Swampert (Analysis) (Done)

Stuff to change for Swampert's revamp can be found here.

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Status: Copyediting
QC Approvals: shrang, Harsha, jc104
GP Approvals: complete legitimacy, Jellicent
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Swampert

[Overview]

<p>Swampert has always been known to be a Pokemon that possesses good bulk, decent offensive stats, and an auspicious typing, but it still faces competition with Gastrodon and Quagsire as a defensive Pokemon with Water / Ground typing. However, Swampert still has a niche; it can still use an effective Choice Band set in OU. Due to new and more powerful threats brought by BW2, it can no longer act as an effective wall, especially when walls such as Gliscor, Hippowdon, and Slowbro are available. Nevertheless, Swampert can still be an effective Pokemon in OU if it is used with the right support.</p>

[SET]
name: Choice Band
move 1: Earthquake
move 2: Waterfall
move 3: Superpower
move 4: Ice Punch / Stone Edge
item: Choice Band
ability: Torrent
nature: Adamant
evs: 172 HP / 252 Atk / 84 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>This set utilizes Swampert's good bulk to tank hits and retaliate by hitting hard thanks to the Choice Band boost. Earthquake is its main STAB move, which hits surprisingly hard, 2HKOing standard Ferrothorn after Stealth Rock damage as well as 2HKOing Jellicent. Waterfall hits opponents such as Gliscor hard, and it can even 2HKO Skarmory in rain, which is quite a feat. Superpower is mostly used to deal with Swampert's nemesis Ferrothorn, which has a good chance of being OHKOed by it. Ice Punch lets Swampert hit opponents such as Celebi and Dragonite hard, which resist the previously mentioned moves. Stone Edge is also a good option in the final slot, allowing Swampert to hit Gyarados hard, as it resists every move on the set except for Ice Punch.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>Aqua Tail is a more powerful option than Waterfall, although Waterfall is generally preferred due to its better accuracy. The 30% flinch chance it occasionally provides can also be helpful to grab a 2HKO on opponents sitting at full health. The EV spread allows Swampert to hit as hard as possible along with an Adamant nature, while 84 Speed EVs are used to outrun minimum Speed Skarmory, allowing Swampert to 2HKO it with Waterfall in rain. The remaining EVs are placed in HP to allow Swampert to tank hits more easily. Politoed is an excellent teammate, as it can summon rain to boost the power of Waterfall. Magnezone can also be a great partner for Swampert, as it can trap and eliminate Ferrothorn and Skarmory, while being able to comfortably switch into Grass-type moves aimed at Swampert. Magnezone also benefits from rain, allowing it to use a perfectly accurate Thunder, as well as eliminating its weakness to Fire-type attacks.</p>

[Other Options]

<p>Swampert can also run a defensive set, as it has access to useful support options such as Stealth Rock, Roar, and Scald. Stealth Rock is beneficial to any team, as it weakens opponents and prevents opposing Volcarona and Dragonite from switching in at full health. Roar is useful to phaze setup sweepers Swampert might encounter, while Scald can burn opponents such as Ferrothorn, which is very useful. Swampert can also utilize a RestTalk set, although it isn't very effective in BW due to the sleep mechanics. Yawn can be used to force switches, but Roar is usually a superior support option.</p>

[Checks and Counters]

<p>Celebi can comfortably switch into Earthquake, Superpower, or Waterfall and easily take down Swampert with Giga Drain or Leaf Storm, though it must be wary of Ice Punch. Ferrothorn can switch into Waterfall or Ice Punch with ease and take down Swampert with Power Whip, although it must look out for Superpower and Earthquake. Intimidate Gyarados does a good job countering Swampert, being immune to Earthquake, resisting Waterfall and Superpower, and only being hit neutrally by Ice Punch. Thanks to Intimidate, those moves shouldn't be dealing much damage to Gyarados, although it must still look out for the occasional Stone Edge. Dragonite only has to fear Ice Punch, but it resists Waterfall and Superpower, while also being immune to Earthquake. Thanks to its titanic Defense stat, Slowbro can comfortably tank any of Swampert's moves, and is only 3HKOed by Earthquake, which is Swampert's best option against it. Finally, Amoonguss resists Waterfall and Superpower, although it is 2HKOed by both Earthquake and Ice Punch.</p>

I actually think Defensive Swampert's still quite usable in the metagame. CB is obviously better, but Swampert has such nice mixed defenses, support options and decent attacking stats let it tank relatively effectively still.

[SET]
name: Defensive
move 1: Stealth Rock
move 2: Earthquake
move 3: Scald
move 4: Roar / Avalanche
item: Leftovers
ability: Torrent
nature: Sassy
evs: 240 HP / 52 Def / 216 SpD (Someone could probably come up with a better spread)

Special Defense seems to suit Swampert more in the current metagame, letting you take on stuff like Thundurus-T a lot easier. Basically, if you're wondering why you'd use this over Gastrodon or Quagsire, the answer is simply for the extra support options. Stealth Rock is pretty nice to have, while Roar is pretty crucial. Thundurus-T can't OHKO you with anything unless it carries Grass Knot, while if you choose to use it, Avalanche will always OHKO after SR. Its access to SR, decent support options and better offenses make it more appealing than Gastrodon and Quagsire at times.

Anyway, onto the Choice Band set:
1) You're missing a nature. I presume it's going to be Adamant
2) 108 Speed is Speed creeping (outspeed 24 Spe Skarmory). I'd just say to outspeed minimum Speed Skarmory, since you're Choiced, therefore Wobb is wasting its time Encoring you anyway. 84 Speed EVs are what you need.
3) Mention that EQ can 2HKO Ferrothorn.

I'd like you to put a defensive set up there for consideration. I know you were told to remove it but not everyone agrees with Rey in this case. It would appear to have a small niche, and in my opinion pokemon will small niches should get an analysis, so long as it is properly explained. It is also Swamperts most famous set by far, and I'd guess is more common than the Choice Band set too from what I've seen.

You need to make it clear how swampert stacks up against Gastrodon, Quagsire, and Seismitoad (yes, Seismitoad), because I think the first two are better options and even the latter posseses significant advantages.

Over Seismitoad, Swampert has: Roar, Ice Beam, better defenses, better Attack, but worse Speed (for what it's worth) and no water absorb.

Over Gastrodon, Swampert has better Attack, Roar and Stealth Rock, but lacks Recover and Storm Drain

Over Quagsire, Swampert has stats, and SR, but unaware and recover are huge.

The defensive set should be something like this:

[SET]
name: Defensive
move 1: Stealth Rock
move 2: Scald
move 3: Earthquake
move 4: Ice Beam / Roar.
item: Leftovers
ability: Torrent
nature: Sassy
evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD

The spread could be physical or special. Physical is classic, but the special spread will counter Thundurus-T.

edit: shrang....

Added shrang's suggestions - thanks!

Just saying:

Jellicent completely walls the CB set, being immune to Waterfall and Superpower, resisting Ice Punch and being hit neutral by Earthquake.

Click to expand...

Being hit by a neutral Base 100 power move with STAB, which is powered by CB is not my idea of walling something. Just for the record, 252/252+ Jellicent is cleanly 2HKOed by EQ (525 Atk vs 262 Def & 404 HP (100 Base Power): 216 - 255 (53.47% - 63.12%))

shrang said:

Just saying:



Being hit by a neutral Base 100 power move with STAB, which is powered by CB is not my idea of walling something. Just for the record, 252/252+ Jellicent is cleanly 2HKOed by EQ (525 Atk vs 262 Def & 404 HP (100 Base Power): 216 - 255 (53.47% - 63.12%))

Click to expand...

OK, fixed.

Does Swampert really need to be choice banded? I would think Life Orb would work just as well, too, needing to predict less and not be easily set-up bait when being locked into EQ, etc. It does miss out on the 2HKO with Skarm after SR and Rain, but it can run Hydro Pump, which dgaf about being Adamant Nature and 0 SpA investment. LO Waterfall is still doing 42-49%, so it can still 2HKO after little residual damage or a flinch, too. Something worth considering.

Stone Edge should be slashed with Ice Punch imo.

Yes, it needs the Choice Band. It is sorely in need of both power and durability, especially considering that it's not especially compelling in either situation. I think you lose the 2HKO on Jellicent with Life Orb, which means you lose the ability to reliably beat it, and it can simply stall you out.

Life Orb is too much of a durability and power drop for something that's already hurting for both.

I second that any attacking tank Swampert should always use Choice Band over Life Orb so it doesn't hurt itself (and hits harder), very important with a slow tank that can't recover.

The main point I want to get across in this post however is that I NEVER WANT TO SEE 240 HP EVS ON A DEFENSIVE NON-BLISSEY POKEMON AGAIN! Just run 252 HP whatever you do to get the most bulk, 252 / 40 / 216 for the jump point is what I generally prefer but 252 / 4 / 252 is fine as well.

Made the EV spread change - thanks yee!

Bumping for QC approvals - Swampert needs your love :(

Sorry if I sound annoyed, but...

Jellicent walls most of the CB set, being immune to Waterfall and Superpower and resisting Ice Punch, although it is cleanly 2HKO'd by Earthquake.

Click to expand...

Did you understand what I said before? Being 2HKOed by a STAB move =/= walling the Pokemon, ever. Maybe getting 2HKOed by circumstantial coverage like Hidden Power might mean you're a decent counter, but getting 2HKOed by a STAB move means you're a horrible check. It's like saying "Magnezone walls Choice Scarf/Band Garchomp for the most part because you resist Outrage, Stone Edge, don't take too much from Fire Fang, but you get OHKOed by Earthquake". See what I mean? Can you just remove that part please?

Other than that,
[qc]1/3[/qc]

I want to appeal for the defensive set to be taken down. It was rejected in BW1 OU, and I don't think the metagame have shifted enough for it to suddenly be viable. Swampert has little merit in OU. The concept of the bulky Water is a long antiquated one, with the advent of more powerful attackers, such as Terrakion, Landorus(-T), and Thundurus-T. Swampert has neither the bulk nor longevity to justify its use in OU. Most notably, it lacks reliable recovery, which almost all Pokemon need to succeed in a defensive in OU. It's limited to walling weaker/defensive attackers such as Heatran and Tyranitar, a use that is barely worthy of note, because these are Pokemon that teams do not generally have trouble walling. It can also wall stuff like SubDDnite, but this selling point is moot: since Swampert fares mediocrely against Dragonite's other sets, you'd need a better answer to Dragonite, anyway. Swampert's other niches are Stealth Rock (OU has no shortage of Stealth Rock users) and Roar (which has a select few very situational targets).

In sum, I believe the reasons to use defensive Swampert over either Hippowdon or Gastrodon (or even Quagsire) are generally inapplicable when building a team, and for that reason, a defensive set should not be included in Swampert's analysis.

I'm sure the hypocrite card will come my way, but I do agree with Eo to a point; albeit slightly different reasons (since I find Pokemon that Gastrodon and Quagsire do poor against are being used against Swampert's reasoning for a defensive set).

In general, Swampert is horribly outclassed. Without Stealth Rock and Roar, its niches are completely shot. Quagsire has access to two great abilities in Water Absorb and Unaware (though due to Gastro's presence, Unaware is more common). Both of these Pokemon also don't lack Recover like Swampert. Even Seismitoad challenges Swampert's position. Yes, obviously, it does lack Recover, but without Roar Swampert loses its niche advantage over Seismitoad alone. Thanks to Water Absorb, it isn't trolled as much by rain spinners such as Starmie and Tentacruel, as they either have to run unordinary attacks to beat it or use Toxic (which Tentacruel does have, though Seis does have Refresh). Swampert does not enjoy the burn proc from Scald, and it certainly isn't taking STAB Hydro Pumps in the rain.

By the way, before Eo or GreatSage or who the fuck ever is saying this is another way for me to hype Seismitoad, let me be clear as a bell with this. Seismitoad having more niches than Swampert with its defensive set should be a slap to the face for defensive Swampert. And we obviously know there will never be an OU Seismitoad analysis, so why start with Defensive Swampert as is? My answer is the same as Eo's in this regard - no.

Swampert barely cut it in Generation 4 as is. Let's keep actual defensive roles to Pokemon with access to recovery and tanky roles (I honestly felt Swampert was more tankish than defensive) to Pokemon that have an extra immunity on top of it. I do think its a little ridiculous to constantly cut down a Pokemon that has access to Stealth Rock and lacks a recovery move. Obviously Heatran, Tyranitar, and Forretress to an extent lack a recovery move and it doesnt stop us from using them either. But, obviously, they're used for lore than just Stealth Rock. Considering Swampert's so-called "role", it just looks really pale in comparison. Having the lack of a water immunity is ridiculous enough as is, and why you likely will never see me use Unaware Quagsire despite having Recover.

Tl;Dr - axe the defensive set. I think its outclassed by too many Pokemon; even if we ignore its.lack of Recover as a.move.

Alright, I know I'm the one who advocated for defensive Swampert, so I think I should post here. It is a very borderline case, I will admit. Swampert IS largely outclassed by *Insert bulky support Water/Ground type*, and its only excuse is having both Stealth Rock and Roar. That said, I personally found it satisfactory when testing it, with whatever niche that I had on my team that Gastro/Quag/Seismitoad cannot fill. I found it "satisfactory", or I "gave it a pass mark", but deserving of an analysis or not, I really don't care, which is why I'm fine with it staying.

So basically, I will keep my approval as is, because defensive Swampert seems fine to me. However, this will be subject to the rest of QC. This means, while I approve of defensive Swampert, if the other QC members don't, then follow what they say.

Made the Jellicent fix, thanks for the approval.

Ok, the Choice Band set is fine, but I agree with Colonel M and Eo that defensive Swampert is out of place in this metagame. Outside of Rest, a very poor choice in the metagame because of sleep mechanics and loss of pressure, Leftovers is Swampert's only recovery option, and that's not going to cut it. You need to be able to recover to wall the powerful threats in this metagame because they're not just going to sit around and get KOed by Swampert; they'll switch out and attack again. Additionally while 100 / 90 / 90 defenses are not bad, switching into attacks really does not work too well, especially considering these are just a tad better than Terrakion's defenses. Stealth Rock can fit on nearly any team some other way and Roar is not a justifiable reason to use this over better walls, such as Gastrodon, Quagsire, and oddly enough, Seismitoad to an extent (due to Water Absorb). The defensive set is not going to be sticking around long enough to do anything relevant, and I can't justify even using it in OU. Just throw it into the OO and we can call it a day in my opinion. Aside from that, the Choice Band set looks fine, but in your EV description, 84 Speed EVs, not 72, are allotted into Speed to outspeed minimum Speed Skarmory.

QC Approved (2/3)

Thanks for the approval, Harsha! Moved Defensive set to OO and made the Speed EVs fix.

Well I'll happily approve the CB set. I'm not sure about the defensive set, but that can always be submitted at a later stage anyway.

[qc]3/3[/qc]

Thanks for the approval, jc104! I'll start writing this ASAP.

This is now ready for GP checks.

Doing this b4 Omi does(I'll just make him stamp it)

[Overview]

<p>Swampert has always been known to be a Pokemon having that possessgood bulk, decent offensive stats and an auspicious typing, but it still faces competition with Gastrodon and Quagsire as a Water / Ground defensive Pokemon. However, Swampert has a niche, aswith BW2's advent of new and more powerful threats, Swampert must now rely on a Choice Band set to be effective in OU, as it can no longer act as an effective wall, especially when walls like Gliscor, Hippowdon and Slowbro are available. Nevertheless, Swampert can still be an effective Pokemon in OU if it is aided by the right support.</p>

[SET]
name: Choice Band
move 1: Earthquake
move 2: Waterfall
move 3: Superpower
move 4: Ice Punch / Stone Edge
item: Choice Band
ability: Torrent
nature: Adamant
evs: 172 HP / 252 Atk / 84 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>This set utilizes Swampert's good bulk to tank hits and retaliate by hitting hard thanks to the Choice Band boost. Earthquake is its main STAB, doing a surprisingly decent amount of damage which hits surprisingly hard, 2HKOing a standard Ferrothorn after Stealth Rock damage and 2HKOing Jellicent. Waterfall hits opponents like Gliscor hard, and it can even 2HKO Skarmory in rain, which is quite a feat. Superpower is mostly used to deal with Swampert's nemesis, Ferrothorn, who has a good chance of being OHKO'd by that powerful attack. Ice Punch lets Swampert hit opponents like Celebi and Dragonite hard, who resist the previously mentioned moves. Stone Edge is also a good option in the final slot, allowing Swampert to hit Gyarados hard, an opponent who resists Superpower and Waterfall, while being immune to Earthquake.</p>

[Overview]

<p>Swampert has always been known to be a Pokemon thavingt possesses good bulk, decent offensive stats and an auspicious typing, but it still faces competition with Gastrodon and Quagsire as a defensive Pokemon. With BW2's advent of new and more powerful threats, Swampert must now rely on a Choice Band set to be effective in OU, as with Water / Ground typing. However, Swampert still has a niche; it can still use an effective Choice Band set in OU. Due to new and more powerful threats brought by BW2, it can no longer act as an effective wall, especially when walls likesuch as Gliscor, Hippowdon, and Slowbro are available. Noneevertheless, Swampert can still be an effective Pokemon in OU if it is aided byused with the right support.</p>

[SET]
name: Choice Band
move 1: Earthquake
move 2: Waterfall
move 3: Superpower
move 4: Ice Punch / Stone Edge
item: Choice Band
ability: Torrent
nature: Adamant
evs: 172 HP / 252 Atk / 84 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>This set utilizes Swampert's good bulk to tank hits and retaliate by hitting hard thanks to the Choice Band boost. Earthquake is its main STAB, doing a surprisingly decent amount of damage move, which hits surprisingly hard, 2HKOing a standard Ferrothorn after Stealth Rock damage ands well as 2HKOing Jellicent. Waterfall hits opponents likesuch as Gliscor hard, and it can even 2HKO Skarmory in Rrain, which is quite a feat. Superpower is mostly used to deal with Swampert's nemesis, Ferrothorn, who has a good chance of being OHKO'ed by that powerful attackit. Ice Punch lets Swampert hit opponents like Celebi and Dragonite hard, who resist the previously mentioned moves. Stone Edge is also a good option in the final slot, allowing Swampert to hit Gyarados hard, an opponent who resists Superpower and Waterfall, while being immune to Earthquakes it resists every move on the set except for Ice Punch.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>Aqua Tail is a more powerful option than Waterfall, although Waterfall is generally preferred due to its better consistenaccuracy. The 30% flinch chance it occasionally provides can also be helpful to grab a 2HKO on opponents sitting at full health. The EV spread allows Swampert to hit as hard as possible, which eases fulfilli along wits role as a hard-hitter. Thh an Adamant nature, while 84 Speed EVs are used to outrun minimum speed Skarmory, allowing Swampert to 2HKO it with Waterfall in Rrain. The remaining EVs are placed in HP to allow Swampert to tank hits more easily. An Adamant Nature is used to maximize Swampert's power. With Rain boosting Swampert's Waterfall, Politoed is an excellent teammate Politoed is an excellent teammate, as it can summon rain to boost the power of Waterfall. Magnezone can also be a great partner for Swampert, as it can trap and eliminate Ferrothorn and Skarmory, while being able to comfortably switch- into Grass-type moves aimed at (towards implies that there are multiple directions you can target, which there isn't) Swampert. Magnezone also benefits from Rrain, allowing it to use a 100%perfectly accurate Thunder, as well as weakening Fire-type moves it receiveeliminating its weakness to Fire-type attacks.</p>

[Other Options]

<p>Swampert can also run a Ddefensive set thank, as it has access to useful support options such as Stealth Rock, Roar, and Scald. Stealth Rock is really beneficial to any team, as it weakens opponents and prevents opposing Volcarona and Dragonite from switching- in at full health. Roar is useful to pHhaze set-up sweepers Swampert may encounter, while Scald can burn opponents likesuch as Ferrothorn, which is very useful. For other options, Swampert can also utilize a RestTalk set, although it isn't very effective in this genBW due to the Ssleep Mmechanics. Yawn can be used to force switches, thoughbut Roar is usually a superior support option.</p>

[Checks and Counters]

<p>Celebi can comfortably switch- into Swampert's Earthquake, Superpower or Waterfall and easily take down Swampert with Giga Drain or Leaf Storm, though it must be wary of Ice Punch. Ferrothorn can switch- into Swampert's Waterfall or Ice Punch with ease and take down Swampert with Power Whip, although it must look out for Superpower and Earthquake. Intimidate Gyarados does a good job countering Swampert, being immune to Earthquake, while resisting Waterfall and Superpower, and only being hit neutrally by Ice Punch. Thanks to Intimidate, those moves shouldn't be dealing much damage to Gyarados, although it must still look out for the occasional Stone Edge. Dragonite only has to fear Ice Punch, but it resists Waterfall and Superpower, while being immune to Earthquake. Thanks to its titanic dDefense stat, Slowbro can comfortably switch-into Ice Punch, Waterfall and Superpower, 3 moves it resistany of Swampert's moves, and is only 3HKO'ed by Earthquake, which is Swampert's best option against it. Finally, Amoonguss resists Waterfall and Superpower, although it is 2HKO'ed by both Earthquake and Ice Punch.</p>

Click to expand...

[GP]1/2[/GP]

Couple of things: rain isn't capitalized, you should always use "such as" when listing examples, and you should write KOed with an e not an apostrophe.

Thanks for the GP check, complete legitimacy! Ready for the 2nd check.

You rang?


Looks pretty good ^.^
[gp]2/2[/gp]