams to be built specifically to check, and unlike some more gimmicky threats, Cresselia is versatile enough to cause a huge headache for any team.

As has already been pointed out, it went UU back when we had Venomoth and Yanmega.

Currently we lack Krookadile and don't even have Sableye to Taunt utility sets.

The main checks to Cresselia all exist in UU, the powerful physical bug types like Herracross and Escavalier and the hugely powerful Ghost sweepers/revenge killers in Mismagius and Chandelure. Even then, Cresselia is bulky enough to be hugely threatening, especially after a boost or two.

Drapion alone and the recently dropped Spiritomb are not enough to keep Cresselia in check.

[No Luck Involved]

I absolutely do not believe Cresselia deserves to be quick-banned. It is very bulky but it is lacking in attacking power and it's threat comes only after it has managed to get a couple of CMs. It suffers severely from 4 move syndrome, it will always have to sacrifice coverage for status protection or healing and its low initial power makes it easily phazed. It has got a bad STAB type that suffers less than perfect coverage.

Its main threat for me comes from its defensive reliability, to be able to almost guarantee screens is a huge factor in a battle. However, even in this regard it suffers compared to Uxie from lack of U-turn (to get a recipient in safely) and Healing Wish is a double-edged sword. Their bulk and speed for all intents and purposes is very similar so the only real advantage Cresselia has is access to Moonlight.

Cress is a dangerous threat if a team comes unprepared, the same situation for any big threat such as Honchkrow, Gallade, Moltres... Its low initial power, severe lack of coverage and 4 move syndrome mean that no matter what variant you face, it will always have at least one weakness. Usually it is a pretty generic, common weakness too: Phazing, Toxic, resisting its STAB and coverage (which is surprisingly easy), Taunt + stall, Perish Song, Unaware or just good old setting up alongside it - any well organised team will have at least a couple of these strategies to deal with it and keep the flow of the battle in their favour. Getting more than 100% in a damage calculator is not the only solution!

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Originally Posted by Fat No Luck Involved

Cress is a dangerous threat if a team comes unprepared

Okay i buy that.

But you're not recognizing the fact that you have to over prepare and over centralise to beat it. If you arent hitting super effectively you cannot do 40% to a defensive cresselia, its fucking bulky. Is it any wonder half the ladder right now is Dark-type? Its necessary to kill the fucking duck.

[Sabinfrost]

Originally Posted by Fat No Luck Involved

I absolutely do not believe Cresselia deserves to be quick-banned. It is very bulky but it is lacking in attacking power and it's threat comes only after it has managed to get a couple of CMs. It suffers severely from 4 move syndrome, it will always have to sacrifice coverage for status protection or healing and its low initial power makes it easily phazed. It has got a bad STAB type that suffers less than perfect coverage.

Its main threat for me comes from its defensive reliability, to be able to almost guarantee screens is a huge factor in a battle. However, even in this regard it suffers compared to Uxie from lack of U-turn (to get a recipient in safely) and Healing Wish is a double-edged sword. Their bulk and speed for all intents and purposes is very similar so the only real advantage Cresselia has is access to Moonlight.

Cress is a dangerous threat if a team comes unprepared, the same situation for any big threat such as Honchkrow, Gallade, Moltres... Its low initial power, severe lack of coverage and 4 move syndrome mean that no matter what variant you face, it will always have at least one weakness. Usually it is a pretty generic, common weakness too: Phazing, Toxic, resisting its STAB and coverage (which is surprisingly easy), Taunt + stall, Perish Song, Unaware or just good old setting up alongside it - any well organised team will have at least a couple of these strategies to deal with it and keep the flow of the battle in their favour. Getting more than 100% in a damage calculator is not the only solution in Pokemon!

Cress sets up CMs easier than possibly any other Pokemon thanks to an average/above average speed for the tier, massive bulk which lets it take hits without investment (or easily with investment) and Psychic is a decent STAB in Gen 5 as it can be physical or special.

Uxie is comparable to Cress, but has drastically less health and it's that massive health in combination with leftovers and Moonlight which makes Cress such a hard Pokemon to counter. Behind screens you simply will not kill it. Uxie is one of the top used Pokemon in the tier, it does it's job fine, Cress makes Uxie obsolete.

The one thing that has crippled Cress in the past is weather as it hurts it's recovery, there are no permanent weather starters in the tier anymore.

[Amarillo]

Oh god, I usually don't like bans but Cresselia is definitely ban-worthy. There's really a HUGE influx of dark types to the point that most teams start falling off with a combination along the lines of Cresselia + Fighting-type. Yeah, I know you're thinking "Cresselia and Fighters are checked by Spiritomb alone!" But Spiritomb cannot beat Cresselia 1 vs 1 unless it runs RestTalk Calm Mind. And those need Dark Pulse because mono-attackers with immunities just doesn't work. What does that mean? Substituting Fighters, or foresight Hitmons, idk, are more than enough to just wreck most Cresselia counters. Now, yes, do remember that there are 4 more teamslots left to support your Cresselia!

Oh, then there's the factor that Psychic + Dark + Fighting cores are not very fun to play with, but I don't think that's a good argument.

Yes, Roar can phaze away Cresselia, but this is only a temporary measure. Cresselia will pop right back, wall an attacker and proceed to set up yet again. However, it's not completely the end of the world for Cresselia. I agree that there are multiple non-Dark checks and counters to SubCM Cresselia as a sweeper: Munchlax, Quagsire, Mandibuzz, Perish Song Missy, Aggron, bulky Klinklang, Haze Cryogonal, bulky SD Roost Scyther etc. I remember when Cresselia was around, people were coming up with non-Drapion counters more often than not. (Yeah you could say that's only because all Cress teams had a solid Drapion counter but that's besides the point.) Well, I don't really like any of Munch, Quag, and Mandibuzz, but it's not like stall's any viable here now, is it... IMO Cress should be voted + banned, unless people think that's a serious waste of a time. I mean, can we see a more developed meta where not everyone spams CM Spiritomb, and then ban it?

[Raseri]

I agree that Cress is broken, ive been running a mono attacker set with Sub/CM/Psychic/Moonlight. Once dark types are removed it sweeps every time. It also appreciates Sigliyph as a sweeping partner, which just makes it more broken imo. Sigilyph can remove dark types and then Cress can smash through any team.

I definitely support a quick ban of Cress because its just to bulky and powerful for the tier, it forces the entire metagame to revolve it at an unacceptable rate