NU Stage 5 - Suspect Discussion

[Zebraiken*]

Hey there.

This thread's primary purpose to discuss the potential suspects of this round. Everyone is welcome to participate in discussion and bring up potential suspects, as well as debate whether or not they are broken. Senate members and rotating council members are expected to post and participate etc. There will be no specific threads like last time, so please make sure to make your opinions known in this thread. Examples of things that should be talked about in this thread: your experience with said threat (using it and facing it), what beats said threat, your opinion of its effect on the metagame (whether positive or negative), etc.

This thread will be closed in a few days or when the discussion dies down, whichever happens first. At that point in time, the NU Senate will decide what will be voted on and votes will be sent via PM to myself. Just because something is talked about in this thread does not mean it will be voted on. Remember, you are trying to convince the council members with your posts. Keep it civil!

Merry discussing. :)

[FLCL]

keiran sucks

To be honest I don't think anything is overcentralizing in this metagame and deserves to be banned. Even with the popularity of Amoonguss and Alomomola, I am still having huge amounts of success by running sweepers such as Swords Dance Samruott or Gurdurr on my teams. They're easily set up on by things such as Substitute + Calm Mind Gardevoir and Swords Dance Lickilicky. Amoonguss is an effective counter to a lot of physical Pokemon in the tier, but it's no different than Tangela in my opinion. Both have access to a sleep inducing move, Synthesis, and Regenerator. Tangela has the advantage of being able to use Leech Seed as well. Nobody complained about suspecting Tangela, so Amoonguss shouldn't be any different. Alomomola still suffers the same problem it had before; it can't hit hard enough. Most Substitute users go to town on it and Regenerator doesn't really help its case.

Cinccino and Zangoose may be hard to tank and switch into, but they're by no means unbeatable. Their attacks are extremely predicable and any decent balanced team should be able to switch into them if you can guess which attack they're going to use. Offensive teams usually have multiple ways of revenge-killing Zangoose and Cinccino. Golurk is on the same boat as these Pokemon, maybe even more dangerous since it has Pokemon it forces out one hundred percent, such as Lickilicky, Miltank, or Probopass, meaning it is almost guaranteed to nail your switch-in with a powerful Drain Punch or Ice Punch. However, it is easily beaten by anything faster with a super effective attack. On top of that, it can be easily trapped by either Skuntank or Absol; even bulkier sets take over eighty percent from Leftovers Skuntank.

These five Pokemon are probably the most centralizing threats in the tier, and they can all be dealt with if your team is decent. As for Emboar, which we discussed on IRC, if it deserved to be banned then people would've started talking about banning it earlier. Its effectiveness is highly dependent on the user's skill level, and even then, it has trouble breaking through one of the most common walls in Alomomola. No other Pokemon has really stood out this round, with the exception of Swoobat. I haven't been exposed to Swoobat enough to say if it's broken or not, but it has been a huge pain to deal with every time I've faced it. Perhaps someone else could provide some input on Swoobat?

[Ewil]

I'll start talking about Amoonguss. He have a lot of utilities for this meta.
The first that you can think can be his new ability "Regenerator".
Regenerator is a good defensive ability and pokemons like Alomomola and Audino can use it without being broken, but Amoonguss has the ability to pratically eliminate an opposing mon via the 100% sleep status in Spore and switch out healing himself and bring in another mon while the opponent stay in to sleep or switch out too. Grass/Poison is a real good defensive typing and Amoonguss stats let him being a special, a physical or a mixed wall.
Giga Drain lets Amoonguss sucks HP to the opponent making the big murshrooms even sturdier.
Substitute is not a move to understimate on Amoonguss since with it he can be very annoying.
If not running Substitute he can runs the second STAB in Sludge Bomb and HP Ice to get rid of a lot of things like Altaria.
Last but not the least, his Poison Type absorbs T-spikes and gives to Amoongus the immunity to Toxic, the most debilitating status for a wall.

Cinccino and Zangoose are other two pokemons that you can be worry of, but i think that are pretty manageble with a good physical wall or a pokemon with good typing.
Maybe Zangoose is the most suspectable of the two with the fact that even Alomomola has an hard times playing against him.

For now, i only see this pokemons being suspect-worthy, but i'm curios of yours opinion about them :D

[MMF]

Alright so I'm just gonna go in a list and tell you guys what I think about each "potential suspect".

#1 Cinccino: BAN IT. No I'm just kidding. Honestly I've found Cinccino kinda underwhelming lately. Its very frail and hazards and LO recoil start really taking its toll. Not to mention every form of priority(bar Shadow Sneak) does 40% and up and if you aren't running some form of priority right now, you're doing something wrong. Also its not too hard to predict what move Cinccino will do and most teams by now should have a reliable check to Cinccino.

#2 Zangoose: Its kinda in the same boat as Cinccino but slower and stronger. The thing is with Zangoose is that its on a clock with poison damage slowly draining its health so as long as you switch smart and have resists to his attacking types(which isn't too hard as most people have a normal resist/immunity as is) you can take down a good portion of his HP. Secondly Zangoose is also vulnerable to priority,granted it can bypass Sucker Punch with Quick Attack but it can be hit very hard by Mach Punch and opposing Quick Attacks. To me Zangoose is like our Terrakion. It hits like a train but can be beaten if you play smart and have a solid team. But that also means that if you let your checks die, you'll be swept. Thats why you have to play smart against Zangoose users.

#3 Amoonguss/Alomomola: FLCL really said what I would've liked to say about the two. While they are annoying and hard to break through, there are multiple ways to beat them. Most SubCM users break apart the core such as Gardevoir, Misdreavus(SubNP), etc. Things like SD Zangoose and Mixed Emboar also completely obliterate that core. So basically refer to FLCL's post for more information.

#4 Golurk: Man Golurk is just stupidly strong but that comes with a price. Its also incredibly slow which really hinders its effectiveness. Most Pokemon that pack super-effective moves against Golurk usually outspeed him and can then proceed to smack him or the switch in. Pokemon like Absol, Skuntank, Haunter, etc are wonderful checks to Golurk as they can all do massive damage and even KO him in the case of Absol and Haunter. Tangela also walls Golurk and can take every hit very well and respond with a strong Giga Drain. A good way to deal with Golurk is to make sure you at least have a Ground resist or immunity as Earthquake isn't a bad move to spam right now. SubPunch Golurk can be dealt pretty well by Tangela and using Cinccino to revenge kill it with Bullet Seed.

#5 Emboar: I'm really not cover Emboar that much since FLCL and me have the same take on him. He's very very strong but also very slow which is his downfall. Recoil+Hazards really wear him down pretty fast so as long as you play smart you can deal with Emboar pretty well. He's like a fire type Golurk in the sense that they both hit very hard but are outspeed by all of their checks.

Now onto Swoobat......I've never faced it but I do know its extremely frail so I think if you can manage to hit it with a Quick Attack or Extremespeed before it can set up a Sub then you might have a better chance at taking it out. Also Cinccino can revenge with Rock Blast if need be. I think the best way to deal with Swoobat is if you see it on Team Preview, try not to give it any set up opportunities and hopefully you can better manage it that way.

So what do you guys think about these potential suspects? Or maybe something that hasn't been brought up yet?

[Incon]

Amoonguss, in my eyes, is gonna be banned. With his new ability, he has become one of the bulkiest pokemon in the tier. With the move spore and a great typing, as well as high usage stats in the upper tiers, especially OU, his banning is evitable.

I'd like to talk a little bit about Cinccino. After the release of BW2, she received a huge buff in the form of Skill Link, an ability that allows multi-hit moves to 5 times every time. And boy, did she have the movepool to abuse it. Bullet Seed for rock types, Rock Blast for those pesky birds, and even her signature move, Tail Slap, which adds nice coverage and Stab. The power of her attacks could almost 2hko even the bulkiest of physical walls. No substitute user was safe as she could break the sub and do damage in the same turn. Coupling these attributes with her blistering speed, Cinccino quickly shot up to stardom and became one of the most used pokemon in the tier.

As time went on however, various counters were found. Steel types such as Klang and Bastiodon walled her as the momentum move U-turn had become more common than Wake-Up Slap on most sets. The item Rocky Helmet started to see a lot of usage as Cinccino would take 12% damage (iirc?) each time a tail slap would hit. With these counters brought to light, she became manageable and usage declined a little.

Sure, Cinccino was scary when she first came out, but there are enough counters that she can be played around. In my opinion, i dont think she is too over powered for the tier, as i have never really had a problem with her. She was certainly fun to use but i often found myself wanting more power. Honestly, i think Zangoose has a better chance to get banned because he has arguably more power and a way to get round steels with close combat as well as priority with quick attack. In conclusion, Cinccino is scary but is easily managed.

[dinosaurdan]

I wouldn't say Swoobat is broken, all the times I have faced it, Swoobat can't even get in 2 Calm Minds. And as MMF said, if you can get priority in before it Subs, it gets taken out pretty easily. Multi-Hit moves screw with it too, as much of it's utility comes from Substitute. It could be a potential suspect, but with the amount of usage multi-hit, priority and Stealth Rock combined sees, it has a lot of counters. Let's not forget that phazers can take it out too. As can a lot of Sturdy users, things that outspeed, Ditto, and Stuntank. In all, Swoobat probably isn't worth being a potential suspect really, as it has too many counters too leave.

[Sweet Jesus]

Cinncy: Cinncino really isn't that broken, It has many counters and can even be set up bait to klang. Plus Cinncy brings very cool diversity to the metagame making people use rocky helmet and is one of the rare physical pokemon to beat alomomola. Plus, weakness to rocky helmet is one of the worst weaknesses to have since it's probably the most unpredictable counter to ever have existed.

Zangoose: i think zanz is more threatening than cinncinco really. His crazy power, coverage and good priority move make him very powerful for the tier but I think he's manageable enough to stay for the moment. He's a good way around stupid amoonguss and keeps a balance with offense and defence for the moment. I also like how one of his best counter is a very offensive poke (haunter) unlike every other physical powerhouse. If zanz needs to go, I thnik tier shifts will take him, no need to ban.

Amoonguss: I don't agree with most of the previous users about amoonguss. FLCL said he was similar to tangela, but I disagree. Tangela combined with alomomla is beaten much more easily than with amoonguss. The secondary poison typing means toxic can not beat the core, spore is much more painful than sleep powder but most of all, amoonguss has decent mixed bulk. Amoonguss momo core is actualy pretty decent even on the special side. Focus sash kadabra for example doesn't even OHKO amoonguss. I really think amoonguss should go. Spore means even his counters have to play around him and makes the game slightly boring. Sure he is manageable but I don't think that's a valid criteria. I mean I'm sure toxicroak, gastrodon, chancey and many more would be manageable in NU, but there still OU for a reason. Amoonguss is surely going up next tier shifts so why not just accelerate the process.

Alomomola: this thing is a real pain to face too, wish pass + regen is infernal. I still think it can stay though because it really can't do shit to aything immune to toxic and is played around really easily with volt switch.

Golurk: I've never had any problems with golurk except very haxy dynamic punch sets. This guy can stay really.

Swoobat: haven't played too many but it can probably stay too. It's very frail and just absolutely needs set up to work. This leaves it very weak to priority encore and it's also pursuit and sucker punch weak and suffers from 4 move slot syndrome.

[Keiran]

Despite the initial hype that Cinccino received regarding Skill Link, it hasn't lived up to expectations for me. On paper, it seems absolutely amazing, Skill Link alongside a movepool filled with moves that hit multiple times, a blazing 115 base Speed and a decent yet not remarkable 95 base Attack. However, in practice, Cinccino has been somewhat underwhelming. All priority moves will severely dent Cinccino, and priority is everywhere at the moment, between Skuntank, Gurdurr, Carracosta and many more users, you'd be hard pressed to find an NU team that lacks a priority user. Additionally, Cinccino doesn't live too long with hazard and Life Orb recoil constantly racking up. In my opinion, I think Cinccino is a very similar case to Gorebyss, in the way that the metagame has adapted to take it on Steel-types like Probopass and Bastiodon, or the new-found Klang have seen increased usage in order to take on the rodent, additionally Rocky Helmet has seen some usage on certain walls like Amoonguss to rack up damage quicker on Cinccino. Even Choice Scarf users, like Rotom-S and Haunter can take out Cinccino once it has taken some inevitable recoil. So yeah, I don't think Cinccino is broken at this moment.

I'll post my opinion on Amoonguss, and other potential suspects later.

[Django]

When Cinccino got Skill Link, I was convinced it would be way too overpowering, just from running calcs and playing some of those DW NU tournaments we had. In reality though, it has been somewhat underwhelming. The hype around it meant everyone actually prepared for it, innovating with items such as Rocky Helmet, and as such it has fit very nicely into the tier. NU has certainly become more offensive however, and the value of priority and extremely fast Pokemon like Swellow has shot up, and this is in no small part due to Cinccino. I certainly think the metagame has, in part, centralised around it - but this is just a natural trend when such a powerful threat emerges.

As for Golurk / Emboar, these two are in a similar boat. On the surface, it is easy to say they can 2HKO everything with the appropriate move with entry hazards down. However, in reality they are slow, somewhat difficult to switch in, and how dangerous they are completely depends on the users ability to predict. Even then, the fact they have to resort to Choice Band, and by that items very nature thus risking themselves becoming set up fodder, it is much harder to declare them overpowered. I do not think a vote is necessary on these any time in the near future, but they are certainly very close to the top of NU threat wise.

Alomomola really should not be considered for suspecting in my opinion, its a solid Pokemon, but easy to play around and easy to take advantage of it. Regenerator is certainly a boost, but nothing near enough to push it over the egde. As for Swoobat, I have not played either with it ot against it enough to form a valid opinion.

Zangoose is, for me, the Pokemon I would most like to see voted upon. Its sheer power is astonishing, and very little in NU can avoid a 2HKO from it. It sets itself apart from its similar cousin Ursaring with a very good Speed stat, and indeed is unique in NU being that powerful and fast. I think the best set is the 4 attacks with Facade / Close Combat / Night Slash / Quick Attack, which hits everything in NU, as well as being able to circumvent Sucker Punch with Quick Attack. While Zangoose is admittedly weak to priority, as well as somewhat difficult to switch in, once it gets in something is going to die. Even if you are packing Haunter or similar (which is a great check), you always run the risk of being hit by Night Slash as you switch in. This set is mainly dealt with by either running Alomomola, or packing your team with priority.

The problem I have with this is, running 3 or so priority moves on a team seems like overkill to me, even in such a frail and offensive metagame, which has partly been developed by Zangoose itself. The fact that Zangoose can also just switch out of priority moves also makes it an incredibly unreliable way of dealing with Zangoose. Samurott, Gurdurr, Swellow and other common users of priority are not necessarily hard to switch into either, all sharing several hard counters in NU. Not to mention any sort of defensive team is almost required to run Alomomola to deal with this monster (note that Alomomola can either be amazing one match, and turn into a complete liability next match), and you have what is, in my opinion, an unhealthy Pokemon for the metagame. Alomomola also get murdered by the Swords Dance set, as rare as that is.

Finally that brings us to Amoonguss. This Pokemon is no doubt a huge threat in NU currently, being on a massive amount of teams (I will be looking forward to the stats on this). Access to Spore means it can cripple a Pokemon in just about every match, and we all know how dumb Sleep is in gen 5. It is also incredibly hard to wear down, being able to heal itself as it switches to an appropriate teammate if threatened, and access to Clear Smog prevent set up sweepers from breaking through it. This is another one of the Pokemon that has warped the metagame around it, and in every game I have played with it, it has just made the match worse. Even offensive teams can easily fall back on Amoonguss, and Amoonguss vs Amoonguss match ups are unholy. Actually "countering" Amoonguss is hard due to Spore, and it kind of makes me wish for Magmortar again. I am still unsure what should be done about this, since it is no doubt moving up next tier cycle, but I would not complain should it leave the tier early.

[Diatom]

I think, as a whole, the metagame is a great one, but there are a two things that I think at least deserve some discussion: Cinccino and Amoonguss.

If you're using life orb Cinccino, you're doing it wrong. Choice band Cinccino is incredibly frightening in this meta. It outspeeds almost everything and hits incredibly hard. Sure, it is frail, but that's why you don't switch it in onto a Samurott or the like. You switch in on to something that can't do much, such as Regirock, and proceed to destroy stuff. Sure, it wouldn't be suspect if this was it's only role, but it has enough speed to serve as an incredible revenge killer (definitely the best in the meta), even with choice band. This thing just hits too hard to ''not'' be suspect. For instance, 252/252+ Regirock, the most physically bulky poke in the meta, is 2HKOd. If this isn't a testament to its power, I don't know what is.

Amoonguss is much different than Cinccino, but is also suspect IMO. With spore to take something out of the fight, synthesis for reliable healing, and clear smog to remove boosts, this thing's utility is unparalleled. You also don't know what it's running in the fourth moveslot until it's too late: it could be toxic, stun spore, or giga drain, all of which have different counters. Regenerator is what really pushes it over the top; it pretty much ensures that unless you have hit is super effectively with STAB, it's going to survive. For example, if a move does 85%, Amoonguss can use synthesis (it's so slow that it will almost always move last), then switch out and regain ''all'' of it's health. This survivability is what pushes it over the top, and into suspect status, IMO.

Zangoose, Alomomola, Golurk, Gardevoir, and Beheeyem are all very threatening, but can all be somewhat easily shut down by common pokes, and thus I feel do not deserve suspect status at the moment.

So there's my wall of text about this. ~~~~

[MysticalJutsu]

Zangoose: I've been a long time user of zangoose and I love him, so I am biased, I'll admit. He's packing some heat, some serious heat. If you're not careful he'll wreck your team before you even know what's up. But honestly, if you don't have a priority user then don't bother with this tier, because you'll get raped. My kangashkan slaughters zangoose with a fake out and then a sucker punch. So I've never felt immediate threat from zangoose but as a user of zangoose I do know he's quite potent. I feel like as his use increases more pokemon will undoubtedly become accustom to dealing with him (Like Kangy). Eventually it'll get to the point where everyone will at least have one way of dealing with him and he could end up getting locked down in NU which is sad because he has the potential to be a threat up a tier, in my opinion. I don't think he needs to be banned. Like sweet jesus said, tier shifts will take him if he needs to go.

Cinccino: I hate this thing, so again, I am biased. If they send this thing out on the right pokemon, there ain't shit you can do. Most likely your pokemon are one turn ko'd by this thing or two turn ko'd. All they gotta do is send it after something already hurt and it's a goner. If you try and switch out it better be something that can handle two rounds of attacks from this thing. If I throw out magneton it seems to force it out, I don't know if it's because magneton can take it or because they don't think cinccino will handle magneton or what. As above with zangoose, kangashkans fake out and sucker punch do a good job taking it out. Like zangoose though I think tier shift will take it, but with cinccino I pray to god it will, because I despise this thing. I'd say ban it purely because I don't like it.

So no, I don't think they should be banned, but they should get bumped up a tier. Especially cinccino, ESPECIALLY.

[ChaoticaMortis]

NOTE: This is taking me a while to write, so if some of my statements are completely ninja'd by others then I'm sorry.

I feel like an asshole for running Golurk, Cinccino, and Alomomoonguss all on the same team this round. However, that has granted me quite a bit of experience with each Pokemon. I can honestly tell you right now that none of these Pokemon should be banned from NU. Quite a bit of discussion should be based around them, as they are indeed very powerful Pokemon right now, but again, they are not ban-worthy. Neither Cinccino nor Golurk have the ability to sweep prepared teams, and neither are very hard to kill; likewise, the Alomomoonguss core cannot fully wall teams that are packing the right coverage moves (let alone can they do much significant damage on their own). These aren't things like Jynx, who could easily incapacitate a counter and then proceed to sweep fully prepared teams. For any of you who played during Jynx's last round, please compare her to current suspects. Nothing we have now is half as frightening (except Combusken, that thing always scares the shit out of me when I have to play one).

First off,

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BAN GOREBYSS.

Kidding, of course. Now, onto the actual serious stuff. FLCL has basically stated everything I would have said (and probably more), but I'll try to state my opinion on things without rehashing his ideas too much.

Cinccino: SHIT'S WEAK AND STRAIGHT COUNTERED BY ROCKY HELMET AMOONGUSS.

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Cinccino has been pretty fun to abuse lately; it's tied with Sneasel, Floatzel, and Persian for 5th fastest Pokemon in NU and it can work as a cleaner, revenge killer, or even a semi-decent wall breaker. Its base 95 Attack stat has provided just enough power to make Cinccino extremely threatening with a Life Orb set. Its base 115 allows it to outspeed and KO even the weather sweepers if it is equipped with a Choice Scarf. It has (in my opinion) been one of the sole reasons for the virtual disappearance of Golem from our metagame. Skill Link provides it with three moves that all sport a base power of 125. If that's not enough, Cinccy can U-Turn out of almost any situation that it might face trouble in. If this thing gets a super effective hit, that usually means it gets the KO.
Sounds perfectly ban-worthy when you don't think of all the negatives, doesn't it? The problems faced by Cinccino are many, and it can't really do anything about them.
First and foremost, Life Orb recoil is a bitch. In all my time playing NU, I have never used a Pokemon that is hampered by its item as much as Cinccino is. Of course, this is also due to the fact that you're constantly having to switch around with Cinccino, causing you to take wasted recoil on attacks that hit switch-ins who resist your moves as well as Stealth Rock damage (Spikes aren't as common, but they'll fuck you up pretty bad, too).
Second, fuck priority. As frustrating as it already is to have to constantly switch this little thing in and out of battle, priority makes it so much worse. Virtually every priority in the tier will do about 40% to Cinccino. 40% might as well be all of its usable health considering all the other passive damage Cinccy is going to be taking.
Cinccino's LO set is the only thing even close to being suspected, as its other sets are a bit "meh." Choice Band suffers due to locking Cinccino into a single attack, but at least it doesn't lose all of its HP within three turns. It's definitely powerful, but Life Orb is ultimately more useful. Choice Scarf is Cinccino's second best set, and functions as an effective revenge killer, that's all it's going to do for you though.
So yeah, this thing is great, and can definitely clean up against a team that foolishly came unprepared for it, but the cons to it definitely balance out the pros.

Golurk: STRONGTHER THAN SD TENTACOOL.

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Golurk is another Pokemon that received a shit load of hype this round, and I do believe it was well-deserved. Golurk's Attack stat is huge (base 124, 6th highest in the tier) and its Choice Band set is horrifying. When Golurk came down to NU, he greeted us all by saying "fuck all of your remaining spinners" and making Spikes-stacking much more of a real threat than it was in previous rounds. Overall, Golurk is an excellent addition to NU, and an outstanding Pokemon. However, there is no reason Megatron needs to be banned. Golurk's problems hurt it worse in some situations than Cinccino's hurt itself.
Being choice-locked can absolutely kill Golurk's momentum. Shadow Punch is a good STAB move, especially powered up by Iron Fist; unfortunately, Normal-types are more common than crime in Detroit. Drain Punch is awesome for healing and adds to Golurk's coverage; saddening when you realize this welcomes every other Ghost-type in the tier into a free switch. Earthquake is another powerful STAB attack, Golurk's best choice in most situations; the pattern continues, however, as many common Pokemon either resist the move or are simply immune to it. Ice Punch is the only move in Golurk's main set that will always hit, and plenty of things resist that. Tl;dr, Golurk will almost always have to switch after landing 1-2 hits, as almost every opponent has something immune to one or two of its attacks.
Golurk is also extremely easy to revenge kill. Anything faster with a powerful special attack can put it away without much effort. If you aren't running Drain Punch, you have no way to heal, which is significant when you realize how average Golurk's bulk can really seem in most matches. Most super effective moves either OHKO'd mine or brought it down to laughable HP. I had to learn pretty fast what the right conditions were for Golurk to be brought in safely. These tended to primarily be when I predicted an Electric or Normal move, as otherwise Golurk would take a pretty heavy hit and be too slow to do anything before being 2HKO'd.
I've gotta admit, Golurk's been one of my favorite Pokemon to run since I joined up with NU in Round 0, and I'd hate to see him get voted out after being here for 1 round. Personal feelings aside, as a competitive player I feel that there's no reason that this thing should be banned. It's just not game-breaking. At all.

Alomomola: FUCK LUVDISC.

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Of the four Pokemon I plan on covering with this post, Alomomola is by far the least deserving of a ban. Alo can't even reach her full potential on her own, as she's best used in conjunction with either Amoonguss or Audino (or both, for the more defensive users). Yes, Alomomola is extremely bulky and can pass some of the largest wishes in the game, but that's all it has going for it. Most special attackers rip her apart, her offense is virtually nonexistent (although occasional Scald burns are cool...er, hot), and it's extremely easy to predict what she's going to do. Regenerator adds to her ability to annoy, but it doesn't make her impossible to kill.
By itself, there's no reason you shouldn't be able to take this thing down, even if you haven't specifically prepared for it. Special attacks and Toxic completely stop it in its tracks. Let's not forget about sets such as Mixed Emboar, which were made specifically to take things like Alomomola down. I would go as far as to say that banning Alomomola would break the entire NU metagame, as many of our strongest physical sweepers would have one less wall to worry about in a tier where we only have about 5 worth mentioning (I'm sure it wouldn't be that serious, but you never know).

Amoonguss: NU'S PREMIER DOUCHEBAG

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Okay, so it looks like everyone wants this thing gone just a little bit, and I can't say they aren't justified in thinking so. Amoonguss is one of the best defensive Pokemon in the tier, and its access to Spore makes it very hard to completely play around. It has also caused the complete elimination of Toxic Spikes due to its Poison-typing. Regenerator keeps its HP up, while it's got enough bulk to switch into something, attack / Spore, and then switch out with most of its health. Fortunately, just like every other Pokemon I've covered so far, Amoonguss has plenty of negatives to balance out the positives.
Base 30 Speed is about as impressive as it sounds, and even with a decent amount of offensive investment its special attacks aren't going to be doing loads of damage to much, even if they're super effective. Sap Sipper Pokemon such as Miltank don't care about Amoonguss at all, and can easily force him out. Pokemon that inflict status on themselves for a boost, such as Swellow and Zangoose, don't have to worry about being hit with Spore and can heavily damage Amoonguss to either KO or force it out. I think Drifblim deserves a mention as AcroBlimp can Substitute before a Spore and then OHKO with Flying Gem-boosted Acrobatics. We've also got a few viable Pokemon that run abilities which directly prevent sleep from affecting them that can force Amoonguss out (Vigoroth, Hypno, and Banette are all somewhat good). The reason I'm pointing out all of these Pokemon is because I think the biggest reason Amoonguss is being attacked by everyone is because it currently fucks with a metagame that we've solidly established and don't want to change up too much. The same thing happened with Gorebyss; everyone cried out for a ban the round that Gory got popular, but after we adapted to its offensive powers it dropped in usage and we virtually forgot that it existed.
Amoonguss is definitely the most controversial Pokemon in our current discussion. After using it for the entirety of this round, I can say that it isn't broken, furthermore it shouldn't be banned. Give yourselves time to adjust to it rather than calling for it to be immediately removed.

The Core of Alomomoonguss: WHOA CHAOTICA, WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING.

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This core deserves serious discussion, because these two Pokemon are an entirely different monster when used together. This is arguably the best defensive core in NU right now, and extremely tough to deal with unless you know how to predict and carry Pokemon to specifically deal with it. A primarily offensive team carrying this core can easily go on the defensive and stall things out if it loses one or two of its main sweepers, which can be significantly annoying at the least. Proper prediction and the use of Toxic + Clear Smog can make this core almost impossible to muscle through (or at least, this is what I've found from quite a few of my battles on the ladder). The fact that both Pokemon have Regenerator adds yet another level of the stress that these two can cause for their opponents.
By no means am I suggesting we ban the core; that's stupid. However, I do think that Amoonguss is much easier to hate when facing it paired up with Alomomola, and that's where the real problem is. I would never say that Amoonguss should be banned just because of what it can do on its own, but I'm definitely on the fence after seeing how damn effective it is when used with Momfish.

Okay, so this post is officially completed.

I'm going to make new posts concerning the other potential suspects as well as become more involved in the actual discussion.

[WhiteDMist]

I'd like to add in my own views about the current metagame. Nothing really seems to be completely dominating, but that may be because I only battle a few times per day.

Cinccino seems to be one of the Pokemon that has really defined the meta, since it and Zangoose have made most teams lean towards offense to safely deal with them. I've seen many teams carrying Probopass as both their Steatlh Rock setter and their Cinccino counter. It is also one of the more prominent factors in the decline of Golem. Still, we all know that it is easy enough to check, with many Pokemon surviving its assault once and hitting back hard. Priority is also very common in the tier. So while Cinccino is mildly centralizing, it is not broken. In truth, it only became more reliable than what it was before.

Zangoose is a bit harder to judge. It hits extremely hard, but clever switches and prediction can mitigate the damage it can do. Since hazards, especially Spikes, are so common, it doesn't usually last very long at all. Its base 90 speed is good, but it guarantees that Haunter is a great counter to it, especially the SubDisable variant (I can definitely attest to it). Zangoose and Cinccino have made our already offensively oriented metagame even more offensive. But I do not find it to be broken at all, so it really doesn't need to leave the tier unless the higher tiers claim it.

Amoonguss is definitely the face of defense, along with Alomomola. But I find that its biggest effect on the metagame is the sudden decrease in Toxic Spikes usage. It ironically makes stall harder to accomplish since most Stall teams do not have an easy answer to it, yet they cannot set up their, arguably, most important hazard. Regenerator and Spore are great, but we already had similar before in Tangela. It is really the Poison typing that made it so useful as a glue, similar to Skuntank. At least, that's my interpretation. Again, not broken, just centralizing.

Alomomola has a better time passing Wishes, but otherwise it is still the same as it was before. It really isn't even centralizing, except for the Regenerator cores that have been made popular.

Golurk was scary when it first dropped down for me. It still is scary, but only about as scary as any other slow offensive threat like Banded Emboar. What really makes it centralizing would be the fact that it can readily beat spinners, though some of them can at least make an attempt to break through it. Otherwise, its just another slow Physical powerhouse, with STABs that are remarkably easy to take advantage of.

Swoobat isn't that scary unless it gets multiple Calm Minds. Its SpDef is still pretty average after the boost, despite Simple. It was very easy enough to get a safe switch in when I used it, but surviving the next turn was a lot more tricky. Most offensive Pokemon in the tier carry a move that can hit it neutrally. If the metagame was more defensive, then maybe Swoobat would be more threatening, but Priority, and the general focus on physical attackers have made it less than centralizing or broken. (has anyone noticed that aside from Swoobat, the offensive oriented Pokemon discussed so far have been physical?).

The only other threatening things in the tier offensively are Absol and Braviary, but Absol is frail and somewhat prediction based while Braviary is easy to wear down and has only average speed.

[MysticalJutsu]

Originally Posted by Fat WhiteDMist

Zangoose is a bit harder to judge. It hits extremely hard, but clever switches and prediction can mitigate the damage it can do. Since hazards, especially Spikes, are so common, it doesn't usually last very long at all. Its base 90 speed is good, but it guarantees that Haunter is a great counter to it, especially the SubDisable variant (I can definitely attest to it). Zangoose and Cinccino have made our already offensively oriented metagame even more offensive. But I do not find it to be broken at all, so it really doesn't need to leave the tier unless the higher tiers claim it.

See, as a zangoose user I gotta tell yah, if you put zangoose on hazards you're doing it wrong. Always, always, always rapid spin and make sure the path is clear for zangoose. As long as the hazards are gone you will get the max out of your zangoose. Actually I find when I play in general maybe 1/5 players who intend to put down hazards fail because my leads always have taunt. So I really haven't encountered any hazard problems with zangoose at all, especially since when the 1/5 actually sets it I spin it off before putting him out.
I'm not saying it's invalid, it's a very real threat that the others have neglected to mention. But, it is imperative to his success that you don't let things wear down on him, because he's already on a goddamn timer.
And yeah most ghost switch ins will stop his sweep on the spot, because I run quick attack over night slash. So it's also important to make sure there aren't any ghosts left standing before using zangoose. Though I've tricked people by switching him in on a ghost (without night slash), they assumed I had it and switched out in fear of death, while I OHKO'd the switch in. But that's besides the point.
Honestly the best counter to him is anything with mach punch. Priority is zangoose kryptonite, because usually he's already hurt from being in and you're gonna OHKO his ass.

[Malkyrian]

Okay, so here are my thoughts on some of the mons discussed thus far:

Amoonguss: This is probably the most centralizing mon in the meta right now. While centralizing is not the same thing as broken, after having used Amoonguss for practically the entire month, I can't help but notice how ridiculously good it is, especially with the departure of Magmortar. Spore is practically guaranteed to take out a mon, unless they have something with Sap Sipper or have Substitute up - and even then, just spamming Sludge Bomb is often enough, with Amoonguss' amazing defenses and surprising amount of power. Factor in Regenerator and Synthesis and it's practically unkillable. As much as I'm shooting my own team in the foot by doing this, I have to ultimately say: Amoonguss is BL3.

Swoobat: From personal experience of using this, I can say with confidence: Swoobat is NU. I used Swoobat for about 10 days, even building a whole team around it, and even then I feel my team is actually better now that I've replaced it with Gardevoir. Sure, it's fast and powerful, but it also dies to a light breeze. Cinccino outspeeds it by 1 point, which is huge - and the fact that Swoobat often runs Substitute only exacerbates this fact. Not to mention serious 4MSS. When I used Swoobat, it would run right through teams that didn't have priority, didn't have a scarfer, didn't have a mon that could take a hit, weren't able to keep up offensive pressure, didn't have a phazer - in other words, only teams that were bad to begin with.

Zangoose: I don't think I've been this certain of a mon's brokenness since DPP UU Cresselia. There is nothing in the tier that can safely switch into Zangoose. To really drive the point home, consider this damage calc:

+2 252 Atk Jolly Toxic Boost Zangoose Close Combat vs. 252 HP 252 Def Impish Regirock: 85.16%-100.55%.

So after Stealth Rock and Leftovers, Zangoose has a significant chance to OHKO the most physically defensive mon in the tier while it's using an EV spread that's used by just about no one, with a non-STAB attack, after just one boost. Standard physically defensive Misdreavus? 93.75% chance of an OHKO after SR with +2 Shadow Claw. Standard physically defensive Tangela? 62.5% after SR with +2 Facade. Alomomola? Zangoose doesn't even need SR. Revenge killers? STAB Quick Attack says hi.

So, yeah. Zangoose is BL3.

Alomomola: SETUP BAIT. That pretty much sums it up. Not once have I ever seen an Alomomola turn out to be a legitimate threat to my team, and I've seen quite a few Alomomola. Its Waterfalls are weak, and its Scalds are even weaker; practically anything can take a hit from it. All it really has for offense is Toxic, meaning anything immune to Toxic and not dreadfully weak to Water can just come in for free and laugh. Wish is pretty much the only reason to ever use this thing, and that can very easily be played around. I honestly don't even think it's a good mon, much less a suspect. Alomomola is NU.

These are just the mons I've had a good amount of experience playing with/against, and feel qualified to discuss. I might add one for Cinccino later, though; right now I'm undecided, despite having spent a lot of time playing against it.

EDIT: Also regarding everyone upthread saying "but the tier shifts will take this mon", please don't go there. We have no guarantee that the mons will get enough usage to go up a tier or two. If they are broken, if they need to be banned, and they aren't because of impending tier shifts that don't happen...what then? We're stuck with a broken metagame until the next suspect test, which would probably take another whole month on top of the extra month and a half that we went through just anticipating the tier shifts. If they're broken now, ban them now, don't rely on upper tier players to do our job for us.

EDIT 2: Removed the hide tags. Thought the post was lengthy without them, but really, they just get in the way.

[WhiteDMist]

Originally Posted by Fat MysticalJutsu

See, as a zangoose user I gotta tell yah, if you put zangoose on hazards you're doing it wrong. Always, always, always rapid spin and make sure the path is clear for zangoose. As long as the hazards are gone you will get the max out of your zangoose. Actually I find when I play in general maybe 1/5 players who intend to put down hazards fail because my leads always have taunt. So I really haven't encountered any hazard problems with zangoose at all, especially since when the 1/5 actually sets it I spin it off before putting him out.
I'm not saying it's invalid, it's a very real threat that the others have neglected to mention. But, it is imperative to his success that you don't let things wear down on him, because he's already on a goddamn timer.
And yeah most ghost switch ins will stop his sweep on the spot, because I run quick attack over night slash. So it's also important to make sure there aren't any ghosts left standing before using zangoose. Though I've tricked people by switching him in on a ghost (without night slash), they assumed I had it and switched out in fear of death, while I OHKO'd the switch in. But that's besides the point.
Honestly the best counter to him is anything with mach punch. Priority is zangoose kryptonite, because usually he's already hurt from being in and you're gonna OHKO his ass.

It would be ideal if every team that uses Zangoose has a Taunt user and a Rapid Spinner. However, Banded Golurk is still rather common and like I already mentioned, it can beat most spinners 1 on 1. Armaldo has Aqua Tail, but Golurk outspeeds it and can KO it before it can KO him. Banded EQ does 52.82-62.71% on max HP/max Def Impish Armaldo, a 2-3HKO wit Leftovers (most Armaldo are the SD spinner). Unfortunately, without a boost, the SD ARmaldo cannot KO with Aqua Tail, even with Rocks up if Golurk is at full HP, doing 76.88% on 4 HP Banded Golurk. That is also why Golurk is being discussed; its strong offense combined with its Ghost typing make it a powerful offensive spinblocker. It also means that there will usually be Stealth Rocks up at least, which is residual damage enough for Zangoose.

[CrashinBoomBang]

I'll post my thoughts on this tomorrow, but for now my opinion is that Neverused is both really balanced and fun.

[/B/utterfree]

Cincinno: Don't ban.

As much as I love the magical things CherubAgent does, Cincinno's decidedly not a broken Pokemon. It's crazy powerful, yes, but I replaced it with a Toxic Boost Zangoose rather quickly. Because Zangoose had better attacks, better staying power, and was much less prone to being revengekilled.

Zangoose: Ban

The only problem I can find with Toxic Boost Zangoose is that it's a timed sweeper. Barring that, it can still sweep more than half of the opponent's team before its time is up. It has insanely good coverage, and its STAB is relentless. Even the most physically-oriented tank (Regirock) is OHKOed by a coverage move. As mentioned earlier, nothing safely switches in.

Amoongus: I genuinely don't care either way

Regenerator's probably shooting Amoongus all the way to OU. At worst? It'll be in RU making a mess of an already-unstable tier. Either way, it's got a good chance of departing NU anyway. I admit it's broken as hell, and would love for it to be in BL3. However, it might not stay in BL3 long enough for the tier listing to be officialized on Smogon.

Golurk: I tossed a coin. It landed on Ban.

Honestly, Golurk's an insanely good Pokemon for the likes of NU. Both of its abilities are awesome. Iron Fist is the superior ability, though. Most people like to use Choice items on him. Me? I stick with the tried-and-true Expert Belt, and laugh at surprise switch-ins. Although a Life Orb's also terrific for Golurk, since he would use Drain Punch to recover lost health anyway. I don't care either way, but I am leaning towards banning Golurk. It neuters RapidSpinning in NU and isn't afraid of much.

Other 'mons haven't really been used much for me to decide. I've seen more NFEs than I have seen Almomola, true story.

[MysticalJutsu]

Originally Posted by Fat WhiteDMist

It would be ideal if every team that uses Zangoose has a Taunt user and a Rapid Spinner. However, Banded Golurk is still rather common and like I already mentioned, it can beat most spinners 1 on 1. Armaldo has Aqua Tail, but Golurk outspeeds it and can KO it before it can KO him. Banded EQ does 52.82-62.71% on max HP/max Def Impish Armaldo, a 2-3HKO wit Leftovers (most Armaldo are the SD spinner). Unfortunately, without a boost, the SD ARmaldo cannot KO with Aqua Tail, even with Rocks up if Golurk is at full HP, doing 76.88% on 4 HP Banded Golurk. That is also why Golurk is being discussed; its strong offense combined with its Ghost typing make it a powerful offensive spinblocker. It also means that there will usually be Stealth Rocks up at least, which is residual damage enough for Zangoose.

I've found golurk to be intense taunt bait, specifically the sub punch variant, which I face more frequently than the banded. You just assume that the situation involves a banded golurk and hazards being put down, what you describe sounds too situational for my taste. And like I said, the ghosts should be dead before you even want to use zangoose. Meaning no spin blockage. I suppose this is a yin and yang argument, but I've really had almost no problems with hazards vs zangoose, at all. With careful playing and a prepared team hazards can be dealt with. (Which is the rationalization for why stealth rocks are all gravy, despite robbing so many pokemon of success just by typing.)

But the example you just gave is all the more reason why zangoose isn't as broken as they may think, he's pretty demanding and needs proper support.

[FLCL]

Originally Posted by Fat MysticalJutsu

I've found golurk to be intense taunt bait, specifically the sub punch variant, which I face more frequently than the banded. You just assume that the situation involves a banded golurk and hazards being put down, what you describe sounds too situational for my taste.

How is Golurk Taunt bait when it can kill the two most common Taunt users in the metagame in Misdreavus and Skuntank? Forget setting up, you shouldn't even be staying in on these Pokemon and even if you do, any good player would just attack them rather than set up. In the case that I am missing something, can you elaborate on which Taunt users you're referring to which can use Golurk as "Taunt bait"?

[Raseri]

i had quite a bit typed out but then I accidently closed the window :(. Anyways I think that Cinccino, Golurk and Zangoose should be suspects at this point in time. I'll just use a list of points this time to discuss my feelings.

Cinccino:

• It is ridiculously fast, meaning the only way to really revenge kill it is with a Scarfer, or a lot of priority. And many teams are running 3-4 priority users per team primarily to defeat Cinccino and Zangoose.
• With 3 moves that are 125 BP each Cinccino can hit really hard, only a few Pokemon such as Bastiodon, Probopass and Misdreavus can tank its hits repeatedly
• We are really running Rocky Helmet on Pokemon that should be running leftovers just to beat Cinccino...
• Guys its so fast and so strong, and it even has u-turn to spam early game and weaken your probopass.

Zangoose:

• STAB 210 BP Move, Toxic Boost 115 base attack.
• its fast too
• did I mention it has perfect coverage
• and priority, STAB priority
• Oh and it can use Swords Dance if it feels like it
• its basically ridiculous

I'll post Golurk later since im kinda tired. Amoonguss should get a vote but its not broken in my opinion.

[MysticalJutsu]

Originally Posted by Fat FLCL

How is Golurk Taunt bait when it can kill the two most common Taunt users in the metagame in Misdreavus and Skuntank? Forget setting up, you shouldn't even be staying in on these Pokemon and even if you do, any good player would just attack them rather than set up. In the case that I am missing something, can you elaborate on which Taunt users you're referring to which can use Golurk as "Taunt bait"?

What do you mean? If it uses a sub punch set, it's too slow and vulnerable without the sub down. Persian does good, you can taunt and then u-turn out to a ghost to protect from drain punch. Electrodes cute, you can taunt then switch out on earthquake with a flier, in my case swanna and surf him.

Originally Posted by Fat /B/utterfree

Amoongus: I genuinely don't care either way

Regenerator's probably shooting Amoongus all the way to OU. At worst? It'll be in RU making a mess of an already-unstable tier. Either way, it's got a good chance of departing NU anyway. I admit it's broken as hell, and would love for it to be in BL3. However, it might not stay in BL3 long enough for the tier listing to be officialized on Smogon.

I agree about not really caring, but for different reasons. I really don't recall losing too much to one of these, I dunno, they just seemed...not that good. But if you guys think they're ass kicking monoliths of complete annihilation, halting only to lubricate the joints operating this hybrid death machine using the blood and bone marrow of it's defeated victims and the tears of their weeping family brought upon them by the delectable and exquisite agony of love lost, on their path to mercilessly crush your pokemon, tirelessly, churning the fluids of war within themselves into a formula of complete havoc and disarray, using it to slowly poison the water supply. I'll have to take your word for it.

Originally Posted by Fat Raseri

i had quite a bit typed out but then I accidently closed the window :(. Anyways I think that Cinccino, Golurk and Zangoose should be suspects at this point in time. I'll just use a list of points this time to discuss my feelings.

Cinccino:

• It is ridiculously fast, meaning the only way to really revenge kill it is with a Scarfer, or a lot of priority. And many teams are running 3-4 priority users per team primarily to defeat Cinccino and Zangoose.
• With 3 moves that are 125 BP each Cinccino can hit really hard, only a few Pokemon such as Bastiodon, Probopass and Misdreavus can tank its hits repeatedly
• We are really running Rocky Helmet on Pokemon that should be running leftovers just to beat Cinccino...
• Guys its so fast and so strong, and it even has u-turn to spam early game and weaken your probopass.

Zangoose:

• STAB 210 BP Move, Toxic Boost 115 base attack.
• its fast too
• did I mention it has perfect coverage
• and priority, STAB priority
• Oh and it can use Swords Dance if it feels like it
• its basically ridiculous

@Cinccino: EXACTLY, man someone gets it, I hate those little bastards.
@Zangoose: Which is why it can actually do some damage a tier up, it's actually not a bad pokemon in my opinion.

P.S. accidentally double posted.

[Zebraiken*]

Originally Posted by Fat MysticalJutsu

What do you mean? If it uses a sub punch set, it's too slow and vulnerable without the sub down. Persian does good, you can taunt and then u-turn out to a ghost to protect from drain punch. Electrodes cute, you can taunt then switch out on earthquake with a flier, in my case swanna and surf him.

This sort of logic doesn't belong in the suspect discussion thread. :/ Every Taunt user is incredibly vulnerable to one of Golurk's moves. It is in no way Taunt bait when it OHKOes every single common user of Taunt in the metagame. I suppose I should have asked that those who post here to actually have had experience/paid attention to previous suspect discussions and know what they're talking about.

<FLCL> zeb you shouldve told him that "taunt bait" means that taunt disables your main methods of damaging the opponent, such as perish song murkrow or alomomola

[MysticalJutsu]

Originally Posted by Fat Zebraiken

This sort of logic doesn't belong in the suspect discussion thread. :/ Every Taunt user is incredibly vulnerable to one of Golurk's moves. It is in no way Taunt bait when it OHKOes every single common user of Taunt in the metagame. I suppose I should have asked that those who post here to actually have had experience/paid attention to previous suspect discussions and know what they're talking about.

I'm not saying don't ban him, he's obviously too good. I see what your point is, but I'm really just here to learn, I got like ten posts or something. I was inquiring about what he meant by that, I don't know things like (he ohko's every taunter in the meta game). I can only work with my experience playing online against him, which admittedly hasn't been too brutal at all. After I got sick of him beating my ass, I just started to use scrappy kangaskhan to deal with him, which works for me, but no I don't have the calculation to back up that claim.
If you don't want me to participate, then I am okay with that. But this forum has been incredibly unwelcoming to me as a new member, I'm really quite shocked as the people on the servers seemed pretty nice.

[Zebraiken*]

Originally Posted by Fat MysticalJutsu

I'm not saying don't ban him, he's obviously too good. I see what your point is, but I'm really just here to learn, I got like ten posts or something. I was inquiring about what he meant by that, I don't know things like (he ohko's every taunter in the meta game). I can only work with my experience playing online against him, which admittedly hasn't been too brutal at all. After I got sick of him beating my ass, I just started to use scrappy kangaskhan to deal with him, which works for me, but no I don't have the calculation to back up that claim.
If you don't want me to participate, then I am okay with that. But this forum has been incredibly unwelcoming to me as a new member, I'm really quite shocked as the people on the servers seemed pretty nice.

It's fine to be new and awesome to want to participate, but if you're new this probably isn't a discussion you want to be participating in, where the viability of everyone's posts are going to be frequently called into question. If you're just looking to start getting experience in the tier, I'd take a look through the np: thread which is sticked at the top of the forum (and feel free to post anything about NU in there!) or go on IRC and check out #neverused, where everyone is pretty awesome and helpful.