Metagame Analyses: Offense vs. Stall

[Antar*]

The discussion on team types is now closed, but for some reason I decided not to open a new thread. So please treat this post as the OP.

So back when we were just using PO, Innocent Criminal used to take logs of the movesets, EV spreads, etc. that each Pokemon used and generate detailed moveset analyses (what moves were used most frequently, most common EV spreads, that sort of thing) and metagame analyses.

Now that most of our simulator data comes from PS, I've got to adapt these scripts. Moveset analyses is, like, 50% done (I'm basically waiting to see if there's a smart way I can go about combining similar movesets, like Jolly vs. Adamant Scarfed Darmanitan).

For the metagame analyses, I know pretty much what I'm doing, but I want some input from the community to make sure there isn't some obscure strategy that I'm missing. What follows is a list of the various strategies or "team types" I plan on looking for, complete with my definition for what it takes for a team to be classified as that type. Please let me know if you take issue with one of my definitions or if there's a team type I'm missing. [Edit: Offensiveness vs. Stall is handled separately using a metric Innocent Criminal called "bias," which looks at EV spreads, moves and items.]

• Rain: At least one pokemon on the team has the ability Drizzle, or at least one pokemon on the team has the move Rain Dance and is holding a Damp Rock (without a Damp Rock, it's more likely a Swift Swim sweeper) or at least two pokemon on the team have the move Rain Dance without a Damp Rock.
• Sun: Equivalent definition to Rain.
• Sand: "
• Hail: "
• Baton Pass: At least two pokemon on the team have the move Baton Pass plus a setup move (Calm Mind, Ingrain, Substitute...).
• Trick Room: At least two pokemon on the team has the move Trick Room without the move Imprison, and at least two others are "slow" (-Spe nature or base speed <= 50, plus no more than 4 EVs speed investment), or at least three have Trick Room without Imprison.
• Gravity: At least two pokemon on the team that has the move Gravity, and at least two others that have <=80% accuracy moves, ground-type moves, Spikes or Toxic Spikes, , or at least three have Gravity.
• Wonder Room: I haven't yet heard of a team successfully exploiting Wonder Room. Let me know if you have.
• Magic Room: I imagine there's a gimmick you can exploit involving a Choice-locked setup sweeper, or maybe something involving Trick and negative-effect items. Has anyone seen anything to this effect?
• VoltTurn: At least three pokemon on the team have either Volt Switch, U-Turn, Baton Pass or Eject Button (lol).
• DragMag: At least two Dragon-type pokemon and at least one pokemon with Magnet Pull, Arena Trap or Shadow Tag.
• Trapper: At least three pokemon on the team with Magnet Pull, Arena Trap, Shadow Tag, Mean Look, Spider Web or Block.
• F.E.A.R.: At least one spinner / magic bouncer and at least two F.E.A.R. Pokemon (pokemon with Endeavor and Sturdy/Focus Sash).
• Choice: At least four pokemon with a choice item without the ability Klutz.

[Edit: Teams may fall under more than one category and will be listed as such, so I haven't explicitly defined things like multi-weather or TrickSand]

That's all I've got, folks! It seems like there should be more to the metagames than that. Obviously there are a ton of specialized strategies for VGC, but is this really it for Singles?

Note: this post will be updated as I get feedback.

[Camisado]

Is it worth mentioning the Gravity, Assist, and Copycat teams/sets?

What's the logic behind not noting things like stall, semistall, balance, HO, bulky offense, etc?

[2sly4u]

I'm seconding the inclusion of Gravity. If Magic Room is up there (a strategy I've never seen before), then Gravity (a strategy I've seen a couple times) should be as well.

[alkinesthetase]

i think beyond a few niche things like gravity, you're not gonna be able to design an alg that accurately predicts what the team's "strategy" is. things like rain and TR and gravity are easy to see, but is the team balanced? is it stall? is it HO? these things are much more important imo, but a LOT harder to read in an alg and i'm not sure a rigorous definition can be established at all. i'd say the things you listed are enough

@ camisado: basically my post. can you even establish a rigorous enough definition of those terms that we can define a team type for them that a program can understand? i don't think so. i think the closest you could get would be a concrete definition of dual screens hyper offense, which imo is one dual screen user + 5 boosting sweepers (EDIT: okay pocket i guess you could go the sissy way and only run 2 =P). otherwise even the term of hyper offense is difficult to nail down because what it really refers to is a team of all out attackers that eliminate one another's counters/checks and maintain momentum through revenge killing, without wasting time on defensive setup or positioning moves (i was veritably moved when i read this definition of the term by jimera0. mind was blown). i don't think something like that can be encapsulated in a series of step by step defining traits. it has so much more to do with playstyle which is something that's not really captured in a team's moveslots or individual mons. same goes for other playstyle terminology; i think it's beyond the ability of a program to capture

[Pocket]

You'd want AT LEAST 2 Trick Room setters if you're utilizing a TR-heavy team. Otherwise it's just a bad Trick Room team / OTR Reuniclus and some defensive mon like Ferrothorn or TTar.

Wonder Room and Magic Room are gimmicks, we don't need their information. Gravity is more legitimate.

Dual Screen Heavy Offense - at least one pokemon with both Reflect + Light Screen @ Light Clay and maybe accompanied by at least two Pokemon with set-up moves / Life Orb?

[ThePillsburyDoughBoy]

• The metric for Rain and Sun is good. Sand and hail should follow a similar metric with the abilities.
• Trick Room catagory should definitely be two Pokemon having the move Trick Room. You could have stuff like TR Reuniclus on the same team with a defensive wall (like Ferrothorn, Forretress, Tyranitar) when its really balanced!
• The metric for Volt-Turn is good, although I would remove Baton Pass in that metric because you could have teams considered both baton pass and Volt-Turn

Where is balance, stall, and HO?

Also aren't balance, bulky offense, and semi-stall the same thing or do they just have very slight deviations?

[Shining Latios]

Originally Posted by Fat Camisado

Is it worth mentioning the Gravity, Assist, and Copycat teams/sets?

What's the logic behind not noting things like stall, semistall, balance, HO, bulky offense, etc?

Those seem to be more of playstyles rather than teams.

[Arcticblast]

Dragmag: The combination of multiple Dragon-type Pokemon (probably 3+) with at least one Pokemon with the ability Magnet Pull, Shadow Tag or Arena Trap.

That's the only solid one I've got :\

[Antar*]

Originally Posted by Fat 2sly4u

I'm seconding the inclusion of Gravity. If Magic Room is up there (a strategy I've never seen before), then Gravity (a strategy I've seen a couple times) should be as well.

Whoops! Meant to include Gravity. It's listed now.

Originally Posted by Fat Pocket

You'd want AT LEAST 2 Trick Room setters if you're utilizing a TR-heavy team. Otherwise it's just a bad Trick Room team / OTR Reuniclus and some defensive mon like Ferrothorn or TTar.

Got it.

Dual Screen Heavy Offense - at least one pokemon with both Reflect + Light Screen @ Light Clay and maybe accompanied by at least two Pokemon with set-up moves / Life Orb?

Hmm...

Originally Posted by Fat Camisado

...Assist, and Copycat teams/sets?

Never seen one of those teams. How do they work?

What's the logic behind not noting things like stall, semistall, balance, HO, bulky offense, etc?

Stall/offense will be handled separately, using a "stalliness" metric that I need to do some work on.

[alkinesthetase]

no, i don't think balance, bulky offense and semistall are all the same. i don't FEEL like they are. however i can't really say that means much because the definitions are so loose... as we're beginning to notice =P

i would say that balance runs more defensive mons and walls/defensive pivots than a bulky offense team which would have more offensive pivots and more attackers. semistall i believe is on the other side of the spectrum with more defensive mons than balanced.

this is a super extreme oversimplification but i guess you could say that, in terms of mon selection alone, this is how my mind wants to see it:

DEFENSE < ------------+-------------> OFFENSE
full stall - semistall - balance - bulky offense - HO

ofc though there's more to it than that. imo semistall wins more by the stall mindset than balance or bulky offense, ie by racking up residual damage and pivoting switches. on the other hand bulky offense would be more concerned with attacking and actually dealing direct damage than balance or semistall

EDIT: oh and antar, on the definition of gravity, what about gravity stall that seeks to abuse spikes damage? i think grounded entry hazards also need to be counted in the list of "gravity-abusing-stuff"

and imo dragmag only needs to follow the classical 2drag1mag core to count. it's tough to make a team of more than 2 dragons without becoming dragon or ice weak (see enter the dragon, one of my favorite RMTs of all time) and imo the concept of "force out steels with one dragon, kill then with a trapper, and clean house with another dragon" only needs two dragons to really function. basically what i'm saying is i would define dragmag as 2+ dragons and 1 trapper, as opposed to a minimum of 3 dragons.

hell if we really wanted to we could broaden the concept even further. 2drag1mag is just a specialized and particularly effective example of a classic concept of running two similar mons that are countered and checked in similar ways, using one mon to force out the counters/checks and cripple them so they cannot do their jobs again when the second one comes in. however at that point the definition becomes too hazy to define

@pocket below: i'd be careful on that definition because many well made stall teams carry a powerful cleaner or attacker to avoid becoming so defensive that they can no longer hurt other durable teams. it's tough to define a threshold for what becomes stall in terms of mon selection alone

oh and i think i'm derailing the thread since antar already mentioned his stalliness metric so i will hold my peace now =P i am curious about this offense vs defense bias system, but that i think is a topic best left to a new thread altogether

[Pocket]

Also Deoxys-D at close to max Spe with SR + Spikes combined with lots of sweepers (ie min. of 3 Pokemon with max Atk or SpA / Spe spread?) can be defined as Heavy Offense.

Bulky Offense is much harder to define, since it has both offensive and defensive elements.

I guess Defensive / Stall teams can be defined as teams lacking "Sweeper EV Spreads"?

[Antar*]

Guys, I've got the Offense <-> Stall stuff covered (or, at least, it should be part of a separate discussion). I'm really just looking for help identifying team types.

Could I get a second on DragMag? Is that a real thing?

[alkinesthetase]

i will throw in my hat, definitely dragmag is a real thing. as i mentioned, see Enter the Dragon in the rmt archive. the idea is that you run two dragons and magnezone/ton. the first dragon breaks walls and lures out steels which are promptly caught in a double switch by your magnet puller (magneton is useful for its extra speed if running scarf, otherwise magnezone is obviously superior). you wipe the steels and suddenly your opponent has no way to stop the sweep that will then be executed by your second, remaining dragon. the concept works with any two similar sweepers being run side by side, but dragons are particularly good because they have astounding neutral coverage walled by only one type, which happens to have a trapper specifically designed to eliminate it. you can run with the concept and run 3, 4, i guess even 5 dragons if you're one ballsy mofo.

[Antar*]

k, I've got DragMag up on there, and I've revised some other definitions. Still looking for some parameters for Assist/Copycat.

Dual Screens doesn't really seem to me to meet the criteria of a playstyle any more than, say, Entry Hazard Spam would.

[X5Dragon]

I think we should all agree that Team types should be in bold in all posts made by other than Antar so it can help people track what isn't already there.

That being said, here's what I think are missing:

DeoGhost Offense: Warrants it's own category because the operational mode is too obvious and the format is the same, Deo for the taunt and hazards, Gengar or other ghosts to kill any spinners and then set up users (mostly with priority) to smash down the team.

===========

[alkinesthetase]

it's not so much dual screens on its own, as it is a way of building a team that happens to demand dual screens. it's a variant of hyper offense that runs an unusually high amount of boosting sweepers (even by the standards of hyper offense - as pocket said, we're talking 3-5 boosters here). to ensure you have enough bulk to find setup opportunities, the team is then obliged to run dual screens

basically it's a form of hyper offense that uses one defensive supporter mon, which then facilitates easier kos for the other five mons. the other way i've seen this done - again as pocket mentioned - is hazard stacking deoxys-D plus tons of attackers, since deo-D is basically the best suicide spikes lead available in OU. i think this is the only sort of hyper offense that's definable enough to actually be given a strategy to itself, but it's not my call as to whether or not it should get an entry. if it was my call, i would define this way:

Suicide Setup Hyper Offense
(sorry the name is so long, but i think hyper offense encompasses more than just this type of team)
A pokemon satisfying either these characteristics:

• Carrying light clay
• has light screen and reflect

or these characteristics:

• base 90+ speed, and significant speed investment (including a speed-boosting nature)
• stealth rock
• spikes, OR taunt (i feel that these two moves are the ones that set apart a suicide lead's moveset the most, but feel free to argue if you can think of other ones)

plus at least 3 pokemon satisfying the following characteristics

• at least 3 attacking moves
• significant investment in special attack and/or attack
• either significant investment in speed, or a -spe nature plus trick room (ie for a standalone TR reuniclus or something)

EDIT @below: acknowledged

[Antar*]

I'm sorry, in my eyes, these variants of Hyper Offense are just that--variants of Hyper Offense and not really worth their own dedicated distinctions.

Also, a combo (such as DeoGhost or GyaraVire, God Forbid) does not a team make.

[X5Dragon]

Alright then what remains to be named is something that already peaked number 1 in some RMT that escapes me:

Trapper team: Team that uses 3 or more pokemon with the ability shadow tag, Arena trap, Magnet Pull or the move Mean Look.

I think the team in the RMT used Chandulure, Wobby and Magneton in DW OU.

[alkinesthetase]

^ or magnet pull. but o_O at the concept. what's the team's win condition? mind linking the RMT? (i feel like it would have something to do with lure-heavy uturn trapper trolling to facilitate an easy sweep with something... but this feels too vague to be given a strategy of its own)

[zpattack12]

I feel like sand should be a little different than the other weathers, as some people use it as anit-weather, rather than abusing it themselves.

[Jimera0]

I agree with antar about the dual screens and suicide lead thing. As long as the metric that Antar ends up using reliably categorizes teams with suicide leads as HO I think we'll be OK.

While I don't know much about Copycat, Assist teams are easy enough to define. Basically, it's one or more Pokemon with Assist and maybe some other moves, and then a team with Pokemon that have nothing but massively powerful moves. A common method is Contrary Spinda with Assist, Superpower filler and then the rest of the team having nothing but Pokemon with V-create (so 1 Vicinti and like nothing else basically).

While there are variations to it, a pretty reliable way to define it would be if at least 1 Pokemon has assist and at least half the rest of the team has less than 4 moves. I think sometimes people using these gimmick teams do have one or two Pokemon with moves that cannot be called by assist (Trick, Switcheroo, Mirror Coat, Counter, Nature Power, damaging phazing moves and Transform being notable ones). Also notable is the tendency for these teams to not run the full 6 mon complement sometimes, though that might not work as a metric.

Hopefully that's enough information for you to write a suitable metric for them, though they don't get used much on the ladder anyway due to being so incredibly gimicky, so it might not be worth it.

[Antar*]

I'm open to the trapper concept, viable or not (after all, I'm entertaining Wonder Room...)

Originally Posted by Fat zpattack12

I feel like sand should be a little different than the other weathers, as some people use it as anit-weather, rather than abusing it themselves.

Elaborate please?

If it's non-permanent sand, then it doesn't get counted (unless you're running multiple sand pokes). If it IS permanent sand, then your team must have some sort of sand synergy or I doubt it's going to work. You'd have more of a case if it were Sun or even Rain.

[X5Dragon]

(Dream World) Team Trap n' Kill!

Finally found it lol.

On the subject of using weather to remove other weather, I use rain dance after I kill the sun,sand or hail inducer to remove weather and make my job easier as a weatherless HO. The DragMag team made by Ojama used a Politoed that contained no Rain abusers for the same reason. I don't know what you should call it but there are teams that use a weather inducer/move just so they can royally screw the opponents weather abusing team, be it stall or otherwise.

[G-Von]

Multi-Weather Team: When there are two or more pokemon on a team with different abilities that start up weather. Sand Stream, Drizzle, Drought, and/or Snow Warning are obviously the choices, but having Ttar and Hippowdon on one team does not make it a multi-weather team, it would just be a sand team.

I know there is a better way of wording it so if anyone would like to step in help then be my guest :]

[Antar*]

Originally Posted by Fat G-Von

Multi-Weather Team

Teams will be allowed to fit multiple categories, which is why I didn't explicitly define multi-weather. I'll put this in the OP for clarity's sake.