Donphan - Update [QC 3/3][GP WIP]

[Arcticblast]

I'll make this good, don't worry. I'm not sure if Offensive Rapid Spin deserves a slot, but people seem to use it, so...

[Overview]

okay I'm revamping the overview
- Donphan is pretty meh
- outclassed by Hippowdown, Gliscor, and Gastrodon as a defensive Ground-type and outclassed by Landorus offensively
- a meta full of special attackers and weather isn't quite kind to Donphan either

- Donphan's one niche is as a Rapid Spin user, and even here it is largely outclassed
- thankfully, its ability to check all variants of Terrakion reasonably well while not being setup fodder allow it to perform its duties

[SET]
name: Rapid Spin
move 1: Rapid Spin
move 2: Earthquake
move 3: Stealth Rock / Head Smash
move 4: Ice Shard
item: Leftovers
nature: Adamant
evs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p> This set attempts to use everything good about Donphan at once, and for such a conglomeration it does quite well. Donphan's high HP and Defense let it take physical hits that some Pokemon wouldn't even dream of. It can take Terrakion's Choice Band Close Combat, OHKO back with Earthquake, and have enough HP remaining to survive coming back in on a layer of Spikes. Rapid Spin is obviously the most important move on this set, providing rarely-seen team support. Earthquake is an obligatory STAB move, and hits incredibly hard coming off of base 120 Attack. Stealth Rock, while relatively common, is another great move on Donphan, providing the most important entry hazard in the game. Head Smash is a powerful alternative to hit Flying-types and Gengar on the switch, although it has hideous recoil. Ice Shard is a nice move to pick off weakened opponents and Dragon-types before they can hit Donphan.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
- 192 HP / 252 Atk / 64 Def, which allows Donphan to survive a +2 Close Combat (after SR) from Terrakion more than average.
- Fire Fang for Ferrothorn & Forretress who tries to use Donphan as Spikes bait. Also effective against Breloom and Scizor.
- Stone Edge for a solid coverage move without HSmash's nasty recoil.
- Assurance for hitting Gengar & Jellicent hardest if SR is up
- 128 HP / 252 Atk / 128 Spe @ LUM BERRY to outrun standard Jellicent and 2HKO specially-defensive variants. SR damage + boosted Assurance + EQ 2HKOs Jellicent. Assurance (with Rocks) or Head Smash OHKOs Gengar. Lum is nice to prevent Sableye and Jellicent from burning Donphan, allowing Donphan to 2HKO Sableye.
- 252 HP / 56 Atk / 200 Def & IMPISH Nature for a more defensive spread. Survives +2 Close Combat from Terrakion always and +2 LO CC from Lucario on more than average (after SR). 56 Atk just enough to 2HKO Landorus & Salamence with Ice Shard. Alternatively, 80 Attack EVs lets it 2HKO Haxorus with Earthquake, or 128 Attack EVs does a minimum of 50% to 252 HP Dragonite (broken Multiscale)
- Odor Sleuth for guaranteed spin even against ghosts.
-------team options---------
- Donphan's rise to OU was largely based on Sun teams - naturally it performs best on them, as its Water weakness is essentially removed
- Donphan is the only OU spinner truly vulnerable to Toxic Spikes, so it loves a way to fix that problem
- - Grounded Poison-types such as Venusaur or clerics like Heal Bell Chansey work wonders
- Jirachi is a great defensive partner - Jirachi passes Wishes and takes special blows while Donphan spins, keeps Heatran at bay and takes physical hits
- Heatran stops most Venusaur from simply blasting it with Giga Drain
- Sun sweepers in general appreciate the hazard removal - think Victini and Volcarona
- Donphan is a nice option on Rain teams as well. Despite the extra damage done by Water attacks, it can now stay in against certain Fire types
- Pokemon that can check Genesect are Donphan's favorite teammates - many of those have already been mentioned

[Other Options]

<p>Donphan gets a few other toys in addition to the set listed above. It can augment its nice Attack with a Choice Band, but then it essentially loses its niche as a user of Rapid Spin. Its physical movepool is actually pretty neat, even including Seed Bomb, which can be used to hit things like Gastrodon and Rotom-W on the switch. Its support movepool is rather nice as well. Toxic and Roar rack up residual damage and mess with many of Donphan's common switchins. Knock Off removes items - not a bad choice when facing a Choiced Pokemon or an Eviolite user. Body Slam can spread some paralysis, although this is better left to Jirachi. Counter is surprisingly good on Donphan as well; Donphan's great Defense combined with Sturdy makes it able to take on numerous physical threats&mdash;all of which fall victim to Counter.</p>

[Checks and Counters]
- Skarmory can chip away at Donphan's health and set up Spikes
- Same story for Hippodown
- Bronzong too if Donphan lacks Fire Fang
- Deoxys-D with Night Shade or even better Psycho Boost can make short work of Donphan
- Ferrothorn doesn't enjoy tanking powerful EQs but usually a safe switch-in and wins with Power Whip
- Physically defensive Jellicent can tank an EQ and burn Donphan; same for Sableye
- Gengar fears nothing from Donphan without a coverage move stronger than Ice Shard
- Gyarados and Cloyster can set up on Donphan without Head Smash or Stone Edge to threaten it
- Celebi, Tangrowth, Virizion, Breloom (LO Bullet Seed 3HKOs max HP Donphan)
- Bulky Toed, Physically defensive Gastrodon, Slowbro, Keldeo, Rotom-W
- Landorus-T Intimidates Donphan, making even Ice Shard do paltry damage
- Gliscor can take Ice Shard pretty well
- Max HP Latias
- Latios / Latias / Hydreigon / Kyurem(-B) can switch in if it doesn't switch into Stone Edge / Assurance. Special mention for Kyurem-B for ignoring Sturdy with Terravolt
- Air Balloon Heatran checks Donphan if either Sturdy is broken or Air Balloon is intact.
- Abomasnow as long as it doesn't switch into super-effective moves; negates leftovers recovery, making Sturdy harder to keep intact
- Any powerful special assault once sturdy is broken

[AccidentalGreed]

There's been an attempt at a BW2 Donphan revamp before, and it has been locked since the metagame hasn't affected Donphan much, and since Donphan itself hasn’t changed much at all. The only changes I’d consider making on SCMS are removing Knock Off, adding Ice Shard (even though it’s weak as hell on the defensive set. Still a good last resort), and just giving a mention to a few new threats.

[Pocket]

yea, Donphan doesn't need a revamp really - it's only gotten worse, lol.

orly? oops xD

[Arcticblast]

Pocket, you're the one who let me go through with it in the first place...

[Asterat]

Wait if donphan is allowed why wasn't my revamp good?

[Lavos Spawn]

You know that defensive Rapid Spin alternative EV spread listed in AC? The one that goes 252 HP / 80 Atk / 176 Def? That's actually Donphan's best EV spread. Personally, I use 248 HP / 80 Atk / 176 Def / 4 Spd to always outspeed Chanseys (that aren't speed creeping), whom Donphan dislikes.

Oh yeah, and offensive Rapid Spin is really awful and should not be getting a set in this analysis. Trust me, I used to use it extensively back in my noob days, and oh god was it terrible.

[AccidentalGreed]

It isn't. For some reason, this hasn't been removed, or people are slow to explain otherwise.

[Pocket]

In retrospect, I believe Donphan's offensive and defensive set can be merged into one set, since they are similar. Something like the following would suffice, imo:

name: Rapid Spin
move 1: Rapid Spin
move 2: Earthquake
move 3: Stealth Rock / Head Smash
move 4: Ice Shard
item: Leftovers
nature: Impish
evs: 248 HP / 80 Atk / 176 Def / 4 Spe

AC mention alternative spreads and other moves like Assurance, Stone Edge, Fire Fang, Roar etc

Thoughts?

[Princess Bri]

i agree, though just put the speed into HP since that's just speed creep

[alkinesthetase]

just out of curiosity, what are the benchmarks being hit by 80 atk EVs, or 176+ def EVs, on that spread? for what it's worth, i used to run 128 attack to 2hko 4/0 dnite with ice shard (this was on sand so offensive sets' scales were broken)

[Princess Bri]

2hko on haxorus rest in def (eq ofc).

dnite is usually gonna be hit by rocks anyways, if its not it's gonna have multiscale most of the time; seems too situational considering donphan usually isnt used in sand and dnite teams usually dont use sand

[Lavos Spawn]

Yeah Donphan is only seen on Sun and occasionally Rain, Sand has better options for hazards/spinner and doesn't like to compound its preexisting Water/Grass weakness. Use 80 Atk. And in retrospect, as Bri said, don't include the 4 Speed EVs, it's just speed creep and doesn't have a place in the analysis (though it is nice to outspeed Chansey).

Pocket, is Head Smash even used? The only Donphan set I've ever seen is the defensive SR/Shard/Spin/EQ set.

[blarajan]

How exactly is that speed creep, if the 4 Speed evs allow it to outrun min Chansey, get a Rapid Spin on Tangrowth in a pinch, and force Azumarill to use Aqua Jet instead of Waterfall?

I thought speed creep only applied to using the evs to outrun a particular set of a Pokemon, not actual benchmarks. Min base 50s is a useful benchmark for Donphan.

[alkinesthetase]

yeah i wasn't arguing for my spread, it was from a while ago and it was on a.... weird team >_> question though, what haxorus? a lot of "standard" sets (eg the ones PK posted in megathread) are 36 HP, 80 atk impish donphan deals min 148/302 which is not guaranteed 2HKO (requires 100 atk according to honkalculator). you don't need 80 to 2HKO 0HP (only need 72). either way the 80 atk benchmark seems off, it guarantees the 2HKO on 12HP haxorus or lower which afaik is not a standard hp mark for haxxy.

anyway just nitpicks since the chance to 2HKO would be pretty damn high regardless

[Princess Bri]

outspeeding ur own speed tier was always speed creep in my book!

...

---

[Jukain]

Princess Bri it's different when it's got a really big purpose for 4 EVs.

[Princess Bri]

And who's to say that the Chansey can't just throw in their extra EV in Speed too and efforts of outspeeding become de facto worthless. Fact of the matter is that it IS speed creeping and it's not a "really big purpose" since you aren't coming close to 2HKO'ing Chansey which shouldn't even matter since Speed Creeping is not wanted. Plus, who uses Tangrowth (you're going to use Priority on it anyways.. nice point?) and how would an Azumarill (who should be running 44 Speed EV's for Blissey anyways which I will propose in its update) know how many speed EV's you were using anyways unless it has already Waterfall'ed?

Allocate the Speed EV to HP and I think the one set is good :]

Also @ alka regarding 36 HP-- most Choice'd sets (most common kind from observation cba to check %'s atm) lack HP EV's and you lose a defensive benchmark which 176 provides. But idk, maybe you're right :x

[Pocket]

OK, so I talked with shrang and yee, and we more or less agreed that Donphan does not need 2 sets. Please merge the 2 sets as follows:

name: Rapid Spin
move 1: Rapid Spin
move 2: Earthquake
move 3: Stealth Rock / Head Smash
move 4: Ice Shard
item: Leftovers
nature: Adamant
evs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe

~ It needs Adamant to do any significant damage with its otherwise weak coverage move in Ice Shard
~ AC mentions:

• 192 HP / 252 Atk / 64 Def, which allows Donphan to survive a +2 Close Combat (after SR) from Terrakion more than average.
• Fire Fang for Ferrothorn & Forretress who tries to use Donphan as Spikes bait. Also effective against Breloom and Scizor.
• Stone Edge for a solid coverage move without HSmash's nasty recoil.
• Assurance for hitting Gengar & Jellicent hardest if SR is up
• 128 HP / 252 Atk / 128 Spe @ LUM BERRY to outrun standard Jellicent and 2HKO specially-defensive variants. SR damage + boosted Assurance + EQ 2HKOs Jellicent. Assurance (with Rocks) or Head Smash OHKOs Gengar. Lum is nice to prevent Sableye and Jellicent from burning Donphan, allowing Donphan to 2HKO Sableye.
• 252 HP / 56 Atk / 200 Def & IMPISH Nature for a more defensive spread. Survives +2 Close Combat from Terrakion always and +2 LO CC from Lucario on more than average (after SR). 56 Atk just enough to 2HKO Landorus & Salamence with Ice Shard.
• Odor Sleuth for guaranteed spin even against ghosts.

~ Other Options:

• Remove Rock Polish lol
• Add Toxic & Knock Off for their utility
• Counter is great on Donphan!
• Body Slam for paralysis

~ Checks & Counters:

• Skarmory can chip away at Donphan's health and set up Spikes
• Same story for Hippodown
• Bronzong too if Donphan lacks Fire Fang
• Deoxys-D with Night Shade or even better Psycho Boost can make short work of Donphan
• Ferrothorn doesn't enjoy tanking powerful EQs but usually a safe switch-in and wins with Power Whip
• Physically defensive Jellicent can tank an EQ and burn Donphan; same for Sableye
• Gengar fears nothing from Donphan without a coverage move stronger than Ice Shard
• Gyarados and Cloyster can set up on Donphan without Head Smash or Stone Edge to threaten it
• Celebi, Tangrowth, Virizion, Breloom (LO Bullet Seed 3HKOs max HP Donphan)
• Bulky Toed, Physically defensive Gastrodon, Slowbro, Keldeo, Rotom-W
• Offensive Pivot Landorus-T and Gliscor
• Max HP Latias
• Latios / Latias / Hydreigon / Kyurem(-B) can switch in if it doesn't switch into Stone Edge / Assurance. Special mention for Kyurem-B for ignoring Sturdy with Terravolt
• Air Balloon Heatran checks Donphan if either Sturdy is broken or Air Balloon is intact.
• Abomasnow as long as it doesn't switch into super-effective moves; negates leftovers recovery, making Sturdy harder to keep intact
• Any powerful special assault once sturdy is broken

[Arcticblast]

(Sorry I haven't worked much on this or Roserade by the way, I'll pick up the pace)

May I ask why 252 Adamant is needed? Ice Shard is only being used to cover rampaging Pokemon that are 4x weak to Ice (Salamence, Landorus, etc.) or weak to it with low HP. Earthquake still hits hard even with 0 Attack Impish since it's coming off of 120 Attack. Losing the defense EVs also makes it really susceptible to Terrakion and Lucario, two Pokemon it's supposed to check.

That Checks and Counters section is beautiful. The only thing about it that I'd change is a far more general Lando-T mention than just Offensive Pivot, since with Intimidate factored in even Ice Shard does paltry damage (-1 252 Adamant Donphan isn't guaranteed to KO 0/0 Lando-T after SR...). Regardless, /me steals

[Pocket]

An uninvested EQ and Ice Shard are weak beans regardless of 120 base Attack. Donphan is seen on offensive Sun teams most often, so the added power is welcome.

If you make the merge and changes I requested, I can approve this. You can save your original skeleton somewhere just in case, though

[Arcticblast]

I'll still give a defensive spread a big OO mention (more visible than AC) because of this:
252 Atk Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Donphan: 168-198 (43.75 - 51.56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Spikes

I'll make your changes when I get home.

EDIT: Made changes. If there's anything I forgot let me know; I'm working on teammates atm Done with that

[Pocket]

- Head Smash is a powerful alternative to hit Flying-types on the switch but has awful recoil

Head Smash is also useful for knocking out Gengar.

- 252 HP / 56 Atk / 200 Def & IMPISH Nature for a more defensive spread. Survives +2 Close Combat from Terrakion always and +2 LO CC from Lucario on more than average (after SR). 56 Atk just enough to 2HKO Landorus & Salamence with Ice Shard. Alternatively, 80 Attack EVs lets it 2HKO Haxorus with Earthquake, or 128 Attack EVs does a minimum of 50% to 252 HP Dragonite (broken Multiscale)

Actually this goes into AC, not OO.

Otherwise, you're good to go!

QC Approved (1/3)

Lavos, my eyes ;o

[Lavos Spawn]

QC Approved (2/3)

[Arcticblast]

FabuLavos Spawn~ you let me down with that emoticon

[shrang]

Put Forretress in Checks and Counters please. Otherwise,


QC Approved 3/3